/biz/ - Business & Finance

this is why you cash out in person via cash all these retards never learn

>>8734231
Why do you have to pay money on capital gains if you took a loss

Land of the free.

>>8734304
How do you do that?

>>8734231
>3k/yr
>life ruined

fucking pussy

>not deducting losses

god I fucking hate reddit.

A lot of tax accountants don't know what the fuck their doing with this btw and should not be trusted until we establish more of this.

>>8734231
he should get a better accountant desu

Burguers are all retards. I own about to 1.77m BRL in crypto and i never paid any tax, and i never will.

>>8734231
Now THIS is bait posting

>>8734372
he can't sell this year and apply to last year anon, he got fucked because he constantly clicked around his little poofter trading game realizing gains the whole mooning, then the year ticked over and they got set. now there is nothing he can do about it

>>8734231
This is why you do not contact anyone about crypto taxes, you leave no paper trails on your activity. At worst they have papers on you trading on Coinbase but as soon as your crypto flies into Binance or other exchanges, they have no proof you didn't throw it all into Bitconnect at 11:59 December 31st.

>>8734367
you don't

>>8734488
they don't need proof retard, you do

It begins. This is how they are going to fight crypto.

>tfw have only traded like a madman on binance
feels smart man

>he didn't just use a bitcoin ATM, cashing out 2-5k when he needs it
fucking leddit hahahaahahah

And if you fuckers think following the rules saved you then get ready for when they outlaw crypto and you are forced to give up your keys.

>>8734529
I will merely buy more privately in the massive crash that comes with that

>>8734502
They will never come after you unless you call up a fucking lawyer about owing 50k in taxes and then disappearing. No shit you are fucked if the IRS decides to knock on your door, the entire game is to avoid that situation in the first place.

If they do show up, make the calculation between paying cuck taxes for years, doing time, or --->monero and flee the country. In all honesty, its the true crypto spirit to flee the US to Thailand and fuck ladybois off your internet money gains.

>>8734231
IRS
NOW
TAXING
WOW AH
TRADES

>>8734567
>muh flee the country

You can't just fucking turn up in Thailand and they let you stay indefinitely. You would be a fucking fugitive in a 3rd would shit hole taking dicks in your ass over fucking 50 grand, you are literally the cuck in this scenario

>>8734582
They actually are. As of this year they are actually taxing your WoW gold no bullshit. Guys this is fucked up.

>>8734339
Because Murrica

>>8734635
WoW gold can be sold online, so it has value, so yes it should be taxed

>>8734603
Worth it to achieve Satoshi's vision.

And obviously I am talking about $1M+ of taxes being paid here.

>>8734654
Sure, when you cash out. Right now they are saying you have to track all of your auction house trades and report them for capital gains.

I actually think that the end result of this is going to be violence. Nobody is going to take it seriously. And the IRS is gonna flashbang babies in no knock raids for your keys.

>>8734654

If I buy a gift card for a store, then that store has a sale, so the money I bought with that gift card translates to more purchasing power, should I be taxed more?

Taxing cryptos is fucking retarded, they aren't investments they are monopoly money that other people are willing to trade goods for.

Do you faggots actually think an already understaffed and underbudgeted agency with millions in missing normal taxes is really going to dedicate a shitton of time and effort looking for your currency which may or may not be untraceable, if not extremely hard to find?

seems every time I ask this the IRS shills just vanish

>>8734850
They got more money in the tax reform bill, dummy. "Muh understaffed IRS" is a total bullshit meme, that's going to cornhole you in the ass a couple years from now.

>>8734372
You can only deduct 3k a year in losses, dummy, and then 3k a year until the losses are depleted.

But you keep thinking you know more than everyone else.

>>8734905
Please explain how the IRS is going to magically find and tax everyone's crypto trades.

I'll be waiting as long as it takes to decrypt everyone's encryption.

>>8734231
>binance reports to the IRS
top goy

>>8734956
Exactly

>>8734339
Because you had gains in 2017 and losses in 2018. Do you idiots understand how taxes work?

>>8734956
They don't have to, stupid. If you report 10k in profits to the IRS, you have to show the transaction trail - and they have the market data, so it had better line up. You can't just claim a number when it comes to crypto, or stocks - you have to show the trades, and there can't be gaps or missing steps.

It's hilarious to me this has to be explained.

>>8734978
Lots of verified accounts and those folks haven't reported. Point of crypto is to get away from the fed and taxes. Coinbase reported people making large gains and cashing out thousands. Not enough prisons to house millions of people. Trump himself owes taxes and he's the fucking president.

>>8734681
It's still not enough anon, somewhere like Seychelles will sell you immunity for 10M. You need to be into real money for this to be worth it, these types of places aren't for kiddies. If you try to retard fugitive somewhere like Thailand your best outcome is you burn through your stack in bribes, more likely they just take your money and kill you

>>8734231
I don't know what to say. It's the perfect clusterfuck of insane and confusing tax law, combined with poor idiots who want to do the right thing, but do their research way too late, and then fess up to daddy-government. How many people do you think skipped on their crypto taxes this year? We'll see what happens, but I imagine besides a few high-profile, make-an-example cases, most people will get away with it.

>>8734231
ALthough it sounds nutty people that invest in crypto currency and know what it truly is shouldn't be cashing out to begin with.

Do people who invest in stock markets try to trade it? And if so what % wise fail at that?

>>8735085
>Do people who invest in stock markets try to trade it? And if so what % wise fail at that?

Have you heard of day trading? If your broker suspects you of day trading they put special restrictions on you because they know most people will eventually fuck up and lose a ton of money.

>>8734231
>being taxed for imaginary money

LMAO

>>8735109
Looks like your imaginary went up and then down. You now owe us everything you own as well as everything you make in the future. Nice try tho.

>>8735034
The IRS doesn't jail people for the most part, unless they have proof of criminal activity, or they do specific things, like commit fraud. Not filing is a paperwork issue, and they'll just fill out your form for you, and send you the bill, when they catch up to you. Not paying is a collections issue, and they deal with that most of the time in civil courts, by lawsuit, and when they win, they garnish your paycheck, and if you don't have one, start seizing assets.
Nobody is talking about jailing people who haven't paid taxes on crypto. But if you're cashing it out to a bank account, and the bank systems detect a pattern, they WILL contact the IRS, who will send you a nice, polite letter asking where that money came from. And then the clock is ticking, for you ending up in civil court, with a judgement against you, unless you pay up.
Now, if you start playing games trying to hide crypto gains, that's entering criminal charges territory, and if they declare you to be a tax fraud, you're going to pound me in the ass prison. The number of these losers will be small, because most of the retards in this thread are larping their asses off, and either don't hold any coins, lost their asses, or made so little it's nothing to worry about.
If you keep your gains in the crypto sphere, you may just get away with it, but the minute you start cashing in significant sums (and it can be less than 10k - again, banks have apps running to look for patterns), you're on a completely different ballfield, where the IRS makes the rules, and you better play by them.
And no, nobody is converting to Monero and running off to the Phillipines, you can't get a bank account anywhere without an ID, and the odds of paying any bills without a bank account in any country is pretty fucking slim. That's pure unadulterated tough talk from a cowardly little NEET larper who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, because mommy always said how smart her little prince is.

>>8735131
good post

>>8735084
It's not confusing at all.

If you bought bitcoin, and hodl'ed, you don't owe anything until you cash out. If it's worth more than what you bought at, you owe taxes on teh difference, and if it's less, you get a write off on your taxes.
If you moved bitcoin to other coins, if you washed (same value as when you bought), you owe nothing. And again, if it's worth more, you pay taxes when you cash out or move it again, or if it's less, you have a loss to write off, when you move it.
Just record every transaction. The IRS has the charts, they can compare if they line up, and if they do, pay the taxes owed, move on with your life. If they don't, you have problems.
What, you didn't keep records? That's not the IRS's fault. You should have been keeping records anyway, IRS or not. It's nobody's fault but your own if you didn't.
You can keep crying about it not being fair, or confusing, but thems the rules. Now go do your taxes.

>>8735131
The real freedom land.

>>8734654
It violates ToS to sell it so this is a retarded argument.

>>8735190
Oh, enough with the "muh freedoms" bullshit. Every country in the G20 is the fucking same, you ignorant little shits. If you live in the first world, you pay taxes, period.

>>8735204
>Every country in the G20 is the fucking same, you ignorant little shits.
>calling others ignorant
>having no idea of tax law in other countries
No, they are not the same. Most countries do not tax crypto to crypto, US, UK, Canada, and Australia are exceptions.

>>8735131
That's all I've read and seen is people that cashed out large enough amounts that it set off the banks. The right thing by law is to report. Point blank. Income wise, if you make next to nothing you don't owe any taxes.

>Made so little it's nothing to worry about.
I'm one of them. Less than a g in crypto down to a couple of hundred. Probably had 5 or 6 realized gains which were insignificant to the losses. The bubble popped and another 1000% moon won't happen any time soon for bitcoin.

a. Recognize the threat
b. Understand the strength of the enemy
c. Play the Cartel’s cards
d. Protect your capital now
>e. Buy Bitcoin DAMN cheap later

Smart people will stop buying crypto right now and wait for the big dip.

>>8734850
they will go after people just to make an example of them

>>8735131
How old are you? You sound like some 20 year old college kid high off his own farts. I know five expats living in the Philippines, its quite easy to get residency there.

>>8735172
>If you moved bitcoin to other coins
this is a taxable event. if you bought BTC for 1k and then traded it at 10k for an alt, you made a 9k in short term capital gains

what a fucking retard
>self-reported

>>8734918
>>8734453
>>>>>self-reported

>>8734231
S

>>8735287
Top kek. If you are dumb enough to report yourself at least cash out the tax money at your ath.

>>8735280
How though? You're trading one kind of property or commodity for another of equal value, at the time. If and when you cash those altcoins out, I can understand being taxed then.

>>8735398
mfw this literal retard is reporting himself as owing more tax than his current portfolio value
lmfao

jesus christ, now I know why it's so easy to make money

>>8735294
don't really know what the fuck you're talking about

>>8735433
OP's post is in reference to some dumbfuck who in theory owes more in tax than his portfolio is worth but in practice is reporting himself

don't fuck with the IRS, just pay your god damn taxes

>>8735406
FMV is still higher than what you originally bought at. I agree that its retarded but that's what the law is in the US.

>>8735406
because the tax event occurs when you dispose of the asset, whether you traded it for a dollar, a tron or a lambo it was still disposed of. they aren't just going to let you avoid tax because you didn't go via american dollars anon

>>8734231
Holy shit americans.
Holy fucking shit americans.
Americans holy shit.

Like how do you mutts talk shit to other countries when you get jewed, cucked and kiked so hard..........?

>>8735438
he's a dumbfuck for ignoring the implications until it was too late, if he literally did not even think he might owe tax on profits he is clearly not capable of evading tax properly. in fact anybody who's plan is to merely do nothing is almost as dumb of a fuck

>>8735495
or, you know, you could just not report yourself

>>8735499
That'll work, until you cash out any significant amounts. Then you have to show the paperwork.

Just pay your taxes.

>>8735524
then you can just pay capital gains tax at a 0 cost basis which sucks but is fine. unless you wanna claim a cost basis which means filing an amendment or series of amendments in the worst case

tl;dr the guy OP is describing is a fucking retard

>>8734231
cashing out to your bank account is what sends a red flag to the IRS. So if he hasn't done that then he is volunteering for tax rape.

Why the fuck would he report his trades to the IRS if he hasn't withdrawn cash to his bank acocunt.

>>8735495
>post yfw by the time you plan on cashing out a taxable amount of BTC the USA is done for and the IRS is defunct and cryptobanks are worldwide

>>8735546
even if he is his maximum liability in the eyes of the IRS is short-term capital gains with a cost basis of 0, meaning no matter how you cut the cake, he's volunteering for rape

>>8735534
So what, you just found the bit coins?

>>8735554
Who gives a shit? Do you really think the IRS or anyone can prove anything related to any of this? It's old mining gains you found for all they know. Who cares? They're not going to audit the blockchain and subpoena a bunch of Pajeet exchanges to prove you owe more than you do on your tiny ass gains.

People are fucking stupid, I swear to god

>>8735554
The IRS isn't going to care anywhere near as much as you NEETs thing, people are far more afraid of the IRS than they should be. They are the dregs of the accounting world which is why their auditors are taking $40k-$60k in some shitty government job instead of making far more in the private sector, they couldn't cut it.

>do all your trading on foreign exchanges

How are they going to tax you now?

>>8735563
They don't need to fucking prove anything

>>8735464
That makes more sense, but shouldn't it be a sales tax of some sort then? Do I have to pay tax if I trade my car for my friends car of equal value? Not disagreeing, I just want to understand.

>>8735452
This rustles my Jonathans to a severe degree

>>8735577
You are right, most small time NEETs they won't give a shit. But you have goys here who literally believe they are the early adapter and will become millionaires, yet also don't seem to think there will be a problem when they want to access their millions

>>8735592
If the fair market value of your car had increased then yes that would be a capital gain, the reason this isn't something anyone ever has to worry about is because cars are generally sold for less money

>>8735581
>They don't need to fucking prove anything
I don't think you understand how this works. You're right in that they can just send you a bill for the maximum liability that they're aware of... which is short-term capital gains at a 0 cost basis, dummy. They don't know shit about your trades until you report yourself. t. OP's dumbshit

>>8735608
Ah, so you've obtained a new asset that's worth more than what your original asset was worth. That makes sense. It's silly but I suppose it is logical. If imagine it's probably difficult to enforce for things that aren't actually assigned a hard, numeric market value like crypto has.

>>8735593
He is saying that he's going to pay taxes as if his cost basis is 0 when he eventually cashes out. The IRS is not going to pour a ton of man hours into attempting to extract more than the maximum amount that he could have ever owed.

I'll humor you for a minute just to illustrate precisely why they wouldn't. Let's say that they try to go backwards and find times where he realized gains at a lower level. The tax owed on these transactions would actually be lower because it would have been worth less at the time and his tax bracket would have been less. While some would be recouped in the interest it would likely be less than the amount they'd get by him paying at the highest marginal tax rate on the full amount. It does not make sense from either a resource or revenue point of view.

>>8734370
3k a year, which should be cancelled out by the 3k in losses he's carrying forward every year. Lmao, why is he bitching? This guy has the worst fucking tax attorney.

>>8735553
what a fucking soyboy faggot. reddit users are beyond saving.

>>8735675
he's probably just a cuck dumbass who can't be bothered to learn the rules and think outside the box

>>8735680
He's following the rules, he's just a dumbass for doing so.

>>8735644
This. Anyone paying capital gains at 0 cost basis is literally overpaying in the long run. There's no chance the IRS is going to go after someone just to find out that they're overpaying. Not to mention that they LITERALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR TRADES HOLY FUCK

>>8735690
He's following the rules to the letter of the law including inference based on precedent, it's absolutely fucking retarded

>>8735697
>LITERALLY DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR TRADES HOLY FUCK
Annnd whats stopping the IRS from just getting the trades from coinbase retard.

>>8735644
OK so what the fuck is the point of doing this? It can only cost more money

>>8735707
the specifics matter here. for one thing, are you trading exclusively on coinbase? if so your maximum tax liability is, AGAIN, 0 cost basis short-term capital gains, aka income tax

tl;dr: fuck you idiot

>owe 50k
>on money that never existed
>have to create a repayment plan
>with fucking INTEREST in top
>interest on money that never even fucking existed

Holy shit the absolute state of jewery here. they're milking you goyim right from your ball sack.

>>8734729
kek
the IRS is like 10 dudes and a bunch of computers

>>8735712
The scenario in the OP is a perfect reason why one would do this.

>>8735716
>IRS: hmm anon sent 1k to coinbase and ended up with 30k gee how did this happen
>let me just call and look at those trades...

>>8735697
he probably believes it will help balance the scales against his white privilege. what a fucking cuck.

>>8735729
>baseless assumptions
lol do what you want, retard
I literally don't give a single fuck if you report yourself and get raped

>>8735028
>the IRS has time to go one by one through billions of trades to verify they check out
thats where youre wrong friendo

>>8735707
no one trades on coinbase. at best, he would have traded on gdax. And the IRS isn't going to know about those trades unless they supbena the entire customer base and do a mass audit of all gdax customers.

>>8735729
>>8735738
btw here's how it works in real life as opposed to cuckhold fantasy land:

>coinbase sends IRS 1099
>IRS sees 1099 and line audits your finances IRL
>maximum liability is income tax on the total figure on the 1099
>meanwhile redditards and this idiot are reporting their own trades on binance and bittrex
tl;dr: kill yourself

>>8735754
don't bother trying to explain this to people who are programmed to suck cocks as if it's breathing air

>>8735752
They don't need the billions of trades, only the debits, credits and balances, it's fucking easy

>they hate us because of our freedoms

>>8735754
You really think the IRS lacks the power to obtain any given person's trading history from GDAX or any other American exchange? Coinbase and Gemini would bend over backwards for the IRS, subpoena or not. They have no spine.

>>8735764
and the end result is... *drumroll*... income tax on the total (aka short-term capital gains with a cost basis of zero)

but hey let's report our own trades and tell the IRS we owe them $50k on our $20k portfolio, surely they'll dispute that

LOL

>>8735768
>You really think the IRS lacks the power to obtain any given person's trading history from GDAX or any other American exchange? Coinbase and Gemini would bend over backwards for the IRS, subpoena or not. They have no spine.
Because everyone stores their gains on coinbase and gemini.

Goddamn I hope you're getting paid your G17 or whatever it is for this shitty shilling. Someday you'll make it.

>>8735768
>You really think the IRS lacks the power to obtain any given person's trading history from GDAX or any other American exchange?
I'm not arguing they don't have this power. they do have this power. but they can only enforce this power if you out yourself on your tax return like OP. So here's a better question, how fucking retarded do you think your not? Because you are.

>Coinbase and Gemini would bend over backwards for the IRS, subpoena or not. They have no spine.
I agree, but the IRS needs a name and Social number first. They don;t have that name and social number unless you are boy scout and tells the honests truths like our cuck boy OP.

fucking retards, the lot of yous

>>8734231
How do you make enough money to owe 50k in taxes, and have ABSOLUTELY NO money to pay that off. I have a feeling this idiot made 200k and bought a used lambs or some shit.

Losing your keys is a very viable alternative to all of this by the way.

>>8735762
based

>>8735828
all this bullshit is just 4d trolling trying to scare neets who dont actually know how the tax system works

>>8735818
Boating accident sir
I got pajeeted/chink'd/insert hacker group name here
'Huh? Damn, wish i could've cashed them out myself. This sucks.'

>>8735803
>because I'm smart and capable means this redditor and the majority of amerifats are too

You're a special type of moron. Like a smart moron that's totally unaware of everything going on around her. Kys.

>>8735810
Brother, you can try 100 different ways of getting around the IRS, and half of them will probably work for a while. But unless you plan on staying fiat poor, the IRS can and likely will begin sniffing.

Wait, if you lost your keys at the height of your coins value from a hard drive crash you can report that as loses right?

>>8735846
that's my impression. good theory. the amount and quality of fud against crypto is getting ridiculous.

the other day, I was hanging out with a group of three close friends. one of them asked me if I knew there was child porn embedded in the bitcoin blockchain. unironically. the amount of cringe is unbearable, I need new friends.

>>8735852
>Brother, you can try 100 different ways of getting around the IRS, and half of them will probably work for a while. But unless you plan on staying fiat poor, the IRS can and likely will begin sniffing.
The point I'm making is that the guy described in the OP is going out of his way to pay more than he owes according to the IRS at this point in time by interpreting the rules in the least favorable way possible. I'm literally suggesting just paying the maximum according to what current rules/regulations will actually require in real life—the guy in the OP is *voluntarily* overpaying. lol

>>8735813
He realized gains trading crypto to crypto at the top but never actually cashed any money out. Then he lost nearly all of it due to the bear market so his portfolio is worth a tiny fraction of what it was in December. If you traded alts and didn't cash out some in December or January to cover taxes then you end up absolutely fucked if you try to do things by the book since the market as a whole has lost 80%.

>>8735846
>all this bullshit is just 4d trolling trying to scare neets who dont actually know how the tax system works
This, 100%

Stop paying taxes ffs you dummies love getting cucked by daddy govt I swear

another reddit success story

>>8735874
>if you try to do things by the book
(which is totally voluntarily and unnecessary)

>>8735852
you have no idea how many cash out options are out there now for crypto. you dont even need cash anymore. gift cards are easy to come by for crypto. you have no idea how fucked the tax man is when it comes to keeping track of what people do with their cryptocurrency.

>>8735852
>But unless you plan on staying fiat poor, the IRS can and likely will begin sniffing.

I am 100% cool with this actually.

>>8735892
this, amazon giftcards do more money laundering than cash or crypto and they get a free pass

>>8735863
you can try, but they will likely want evidence if its a very large amount.

The more tax you pay on crypto the more ways they will come up with to drain you

Just stop paying

It's fucking easy

There are plenty of ways of getting this money without the IRS ever smelling it

If you pay taxes for crypto you are fucking cattle and shouldn't be trading

To any spooked NEETs ITT: the IRS does not want to put you in prison, they just want you to pay them. They literally state on their website that if you're a drug dealer you should claim that on your tax returns and pay taxes on your drug income. They don't give a shit—they just want your money.

That's step 1. Step 2 is the realization that the max you owe is income tax on whatever you brought into your bank account. They are not gonna randomly dig into your trade history or whatever else these cucks ITT imagine in their retarded BDSM power trip fantasies.

So don't report yourself, dipshit.

>>8735903
this, a swear amazon is just a cover for some shady money laundering/drug smuggling operations, since they have the largest distribution network in north America. guaranteed, cartels are infiltrating that supply chain somehow.

>>8735852

>>8735892
>>8735894
>there's literally 30 fucking bitcoin atms around my city at a 5 grand limit a day

Crypto will inevitably replace fiat. I am not giving a shit about fiat in the long term. The IRS and the US will be completely gone by the time worldwide adoption does occur.

They cannot fucking track it, they can't fucking control it and that's why things like the OP pic are most likely shill fakes.
If you think its scary now kikes oh boy you're in for a treat.

>>8735726
OK yeah sorry was thinking in terms of an actual ongoing strategy. Sure OP pic could try this and hope, with reasonably good odds that he doesn't get caught. If he did his ignorance supported by being poor might keep him off the hook for any penalties anyway

>>8735908
>If you pay taxes for crypto you are fucking cattle and shouldn't be trading
The only issue I take with this is that to reinvest after cashing out you need to pay tax

otherwise you are right

>>8735903
>>8735936
>this, a swear amazon is just a cover for some shady money laundering/drug smuggling operations
You guys see that lady that had 300,000 fucking oxy pills show up in her amazon order?

I swear that few things get me more triggered than taxpayers, fear of IRS, etc

I'm 120% triggered rn

Can someone give me the simplest method of cashing out if I were you take out a large lump sum of say 5MM sometime down the road? I started trading at CB but have since moved all my BTC/ETH from there ages ago, used Polo and Bittrex (the latter not even having the majority of my trades, just a jumbled ass spreadsheet with partial trades, no values, and no dates) and am now on Binance. I don't have a ridiculous amount of trades but they're all jumbled around. Could I just pay long term capital gains tax and be done with it or will the IRS think I'm a fucking criminal and come after me because of the high amount?

>>8735906
evidence I lost my keys? No transactions on wallet since the time of loss == evidence. What are they going to fucking say I need to prove the universe exists?

>>8735948
>OK yeah sorry was thinking in terms of an actual ongoing strategy. Sure OP pic could try this and hope, with reasonably good odds that he doesn't get caught. If he did his ignorance supported by being poor might keep him off the hook for any penalties anyway
Technically, in the long run, OP would be on the hook for some back taxes. Big fucking deal. EVEN IF he decides to pay those taxes, that is 100% better than being on the hook for self-reported tax liability of 50k on a fucking 20k portfolio.
See also:
>>8735908
>If you pay taxes for crypto you are fucking cattle and shouldn't be trading

>>8735961
>evidence I lost my keys? No transactions on wallet since the time of loss == evidence. What are they going to fucking say I need to prove the universe exists?
the mistake you're making is this idea that you need to acknowledge your crypto in the first place.

No 1099 = no problem

>>8735955
just looked it up, thats amazing and not surprising

i wonder how many bullshit listings are out there and how much the dollar value of money laundering is per annum

>>8735948
>OK yeah sorry was thinking in terms of an actual ongoing strategy.
Yeah, I'm reporting my taxes along the way because I believe I'll come out ahead in the longrun. I figured out my taxes on Jan. 1st and cashed out enough to pay them then. People talk about Amazon gift cards which I suppose is fine if you're only dealing with a few thousand dollars but I still have around $60k in crypto with another $150k waiting to buy the bottom, I'd rather sleep easily and be able to buy whatever I want without playing any bullshitting games.

>>8735988
This is fine if you are a normie and plan on reinvesting fiat into something else. In the case of the example in the OP, it's just sickening cuckholdry.

>>8735939
>If you think its scary now kikes oh boy you're in for a treat.

The Jews have never stereotypical been Technocrats. They have always been good with legalize. This is actually something to watch out for as law will eventually be automated under a technocratic society.

>>8735959
No you won't merely be able to choose to pay at the discounted long term rate, you will need your trades in proper order or you can expect the short term rate, at which point you will go back and sort out an even bigger fucking mess to try and get the best possible outcome for yourself. It will take you a fucking day or two to get it all sorted

>>8735959
>Can someone give me the simplest method of cashing out if I were you take out a large lump sum of say 5MM sometime down the road?

This thought occurred to me, what is stopping anybody from moving their stuff to an overseas exchange (>implyign coinbase or other cuckoldry) and then cashing out to a high risk account/tax haven country/etc?
Then move the fiat back into the US if you want to stay there, paying whatever according fees that would probably been less than what they would try to grab your crypto for.
>just laundry thoughts

>>8735959
if your at 5M then get a lawyer for some kind of one off payment to be negotiated with the tax man.

>>8735959
>Can someone give me the simplest method of cashing out if I were you take out a large lump sum of say 5MM sometime down the road
pay a tax attorney.

>>8736012
There's literally nothing stopping anyone from hiding their entire crypto portfolio from the IRS at this point. The issue comes with cashing out as your bank will file a bunch of CTRs and SARs the second you start cashing out that 5 million or however much. If you don't need to do that, there's literally no reason to report anything whatsoever

>>8736012
>>8736038
A lot of people ITT seem to think that we're living out the plot of Minority Report. We're not. The IRS doesn't know shit until you or someone else (your bank) tells them. You people need to get a fucking clue.

>>8736008
>In the case of the example in the OP, it's just sickening cuckholdry.
Yes, I've stated that I think he's an idiot for doing things by the book when he's in this situation.

>>8736050
congrats on your gains

>>8736038
>The issue comes with cashing out as your bank will file a bunch of CTRs and SARs the second you start cashing out that 5 million or however much.
That's why I mentioned overseas accounts and tax haven countries. If someone does need to do that much, they should take it overseas.

People launder real money all the time and crypto is even easier and harder to track. The IRS doesn't possess the power to do this or the ability to begin to look into everyone's shit.

>>8736053
Thanks, everyone who doesn't give in to the fear of this bear cycle will make it though. Crypto is most definitely not dead.

>>8736079
>That's why I mentioned overseas accounts and tax haven countries. If someone does need to do that much, they should take it overseas.
Right, and this can be done after the fact, if you don't fucking REPORT YOURSELF in the mean time, lmao
>guy in the OP

>>8735966
I see no reason why crypto profits shouldn't be taxable. Mostly what I see boils down to what is typical of grub poors who think they deserve not to pay as gibs

>>8736106
Income should not be taxed at all.

>>8736106
Crypto to crypto trades should not be a taxable event as technically there has been no profit if the profit is determined by cashing out to fiat.

>>8736106
To break this down for autists ITT:

Technically, following the letter of the law and basing your decisions on the most conservative inference possible, every single trade is a taxable event (capital gain or loss)

However, IRL, the maximum the IRS will ever pursue you for is essentially income tax on the full value of the amount that you cashed out

So if you report yourself in a scenario like that of the OP, you are fucking stupid. It's really that simple

>>8736134
>Crypto to crypto trades should not be a taxable event as technically there has been no profit if the profit is determined by cashing out to fiat.
Yeah but they are according to the law. Whether you choose to REPORT YOURSELF or not is up to you. (lmao) see also >>8736164

>>8736011
I apologize, I meant to say pay the SHORT TERM capital gains tax and be done with it. In which case could I just pay my regular income tax on the amount? Bear with me but from your response i'm understanding that if i went the short term route I may as well just get all the trades together because i'd probably end up paying less? Sorry for the brainlet response but I haven't really delved into all this properly yet.

>>8736015
>>8736017
Also what I was thinking. My portfolio is certainly not worth that much (currently about 100k, ath 300k) but after some diversification the last couple months I'm just speaking in hypotheticals in case we do get another bull run and it becomes worth that much. The attorney thing worries me though because I don't want to tell ANYONE in person until i'm fully sure what all my personal options are, and certainly before I get lawyers involved

>>8736038
>>8736048
Yea, the trades and money I've made hasn't been told to anyone, much less the government. I wouldn't dream of getting unnecessarily jammed up like that. I was just wondering in case of a future large sum cash out.

>>8736171
>Whether you choose to REPORT YOURSELF or not is up to you
Yeah I wasn't surprised that it is a reddit post

>>8736106
cuck

>>8736191
Here are your options:

1) pay a tax attorney or a good CPA. These people will fleece you and charge you a bunch of money to follow every single trade you've ever made and determine your cost basis for everything. You can then use this and carry it forward to coming years, deducting a capital loss of 3k per year if applicable.
2) pay short term capital gains with a cost basis of zero on what you cashed out, then evade taxes on the rest
optional 2b) file amendments for previous years

These are the realistic choices for most peopl

>>8736125
Well then move somewhere that it isn't
>>8736134
You were obviously never going to get that loophole, it's a nice idea but unrealistic

>>8736231
>>8736191
I should note that scenario 1 is only worthwhile if you're cashing out a life-changing amount. If you're a NEET and you want to buy a house or a business, or you're one of the lucky few who made actual millions, just go with option 1.

Very simple

>>8735201
We need to add a TOS to bitcoin that bans selling that nobody follows and fix this then.

>>8736234
>Well then move somewhere that it isn't
I would bet that there are things in the law that you don't agree with.

>>8736191
Unless you're in the maximum bracket already I don't see the point of not paying incrementally annually. If you get all your trades together at least for yourself it might help you pay less, but you won't be paying more. If accountants fees are worth it you can speak to one, do as much as you can to have it all in order first so they don't charge you for them to have to fuck around with any of that

>>8736252
Ok so what if someone makes millions but not until let's say, 2020-2022, in the meantime just trading occasionally and reporting absolutely nothing. If they went with the lawyer would he/she have to obtain every single one of your trades over the past 5-6 years? And in that case would the IRS just take the back payment and call it a day? I've always had the notion the IRS doesn't give a fuck unless it's big money or they get theirs in the end so I'm wondering if it makes sense to get a CPA or tax attorney involved at all until a cash out.

>>8734231

God fucking damn.

He's an idiot..to the point I legitamently feel bad.

First off did he self report? Or did he not do it and he's just trying to pay?

Second he sold before June..fuck..he just had to hold for a little over a month and a half for major gains.

Damn.

>>8736263
>We need to add a TOS to bitcoin that bans selling that nobody follows and fix this then.
>that nobody follows
The vast majority of MMO players do not engage in selling in game currency for real money. We're talking probably under 5% who ever do.

I had around $72,000 at the peak a couple of months ago, but now I only have around $4,200. I didn't pay any taxes. Am I fucked?

>>8736191
>I apologize, I meant to say pay the SHORT TERM capital gains tax and be done with it. In which case could I just pay my regular income tax on the amount? Bear with me but from your response i'm understanding that if i went the short term route I may as well just get all the trades together because i'd probably end up paying less? Sorry for the brainlet response but I haven't really delved into all this properly yet.
>>8736252
To be clear, paying short-term capital gains with a cost basis of 0 (equivalent to income tax) means that you are most likely technically overpaying in the long run. In the short term, it can be beneficial in the sense that you may be in a similar situation to that of the guy in the OP—you might owe capital gains on a bunch of trades you made during the peak despite the fact that your portfolio is worth a small amount, and you can only carry a capital loss forward for a maximum amount of 3k per year after this year... so, if you're in that situation, it may be beneficial to simply not report yourself (duh). It's up to you.

>>8736332
Depends on the exact amounts. Worst case scenario you will owe back taxes + penalties and fees. I think in the absolute worst case scenario these fees will double your tax liability in the long run but don't quote me on that (ask a tax professional).

The bottom line is that paying short-term capital gains means you are paying the maximum you could possibly owe ever (net) in the long run, and unless the IRS starts literally proactively going on fishing expeditions and doing blockchain audits of NEETs, they will NEVER know about your trades, so it's up to you to determine whether or not you want to pay now and have reduced liability in the future or pay later and maybe overpay a bit while avoiding getting raped in the short term.

>tfw I only have to pay for actual profit when cashing out
>and since I'm down 50% I can write it off on taxes if I sold now since it won't count until next year anyway
Norway is great.

>>8736365
>I had around $72,000 at the peak a couple of months ago, but now I only have around $4,200. I didn't pay any taxes. Am I fucked?
Did you receive a 1099? Did you cash out more than 10k at once? If you answer no to both of these, there's a 99% chance the IRS will never give a single shit about you if you never report anything related to crypto ever.

>>8734304
You're fucking retarded if you think that you can get large amounts of money off an exchange and into a bank account without the feds catching wind or without it getting stolen.

Making small deposits to your bank to avoid federal reporting requirements is called structuring and they WILL catch you. Its illegal.
Reputable exchanges report transactions to the feds. Good luck using methods where the exchange isn't reporting to the fed as they'll find a way to just steal your money as at that point you are literally dealing with organized crime.

>>8736365
Where did you do most of your trading and did you verify your identity there?

>>8736371
>Norway is great.
Enjoy your muslims

>>8736286
Sure is, and maybe I will even move to avoid taxes

Based trump making sure you losers have to contribute to our vault. Get fucked neets.

>>8736368
And to follow up a bit, the entire point of tax reporting is basically to claim deductions. The IRS can just send you a bill if they get a whiff of your income and they'll litearlly do that. "We see that Bob Smith had $40k in deposits in 2016 so he owes us 40% of that."

They're not gonna randomly check your exchange accounts... but they're also not going to assume that your mining rig expenses are deducted either.

So tldr the whole point of filing taxes on this is to 1) protect yourself and 2) take deductions

>>8736368
Understood. I appreciate the help anon

>>8736375
I did not receive a 1099, nor have I cashed out more than $10k at once. I did take out $500 to pay for rent one time though.
>>8736392
Bittrex & Binance, and yes.

>>8736394
Yes, those 5% of Muslims, most who are third gen and secular is exactly like being a 56%er. Stay jelly, BigMc

>>8736412
Another tip, just spitballing from memory (ask a tax professional!): If you file the wrong amount (short term capital gains with cost basis fo 0, or just whatever you feel like claiming) and the IRS doesn't dispute it, that has a statute of limitations of a few years, I think 3. If you don't file at all and it can be demonstrated that you intentionally evaded taxes, there is no statute of limitations nad you can be prosecuted a year from now or when you're 95 years old and on your death bed.

>>8736397
Telling someone to move because they dislike a law ignores the fact that laws are changeable and that without people voicing their problems with laws they cannot change in the direction you would want them to. The issue with taxation is that it encourages large government and governments are incredibly inefficient with resources as they are in a noncompetitive environment which leads to large amounts of waste. If it was instead solely reliant on other methods of revenue the government would necessarily be much smaller which would eliminate much of the bureaucracy.

>>8736426
>I did not receive a 1099, nor have I cashed out more than $10k at once. I did take out $500 to pay for rent one time though.
>>8736426
>Bittrex & Binance, and yes.


So here's the rundown anon:

The IRS doesn't know shit about you. They don't know about your crypto or your trades. There's a small chance that your bank filed what's called an SAR (suspicious activity report). IF they did this, there's a good chance that it got lumped in with the millions of other SARs that get filed every year that nobody ever looks at. Bottom line in that case: literally nothing happens.

You can probably simply not file anything and nobody will ever give oyu a second glance.

If you have regular employment, pay taxes on your W2 and go about your business as usual.

>>8736447
Ah damn that's reassuring....hopefully I can just make it by EOY and be done with it lmao

>>8736469
>>8736426
I forgot to mention: you will only get a 1099 according to current laws if you exceeded $20k USD in any one transaction and/or 200 total transactions. My understanding is that this applies not just to coinbase but to sales on eBay, amazon, that kind of thing.

So if they ever go back and look at old records in the future, they'll have to amend the laws for all of these, not just coinbase specifically.

Therefore... just don't file anything related to crypto and the IRS will never even notice. It's really that simple.

If you're a cuckold and you enjoy pain, tell the IRS all about your ATH and pay a bunch of taxes on that. Have fun.

>>8736478
>Ah damn that's reassuring....hopefully I can just make it by EOY and be done with it lmao
Yeah, that's the most reasonable perspective right now IMO. Frankly most people can just file an amendment later on and that'll be enough.

To reiterate: The IRS doesn't want to put anyone in prison. They just want your money.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/news/economy/illegal-income-tax/index.html

>>8736426
>>8736469
You're underestating his risk exposure a bit. Remember that the IRS did subpoena all records of everyone on coinbase for a few years ago who had over $20k(IIRC) in trading volume. If they do that again with bittrex and binance he could have a problem since he did verify. That said, he would still be better served to not file this year and hope that it goes up(which it almost certainly will before they would catch it) instead of cashing out a tiny amount that would only cover part of what he owes.

>>8735592
I personally know people who have gotten fucked for flipping cars and not reporting the profit

>>8736469
>>8736491
Thanks desu, I'll keep your comments in mind. I'll have to triple check with other sources to ease my worries though.

>>8736502
>You're underestating his risk exposure a bit. Remember that the IRS did subpoena all records of everyone on coinbase for a few years ago who had over $20k(IIRC) in trading volume. If they do that again with bittrex and binance he could have a problem since he did verify. That said, he would still be better served to not file this year and hope that it goes up(which it almost certainly will before they would catch it) instead of cashing out a tiny amount that would only cover part of what he owes.
I'm taking it on faith that what you're saying is true because personally I recall that being different—I think it was 20k in any ONE transaction and/or 200 txs total, which is different than 20k total volume/

But assumign you are correct, then the IRS will just send him a big fat bill for income tax on the total he cashed out with a cost basis of zero plus interest, fees, and penalties.

It's not like they're going to just put him in pound-you-in-the-ass prison immediately.

Therefore, the actual upside to not reporting far outweighs the downside, and he's got a very significant amount of time to file amendments or come up with a better game plan in the interim

>>8735725
With over a million dollars of funding every year just for guns and ammunition, sure.

>>8736512
bottom line is this:
any tax document sent to you is also sent to the IRS

if you received no tax documents, the IRS received no tax documents (barring clerical errors)

this means that basically they don't give a shit about you and your (lack of) gains.

>>8735756
have you seen the 1099 that coinbase sends out? income tax on the gross proceeds for mine would be 10x my actual profit. at almost twice the tax rate, due to the amount. so i would owe over 15x what I actually owe.

>>8736560
>have you seen the 1099 that coinbase sends out? income tax on the gross proceeds for mine would be 10x my actual profit. at almost twice the tax rate, due to the amount. so i would owe over 15x what I actually owe.
That's where a CPA comes in, you demonstrate your cost basis and trades (capital gain/loss which establishes cost basis for the next in the sequence)

so if you got a 1099, go get yourself an accountant.

Yeah i might be down 6k$ right now, but at least im not this goy. Thank fuck i didnt have more money in december to put in the market.

>>8736524
>But assumign you are correct, then the IRS will just send him a big fat bill for income tax on the total he cashed out with a cost basis of zero plus interest, fees, and penalties.
They'd send it on all realized gains if they actually do get the records on him from the exchange. Still agree that there's more upside for him in not reporting and doing an amendment down the road. He could probably get by with acting as if he was ignorant about crypto to crypto being taxable in 2017 to try to avoid fraud penalties if they actually audited him since so many sources were saying that like kind treatment was still available and most people are unaware that you still need to file forms for each trade even if you're attempting to use like kind.

>>8736560
>>8736571
And to any lurkers ITT I should note that the entire point of filing taxes with a CPA is to demonstrate cost basis thus reducing your liability. Again, the entire point of this is to reduce your liability.

>>8736578
>They'd send it on all realized gains if they actually do get the records on him from the exchange. Still agree that there's more upside for him in not reporting and doing an amendment down the road. He could probably get by with acting as if he was ignorant about crypto to crypto being taxable in 2017 to try to avoid fraud penalties if they actually audited him since so many sources were saying that like kind treatment was still available and most people are unaware that you still need to file forms for each trade even if you're attempting to use like kind.
Like kind is something that requires a compeltely separate form and requires just as much accounting as determining p/l for every single trade. The whole like kind thing is just bullshit IMO and will only fly for 2017 at best and at worst won't work at all.

And for them to get the records from the exchange they have to have a reason to do that in the first place. Without him reporting, there's literally nothing, outside of an essentially random fishing expedition, that would prompt them to do that.

So again, not filing (or, in the case of the OP guy, filing short-term capital gains with a cost basis of 0) is the best option

>>8736597
>Without him reporting, there's literally nothing, outside of an essentially random fishing expedition, that would prompt them to do that.
*unless you have cashed out $10k or more in any single transaction or your bank has filed multiple SARs on you, which changes things a bit

DYOR

>>8736597
>Like kind is something that requires a compeltely separate form and requires just as much accounting as determining p/l for every single trade. The whole like kind thing is just bullshit IMO and will only fly for 2017 at best and at worst won't work at all.
Correct. My point is that as it is well known that there are so many novice investors in this space who do not understand this they would likely let it fly so that he would not get hit with fraud penalties and would instead only owe back tax.
>Without him reporting, there's literally nothing, outside of an essentially random fishing expedition, that would prompt them to do that.
I think a fishing expedition is likely considering the massive volume in 2017 and that we already have precedent of them doing a fishing expedition with coinbase.

>>8736571
i did it myself actually. i'm just pointing out like you said that paying your taxes now covers your ass when coinbase/etc reports you and/or gets supoena'd over the coming years.

Crypto isn't going away, and it's not going take down the government either. They will merge, and since the bitcoin blockchain is permanent, everyone will be rooted out eventually (barring presently non-existent privacy methods---NSA can track the shit out of monero transactions, for example).

>>8736346
yeah he's gonna kill himself in a couple of months

>>8736670
Fraud requires a demonstration of intent. The last thing the IRS wants to do is prosecute you. They want you to pay. The worst case scenario for most situations, including the situation you're alluding to (old Coinbase records), is generally that they slap you with a big, fat bill. I don't think 'fraud penalties' exist—you either get prosecuted for a federal offense (tax fraud) which means prison time, or you get taken to civil court and/or hit with a bill.

And again, for them to get records of people who didn't have 1099s sent this year, this applies: >>8736491
>I forgot to mention: you will only get a 1099 according to current laws if you exceeded $20k USD in any one transaction and/or 200 total transactions. My understanding is that this applies not just to coinbase but to sales on eBay, amazon, that kind of thing.

Keep in mind that the IRS is currently massively underfunded and it has to actually make sense from a cost-benefit standpoint for them to pursue people (they're not going after NEETs who cashed out $5,000 and didn't report it)

The 'precedent' you're describing is a very specific scenario with very specific parameters

>>8736718
>>8736670
Oh, and let's say you did most of your trading on Binance—they're not going to know shit about that, and chances are they won't bother contacting Binance whatsoever. If you didn't receive a 1099, you're simply not on the radar.

That is assuming you aren't cashing out amounts exceeding $10k at a time (CTR) or large amounts under $10k which are otherwise inconsistent with your banking activity (SAR) AND totaling enough to make the IRS actually care (I'd guess >$50k)


Otherwise they're going to give you the standard treatment
- look at what you submitted
- line item audit your finances
- if it's +/- $10k of what you reported, accept it and move on to the next schmuck

If you are cashing out millions or you're a NEET cashing out $75k then things change slightly and you may want to actually report... but again this is a non-issue and can be handled in a number of ways that don't involve reporting your ATH gains and paying more in tax than your fucking portfolio is worth lol

>>8736746
How do I get my USdank out of cuckbase without getting cucked by the t@x m@n? Convert it to bitcoin cash and send it somewhere else?

>>8736718
>Fraud requires a demonstration of intent.
Which is why, "I didn't know about this, here's all these people saying that you could use like kind in 2017. What? I didn't know you had to file a form to use like kind" Would most likely work.
>I don't think 'fraud penalties' exist—you either get prosecuted for a federal offense (tax fraud) which means prison time, or you get taken to civil court and/or hit with a bill.
True, I was really referencing underreporting penalties which you can often get waived and was using layman terms as most people lump them together.
>And again, for them to get records of people who didn't have 1099s sent this year, this applies:
You're still ignoring that a fishing expedition is likely on bittrex, not as clear if binance would cooperate or not.

>>8736791
>You're still ignoring that a fishing expedition is likely on bittrex
And in that case the worst that will likely happen is that 5 years from now they'll send you a bill for income tax on the value of the crypto you traded plus penalties and you can contest it with correct amount. But that's an awful amount of assumptions just to get to that point, and in the end the outcome is the same as if you self-report now and pay all those taxes anyway (although without the penalties). I personally doubt they'll do even that.

Binance CEO said they'd cooperate but again I doubt that the IRS would even bother in most cases.

IMO the only people who have to worry about this are people with millions in gains who would benefit from filing properly anyway (thus reducing their liability up front), otherwise just kick the can down the road and see how it goes in the distant future

>>8736789
>How do I get my USdank out of cuckbase without getting cucked by the t@x m@n? Convert it to bitcoin cash and send it somewhere else?
buy things with your crypto

>>8736831
>And in that case the worst that will likely happen is that 5 years from now they'll send you a bill for income tax on the value of the crypto you traded plus penalties and you can contest it with correct amount.
Right, which is why I've agreed this entire time that there is more upside for him to not report. I entirely disagree with you on the likelihood of them eventually finding out though. We already have the precedent of them going after coinbase records and being granted them for anyone who bought, sold, or transferred more than $20,000 in bitcoin. Given that I think its far more likely than not that they do the same with other exchanges when 2017 was far larger than prior years and the initiated the subpoena on coinbase in 2016.

>>8736831
>Binance CEO said they'd cooperate but again I doubt that the IRS would even bother in most cases.
Aren't they moving to Malta?

>>8736789
Move it elsewhere, find atms

>>8736865
I think you're mistaken about the specific criteria (I don't think it was simply 20k total volume) but I don't care to split hairs if we're in agreement otherwise

And again, even if they do find out, which I consider unlikely and I guess we disagree on that, he's still only going to get a bill—it's not a big deal

>>8736877
Binance's public statements on the matter have basically been "we will cooperate with the IRS if asked"

But again I don't think it would ever come to that, especially if you never received a 1099, and even IF it does they'll just send you a bill...

this is just a non issue

>>8736836
from a personal wallet, from an ip address that is not tied to your identity. if you purchase from your coinbase wallet you might as well have cashed it out.

personally its not worth the trouble of hiding for my whole life. I decided back in 2011 that no amount of money was worth risking prison time. Otherwise I would have been mining over tor back then, flipping contraband for cash, and would presently be living on st paul or wherever with roger ver.

>>8736885
>I don't think it was simply 20k total volume
It was.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2017/11/29/irs-nabs-big-win-over-coinbase-in-bid-for-bitcoin-customer-data/2/#fff78e270d9a

>>8736888
most of this exists in your head

for one thing, there's no such thing as your IP address being associated with a public blockchain address lol
>>8736899
from the source https://www.scribd.com/document/365893210/US-v-Coinbase-order#fullscreen&from_embed

>(“Narrowed Summons”).
(Dkt. No. 37.) As
modified, the IRS now seeks information regarding accounts “with at least the equivalent of
$20,000 in any one transaction type (buy, sell, send, or receive) in any one year during the 2013-
2015 period.”

>>8736899
>>8736917
and to clarify this corresponds to current laws for literally anything, not just coinbase. again, eBay sales, etc. see also >>8736491
>I forgot to mention: you will only get a 1099 according to current laws if you exceeded $20k USD in any one transaction and/or 200 total transactions. My understanding is that this applies not just to coinbase but to sales on eBay, amazon, that kind of thing.

for all the retards out there

l*calethereum
and
l*calbitcoin

c*sh depos*ts

They won't make the connection

>>8736917
Transaction type, not single transaction. If you sold a total of $20k they get your records even if that was multiple trades. Very easy to hit that if you were actively trading.

>>8735670
so basically back to business as usual except some extra bureaucracy on top.

>>8735131
>running off to the Phillipines, you can't get a bank account anywhere without an ID
You can get an acr ID card after two months. Which I think can be used for a bank account.

>>8736942
I stand corrected. Still, we have to make a number of assumptions for anyone ITT to worry about this kind of thing
>they'll do this again in the future (plausible, but will take a while)
>your gains will actually be enough for them to consider you worth pursuing
>they'll use this as a platform from which to explore the chain and connect your other accounts (no precedent for this yet)
>they'll do something other than send you a bill for income tax on the full value of your account at any given time (standard procedure)

Basically it behooves most people to simply not file if they didn't receive a 1099 from Coinbase for 2017, or to pay short-term capital gains with a cost basis of zero if their tax liability would otherwise exceed their portfolio value (jesus christ)

>>8735867
I bet he feels really smug because the TV told him what to believe and feel until he FOMOs in again this year.

>>8736673
>NSA can track the shit out of monero transactions
source?

>>8735131
Also literally everything done in Philippines is cash. I pay rent, water, electricity in cash. Even online purchases, you pay cash on delivery.

>>8736988
>Basically it behooves most people to simply not file if they didn't receive a 1099 from Coinbase for 2017, or to pay short-term capital gains with a cost basis of zero if their tax liability would otherwise exceed their portfolio value (jesus christ)

Not only that but lets not forget the scenario where you follow the rules and the IRS goes full panic because they cant force people to pay taxes. They make crypto illegal and now everyone who followed the rules is forced to give up all of their crypto.

>>8737000
backdoored Intel and AMD hardware. Pretty much anything on a computer can be stolen at any time unless you're using an obscure privacy OS and browser on top of pre-backdoored hardware.

>>8737028
>They make crypto illegal and now everyone who followed the rules is forced to give up all of their crypto.
Gold seizure all over again
>the US then sits on one of the biggest wallets ever

>>8737000
Its presumed simply because monero is vulnerable to sybil just like tor is and we already know that they can track tor if they really want you badly enough. Still far better than not using any sort of protection. Also incredibly unlikely that NSA resources are used just to catch tax evaders.

>>8737022
>Also literally everything done in Philippines is cash. I pay rent, water, electricity in cash. Even online purchases, you pay cash on delivery.
won't I get raped/murdered by the locals?

>>8737042
>backdoored Intel and AMD hardware. Pretty much anything on a computer can be stolen at any time unless you're using an obscure privacy OS and browser on top of pre-backdoored hardware.
this is delusional at best, you have to get through so many other more realistic concerns before you have to start worrying about embedded minix on your shitbox macbook dude

>>8737047
No, that's a meme. I've got some buddies there.

>>8736917
literally every piece of data over US infrastructure is recorded. no, ip addresses are not assigned to blockchain addresses. But you're sadly ignorant if you don't realize they already have systems in place to track ALL of this shit. Its just a matter of time until it all becomes automated, at which point it will be applied to everyone instead of just people worth the (at present considerable) expense. I'm looking into the future, covering my ass from every angle. You can roll the dice.

>>8737065
>literally every piece of data over US infrastructure is recorded. no, ip addresses are not assigned to blockchain addresses. But you're sadly ignorant if you don't realize they already have systems in place to track ALL of this shit. Its just a matter of time until it all becomes automated, at which point it will be applied to everyone instead of just people worth the (at present considerable) expense. I'm looking into the future, covering my ass from every angle. You can roll the dice.
You're speaking in generalities and this info is gonna be used against high profile targets, not you and your little $100k gains, lmao. What you're describing are metadata collection and things like parallel construction. DYOR and stop being afraid of your own shadow, kid.

>>8737047
They aren't niggers, anon

>>8737044
>>8737065
>people thinking exit node vulnerability means the entirety of tor is broken
STAHP USING TOR ITS BROKEN GOD

>>8737084
>>8737064
Eh, I dunno, the only guy I know from the Philippines had a politician brother who was literally assassinated. Seems like the memes are true.

>>8737095
>politician brother
There's your problem. Also
>thinking same shit doesn't happen here
RIP Seth Rich.
>>8737091
I said that its vulnerable but better than not using it at all.

>land of the "free"
>cucked by IRS kikes this hard
AHAHAHAHAHAH

>>8734502
So let them assume I stayed in BTC and didn't trade alts for better gains

>>8737000
transaction times are slow, and volume is low. there are not very many possibilities. They have deep enough access to hundreds/thousands/more infrastructure points to reduce every transaction to a very small set of possbilities. further metadata (easily obtained by private contractors) locks that shit in. Unless you are very good or very lucky, they can get that shit to court admissible evidence, if they want to bad enough. It's only getting easier.

I don't have a source handy, but i've been researching this type of shit for a long time. realized it's a losing battle a long time ago. if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

and that's not even getting into what the other poster mentioned, which is that they have hardware backdoor access to all your private keys anyway.

I've literally had hard drives fried by motherboard chipset/bios backdoors, because i used to use pre-backdoor CPUs and tried to get wikileaks backup data when they disappeared assange.

you so badly do not want to believe the truth about the world, you would never believe most of the shit i've found out. and even what i know is just the surface shit, compared to what is pretty much unknowable. But generally I've been on to stuff about ten years before it gets publicly admitted. For example, the snowden leaks were damage control. I knew that shit for over 8 years before he came out. I don't know all the angles, but there's a high chance he's some kind of double/triple agent

>>8737172
you're lost in your own head bud, Monero alone is hard enough to track that unless you are literally a spy for a foreign nation trying to subvert the US there's a solid chance that you're squarely in delusion land, and even then I'd wager that they still won't be able to do much about your Monero dealings

>>8737051
you're a fucking idiot. the manufacturers even advertise these capabilities as "features"

>>8737193
you have no specifics at all, you're just spouting nonsensical bullshit in here and fear mongering

ok, we get it, you want to cuck yourself
have fun paying taxes on your December ATH because you imagine that the government is going to employ some off the books assets against you in order to chase your little five figure gains heh

>>8737070
You're speaking about your knowledge of the past. The present is always further ahead than is let on (national security donchaknow). In 15-30 years, this shit will be so far beyond ordinary. I'm sorry you can't plan for the future.

>>8737051
>this is delusional at best

>hasn't done any research
>bloo bloo bloo they would never do that to me, I'm special
You may need to rethink the definition of delusion.

>>8737172
>you so badly do not want to believe the truth about the world, you would never believe most of the shit i've found out. and even what i know is just the surface shit, compared to what is pretty much unknowable. But generally I've been on to stuff about ten years before it gets publicly admitted. For example, the snowden leaks were damage control. I knew that shit for over 8 years before he came out. I don't know all the angles, but there's a high chance he's some kind of double/triple agent
Snowden was an obvious limited hangout.

>>8737231
>>8737225
wow bros you just blew my mind, the CIA is totally going to collude with the IRS and engage in some massive parallel construction campaign against the general populace to get their extra $20k each from the random retard taxpayer

going to leave now and rethink my life, ty for the advice

The definition that was given in the other thread about the difference between WoW gold and crypto.

>Non-convertible (or closed) virtual currency is intended to be specific to a particular virtual domain or world, such as a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG) or Amazon.com, and under the rules governing its use, cannot be exchanged for fiat currency. Examples include: Project Entropia Dollars; Q Coins; and World of Warcraft Gold.

>Cryptocurrency refers to a math-based, decentralised convertible virtual currency that is protected by cryptography.—i.e., it incorporates principles of cryptography to implement a distributed, decentralised, secure information economy. Cryptocurrency relies on public and private keys to transfer value from one person (individual or entity) to another, and must be cryptographically signed each time it is transferred.

First off World of Warcraft gold can and is often traded for fiat. Not only that but they outline cryptography as a key aspect. Games like world of warcraft do utuilze cryptography as a means to prevent cheating. They list centralization but WoW does not only have one server it has hundreds, this is very similar to coins that have a limited number of master nodes ect. In the cas of wow your password is your key and the cryptography is the client server architecture. All player transactions in wow have to be cryptographically signed each and every time one happens.

>>8737187
its not about what can be determined now, it's about what can EVER be determined.
>>8737210
you want to stay comfy with your head in the sand, i'm not gonna waste my energy trying to change your mind. I'm just saying what is.

>>8737210
>5 figure gains
oh I get it, you just suck at this. yeah you've got nothing to worry about. I keep forgetting i'm on /biz/

>>8737253
Do you realize how much time and resources have to be dedicated to decryption?
Crypto is not going to be the NSA's concern. They're too busy finding people selling nukes and other world threatening shit.

Keep sucking that fear dick though. The only thing Snowden did is caused people to be more paranoid and think the NSA is all powerful, they're not.

>>8737242
>intended to be specific to a particular virtual domain or world
Key word is intended.

>>8737241
Stay pleb

>>8737253
oh ok so I am to believe you have tens of millions in gains and that you were too stupid to take any proactive measures and you believe that one agency of the government is really going to contact a completely separate agency having deployed these assets against you simply to extort a few extra bucks for their bottom line

yeah, they're spying on everyone and running guns and murdering people but they need to go on fishing expeditions using things normally reserved for national security in order to raise money

lol

fuck off man

>>8736673
>NSA can track the shit out of monero transactions
Factually incorrect and if you did the slightest bit of digging beneath the surface you'd know that the alphabet agencies view monero as a serious threat and the only real way to tackle it is destroying the market, be it through banning pairings on centralized exchanges or having a controlling share of the circulating supply.

Can anyone advise if they filed LIFO? It's the difference between paying 5k and paying like 20k.. which I would have to cash out almost all my crypto to do..

>>8737285
>Can anyone advise if they filed LIFO? It's the difference between paying 5k and paying like 20k.. which I would have to cash out almost all my crypto to do..
as long as you are consistent you can do either one, ideally you should be using FIFO though

it's only an issue if the IRS contests it

>>8737271
what about what we've been discussing is encrypted? I fully support encryption, but I highly doubt you're using it properly, if at all. Not to mention, for a large chunk of things they don't need to "decrypt" shit unless you mean "simply opening with a master private key", which takes no effort at all.

>>8737277
Then this means that Steem power is not taxable as it is closer to WoW gold than it is to crypto. Steem power is not intended to be a tradeable cryptography based asset. Its intended to be within an enclosed system and its meant to stay that way.

If all we need is steem power to dodge taxes then this is too fucking easy.

>>8737285
I'm using LIFO and intend to fight it in tax court if they audit me. Its an aggressive stance though, and I wouldn't advise it with your amounts. What I would advise is filing LIFO anyways but having the funds in reserve to pay the difference just in case they do audit you.
>>8737295
LIFO is definitely better if you want a lower tax liability.

>>8737304
>what about what we've been discussing is encrypted?
Nigger you're the one saying tor is completely backdoored/controlled and all this FUD about computer hardware.

>>8737241
You're literally the same type of ignorant retard that said the government wasn't spying on anyone in the US and screeched "muh tinfoil" wherever you went until the NSA and PRISM program was revealed to the US on mainstream national news. I'm not wasting my time on a brainlet that attacks a position with no argument except "that can't be happening because I said so". For any other anons, if your private keys are on backdoored hardware you are liable to be fucked in the ass at any time the government, the manufacturers or some black-hat hackers decide to remote access your computer. It doesn't matter how poor or rich you are at this very moment, what matters is that your hardware is compromised and you're accepting the risk that you'll suddenly find your wallet drained one day.

>>8737317
>Then this means that Steem power is not taxable as it is closer to WoW gold than it is to crypto. Steem power is not intended to be a tradeable cryptography based asset. Its intended to be within an enclosed system and its meant to stay that way.
Wrong, steem power is designed to be convertible and traded outside of steem otherwise there would be no power down feature. Meanwhile WoW tries(and fails) to ban gold sellers and prohibits selling it for fiat in their ToS.

>people itt thinking they will get away from taxes when everything is on a public ledger

Unless you did everything right from the start, you're constantly at risk. You might not be caught this year, but your history will never disappear.

Binance might partner up with the SEC a few years from now, for all we know.

>>8737381
You cant trade steem power. You are also heavily limited in how much steem power can be destroyed in order to create new steem coins.

>>8737396
You can convert it and it was designed to be converted.

>>8737279
I dont have tens of millions of gains at present. Once again, the future is the next present, and the information of past presents is stored digitally and forwarded to the future presents.

But I'm wasting my time. Statistically well over 99% of people lack the cognitive capacity to grasp what I'm getting at.

>>8737283
oh its definitely an arms race, i'm not denying that. And there will always be fringes that remain out of reach. But by the same token the NSA aren't going to blow the surprise element of whatever edge they have, they're going to keep it as hush as possible to nab the people they really want.

>>8737285
I filed HPFO, because that's how i traded. I can back most of it up with movements from cold wallets to exchanges and such. Also the entire point for me is to accumulate crypto, not fiat. I read everything I could at the beginning of the year and there is nothing stopping specific lot identification, as long as its consistent.

>>8737389
>Unless you did everything right from the start, you're constantly at risk.

You are at risk even if you do everything too. We are in a situation where if you have crypto at all you are treading unexplored ground. Following the rules will just as likely work against you as blatantly not following them.

>>8737368
Where do u keep your private keys then if not on ledger?

>>8734339
You don’t take a loss until you sell it for less than you bought it for.

>>8737360
there are two other posters that you are attributing to me.

I don't disagree, but that was peripheral to the topic of this thread.

>>8737414
This means that ISK in Eve online is subject to crypto tax law then. As it was meant to be converted.

Also WoW gold is designed to be converted to USD. They made a feature a few years back to buy tokens that are worth gold. This is a moot point anyway.

WoW Gold IS intended to be converted as of a few years ago.

>>8734991
Can't he use his losses in 2018 to basically cancel everything out in the end anyway? Isn't this like what Trump did where everyone was complaining about him not paying taxes for a long time due to taking heavy losses one year?

>>8737446
Actually a lot of video games have a fiat gateway or tokens that are designed to convert to USD. Also they fucked up on the difinition more. Most video game currencies are converted to USD for the developers of the game. They generate new coins worth USD fairly often. And many times illegally.

>>8737434
tattoed inside my foreskin

>>8737434
paper wallet is one option.
>>8737446
>This means that ISK in Eve online is subject to crypto tax law then. As it was meant to be converted.
Not familiar with EVE really, if that's true then sure. Sounds like Second Life and I'd say that the rules would definitely apply to it.
>Also WoW gold is designed to be converted to USD. They made a feature a few years back to buy tokens that are worth gold. This is a moot point anyway.
If you can actually sell WoW gold to Blizzard for USD now then yes, I haven't played in quite a few years.

>>8737446
RS gold has been taxed for like 15 years now.

EVERYTHING is taxed guys . . . everybody commits felonies. Your job is to be (or at least appear to be, i suppose) one of the "good guys", so that the "bad guys" get in trouble instead. the game is just another inversion of reality. you actually win if you realize you're playing.

>>8737481
>If you can actually sell WoW gold to Blizzard for USD now then yes, I haven't played in quite a few years.

They have special tokens in WoW that kind of act as a way to get USD by selling them in game. One way they do this kind of system is by giving you credits that allow you to play the game for "free" for X time. They often give you USD directly in your battle.net account.

>>8737494
>RS gold has been taxed for like 15 years now.

Well now according to the law you have to report every transaction including mobs you killed.

>>8736986
What is an ACR id card?

>>8737525
>One way they do this kind of system is by giving you credits that allow you to play the game for "free" for X time. They often give you USD directly in your battle.net account.
If its still limited to only being spent on a Blizzard game I'd say it doesn't count as that's still within a particular virtual domain.

So if you make a coin that has a TOS where it explicitly states that the coin is not meant to be used as a currency. You can then claim it was designed for an enclosed system?

>>8737562
No, its not in an enclosed system.

>>8734231

jokes on him, you didn't have to declare crypto to crypto for 2017

>inb4 some IRS memester tries to say otherwise

then they should have made it clearer instead of in saying for 2018 specifically

>>8737594
The IRS made it clear in 2014 buddy. IRS didn't pass the law for 2018, Congress did.

>>8737602

every fucking tax website says it ambiguous, including even Forbes. Seems like no one actually knows if you MUST or not, but they are saying you SHOULD to "be safe". If even the experts aren't sure, can we really say the IRS knows what the fuck it's doing with crypto and taxes?

>>8737594
>>8737612
>I believe that crypto to crypto is a like kind property exchange for tax purposes
Alright. Now fill one of these out for every trade you did last year and submit that with your taxes.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8824.pdf

>>8737588
Make a very simple RPG where it uses its own blockchain to track all of the games progress and items ect. TOS says that the game is not meant to have any kind of real money trade involved similar to WoW. Players are allowed to trade items with each other on the auction house.

Basically a tax haven at that point.

>>8737602

And by the way I have researched the crypto to crypto bullshit for months and also in 2017 and nobody is 100% sure if it should be done for 2017, we only know 2018 for sure. Others say it was always that way. There has not been any 100% clear answer on how to file for 2017. I have gone on plebbit forums and asked and people give different answers. Asked on turbotax, different answers. Asked a fucking tax attorney and they said the same thing. NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS.

>>8737629
Now you're getting to something a bit more interesting. Under this any transactions with game items and progress probably wouldn't be taxed. What would be taxed is when someone violates that ToS and tries to trade the game currency for something else, just as if you sell WoW gold for real money you would still owe tax on that even though you wouldn't owe tax on gold you get just normally playing WoW.

>>8735464

No one is going to fucking do this. They'll have to eventually accept that it's only practical to collect taxes when going from crypto to fiat.

>>8737670
I was just thinking that the game probably would be more effective if it didn't have a blockchain but at that point it would be too centralized and it would cost money to keep track of everyone's accounts.

But if every item in the game loosely represented a coin it would then start to be a like an exchange almost. What a weird thought.

So like BTC could be a "Bitcoin sword" You can have "Cardano Gloves" and "Doge Boots"

Just like all items in the game could have clever names to represent each coin.

>>8735756

How's it work then? Say I buy an ETH for 400 bucks on Coinbase. A year later, after investing in some other coin on Binance, I end up with 10k. How do I properly go about cashing that out and the taxes involved?

>>8736106
Unless you converted in dollars there should be no taxes.
Cryptos are monopoly money on the same rank as Magic Cards, the only reason the taxman wants to make you pay on this shit is because the state is indebted to death and need you for the welfare of Muhammad and Tyrone.

>>8737629
>>8737670
>>8737702
An exchange to trade crypto to crypto as game items? If this was an essential virtual tax haven it could get interesting.

>>8737242
Here's the full text of that.

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/reports/Virtual-currency-key-definitions-and-potential-aml-cft-risks.pdf

>It should be noted that even where, under the terms set by the administrator, a non-convertible currency is officially transferrable only within a specific virtual environment and is not convertible, it is possible that an unofficial, secondary black market may arise that provides an opportunity to exchange the “non-convertible” virtual currency for fiat currency or another virtual currency. Generally, the administrator will apply sanctions (including termination of membership and/or forfeiture of remaining virtual currency) to those seeking to create or use a secondary market, contrary to the rules of the currency.11 Development of a robust secondary black market in a particular “non-convertible” virtual currency may, as a practical matter, effectively transform it into a convertible virtual currency. A non-convertible characterisation is thus not necessarily static.

So then World of Warcraft Gold does becopme convertible virtual currency if there's a "robust secondary black market".

Notice how "Second Life Dollars" was included as one of "convertible virtual currency" It literally doesn't matter if it's a video game or not. If there's a market and you can get to dollars and back someway, it's convertible. So there's no way around taxes.

>>8735172

Wash cycle minimum 30 day span in between. Cant be immediate

>>8737809
It wouldn't be hard to do either. The simpler the game the better. All you need is a half decent auction house based on a blockchain. And a bunch of items.

>>8737844
>So then World of Warcraft Gold does becopme convertible virtual currency if there's a "robust secondary black market".

There is a robust black market in every major MMO though. So basically WoW gold is taxed then.

This also means that CS:GO weapon skins are taxed and so are TF2 hats. If this is the case then there is no hope of a tax haven system outside of just obfuscation techniques.

>>8736360
5% seems a little low, and I doubt just having a tos that prohibits selling negates the fact that it's a virtual currency and tons of people trade it for fiat.

>>8737878
>There is a robust black market in every major MMO though. So basically WoW gold is taxed then.

I mean yeah. Technically. It's all about if you're in the IRS's crosshairs or not. If you keep splashing the waters about WOW gold then they will be.

Apparently for the Second Life video game you have to fill out full blown W-9's and 1099's and shit. LOL:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Required_Tax_Documentation_FAQ

>>8737956
>Apparently for the Second Life video game you have to fill out full blown W-9's and 1099's and shit. LOL:

yeah for when you cash out. But right now we are literally looking at this coin to coin shit effecting all digital markets. There are a lot of land barrens in Second Life who are not expecting to have to pay taxes without having to cash out first.

>>8737878
>>8737917
>It wouldn't be hard to do either. The simpler the game the better. All you need is a half decent auction house based on a blockchain. And a bunch of items.

The hats and skins are in game fiat purchases right?

In the idea of this virtual auction house these would all be item trades between persons. But perhaps they appear in an actual inventory on the persons hard drive as text. Or somehow the items themselves, per their value, go into the players wallet.
How could this work?

>>8737809
https://exchange.projectwyvern.com/

> The Wyvern Exchange is a decentralized digital item exchange, built by a team of contributors from around the world and governed autonomously by the Wyvern DAO. Exchange users can buy, sell, auction, and trade secret information, scarce collectibles, smart contracts themselves and more without trusting each other or the Exchange itself.

I am too tired to come up with any good ideas at the moment. but I am glad to see people start actually looking for tax avoidance techniques. This kind of thing is more important than just crying IRS FUD,

I firmly believe that in digital assets that tax avoidance is identical in practice to tax evasion simply because we can change the rules. And if avoidance is indistinguishable from evasion then taxation of digital assets will always fail.

All we need to do is go over the letter of the law and figure out some kind of angle. One solid idea can fuck these tax man assholes up.

>>8734304
That would not solve his problem.
He didn't even cash out at all and yet he still owes money to tax-fags.
He didnt even sell any of his crypto at that point and was only hodling

>>8734339
Only in America

>>8737469
Yeah he can cancel out any capital gains in the future or $3000 a year of other income, but he has no money to make capital gains in the future now.

>>8735936
>>8735955
>>8735984
Amazon HQ is in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

You know what else is in Albuquerque?
Breaking Bad. Walter White. Meth.

>>8738120
The tax came from trading. If he just hodl'd bitcoin through that whole time he wouldn't have had any taxes.

>>8738193
>You know what else is in Albuquerque?
The heroin capital of the world is a few hours away as well.

>>8735449
fuck youuuuuuuu


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER

I played the Sims in 2017 and my family made about 114k. Do I have to pay tax on this virtual currency? Is there tax on my virtual home or furnishings? Will I owe property tax? Do I need to pay my sim's income tax? Can I deduct my sim's tuition?

>>8737471
outplaying the jews

>>8738305
report it to be safe, anon

>>8738305
kek

>>8738305
>tfw you realize this is what ppl think about taxation in its early days and that this idea will be real anytime soon

>>8734343
>Land of the free.
Land of the fee.

he cucked himself in every way possible, lmfao @ redditors

>>8737640
I'm 100% sure. Did you ask the IRS code? because there is definitely an answer. Not a spoonfed one, but the conclusion is inescapable. nobody is going to do that work for you, unless you pay them a lot of money. bottom line: in every situation where like-kind deferment does apply, you have to PETITION for it. If the answer isn't yes (find me a shred of evidence in law or IRS policy supporting that), it's no. If you fill out a 1031 and they deny it, you just handed all your trades over anyway. If you don't fill out a 1031, you don't get like-kind. The key concept here is that it's a "deferment". You have to be granted a deferment by authority, you can't just defer things yourself.

a law says you owe tax on x
another law says in case a and b you can be exempted from tax on x
now you want to be exempted from case c because you think its similar. Where is the law exempting case c from tax x? It doesn't exist.

Now there is another law (unnecessary) that states that case c is definitely not case a or b. case c was never case a or b.

>>8737701
grow up. everybody already does this. Its been this way for damn near 100 years. you want to short term trade commodities? follow the rules of trading commodities. this isn't a new thing, its just a new commodity.

>>8737861
actually, as a flip side of the "like kind deferment" principle, wash sale rules do not apply to crypto until they are specifically applied by future regulation/legislation.

There is still a "frivolous transaction" deal that can be applied, but it's quite a stretch to prove and there is positive defense for most situations where you would do it with crypto.

>>8738305
You can deduct the price that you paid for your Sims game from your taxes if the USD value of your Simoleons that you earned in the game is less than the original investment (the price of the game)

>>8738954
Do I use a 1033 or 1098 to file that?

>>8738954
Actually, I traded Madden 2016 for the sims game and made a gain. Can I subtract sims losses from my game trade gain?