/biz/ - Business & Finance

All money is, senpai. Even gold is useless to the average person except insofar as they can convince other people that it's valuable and worth trading for.

>>8645433
everything financial is a ponzi

Am I a ponzi?

>>8645433
For the same reason that metals aren't

>>8645460
>>8645534
Metals have use...........Dogecoin ....

>>8645563
>Metals have use
So does crypto

>>8645600
I can build something with metal no matter if someone believes it has value or not. You retarded millennials are the worst generation on the planet.

The difference between a ponzu and an financial market is blurred. It comes down to whether there is a use case that makes the price "real" or not. It doesn't need to be reasonable, and the price being overinflated doesn't render it a ponzu scheme

Hope this helps you brainlet

>>8645652
What is bitcoins use case removing value from investors at an astonishing rate

>>8645650
>millennial
No. Also,
>what are smart contracts and why is having them on a blockchain important

>>8645683
>look I'm pretending to be retarded
"The price being overinflated doesn't render it a ponzi scheme"

It could be something as simple as an immutable store of value, which I personally think it does better than gold

>>8645563
Not really. They're only shiny and have whatever value you place on it.

>>8645693
>what are smart contracts

A buzz word to attract idiots

>>8645746
>buzz word
Time for you to kill yourself

>>8645433
Ponzis print papers that say they owe you money, which they make good on by attracting more investors. The amount of papers they print is unlimited, but the supply of new investors eventually dwindles. Bitcoin isn’t a company and doesn’t make any promises, also its supply is limited.

A currency is useful as long as you can trade it for other things. It doesn't matter if you trade it for seashells, castles or other currencies.

>>8645780
I bet I outlive your money anon kun. At this rate at least that is a solid bet.

>>8645837
Highly doubtful

>>8645803
>supply is limited.

Buzz word...... 100000 million bitcoin copies all just as worthless.

>some how limited.

>>8645863
Everyday I wake up to see it bleed out faster and faster. I can assure you I have more staying power

>>8645971
Nigger detected, no foresight

>>8646026
When you know I am right.

How the fuck is life not a Ponzi?

>>8645433
From what ive read, crypto has value both as a store of value (therefore having use), as well as value from speculative interest

>>8646158
>store of value

Try again.

>>8645433
gold and diamond are a ponzi too

>>8646104
You call smart contracts a "buzzword"
kys

>>8645720
>store of value
Take a finance class ever please

>>8645971
You can see on CMC that the copies are valued less if at all. The original ledger has the first-mover advantage in the niche and people try to get on that one rather than some copy that doesn’t have the recognition, adoption, and price stability. Naturally, cryptos compete on technological sophistication, but a copy of bitcoin that doesn’t offer some revolutionary new features isn’t going to replace it.

>>8646223
>posts a graph of an annual decline of less than one percent
>asserts this compared unfavorably to crypto

Jesus you're thick

>>8646359
Brah, having less shit does not make the shit better especially when everyone can shit. Tossing technical buzz words does not improve the shits quality.

>>8645720
>It could be something as simple as an immutable store of value, which I personally think it does better than gold

BTC sure has been storing value since December well

>>8646416
>muh buzz words
Why haven't you killed yourself yet?

>>8646499
I'm not your money

>>8645433
>The values of these currencies are speculative, when people realize they aren't actually worth anything the market will collapse
>This money has no real intrinsic value unless it's spent on something
>The system is a bubble, nothing is actually worth what people are paying for it and the longterm prospects are terrible
>The fact that anyone can fabricate these currencies with no finite connection to physical real world items means that it can be easily created and overinflated
>It's a massive ponzi scheme which is going to come down on top of anyone dumb enough to throw their wealth in
Talking about fiat of course.

>>8646527
>money
Hurr stop using these buzzwords please, my tiny brain can't comprehend

>>8646585
First truthful statement you made this thread

>>8646573
But my fiat appreciated by 66% this month alone (in Bitcoin).

>>8646610
Kek I was doing an impersonation of you

>>8646614
Bitcoin eats money alive some how these retards defend it.

Don't see how useless this thing is.

>>8646686
They're literally trying to rally the market when it's just the exchange and whales slowly skinning the entire market.

>>8646634
Check the price for a laugh. You are trolling me like a pro while getting fucked how is that working for you?

>>8646715
Literally one guy pumps it couple hours later completely deflated.

>>8646716
It's called patience and foresight, something that niggers like yourself lack. I held bitcoin from £10 in 2011 right up until last autumn when I sold it all for LINK, but I'm getting fucked, right? Yeah I'm down a bit since Jan but overall I'm up over 30000% from my initial. Stay salty and stay poor, faggot

>>8646716
>>8646766
The more you post the more evident it becomes that you don't really understand what crypto is and why people are interested in it. Honestly you seem a lot like a normie to me.

>>8646810
>>8646788

For every you I get the price drops 200,

@8646842
Ok let's do it like this then

>>8646810
The reason normies think crypto is a scam is because they're a good deal smarter than the autists, gamblers, and mongoloids on /biz/. Blockchain is a distributed public ledger and both SWIFT and PayPal allow transactions cheaper and faster.

>>8646878
>cheaper and faster
Maybe than bcore

Strong support at zero

>>8646902
Than literally any coin or crypto exchange. I can pull funds invested in money market to my checking account on my phone in less than a second for no fee.

capitalism is a scam, labour is the only thing that establishes value. that applies to gold too as it is worthless (unless you are a retard that actually believes in theoretical value) until it is mined, processed and so forth.

>>8645433
everything is a ponzi

>>8646956
>Than literally any coin

>>8646416
Does shit have a limited supply, durability, portability etc.? If you think those are buzzwords, try using shit as money.

>>8646956
Obvious bait, but still very stupid. Stupid even in the context of bait

>>8647026
if I shit post less do my post increase in value

>>8646990
That makes sense, given that companies don't have revenue other than stock sales and the manufacture of physical goods isn't real.

Oh wait, you're a faggot

you can melt coins into bullets
it think it's what ultimately counts

i just sold my old ps3 to my little brother. he thinks he can sell it for more. PONZIED!

>>8646934
>Bitcoin eats money alive
>Bitcoin price is dropping haha
You never post any real explanation of why you believe the things you do, you're just convinced you're right because the market is going down almost all of your posts are barely a sentence or two long. You use "crypto" and "bitcoin" interchangeably not realizing they refer to different things and clearly don't know what a smart contract is but happily mock people who are interested in them.
>Haha the price dropped 200 dollars
I never see these kinds of posts when the price is doubling like crazy, for years the price of one coin was lower than 200 and that's table scraps now. If you picked a random point in the history of bitcoin and bought in chances are you'd make a huge amount of money.

>Haha you lost 60% of your wealth
And if you're patient and wait a year or so you'll gain 60% of your wealth, extremely volatile markets are fantastic for people who are patient and understand real investing. 20% rise in a year is fantastic if you're dealing with any normal stock and bitcoin has been doing a hell of a lot better than that since it's inception. Of course it's overvalued, that doesn't make it a ponzi anymore than the internet was a ponzi when the speculative market built around it crashed.

The dollar on the other hand is the biggest ponzi scheme in history, it has lost value yearly and consistently, when the time comes that the US has to pay their debt in obligations the only way they'll be able to do it is by printing ludicrous amounts of cash.

>>8645433
Everything is life is a Ponzi.
If you start a religion and manage to gather followers, you will be more venerated than latecomers.

>>8647076
>physical goods with planned obsolescence
>not a ponzi

>>8645725
Holy shit the absolute state of brainlets
You wouldn't be posting this if it wasn't because of gold
You know CPUs and motherboards got gold on em right?
https://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml

>>8647105
>You never post any real explanation of why you believe the things you do

Why am I suppose to do this? When the market is answering the call.

>>8647076
Nowadays revenue and stock price are unrelated ever since they realised they can do "stock buyback" (aka PUMP IT)

>>8646977
Gold is useful as money because it's rare, malleable, tangible, and all the other properties of sound money. Value does not come from labor - otherwise, if you spent a lot of time and worked really hard at shitting in streets, street-shitting would become valuable. I don't expect a communist subhuman farm animal to understand economics, so please just shut up about things you don't have the biological capability to comprehend.

>>8647139
>street-shitting would become valuable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil
It does.

>>8647139
>value does not come from labour
t. jew

>>8645433

It's not 100% a ponzi because some of the demand for it is tied to moving money internationally and buying stuff on the black market. I'm guessing the majority of its demand is speculative ponzi shit tho.

>>8645460

All money is not a ponzi. It's demand is mostly attached to the real economy, which mean what is tradeable for money is expanding. That makes it positive sum. If there was only a fixed amount of things money could buy but the price of money was always rising because of demand, it would have to be a ponzi because the only thing fueling the price would be a zero sum stock of good and services.

>>8647128
You mean like land, bonds, and asset futures? This is okay bait but falls apart too quickly.

i guess it's time to sue and report these organizations to the SEC because they are promoting a ponzi by supporting smart contracts and blockchain tech. i heard that the SEC offers a bounty for this, what do you guys think? let's make money
https://www.capgemini.com/consulting-de/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2017/08/smart_contracts_paper_long_0.pdf
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_The_future_of_financial_infrastructure.pdf
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Realizing_Potential_Blockchain.pdf
www.mdpi.com/1999-5903/10/2/20/pdf

i'm 100% sure whatever shit the idiots on biz are saying are fucking retarded anyway and that i'm 100% smarter than them, but so are these longstanding companies and organizations recognized by governments and experts across industries because they are wrong, plain and simple. i won't listen to biztards no matter what decent argument they say because they are dumb but i won't listen to these guys either because they are just promoting a ponzi. bitcoin and crypto is a ponzi no matter what they say, no matter what bullshit they are spouting. it's time for me to make money off of crypto instead of these ponzi promoters, let's do it guys i'm gonna report them to the SEC

The price of anything is given by the relation of demand and supply, and those are determined by the aggregate subjective valuation of people. So, how do you separate good investments from bad ones? What makes crypto different from stocks for example?
The difference is the reason of the valuation: why people give value to a crypto or to a stock at all.
The majority of people hold and want (give value to) crypto for speculative gains, which is why cryptos are so volatile. But aside from speculation, are there REALLY other, sustainable, use cases for the majority of cryptos that would justify such high prices or their existence at all? And are people really willing to use crypto for these other cases?
Compare this to the stocks of a company with an actual product and positive cash flow. The price (and fluctuations) of the stocks of such a company doesnt mean much, it is useful only in relation to its other metrics like various indexes, balance sheet strength, capital and dividend growth etc. If the price is fair in relation to those, than the investment is probably good, otherwise it is bad even if the stocks are cheap and they are growing because of speculation.
So far, cryptos have nothing like that, they are like a company with no product, no balance sheet to check, no free cash flow with which to pay dividends and no clear future of usability and thus capital growth (which is the only gain that can come from cryptos, since they are not a company that has profits and can thus pay its shareholders dividends even if the value of the stock goes down). It is all hype, there are no solid fundamentals in the current crypto market.
Maybe some project will succeed and be used in the real world, but for now i suggest to stay away from cryptos and keep your money safe.
Also this doesnt mean that the blockchain as a technology is useless, im sure there are (and will be) companies that are implementing it in order to improve their services/products, but blockchain != cryptos.

>>8647201
all those things are ponzi like

>>8647231
>>8647204
tldr

>>8647073
No, because if there were demand for shit-posting, anyone else could create shit-posts of the same value instead of you.

>>8647204
oops, it's the CFTC, sorry. they are offering a $100k bounty for this.
https://cryptoinsider.21mil.com/cftc-offers-bounty-on-crypto-pump-dump-whistleblowers/

can you believe it, companies that will utilize smart contracts could possibly save billions. fucking billions saved by promoting a ponzi, what an absolute sham. i'll write up a long message to report these fucking disgusting, abhorrent, ponzi promoting companies. while i'm at it i will petition the US, the only country in the world that matters, to dissolve its alliance with other governments that are knowingly promoting and recognizing the so-called potential of blockchain technology and smart contracts, which we all know is a fucking scam, a fucking ponzi scheme is what it all is. who's with me?

>>8647137

That is true in a sense, but stock buybacks connect the stock price to revenue. It's actually the fact that most of FANG doesn't do big enough stock buybacks to offset the fact that they don't give dividends which means that people flooding the stock market with money are, to some degree, inflating the price of the stock in a ponzi-esque way because it is only their money making the price rise, not the actually company's profit somehow getting recycled back into the stock's ability to generate profit for shareholders.

>>8646317
Good argument

>>8647170
Collecting feces for fertilizer is an entirely different activity.

>>8647265
do you guys think i should post this to r/buttcoin? biz is full of dumb fucks who think they are onto something great when it's all a fucking ponzi scheme anyway. i might get more help there so we can finally get rid of this scamming retards. honestly, fuck you dumbasses. i can't wait to make money off of you.

>>8646494
It's getting less volatile over time and will settle eventually, especially after it's done printing

pic related. i suggest everyone to buy this book btw! full of great info that absolutely BTFOs the retards in crypto. fucking idiot scammers, fuck yourselves. ponzi promoting fucks. get jailed soon, idiots. i'm screencapping this thread to report all of you to the CFTC, can't wait to make money

>>8647294
>no pooping (labour)
>no readily available human feces (produced by labour)
>no street shit collecting (labour producing value)

>>8647264
Yeah, but at least I'm not stealing your money. So technically my shit posting is more valuable then btc. Hell, you might save money if you listen to me.

>>8647231
alot of stocks have no dividend or payout and astroninical p/e ratios.
likewise some cryptos are backed by real companies and in the case of currencies have transfer utility.
The fundamental fact of markets is that value is subjective, and that the market coordinatea time with interest.
this makes all assets a ponzi in a large enough span of time.

>>8647348
agreed. btw we can make these fucks lose some more money by blocking CBOE's attempt at making a bitcoin ETF. i remember the legendary dude from r/buttcoin back in 2015 made an incredibly long essay highlighting the stupid and scammy nature of bitcoin and crypto in general, because the winklevoss twins wanted to make a bitcoin ETF. and he was successful! it was denied! i think bitcoin was around $500 back then. i can't wait for the price to crash to lower than that. i am so fucking excited to make these idiots lose some more money, lmao. ponzipromoting scum.

You can buy things with Bitcoin & co. Admittedly the offer is still poor, but it's not a ponzi, it's just a very volatile currency. For example 2 Manhattan condos were sold in bitcoin recently. It has also outperformed fiat almost every year so it's a somewhat risky store of value long term but with advantages over other SoV.

Utility tokens are not "ponzi" but time will tell if they were "scams".

>>8647497
false. "time will tell" lmao, none of the current cryptos right now have any value. literally zero companies in the real world are using it. utility tokens my ass, they are fucking useless. just whitepapers, empty promises. the only thing you can use it for right now (and forever) is for you to buy it low so you can sell it for higher later, aka a fucking ponzi. literally no companies have a single use case in the real world right now. none. absolutely no crypto are being used in the real world, no partnerships, it's all lies, a fucking scam, a ponzi, get over yourself.

>>8647393
Biz, thinks attacking some idiot on the internet will get there money back.

Some retard just tried to buy the dip because of TA memes and what not.

then it collapsed.

>>8647547
lmao it's funny how they think that TA would help them get their money back while unironically ignoring what they call the "meme chart", aka very basic TA. it's all tea leaves anyway. there's no getting that money back. it's all a fucking sham, you people got scammed, sorry

>>8647139
Actually part of gold's valuation comes from the mining. Just like bitcoin.

>>8647578
What pisses me off the most are people like Tone Vays calling everything else a scam while wishing people who did not pick his scam lose all there money......Like the pot calling the kettle black.

>>8647541
>none
nope. maybe 99.9%.
any token that acts as a security has a use. trading tokens like bnb has a use. even platforms like ethereum have a use.

>>8647866
lol. bnb's only use is to trade all these ponzitokens. ethereum? just to create more of these ponzi shittokens. you people got scammed, sorry. ignore all the ramblings of those companies you might think are reputable or are legitimate. they are all fucking scams too for promoting blockchain and smart contracts, they are faking it. just straight out lying. we should report them to the CFTC so we can make some money. it's all a fucking scam, sorry. let's start with SWIFT for using its funds to host those competitions to utilise the technology for the fintech sphere they are a part of. just straight up promoting these ponzi schemes. i cant wait to jail those fucks

>>8645433
>how the fuck is any crypto not a ponzi?
https://pastebin.com/ZUxTmR99
1. BITCOIN HAVE LIMITED QUANTITY, IN DIFFERENCE FROM TULIPS, DOLLARS AND Ethereum
2. GOLD EXACTLY SAME A PYRAMID SCHEME AS A BITCOIN BUT ALREADY ABSORB ALL IN

Hey retards the ta doesn't just say to buy

I saw several charts by people I think tend to be better showing a decent probability of going past 7200

Even then you don't put it all in at the likely bottom

One guy even said 6.6k for a bounce based on bollingers, candles, and rsi

I'm currently saving my ass on eos because of another one

The best thing to learn in life is how to delegate because you will never be the best. When you have all these people offering free advice, listen to all of them and eliminate the ones who tend to be more wrong than right. And that goes for more than crypto

>>8647945
you are just straight up retarded

>>8647497
outperformed fiat?

if you annualize bitcoins inflation this year so far its literally worse than holding currency in zimbabwe during hyperinflation

>>8647374
No one said that there are no bad stocks (ie companies), infact you can check whether a stock is (most likely) a good buy or not.
Cryptos insofar have not produced anything that assure a sustainable demand for them, and there is no sign of that chaning or any way to know if that will change (while, again, with stocks a much more through analysis can be done).
The fact that some crypto are "backed" by companies doesnt mean anything until they are actually used.
There is a fundamental difference between a profitable, well managed, company (in which you can derive value either from investing in it, for future capital and dividend gains, or speculating, most likely unsuccesfully, with its stocks) and a digital asset which is valued (and thus derive its price) almost only for speculation.

>>8648102
i agree, they are just straight up gambling. if you actually believe in this "technology" (hint: it's all a scam) just buy it when it's legitimate already, and it has a high price. don't buy groundfloor when it could all be a fucking scam (hint: it is). what are you, dumbasses? there's no way to determine any of these has uses anyway. don't bother quoting the research of different organizations and experts across industries, they are all just dumb fucking idiots.

>>8648102
the differences are all in your mind as far as valuation is concerned.

>>8648150
Except that people can get tired to play with internet money at any point and for any reason, leave the market and never put money in it again, thus reducing permanently the value of cryptos. So for example, it is very possible that the current crash isnt just temporary, but a permanent devaluation of cryptos in general (since during the last bull the market got almost mainstream coverage, and many normies got burned with the crash).
On the other hand the stocks of a solid clothing company, with a reasonable moat in its local market for example, may have fluctuating stocks but that do not really change its revenue, net income and future capital growth prospects (and thus the profits for the owners) since people do not (and for the most part cannot) just stop to value clothing.
So yeah valuation is subjective, but human subjective preferences are not random and do converge in a range of things. And there are things that are valued almost universally because people need them to satisfy primal needs (and many other things, the majority, are valued because they help people and society at large to satisfy primal needs more easily).
The more you move away from this need-value relation, the more value become volatile, less solid, temporary and overall dependant on irrationality/emotions.

>>8648150
Also do not forget that cryptos are much harder to evaluate than stocks, infact you almost cant (it is gambling pretty much).
While stocks can be analyzed very throughtly and it can be determined with reasonable certainty if a stock is a good investement or not (this ofc isnt always true, but fundamental analysis + sound portfolio diversification can reasonably assure good returns and safety).

>>8645650
cool, build a decentralized application with your hunk of metal next.
it's almost like crypto and PM's have overlap but are fundamentally different. wow!

>>8646878
>normies
>smarter
ya blew it

>>8645460
Y'all dumb
A Ponzi is you buy expecting everyone else to do the same and make gorillions. This is the crypto brainlet mentality.

Metals are another kettle of fish. They are non preforming assets with long established uses.

>>8646878
>cheaper and faster
>doesn't own nano, neo
at the end of the day though, all non-fungible currencies can go die in a fucking fire.
ask yourself: why are people willing to pay 10% premium for freshly minted bitcoins?

>>8646317
explain why you're saying he needs to take a class, OR come off as a fucking retard. your choice buddy

>>8645725

b+ post, got me to reply.

i scrapped an old car that was a heaping pile of shit a good few years ago (exhaust had sheared right off in such a way that it was uneconomical to repair) but still got £200 for it. i wasn't sure why i was able to got such a good price considering it was 100% fucked but when i spoke to a mechanic friend after the fact he suggested that there's a surprising amount of worth even from scrap metal - said that for one thing the catalytic converter would have platinum in it that would be worth a good chunk of what the scrapyard paid me for the car. that was just one example of what they could do with it. made a lot more sense.

saying that ive always found it amazing that gold has survived as something that most societies have valued very, very highly for thousands of years, in large part due to its use in fashioning jewellery. its got a few medical uses, sure, but im amazed at its longevity as a kind of... status symbol metal?

>>8646359
Cnbc hire this man

>>8648804
>but human subjective preferences are not random and do converge in a range of things
yea but you have no idea what those things are

>>8650203
Yeah thats why you do fundamental analysis of companies, in order to know which are most likely solid (ie which are valued by the people and well managed by the managers).
Outside of obvious needs like food and other basic personal and societal goods/services.
This cant be done with cryptos, thats why it is gambling + they are no where near fundamental needs which means that at the end no one might find them useful (or maybe yes, we cant know)

>>8645460
Gold is a ridiculously good conductor for electricity and the technology that uses it. Same way LINK is going to change trading as we know it.