/biz/ - Business & Finance

Buy you dumb cunt.

>>860026
I mean what to do with the stock you already bought before the decline. I'm at a loss of exactly -66,66 euros

What stocks

Look into commodity ETNs, they're a gold mine at the moment.

Oil did not hold 42 and is crashing to a 30 handle, next major support is 37ish, should get you a decent 30ish% return

Gold is at major resistance, so watch that for an easy 20% via reversal

Natural gas is at the verge of a decent fall, so watch that, as well

Don't forget you can also short stocks

>>860029
Then short you dumb cunt

>>860035
I've invested in three tech companies (semiconductor/computer chips etc)

>>860040
I have no idea how to do that. short means selling stocks you don't have, right ? I'm talking about the stocks I already have.

>>860049
For the stocks you already have your options are to sell and realize the loss or hold out for a rebound.

Personally I am holding and riding out for a rebound.

I guess it all comes down to what you believe. Is this a larger than usual dip in the day to day cycle? Or is thie the apocalypse many precious metal and race war enthusiasts have been predicting?

>>860121
nah I don't actually believe in the happening. they're fun to shitpost about, but that's all.

>>860035
What do you mean by next major support st 37? Also, is investing in dwti still worth it?

>>860049

looooooooooool you are so fucked if you have tech

>>860169
why?
>looooooooooool
are you 12 ?

>>860163

The next price of WTI that historically held is around the area of 37, we have broken through the years old one at 42.

The left dip is that 37ish resistance, it's from years ago. The right dip is where we are now, 41ish. Before oil can rebound that support must be tested. You are safe to buy DWTI (at least wait for a dip) until that line is tested. If it is broken oil may even see a 20 handle. If it bounces, it could spur a rally.

>>860194

Forgot image

>>860163

Here is the current channel. If it breaks up DO NOT buy or hold DWTI. As long as you are in the channel you should make money from oil

>>860197
What kind of dip should I wait for before purchasing dwti? Let's say I have 5 grand j want to use to short oil. Do I put it all in or progressively? Also, best way to buy it (first time buyer)?

>>860201
buy it all nigger

Friday actually might end up being worse than today based on how futures are acting right now.

As a long term investor, don't listen too much into technically analysis. You may think you understand it, and you may do well the first time. But it will come back to bite you when it doesn't play out how you predicted.

If the big banks and investment firms are having trouble making money on oil stocks, you're likely to as well.

Personally I'd just buy and wait. The Dollar is going to strengthen until rate day (whenever that happens) and then it will drop. Buy around rate change day.
That's the only true fundamental change you can predict. The federal reserves fund rate.

For the short term until US/Europe/China oil collapses, oil is going to remain cheap and hard to make money on.

It's just as likely to drop to 37, make a small rebound, and then fall to 25, as it is to jump to 60 from right now.

>>860208
Futures only determine 10-20% of where the stock market will actually open at.
But yeah, there's a good chance we're heading into another global growth stagnation. Particularly in developing countries.

>>860207
Why you gotta fuck with me, man

>>860024

>Started investing a year ago
>Buy and hold they said
>It'll get better someday.

It could be worse though, it wasn't like I was going to need to spend this money anytime soon. I should keep holding r-right guys?

>>860222
>>Started investing a year ago
>>Buy and hold they said

>buys etfs
>expects immediate returns

Come on. They're dependent on the market and are LONG-TERM. If the indexes are down, they will also be down... that is the point. Look at where it will get you 5, 10 years from now. Not 3 years or less.

You should never go all in, especially with ETNs, but as long as you play the channel and use stops you should be fine.

If you look at the daily candles for the last two weeks of WTI you'll see a noticeable disparity between intraday highs and lows. For example, both today and yesterday UWTI was up by about 4%, and closed red both days. These are a result of technical bounces due to such strong selling pressure which creates a constant state of being oversold. You can simply buy the dips as a result of such low RSI (oversold/bought). It's not too important, just may net you an early extra 2-5%. The trend is down and always follow the trend. Pic related shows how RSI and the bounces coincide, it's only technical, nothing to fear.

Pay attention to key supports/resistances/candlesticks as you don't want to be a bag holder when WTI bounces 4 dollars (temporarily) on ISIS news.

Fundamentally and technically, oil is bearish. Depending if gold breaks through this MA and trend line, I will also add to my DWTI position tomorrow.

>>860222

I strongly recommend putting 1k in a 3x bear etf. The downside is 1k. The upside is a lot, do the math, something like 200k.

>>860236

faz, vxx, whatever. do your research!

>>860024
Should've bought ACI last week.

tired to tell you

>>860235
>>860220
>>860201

Pic

>>860240
What app is this? I need this.

>lol not buying

volatility is when u make money u fucking plebs m8

>>860240
Thanks for all the help man. Where do you recommend I trade?

I PREDICT

JNUG AND NUGT TO THE MOON

TVIX CAN COME TOO

>just started my etf portfolio today
>all the markets are falling

>>860253

Netdania

>>860257

What do you mean? Like brokers?

>>860209
He's right you know.
Oil is going to be a dead investment in the future. Analysts are predicting the oil price to be set around 25-32 dollars a barrel. Which will wipe out the US energy boom, Russia income, and Saudi Arabia control of the market. Iran oil supply has killed oil prices.

>>860264
we all know how accurate economic predictions are

>>860256
Oil hasn't bottomed out yet. You have to wait until it plummets to 25 dollars. We're still trading on futures that were sold a few months ago.

>>860266
Well its usually shit. But oil is expected to fall even further. OPEC, Iran, US, and Russia are producing and exporting way too much oil. Everyone is going to lose. Putin even said this back in December. His economy wasn't going to be the only one to be hurt by low oil prices. OPEC is suffering, and Saudi Arabia is taking out a lot of loans to maintain their rigs and pipelines. Iran was Obama way to fuck everyone over for ruining his energy boom.

>>860263
I got the app, and saw the top/flop for US markets. Rentech, Inc has 754% increase.

>>860263
Yeah like brokers, online or otherwise. Thanks for all the help thus far by the way

>>860270

It has nothing to do with how much everyone is exporting, it has to do with the fact that fracking is getting more efficient every single day. The operating variable cost of fracking is going to be the lower limit of oil prices for the next long-term.

This is like the most basic application of economics and the shut-down decision ever yet people couldn't be fucked to notice it and kept investing in oil because "it can only go up!"

Doesn't hurt that fracking has special exception from the EPA and Texas banned anti-fracking laws recently. Fracking is going nowhere and thus oil won't go up

>>860292
>Fracking is going nowhere and thus oil won't go up
I worded that weird,
*Fracking is not going away and thus oil won't go up

>gonna sell all my holdings tomorrow
>rebuy next week when panic mode sets in over the weekend

>>860292
>It has nothing to do with how much everyone is exporting

no, it does. the price is also influenced by a whole other shit you failed to mention. disappointing global growth as shown in china, inventory, weakening dollar, rate increase looking less unlikely

>>860289

I can only really speak for scottrade, that's what I use. As long as you're trading with 2k+ The $7 order fee is negligible. Never had any problems with it.

People here have been talking about robin hood, you may want to look into that.

>>860299

Brilliant example of how to identify someone who didn't go to college and instead learned economics from news articles

I take it you don't even know what the shut down decision is (you probably are googling it now) and how it affects free markets huh.

Literally none of those things you listed could influence the price of oil in the medium-long run; a negative shock to supply would allow frackers to use the wells they've been drilling for the past decade, a positive shock to demand would allow the frackers to use the wells they've been drilling for the past 10 years as well.

Any change lower will cut out frackers but their infrastructure won't disappear, it will simply be sold at a discount to the next starry-eye'd entrepreneur or global giant who will also just wait for oil prices to rise so they can use the wells that have been drilled for the past 10 years. Literally the only way for oil to be volatile again is if fracking was outright banned, which is not likely to happen

I don't think you've done your research on just how much shale oil is in the ground and just how pro-fracking the US is

>>860302
Thanks man.

Also as far as rsi, since the rsi for dwti is so high Is that a cause for concern? I personally feel like oil will keep plummeting, but may take your advice of holding until 37 selling dwti and possibly getting back in at a dip (or going long depending on news)

>>860305
You're forgetting the fact that shale producers have stopped extracting oil/gas. They drill but never pull out. They're hedging their bets that the fracking market doesn't collapse like the oil market did in the late 80s. At the moment, everyone is trying to watch what is next for the global oil trade. Iran is suppose to export oil in September I think.

>>860306

DWTI and UWTI are ETNs, not stocks. Their value is not dependent on buyers and sellers, but their underlying index. In this case, WTI. It doesn't matter if nobody buys DWTI, if oil is down DWTI will go up 3x that.

These are tools for traders, they are NOT investments. They can be used to scalp or secure an easy 15% with a swing, but decay and contango will destroy their value over a long period if time.

The only technicals that are important are of the index, in this case, WTI.

>>860313
I didn't forget, thats why I said they've been drilling wells for the past 10 years, I assumed that most people knew what they were doing so I didn't explain it.

That practice is exactly why prices won't go up, because as soon as prices rise all the frackers have to do is hit the on switch, which will flood the market with supply, thus driving prices back down to near the shut-down price, thats my entire point lol

>>860305
AEHAUEUHA UHA UEHAUH Ea e

>>860305
Brilliant example of how to identify someone who didn't go to college and instead learned economics from news articles

>>860299
>>860299
>>860299

>>860317
Well I'm tired so I can't connect two plus two right now. But there is too much supply at the moment. I forgot who said that the days where oil going above 60 dollars are gone. I think 30-40 dollar will become the norm. Now gas prices that a whole another story. I need to read more on oil prices and supply. I need to find a textbook or book on the matter. I'm rusty. A couple of years ago I was on point, but since then I stopped giving a shit for some reason.

>>860299

Although those do influence the price, it all ultimately comes down to supply and demand. See the natural gas market for a clearer example of the shale boom and what happens when there simply isn't enough demand for the massive and cheap supply entering the market.

Texas producers are struggling to stay afloat while northeast shale is set to have record breaking production next month, at already depressed prices. Northeast shale goes for cents, and still floods the market.

>Started my IRA last week
>Put a good portion in S&P 500 as they say to do stocks while young and can handle the risk

Well fuck me. Im already down $200

>>860315
>>860315
Oh, I understand. What I was saying is if oil hits 37 then I may get out of dwti since that's the next resistance level. as for rsi, I guess I wrongly assumed the high rsi of dwti correlated with the low rsi of crude. The low rsi of crude begs oversold (dwti overbought by logic?) But maybe I'm wrong there.

What's your opinion on holding an etf? Especially one like dwti with such a high expense ratio?

>>860305
the dollar and inventory doesn't influence the price of oil in the long run?

what the fuck am I reading

>>860024
Here you go OP

>Never cut on losses
>Ignore the index market
>Get away with pump and dumps
>Gather funds and all in
>Either way you always win
>Retire early

>>860331
This is how you become broke and blame on da jooows.

>>860329

Yeah, when it reaches the support and holds, there should be a bounce, it would be a good time to lock profit. It could also break through the support when you sell, but at that point you should be up a fair amount.

Yeah, WTI (oil) is all that matters, don't even bother with technicals or charting UWTI or DWTI, they're both based on WTI. It's oversold because it's had like 10 red weeks in a row, but that doesn't mean there is a bullish case for it.

Holding these can be either extremely profitable or havoc wrecking. I've personally seen and traded some of DGAZ from 2.5 to 9 in like 5 months, I believe? That is nearly 300% in gains. I've also seen UGAZ go from 18 to 1.70 in nearly the same time. You have to be smart, use stops, and understand good and bad plays. If you're holding during an uptrend like with DWTI, I wouldn't say anything would be wrong with that.

The people holding UWTI are going to get burned very badly.

>>860330
I'd be willing to buy an argument that the value of the dollar could affect the price of oil, but I challenge you to articulate it clearly.

I don't think theres any way inventory levels could affect the medium to long-term price of oil though, the only way it <could> was if you somehow argued that inventory would just keep building up forever, which makes absolutely no sense unless you think there are businesses that operate just to lose money

>>860341
>>860341
Thanks man.

Think I'm going to call a broker tomorrow (know one my family uses). Would I be able to set parameters for more buying etc? Like saying buy x now and buy y every z% drop until a max of Q Funds?

>>860208

>>860354

They should allow you to set buy trailing orders, but you'd have to ask

Good luck and good night

>>860359
Thanks again. Goodnight

A question: When a company offers stock buybacks, does it mean that they're effectively screwed and are just trying to artificially inflate their price?

>>860366
Bringing their PE ratio down

>>860368

I see. I read somewhere that Caterpillar was offering stock buybacks despite having a shitty couple of quarters, so I've been leery of the practice ever since.

>>860366

Buying back shares from the market is a tax-free way to give money back to investors. The value of the stock shouldn't change unless it is a private transaction

>>860024
wait to buy the dip

>>860208
>I was right

I was just joking around too :(

I warned you faggots back in may

>>860024
selling when it is dropping is the worst thing you can do

>>860197
what's your target?

Shemitah incoming

brace urself boys

>>860024
TAKE THE FUCKING PROFITS..... LIQUIDATE! You can always buy back in January.

the market is gonna drop another 2%+ on Monday after more fear mongering sets in during the weekend.

>>861018
I hope you're joking right? There are more literary metaphors for that scenario than any other in business

>>861010
kek I was just reading this thread and thinking hey this guy gets it

>>861023
>>861033
>>861028
how much do you guys think the 500 will drop? I'm willing to go all in at 1600 but at 1800 even I'll just start buying slowly

>>861042
>going all in
>before the final collapse

nigga what?

>>861042
no idea, which is why i have a plan for all scenarios

>>861033
That's what I'm thinking. Either short today or buy on Monday/early next week.

This is good though. If anything, China crashes and burns and then starts to slowly heal. The market crashes and burns and does the same thing. More returns for the next few years, yee haw

>>860024
I'm going down with the ship.
>down $2500

Also trying to find money to invest more.

>>861048
How low do you think it'll go then?

I'm going to start buying at 1800 at 4k a month, then go all in if it breaks 1600 and otherwise keep on investing 4k

GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN, MY DAD WORKS FOR DOW JONES AND HE TOLD ME ITS ALL OVER

NORTH KOREA IS MOBILIZING ITS FORCES,
ITS
FUCKING
HAPPENIGN

>>861088
kind of feel bad for NK though.

They really though "today, this friday, is the time we will spend half or yearly fuel supply to tow some rockets to the border. All the worlds eyes will be on us" and then this happens and people forget what NK is because they don't get to be a part of this

>>861088
if there was an actual threat of war happening, Oil would've popped by now.

Half of what I lost in regular funds, I gained back in a goldfund.

So how oger is it?

>>861115
Play time level, oger

What kind of losses are you sitting on right now guys?

I bought a while ago so I'm still about 300 euro in the green but probably not for much longer. I'm debating selling it all, but it's a tough call.

>>861220
I haven't even logged in to look.. I'm just going to get good and drunk tonight.

I know for a fact that I took a fucking bath on my healthcare fund though :(

>>861220
ugh. in the same boat. lost ~7% in 2 days

>>860209
Isn't the dollar flight that comes with the rate hike supposed to strengthen dollar?

>>861220
I am currently holding larger position I am about $3k up I hope it can go upto 10k
Smaller positions about $500 down

SHOOTING IN A FEDERAL BUILDING NYC, JUST NOW. ITS HAPPENING.

>>860024
I don't understand why people get so obsess with short-term performance of a stock

If you've done your research and maybe your companies are ones that benefit out of a falling oil prices or maybe ones that benefit out of a falling dollar whatever you hold and ride it out. Just chill out for a second,

>>861271
Wolf of wall street has allured a lot of young faggots who think they can become rich by shorting.

>>861227
14 percent down in 2 days. My jimmies remain unrustled.

>>861277
*but I'm still up for the year

You guys are young, so you can weather through this downtrend. You'll make up your losses in the long term. This has always been true of the market.

>>861028
>im literally retarded

>>861274
everyone just needs to chill out. If you've done your research you can reap the rewards in a few years

I probably wasn't going to sell any of my current positions except maybe 1 for like 20 years, and they all pay like 3% dividends so I'm actually hoping for a crash so I can reinvest for more shares and maybe put some more money in. If the market keeps downtrending another 2k or so I'll probably go all in. Stocks I"m looking at now are:

XOM
INTC
DEO
DFS
DFT

Anyone have any favorites of those or suggestions?

>>860024
>Global stock markets are crashing
>investor panic
>The bear is upon us

It has been a good bull, my friends. We're entering a brave new world, without OPEC, without Chinese growth. Nothing is certain.

O' Captain, my Captain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUFWXpYJKaI

>>861042
>1600
>1800
It's going to drop a hell of a lot more. A hell of a lot. Please don't buy at 1800, just don't. If you want a real simple idiots guide, just set up some MAs and watch them on the daily. You won't maximize profits, but you sure as fuck won't buy at 1800, either.

>>861274
Selling ETFs really isn't any more complicated than buying. See above if you're truly entirely mystified by basic price action.

>>861305
>September
They said it wouldn't happen. They said it would only go up. Where are the faggots that strawmanned every post pointing it out, now? >That's what people said in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 hurr it's only going up I'm a stock pro

A few months of clear trends will be upon us when this goes down, and then a few years of an easy uptrend. All you need to do with either is join it when it pulls back a little, and you can only make money. It's really perfect for making money trading, actually. This current sideways shit is terrible.

>>860024
GOING DOWN WITH THE SHIP

>>860208
What did he mean by "how futures are acting right now". I have never cared about stocks etc. and am trying to learn

Lost $600 yesterday, $800 today. 3 years of gains lost in two days. RIP

>>861316
>1400$
>3 year gains
Just stop trading and do something else, srs

>>861316
>1400
You shouldn't be trading. You need at least 10k invested to have some decent return.

>>861320
I had 24k invested, lost 1400 of it

>>861328
I lost 1.5k on 22k invested but im still up 2k for the year, will probably drop all positions midday monday and jump into a 3x short etf for a couple days.

>>861331
I am pretty close to the same. 1.6k down in past couple days. Placed my order. hoping a bit of a bounce on monday when the sell executes and then Mon night I'll put in for the 3x bear

$409 invested in my 401k. now i'm at like $394. i'm pissed

>>861312
/biz/ likes to buy high, sell low.

>>861340
Lol

>>861220
Lets see, I sold some SVXY puts back on the 14th intending to collect some premium, bought some ootm Puts to keep losses from going catastrophic. 2 weeks later, closed out the puts I sold at a small loss, held on to the insurance Puts just in case. I had written them off, but I managed to close them out at 195$ each.

Bought some UVXY puts at about the same time, averaging 500$ per contract on 8 contracts. Sold those for 695$ each on Monday, which is pretty good considering they would have expired worthless. Bought some more puts at a strike of 25 before the price jumped to the low 40s. They're worth about half what they were at the time. I bought a couple more contracts at a strike of 40 for 990 each. Next couple of weeks are going to be interesting.

I might buy some UVXY/UVXY calls next week, depending on whether things continue to shit the bed.

I'm thinking next week we either get a nice bounce or stay relatively flat, and the week after is another potential fall.

Or we just keep shitting the bed starting Monday and down we go.

>>861299

I'm one that believes that there will be another 2008 type correction and that today was just a preview. When that happens I want to get in on

LMT
BA
UTX
RTN

because I think there will be a war. After war I'm going Johnson & Johnson and Proctor & gamble Gener Mills GE all that shit.

>>860258

Tell me why this will happen? I have like $100K in JNUG and ive seen it melt away will it come back? tell me why?

>>861352
QE4

>tfw I'm up 2% on the week
Coal and biotech doing just fine :)

>>861357
>QE4
so am I going to be able to afford that bmw m4?

>said I would dump everything into oil if it hits $32
>suddenly nervous
When does oil stop being profitable?

>>861357

So does that mean near negative interest rates? Rates are already very low? Does that mean increased bond buying? Aren't the bond markets already butt fucked? Can you walk me through situation where gold or w/e goes to ~ 6000 or higher?

>>861366
It's not even profitable now.

>>861360
There were some dope coal stocks this week, yeah, I was locked out but I'd love to have gotten into Arch.

You guys should look into the OTC Markets, its like a different world nobody there cares about logic or the world, its just a money making game. Check CRGP, shit could go to over a penny Monday.

>>861010
Top kek

>>861375
>CRGP
Thanks anon. Probably buy on monday.
Check out AVXL. It could end up being your retirement ticket

>>861375
If the shares are at 0.00 now, I'd only pay the brokerage fee right? But do you honestly think they're going anywhere anymore? They haven't seen any action in months.

sell off monday? or hope for bulltrap and then sell off? Any thoughts?

>>861375
>I was locked out
What do you mean you were "locked out"?

>>860024

>>861305
Australia and NZ will save us friend.

I warned you guys about this day back in 1998 why didn't u listen

>>860029
Why did you assclowns stop using fucking decimals.

>>861445
Probably typical quick recovery, then sell off.

SELL EVERYTHING FUCK FUCK FUCK

Monday is going to be even worse.

>>860024
SELL SELL SELL

BETTER TO LOSE SOME MONEY INSTEAD OF ALL THE MONEY

>>861577
I'm buying leveraged oil stocks. #yolo

A true captain goes down with his ship.

>>860024
>or go down with the ship ?
..........you answered your own question.

>>861578
that is not adviseable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akBdQa55b4
just buy the fucking dip

I own 76k worth of equities and I don't plan on selling any.

The value of my holdings doesn't matter until I retire or need the money. Over that time I will work on lowering my average purchase price.

>>860237

>just looked up vxx
>up 17%

welp, that ship has already sailed.

>>861220
Was long YANG, short BAYTEX, long GOLDCORP as of last Monday and hold a variety of REITS along with a decent sized chunk of AIG bought Dec 2012. Actually up dramatically this week.

>>861759

That's great, you can still have your equities, even more of them if you sell now and buy them back again for a cheaper price in a few months when this is all over. Your call though.

I put $2k into euro and us indices a month. The meme stock crash of 2015 just means i get more shares for my money.

>>861769

it's not over friend. The end has only just begun. VXX still has great upside potential even at ~20. Put in whatever you can afford to flush away. I recommend 1k.

>>861833
VXX is quite possibly the worst vol ETN, it is the most exposed to vix futures contango and is really more of an s&p inverse

>>861803

I'd rather build large holdings over time at a great overall price, without having to worry about tax implications for capital gain

urg I bought about 17500CAD of HIX yesterday (tsx inverse ETF) but I didn't think of getting me HIU which is the same but for the SP500

>>861892
So you'd rather lose 100% of this potential than paying 25% taxes over it? your call bro

>>860035
I would be careful with those technical predictions on oil. Sure oil is a commodity that is being used for speculation, but unlike stocks it really has a very fundamental basis. Oil is burned up everyday and is used in almost every part of our economy.

So I'm not saying oil can't go much deeper, but it's already pretty low and even at the current price many producers are struggling and could go bankrupt any minute, thus making oil more rare.

Additionally I don't think the world economy is slowing down. It has been pretty low for years, but through QE the stock market didn't show the real state the economy was in.

This means the financial system is on the edge for a major correction, but it wont take down commodities with it. I personally think it will be quite the opposite. All major currencies will go down and commodities will therefore go up.

That's why I personally have hedged about 1/5 of my cash holdings with commodity indices and I have no other investments. But please keep in mind, that I'm a long term investor. I try to predict what the market will look like in fife years and I make my investments based on those outlooks. It is certainly possible that commodities and especially oil is going further down for the next couple of weeks / months.

>>861899
what do you think will happen to bond ETFs? Traditionally bond prices have gone up during times of market crash, but this time, the interest rates are already so low, is it wise to have the majority of my funds in a bond ETF?

>>861904
Why do you pair pictures of food with pictures of women?

>>861904
To be honest I don't know much about bonds. As far as I understand it, the interest rates on bonds are way too low compared to the risk of a country defaulting. For example if I fear that a country could default on those bonds any minute, an interest rate of 10% would be high risk, because if the country defaults in less than 10 years I'd make a loss.

So I'd say with the current interest rates bonds aren't really a good deal. Many big investors such as pension funds and insurance companies use them, because they don't know where to go with their money.

However if there will be a major crash with a few 2big2fail banks going down, bond rates will certainly sky rocket. The direct risk of countries like the US going bankrupt will be very visible and this will have direct consequences on interest rates.

So yes prices would go up during a crisis, but so will your risk of loosing everything. If you use bond ETF's that are highly diversified I think it's a good crisis investment.

>>861909
Obviously hierarchy of needs.

>>861220
lost about 10% due to being idiot.
Started trading around a five weeks ago too ;^(

Sold everything, waiting for the happening and i'll probably buy some coca-cola or shit.

>>861911
mine isn't highly diversified when it comes to government vs corporate, i'd think diversified would be worse because companies could default during the equity crash.

>>861899

If there was even a glimmer of oil being near the bottom, I would not have such price targets, but my targets are based off of fundamentals.

Whatever way you cut it; there is simply too much oil in the global market and via US production. The shale boom has created such a surge in production, not only this, but the prices that are a result from this can be much lower than the current price of oil.

Natural gas is also a commodity that has transformed due to shale production.

It has fallen from 4.7 per million BTUs in November 2014 to 2.4 in March of 2015. Production is STILL the same. SHALE production is set to be RECORD high next month.

Oil is even worse, because there is a huge global supply, and Iran may enter the market, as well.

>>861833
Going to agree with this. VXX and UVXY are looking like great opportunities to straddle. Things keep getting worse, vix shoots up to 50+. Things get better like what happened with the last spike, the drop a bunch in value.

Dumb cunts that cry when stocks go down shouldn't be in the market in the first place.

But, then again, if there weren't suckers selling how the fuck would I buy when the stock market is on sale?

With all this talk of a secondary recession, is now a good time to get into SNP500 or is it even worth it anymore?

It looks like a good time to buy, since it's the lowest it's been since 2013, but at the same time it looks like it's going to take a major dip at some point and cascade down the bubble.

>>860035
>technicals

Kill yourself

>>861888

cool, what's better then?

>>862017
>major dip at some point and cascade down the bubble.

Referring to this pattern btw

>tfw China knows how fickle US stock market is, and waited until this crucial moment to trigger a panic and send us into Great Recession 2.0, while they take the #1 spot

>>861943
You are certainly right about what you say, only this isn't something new. Oil already dropped and shale production is in trouble. Of course they produce like crazy, because they don't want to go bankrupt. But they can't sustain this for much longer.

Also the thing with Iran is already kinda priced in. Although the deal isn't through yet.

But like I said, there certainly is potential for oil going even further down. But I don't think it will go bellow 35 or even into the twenties. No matter what a technical analysis might suggest.

>>860024
I'm at a 10k loss right now. It's brutal, but I can't really afford to jump ship now as it would make me an even bigger shabbos goy than if I had just held.

>>862021

My calls have materialized thus far, just keep watching gold.

If you went short on natural gas, like I said, you would have made 7% yesterday via DGAZ.

If you went short on oil, like I said, you would have made another 7% via DWTI.

If you bought some JDST as I suggested gold may have temporarily topped, you would have made an additional 6-12%.

It's no surprise this board believes it is impossible to have gains that exceed the overall market when it doesn't even believe in technical analysis. Keep getting excited with your 3% weekly gains.

I'm up 23% (realized) this week. Go away.

>>862042

>but they can't sustain this much longer

Aha, but how long can they? That's the difference between 30 and 40 oil. No point calling or even attempting to call a bottom until there are indicators that support it. 2 weeks is nothing when contracts are for months or years.

As of now I'm calling a bounce at the 37 area, possibly to backtest the 42 area, then to break down to the mid-low 30s.

Domestic US production in oil has only begun to show the possibility of decline.

Why would the price revert to the 60s just to support inefficient companies, when others can profitably exist at the 30s and 40s?

>>862158
You might be right I really can't tell, but we have completely different perspectives. I don't care what happens in the next weeks, I only care what the long term trends are.

Atm. I'm also somewhat bearish on oil, but I waited the last time oil was down for it to go into the 30 and it didn't. That's why this time I took my chance and bought on somewhat record lows. Even if my predictions are wrong, I'm absolutely positive that at some point in the next 20 years, oil will be much higher again. So even if I bought a bit too early, this is good enough for me.

I'm in no way trying to tell people to buy UWTI right now. But rather than buying into the S&P or DJ right now, I recommend oil or commodities in general.

>>860222
wow gg

>>862158
I have 1.5K to invest, I have no idea what any of this means but with the current upset I see a possibility to make some quick returns, or at least buy and low while prices are low and sell when they rebound.

Please educate my stupid ass, and tell me which stocks to buy right now, and also which ones to short.

Thank you based QL

>>862238
*buy and hold while prices are low

>>862158
I'm guessing (key word is guess here) we'll see a low $30's bounce, Oil companies will be able to hold out for a while because of how optimistic the long term futures market has been, I also think the oil market has become too dependent on geo-politics to be analyzed reasonably at the reasonably at the moment.

Either way I think trading oil volatility will be pretty easy money

>>861904
It really depends on what the Fed decides to do
if they announce interest rate hikes then bonds will go down.
If they announce no rate hikes bonds will probably go up.
If the stock market seems unsafe bonds will also go up (and vice versa) .
I'd stay out of bonds for now though, they're already quite high because of international demand and if the market rallies the bond market will probably suffer.
And I'm assuming you don't mean junk bonds cause they're absolute shit right now

>>862238
unless you understand commodities fairly well I wouldn't take any advice from anyone on /biz/, opinions are all over the place right now and betting on oil isn't that simple

>mfw /biz/ finally gets what it deserves for being non-commital index fund babbies

NEXT TIME PICK A TEAM YA CUNTS

None of you will be smart enough to sell to cut losses. That is why you are the dumb bag holders. Never catch a falling knife

>>860024
>should we sell now to cut losses
Yeah let's just sell everything at a loss

Don't forget to buy it when it goes back up in 2 weeks

>>862288

Classic cognative dissonance, the average investor always holds losses and sell their winners too early. Cutting your losses is something you have to develop if you ever want to be good trader

>>862283
most people aren't smart enough (or lucky enough) to trade through a collapse and lose more money than they would have anyway

pic related, so many pensions and life savings lost because people couldn't just hold on for 2 years

>>862302

Because they didn't sell when they were down 10% hoping for a quick bounce back, instead they sold 2 years later when they were down 60%

>>862314
my point still stands, unless you know what you're doing (most people don't) just ride it out.

I sold everything I had a couple months ago. Figured something like this would happen this year or early 2016.

I don't know when to go back in, this could lead to a much larger crash or this could merely be a dip foreshadowing a crash a few months from now.

Bit of a gamble innit

>>862358
That argument is terrible, stocks for the long run doesn't work if you are investing during 1929 in the U.S., 1989 in Japan, 2008 in China. It would take close to 30 years for you to make your capital back

Jesus Christ I'm ready to just pull out of the entire fucking investment game altogether. I can't fucking do this.

>Invest in UVXY
>loses money
>double down
>lose even more money
>gets to an absolute low point
>sell all UVXY shares just to restructure the portfolio into something much safer mainly using Vanguard
>UVXY soars right after
>all my "safe" buys are down 8%

I'm fucking tired of this. I have no idea what I'm doing, and I thought I did. All I want is to NOT lose money and make slow, steady growth. I'll be happy with that.

>>862367

Your risk mgt and sizing sucks, why didn't you go long blue chip with some hedges like vix or Russell puts, given how cheap insurance was you can just run long and hedged to smooth your volatility and protect your downside

>>862367
Why would you invest in a leveraged (of all types) volatility ETN before anything major happened.
Trying to guess volatility, especially when it depends on some sort of black swan event, is literal voodoo.

>>862370
>>862382
Because I have no idea what I'm doing. I was trying to be all impressive in front of my coworkers and it fucked me over hard.

I've got $1500 to work with in my account right now, I've got mainly lazy investor-type funds in my portfolio. Please tell me what to do with that $1500.

>>862363
Well I guess it's a good thing this is post industrial America then

>>862383
Do nothing and ask again in a week

>>862387
That's what I was thinking. I'm beginning to realize that the point of a "lazy portfolio" is to generate growth over decades, and not concerning yourself with bear or bull markets. What I'll probably do is, next week, I'll put it into one of the less volatile funds and just let it sit, as intended.

>>862387

I was making the point that the stock in the long run argument is a fallacy, it very much depends on the price you buy something. Given the current cape is above 25, one of the three highest ever in the history of U.S. Equity second only to 1939 and 2000 dot com, this would be a bad time to buy and hold

>>862393

*1929

>>862158
>>862248
$35 oil.

>>862359
If we make it out of this one with it being "just a correction", you'll know some banana republic level market manipulation is going on, and the actual crash will be even worse than it would've been "naturally" (it has already been meddled with, so we're heading there).

>>862363
Everyone's an expert in a bull market, as they say. It's only going to go up, so even if it drops, it can only go back up, right? Right.

>>862367
Never double down on a losing trade. If it's losing money, kill it, or hedge it.

>>862383
>>862390
Either learn what to do, or just don't do anything. Wait a few months, set up some MAs, when they look like they're alright, buy in again. Buy an amount every month, too, then, not all at once.

Index investing is great. If you buy a little every now and then. If you buy it all at a top, you're kind of screwed. It works, but assumes that you're buying in all sorts of market conditions, and not just the most overvalued ones.

>>862382
>Trying to guess volatility, especially when it depends on some sort of black swan event, is literal voodoo.
I agree, but this is the seven of the sevens, after all. It's happened like clockwork every other seventh year, so why not this time? Besides, as I said, seven of sevens. Super shemitah bingo cash out double-up night at casino Bullchaser. Everything lines up. We're at the top of the hill, looking out towards the horizon, which is so bright that we don't notice that the next step will send us falling down the other side of that very tall, tall, hill.

>>862393
Oh wait, don't get me wrong I'm not holding anything with any delta exposure right now.
I'm just trying to tell all these people from /pol/ who are here cause they think it's habbening, or anyone without much experience to over react and over trade every market hiccup (which is really all this is at this point), especially if they're a long term investor

/pol/ here

Holy shit guys, reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that you're all retarded.

September is the Jewish Shemitah, the markets will crash into the ground and wars will start all around the world.

I stockpiled gold and silver in July and already having 15% profit, expecting 200% by the end of September, going to buy Lockheed Martin stock next week too.

Well, I usually don't dabble in stock markets and such, but isn't it an advisable thing to get into precious metals in the event of a crash? Looking back at previous bad times they always shot up.

>>862441
Yes, generally. But they're being manipulated somehow.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-07/us-mint-runs-out-silver-same-day-price-silver-plunges-2015-lows

>>862437
baby's first investment, don't come crying back for advice when the equity market stabilizes and gets flooded with money from Europe and China and your doomsday bets become irrelevant again.

>>862451
>baby's first investment
Kek, I already made 50 grand from the last gold bubble.

>when the equity market stabilizes and gets flooded with money from Europe and China
Ahahaha, Europe is getting fucked in exactly 3 weeks. China in will proxy North Korea after a series of bombings by the CIA. Tianjin was only the start, the CIA will bomb more facilities in China in the next weeks.
Also the coming terror acts will affect the stock markets heavily.

You are all literally fucked.

>>862363
>It would take close to 30 years for you to make your capital back

Yeah if you put a massive lump sum in at the top and then never invested again

>>862447
I'm not in the US though. Still, smells fishy. Does this make silver a bad investment nevertheless? If lots of institutions are hoarding the supply, that means higher prices. Unless they're just going to dump it all in the market when the prices get high.

>>862451
This

Not this
>>862453

I'm a newbie who have only run sims and read basic information.

Is this a good time to buy? It looks like a market reset, so it should bounce back, right?

Should I wait a couple of days to make sure it's a reset and not a crash?

>>862470
Good luck timing the market.

Set a few limits for buys if youre so cautious.

>>862453
Exactly, if Europe and China's economies are fucked where are their investments gonna go?

>>862484

treasury bonds, stocks have signifcant overseas exposure, half of the S&P500 earnings are based abroad in places like China and Europe, so if those economies shit themselves earnings will tank hard.

>>861578
UWTI
Put in 1000. Get $35000 by the end of the year. Oil is at it's bottom.

>>862488
What makes you think Oil is at its bottom?

>>862491
saudis can stand cheaper prices and iran is about to glut glut glut the market

>>862484
by the looks of it not into america. probably brazil

>>862494
If they can stand cheaper prices that would mean we aren't at the bottom...

>>862499
sorry nig its not aty the bottom

>aylmfao

>>862491
I'm from the oil industry.

Everyone is talking about oversupply. The fact of the matter is we are at 2% oversupply. At current prices more expensive produces are going to have to shut down drilling operations and oil will go back around $50 a barrel.

If there is a war or an economic uptick will will be right back around $100 a barrel.

UWTI was $40 last October. It's less than a dollar now. There isn't a ton of downside and a huge potential upside.

>>862503
But isn't smart money buying it when crude hits 37? Crude will most likely still decline to at least 37 relatively soon. Sure, by january we may see it climb back up.

>>862487
it's more like 1/3 and the top 10 companies make up like half the S&P market cap.
The US stock market is only getting more attractive to international investors, especially because the Fed refuses to do anything whatsoever

>>862488
this is a joke for anyone seriously considering doing this

>>862504
I personally don't think it will go that low.

>>862503
except leveraged etn's don't work like that at all unfortunately

>>862505
Why is it a joke?

>>862505

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b53aed3a-9cdd-11e4-971b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3jaQODV8x

"Foreign sales account for more than two-fifths of total S&P 500 turnover"

>>862509
Well for one, a lot of oil companies sell the majority of their oil in futures contracts (especially the ones most vulnerable to cheap oil).
So even the companies that use expensive extraction methods will be able to survive for a little while longer.

But mainly because leveraged ETN's are the worst possible long term investment vehicles, they reset daily and a 1% gain followed by a 1% loss the next day leaves you at a net loss
(this has seriously been explained so much already)

>>862523
ok 2/5 vs 2/6, I was still closer than what you said

>>862530

my point still stands. A strong dollar will mean shitty earnings for 40% of the S&P earning, which is foreign currency deonimated. Chinese and European weakness will translate directly into US stocks because most large cap us stocks are large multinationals.

>>862530
Has anyone a clue when the first wave of those futures are going to close? There has to be some date in the future, where those US companies are going to take a huge hit.

Also what do you think will happen, when the US congress is overriding the iran deal veto of obama. I think the congress has its loyalty with Isreal and they are shilling hard to drop the deal.

>>862459
I'm not in the US either. The manipulation is with the market itself, though. It doesn't matter where you are, you'll be buying the same ETFs (unless you mean to buy physical silver).

No, it's probably a good investment, since they've been hoarding it as you said. But I wouldn't trust the ETFs to reflect the true value of it, so if you really do mean to own silver, I'd recommend physical silver and not paper silver.

>>862503
>>862506
Oil hit $35 last recession. It's almost there, and it's not even an official "recession" yet, in that sense. Yeah, it'll go that low, certainly. Last time the saudis weren't actively trying to fuck the US, and we didn't have important new players like Iran flooding it with even more. It's not going to jump up, because they made it go low on purpose in the first place.

The more expensive oil producers are american. They're the ones that'll have to shut down.

>>862508
Why the fuck would you buy a leveraged ETF, anyway? What is this, the 80's? Bull x3? Buy on marigin, ya luddite. Get with the times. I bet you call your orders in, too.

>>862560
So you don't recommend DWTI?

>>862565
I'm too lazy, so I would go with that. But if you really believed that they were up to something, physical silver would be better.

But again, yeah, I would just buy it on margin.

Does your stocks have a lower value than when you bought them?

Wait.

Does the stock has a higher value than when you bought them?

Sell.

Patience is key.

>>861351
Way ahead of you buddy. BA is the only stock I hold on its own. War is coming.

>>862462
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34029202

The CIA comes into play again. Just as planned.

>>861888

YOU FLAMING FAGGOT NO NOTHING NERD, ANSWER

>>862577
Idk why this is so hard for people to understand. The DOW , S&P and NYSE composite all have "historical" graphs you can click on

The fuck is everyone freaking out abouy when all we did is go back down to the record highs of this time last year?

You all knew it was being inflated with QE money.

>invest an amount of money you can live without
>so you won't need it back with haste
>if the market suddenly goes down
>you can just wait until it recovers
therefore an economic crash won't do you shit.

So.... Monday. Buy $TVIX & $UVXY, then sell Tuesday?

>>862437
fucking liar, I bought gold in july and I'm all in the red just because of it

>>862283

>All of you will be dumb enough to sell to cut losses.

>>862383
> Because I have no idea what I'm doing. I was trying to be all impressive in front of my coworkers and it fucked me over hard.

I know that feel, bro. My first fuckups were in a $40K account. I've made bigger fuckups in a $400K account 15 years later. Made it back too, but it took a couple of years.

If you had $1500 on the line, consider it very cheap tuition, Anon. And every time you make a trade to prove yourself right, or to prove that dickbag in the next cubicle wrong, you're going to look at this motivational poster, and you're going to say "Pride? Trading for fuckin' Pride? Fuck pride. If I fucked up and my position hits my the loss limit I set when I bought the position, my ass goes down. Anything else is just pride fuckin' with me."

>investing in the scam that is the stock market

Top kek. Enjoy your fking losses you fking plebs. Instead of spending that 50k on your own business (which could potentially give you returns in the 1000s) or on a holiday or something useful you spend it gambling in the stock. In an arena where the big Wall Street guys will eat you for fucking breakfast. I hope you lose everything and it keeps going down. Because every single of you is a leach off real producers. You try to piggy back on the hard work of companies thinking you'll make a profit. Fuck you leaches you're no better than NEETs.

>>864696
I feel you man.
I really gotta research small business more.

>>864696
Sticky pls

>>864696
the truth tbh, im still going to invest and make bank tho #yolo

>>864696
Yeaaaaaahhhhh, except if you diversify enough long term stocks are usually safe and have high yields.

Day trading is for suckers. If you arent investing for a long haul your doing it wrong.

>>864727
lmao this fag really thinks he is Warren Buffett. Protip, daytrading, just like "long term investing" requires quantitative analysis, otherwise you will fail as well. The reason why so many idiots still believe the "muh value investing" maymay, thinking you can make money with a few babby tier formulas and watching some CNBC shilling is that many of you actually make money. Really. But mainly that's because stocks, unlike more liquid assets tend to move in trends, so it's either up or down on a long enough time frame. Which gives coin flippers plenty of time to brag on chinese cartoon imageboards, while ignoring the fact that they in fact do not have a quantifiable edge whatsoever over the markets.

Same goes for daytrading, but since the transaction volume is higher and holding time lower, they go bankrupt sooner. But on a long enough timeline, the same goes for you coin flippers as well. Otherwise this wouldn't explain the high mortality rates of hedge funds and how comes a coinflip portfolio consistently beats the average investor's returns

>>864734
why are you guys even on /biz/?
what is this meme-tier shit?

MONDAY IS PREPARING TO BE WORST THAN FRIDAY AND WE'RE NOT EVEN AN HOUR AWAY FROM MARKET OPEN

ITS FUCKING OVER BOYS, TAKE YOUR MONEY AND RUN FOR THE NEAREST SHELTER

>>864734
Someone is butthurt. Did you lose all your money daytrading like a moron?

>>864849
how did europe fair?

china australia and india were buttfucked about 9 hrs ago

>>864859
We're being slaughtered here, not as bad as Asia though. Almost all markets are down like 3-5% and it feels like all hell's breaking loose.

>>864859
Dax down about 5%

I called this two weeks ago when DIS gapped-down. I sold all my shares that week, the writing was on the wall. Why didn't you listen /biz/?

https://archive.moe/biz/thread/843212/#844345

>>864865
>https://archive.moe/biz/thread/843212/#844345
how did you know though?

as in how were we to trust you?

>>864865
>>864868
You just need flags, like /pol/ got.
Then you'd see Mr. Goldberg's Israeli flag

>>864869
>>864865
mfw I will never be a business insider, knowing about the happening days, weeks or even months before it happens

mfw not born into upper-jew family

why even live.

DOW down over 600 points

Brutal

>While he uses plenty of data to back up his claims, [William] Bernstein also focuses on the important behavioral issues that are the real problem for most investors. In Rational Expectations, he broadly defines three groups of investors by their behavior:

>Group 1: The average small investor, who does not have a coherent asset-allocation strategy and who owns a chaotic mix of mutual funds and/or individual securities, often recommended to him or her by a broker or advisor. He or she tends to buy near bull market peaks and sell near bear market troughs.

>Group 2: The more sophisticated investor, who does have a reasonable-seeming asset-allocation strategy and who will buy when prices fall a bit (“buying the dips”), but who falls victim to the aircraft simulator/actual crash paradigm, loses his or her nerve, and bails when real trouble roils the markets. You may not think you belong in this group, but unless you’ve tested yourself and passed during the 2008–2009 bear market, you really can’t tell.

>Group 3: Those who do have a coherent strategy and can stick to it. Three things separate this group from Group 2: first, a realistic appraisal of their true, under-fire risk tolerance; second, an allocation to risky assets low enough, or a savings rate high enough, to allow them to financially and emotionally weather a severe downturn; and third, an appreciation of market history, particularly the carnage inflicted by the 1929–1932 bear market. In other words, this elite group possesses not only patience, cash, and courage, but also the historical knowledge informing them that at several points in their investing career, all three will prove necessary. Finally, they have the foresight to plan for those eventualities.

>Group 1 usually finds out the hard way that financial markets can be unforgiving. These are most likely the people that have completely given up on investing at his point after blow-ups from the tech bust or the great financial crisis. They assume the markets are rigged or function like a casino. Most people in this group try to make money through lottery ticket-style speculation. It never ends well and the psychological scars can endure for a very long time.

>>860264
Personally im enjoying these low oil prices. Petrol is pretty cheap right now for cars.

>>864851
>>864826
>being this assblasted
Don't worry goys, remember to buy the dips and that stocks always go up. Who needs a quantitative approach when you can just buy and hold your favourite stocks, and be a winner, just like everybody else!

>I invest in gold and silver

>>864969
>be a good goyim and invest in normal stocks
Kek

>>860222
buy and hold means 30 years, not year to year.

if DOW hits down 1100 points then the entire market will halt

>>860327
If you were a ww2 vet and started a 401k, you would have dealt with crashes in the 60s, early 70s, early 80s, the tech bubble, and the great recession. You still would have an amazing portfolio.

Compound interest and dividend gains>short term market fluctuations

>>865003
Unless you retired right before a crash

This is probably it, the end of capitalism.

Dow down 850 points

>>865013
This sounds too absurd but scary.

>>865013
lmao what

>>865013
>>865029
>>865019

>>865013
they said the same shit in 2008, now is a time to make money

POL WAS RIGHT

REPEAT P O L W A S RIGHT!

>>860024
fuck I lost at least 200€ from yesterday, all my investments are down as fuc

>>865040
FUCKING JEWS
FUCK

US market Halt soon

Up 10% at open, let's go for a 15% day

Unfortunately funds stuck shorting oil and natural gas, wanted to scalp 10% on TVIX.

>>865040
>not even september
>not prepared yet
>tfw

>>865115
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnGl8Nz0oLE

are you paying attention yet?

>>865013
Hahahahahahaha!

I can't prepare for doomsday. Too busy DCAing.

>>862437 here. We told you so. Why didn't you listed?

Majority of /pol/ is sitting on gold and silvers bars right now, eating popcorn and watching the world burn.

Have fun hanging yourselves.

>>865129

ALEX JONES HERE,

JESUS IS COMING BACK AND WE'RE GOING AFTER YOU NEW WORLD ORDER SCUM!!!

BUY MY FUCKING WATER FILTERS!

>>861568
invest in helium as more people will try to commit painless suicide

Will this effect the world economy or just USA?

Ausfag looking to buy up on the Australian Stock Exchange, but don't know enough about economics to make an intelligent decision

>>865189
Gas is down, ford is up. Invest in a v8 and close the garage door.

>>865198
Australia closed at -4.23%. Tomorrow Australia gets fucked hard.

>>865209
I have only dabbled in a little bit of stock trading before and made a quick buck, so I'm not extremely well versed on the topic.

Are there any particular sectors/industries that are dropping like a rock?

>>860029
>66.66

>>865198

Invest in Appen.

I was too a afraid to look at natural gas this morning but now I see it's doing very well, relative to everything else.

>>865222
trips recognize dubs.

buy buy buy!

>>865223
Thanks, will check it out

>>865220
Invest into cash, gold bars and silver bars. Oil is 50% chance, depends on how Saudis play their cards in the future. Everything else get fucked.

Is it too late to join the short train?

Talk to me fam

>Dow down less than 3%

Well so much for nothing.

>>865220
Steel, coal and iron ore.

>mfw invested in iron ore just last week
I though it couldn't get worse! How long until the next commodity boom?

>>865248
And I should point out. These are still dropping. Do not buy until resources until we see September through. And coal will never recover.

15:30 GMT is the sell

10 minutes...

>>865246
Basically just a half hour liberating cowards of their money, then a down day.

>>865263

goldman kikes give me a job

>>865182
shill detected

>>865203
impossible with modern engines and emission control systems. and decat is a real hassle.

>>864966
>stocks always go up
but they do...

>>860305
Economics is the same as astrology anyway

>>865233
dubs recognise trips recognising dubs