/biz/ - Business & Finance

Get off my fucking board you commie.

>>8488073
Yeah and every person that actually has a job gets the rate at which they pay tax significantly increased, just so you NEET virgin cunts can continue to sit around jerking off to anime and getting a UBI for it.
Id like to hear how giving people free money will make them get a job, or make wages overall better.

1k a month for basic bills? Even if it's implemented, poorfags will abuse it like they do with Wic.

Gib income plx

>>8488073
Also, fuck you commie piece of shit

>>8488073
It is possible that universal basic income frees up enough talent to create more products and services that were previously available. It does seem like a one way experiment though, if you stop supporting the 80% that aren't as capable, extreme social problems will result. Maybe in two centuries when a Star Trek type of society with essentially infinite energy will develop.

>>8488073
Damn these lazy fucking millenials. Get a fucking job.

>>8488073
Where are you from?
Can you imagine your country paying ubi in bitcoin?

>>8488168
Fuck off boomer. Stellar is already doing UBI.

I'm all for UBI but only you also eliminate every other form of government handout. Just have UBI and nothing else.

No market is truly a free market so long as laborers aren't allowed to opt out of it if they so choose. Workers are effectively coerced into working and punished with homelessness and starvation if they refuse, and employers leverage this fact to their great advantage and profit.

>>8488136
Most flat tax proposals I've seen to fund a UBI have their break-even point (ie, you're paying as much tax as you're getting in UBI) somewhere around 50k-60k. With a progressive tax it's even higher.

>>8488073

> Give me free money for doing no work.
> The money will come from "somewhere"

You need to come up with a plan now for what to do after you kill off the 1% and take all their money.

Even if we completely ignore the fact that it's literally communism, consider the following. It's completely and utterly ridiculous and can be disproven with a napkin calculation.

>Take a figure which you consider to be a "Reasonable" UBI
>Multiply it by your country's population
>See how much it'll actually cost

Commies can't even do basic maths. Nobody ever replies when I point this out.

>>8488073
what if you own a business? this will not work. if i get paid min wage for running a FUCKING BUSINESS i shut the doors. fuck you. fuck your socialism. fuck off.

>>8488214
I agree, I think most other entitlements and labor protections like minimum wage and labor unions could be done away with if replaced with an effective UBI.

Though I could see that playing out like the following:

>Give up SSI, welfare, unions, and minimum wage in exchange for a UBI
>Works great, but some conservicucks are still mad about muh handouts and stage some calamity that shakes public faith in UBI
>repeal UBI
>don't get back the other safety nets because each one took decades of political action to win
>ancap dystopia unlocked

>>8488221
Idiot
Youre not coerced into working
Youre coerced into feeding yourself
Go grow potatoes inna woods for dat freedom
You have the freedom to starve
Are you even serious?

UBI is the ultimate cuckery. The rich can remain rich and the poor have literally no incentive to improve. I'm all for it.

>>8488073
I will make over 100k this year as a mechanical eng. for a power company. I started out cutting grass, then I was a certified high pressure welder and millerite.

Faggots like you are nothing but lazy pussies.
Please save me your compassion I have no desire to be equal in a pussy society like yours

QED

>>8488073
Fuck off, commie. For fuck sake, we really need another Pinochet.

>>8488276
>You have the freedom to starve
>Are you even serious?

Implies your life is worth something in and for itself. False premise.

>>8488136
>Id like to hear how giving people free money will make them get a job, or make wages overall better
When people no longer worry about job security, they feel more comfortable pursuing avenues of income that they enjoy.
Also, when a job termination has less influence over you, then you're more likely to fight for higher wages through such means as strikes and arbitration.
>>8488214
That's the premise. All forms of likely subsidies would be combined and means tested. Earning over a threshold would also reduces your UBI.
>>8488221
A worker's choice is LITERALLY the definition of the free market, ya dunce.
>>8488242
There are hundreds of thousands of social service jobs that can be removed. Workers will move into jobs that benefit society, rather than filling a mindless bureaucratic necessity.

>>8488266
Youd get ubi on top
Everybody gets ubi! Who pays the ubi? Who cares! Ive got loads of free time now to draw period blood mandalas and tell you that the present is masculine

>>8488312
>>8488312
good pasta. there are only NEETs and programmers on this board

>1 post by this ID
2/10 bait faggot, have fun eating popcorn watching this board chimp out baka

its literally impossible to think of a future without basic income.
There WONT be a job for everyone

the 1% is getting richer and richer.
one day they will own ALL the money in the world

they MUST redistribute it or else they will kill 99% of the population and will live alone

>>8488166
The problem is that the number of secretly creative people held down by wage slavery and financial pressures is much lower than the number of people who will just live off bennies for the rest of their days

>>8488136
Hey dumbass, there aren't going to be any jobs in a few years. Automation guarantees socialism.

>>8488341
What if the 99% just lives as kind of servants for the 1%, sort of plantation style? That way the wouldnt have to kill anyone.

>>8488324
They wouldn't pursue avenues of income, they already have that, remember?
They'd get hobbies. Think gender studies

>>8488364
So they spend their money on hobbies.
Someone is now able to sell more hobby supplies if they so wish..

HOW ABOUT THIS:

UBI but that increases the more you work.

It starts out at 0, and for every year you work it increases by $50 a month

Work for 10 years, you get $500 a month
Work for 40 years, you get $2000 a month

This way people are still incentivized to actually work

>>>>8488341
This world would be perfect with 100 mill people

>>8488356
yea but they dont NEED that many servants
thats literally what i mean by there wont be a job for everyone

and they wont KILL people literally but people will die starving
like literally fast forward maybe 10-20 more years and Amazon and Google and Apple own all the money in the world and they can literally choose who gets to eat

>>8488341
The rich are getting richer but so are the poor

>>8488380
So china gets to sell us yoga mats
If the government is in a deficit, taking loans, does it finance ubi by deficit spending? Literally printing money and hand it to people?
If i was chinese, id sell the yoga mat. Id immediately convert the ubi to gold, though

>>8488258
>mfw my prediction was true and commies can't into second-grade arithmetic

>>8488073
Landlords would take everyone’s UBI though - we need a radical rearangement of property relations for UBI to be implemented properly

>>8488415
All tests and experiments in UBI suggest that it will save a significant amount of money for governments.

That's right, paying your citizens a guaranteed wage will actually save you money.

>>8488430
THIS. The problem isn’t the distribution of fiat currency, the problem is the distribution of land and assets.

>>8488447
ANC please go. Kaffirs aren't welcome here.

>>8488442
See:
>>8488258

Give me a number about how much you think it'll cost.

>>8488447
Also issues with citizenship etc.. you trump fuckers can say all you want but the truth is united state’s largest economy (california) literally runs on having a massive class of unskilled workers who are unable to organize due to their precarious citizenship status.

Clearly UBI would have a detrimental effect on undocumented immigrants, but this effect would ripple upwards into nearly all sectors of the California economy, reducing profit-margins for nearly everyone.

UBI is the only hope society has since robots and automation will eventually replace ALL OF THE JOBS. Let the productivity of robots pay for our lives and let freedom ring

Remember when Evolution and Survival of the Fittest was in style? I wish that would make a comeback. Nonproductive leeches need to die.

>>8488499
California is the economic powerhouse it is precisely because of unskilled and undocumented immigrant labor - implementing UBI would efface that entire group of people essentially. More radical solutions are necessary if UBI would be properly implemented.

We need something though, the way stuff is going right now.. I guarantee there will be major political crises down the road. To speak nothing of the upcoming economic crisis coming as well.

>>8488276
nigger land isnt free

>>8488515
tell me, what do you produce?

>>8488508
Except for my job, which is programming robots. Stay poor!

>>8488120
>>8488160
>>8488242
>>8488266
>>8488318

How's that commie, you fucking imbeciles? It's full on libertarian. Current government programs are ineffective, so just stop wasting money on them and make UBI happen. Not only that but any conditional support is counter-productive, you have to stay poor in order to rip off unemployment benefits, you have no incentive to WORK and on top of everything is promotes rent seeking behavior. KYS 80 IQ retards.

>>8488548
That's fine - there will always be some jobs done by humans, but 90% will eventually be replaced. I myself make wine, which will be relatively safe from automation as well - but I'll take a UBI any day.

>>8488382
And now people are not incentivized to take a risk and open businesses or develop new things, or pursue education, or or or ..

>>8488573
+1 helicopter ticket for you sir. Either explain where the money comes from or stop trying this bullshit.

>>8488499
If anything UBI will make immigrants life even more hell, as citizens will have even less incentive to compete with them in unskilled labor without any kind of prospect

Ubi sucks because its universal, without conditions. Think pragmatic my dudes.
First, implementation. Lets say germany does ubi of 500 euro a month for every citizen. Congrats, i as a german can now sell my marriage so that some asshole from mocambique can feed his family. They earn 500 euro a fucking year in mocambique. Also, do only citizens, or also residents get ubi? If residents are included, expect every hole in every whore to have an adress. Youre underestimating how.diffefent places in the world are, how little buying power a person 5k miles south has compared to you and how much 85% of this world would do for a "free" 500 bucks a month.
Second, expansion. Is the aim to introduce ubi to every place in this world? It should be, as otherwise these populations will out immigration pressure on your country. See, ubi, just like socialism, needs expansion, else it fails. Why? An industrial society that does not have ubi will be more competitive than one that does. The former has an advantage because the "workers" are a tad more stressed and worried and, thus, DRIVEN. So, thats unfair, right? Workers unite! Ubi for all! Its not good to.have a system that demands that kind of homogeneity because, as laid out in point one, we just arent there yet. This world is a bunch of tribes with crude iron swords, not the fucking Borg.

Ben Shapiro said: when we have the multiplicator from star trek, we can talk ubi. We.dont. our economy is deiven by scarcity. Until then, people qill need to use their heads a lottle more.

>>8488612
It means people will work through their 20s and when they actually have a good idea and are mature, then can start a business.

>>8488616
You strip MEDICAL, EDUCATIONAL and OTHER support and grant, mainly UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, FOOD STAMPS, and shit like that and use that money on UBI. This money is already being spent ineffectively on bunch of ineffective bullshit which doesn't combat poverty.

>>8488625
Yeah also this. My argument is that at least in the context of California, the economy as it is set up now pretty much runs on unskilled immigrants without citizenship.

>>8488346
Keep telling yourself that faggot. Id like to see an automated farm hahaha

>>8488688
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/07/world/automated-farm-harvest-england/index.html

>>8488341
>this is what bernouts actually believe

>>8488639
No, it's exact fucking opposite, first of all you will never get UBI of 500 EURO, we're talking 70-120 EURO realistically for US and EU. If you're poor you DON'T HAVE INCENTIVE TO WORK. Once you're "rich" enough you LOSE benefits of being poor. Once you have UBI you DO NOT have free medicine or education anymore. If you fuck up, you FUCK UP your life for good. If you don't have money, government isn't going to give you food, you fucking starve. There is no "safety" involved. What is involved, is stripping down pointless and useless government jobs which try to "effectively allocate" the same resources which will be distributed on UBI TODAY and they always fucking fail.
Citizenship doesn't matter and is out of scope of discussion.

Taxation that goes into social welfare programs and infastructure is quintessential communism. Prove me me wrong.

>>8488073
Please die in a fire you lazy fuck.

>>8488688
farming as we know it will be/is being reinvented. unironically we will see new paradigms in all areas, ubi goes hand in hand with this.
people will be better educate, more able to follow their passions, and we'll see crazy innovation and progress. the sense of all being in it together will be much stronger. everyone will know a better economy = more UBI and it'll be a great feedback loop of not fearing the robots. coal mining hicks will literally be able to spend all day hunting or whatever and end up as incidental ecologists and shit.
idk, eliminating the rat race of basic survival will do wonders. its the only thing im optimistic about on this gay earth

>>8488073
>Wages would be dictated by societal pressures, rather arbitrary industry profit margins.

Not accurate. There would be both, to what extent they modify each others influence under a UBI is precisely unknown.

For example, people will always not be satisfied merely with what they need. They will want more money than they need if people continue to express the behavior, which is widespread, of wanting to buy things they don't need.

Honestly don't think business would change much under UBI, but society would in theory be freer, with less poverty and all that comes from it, and probably much happier and satisfied overall. Nearly every structural problem created by modern capitalism can in theory be addressed by UBI.

Its important that people start thinking about it and taking it seriously. Its the next evolution of society, and without it, I think civilization breaks down and we go back to the dark ages or end up in an ever more distressing dystopia I don't know which is worse.

>>8488073
BernieBros get the noose too.

>>8488318
You need to get back to pol, you literal piece of dogshit.

>>8488382

This kind of thing has been proposed as reverse income tax of sorts.

>This way people are still incentivized to actually work

I think this is a dim view of humanity. People will work. Its not necessarily obvious.

People probably had the same view of people in feudal times when considering democracy. They'd look at people and say, why would they ever work for themselves?

People against UBI are literally retarded.
Why the fuck would we evolve society to a point where we can automate everything and have robots do everything for us BUT only the 1% gets to benefit from it while watching 7 billion people die of starvation??
uuuuuhhh

>>8488656


No money ever comes from government benefits. What you are avoiding mentioning is that you want to pay for it by threatening violence against productive people. My response is may you be damned

>>8488073
>$1000/mo
>250 million eligible Americans & another 20 million illegal aliens who will apply for it
>$3 trillion yearly bill, triple Obama's biggest military bill ever
>raise taxes on the rich to pay for it
>the rich leave again
>now gibless, the masses riot and America falls

NO SORROW FOR SOROS

GTFO COMMIE

>>8488797
People will never ever ever ever be satisfied. It's about goods and services. As long as you want to buy something, economy can happen. If we all suddenly owned acres of land, gigantic mansions and robot slaves, that doesn't mean that economy will die in the slightest, quite the opposite, we each would start wanting to buy star trek ships or whatever else, and similarly there would be people coming up with new ideas of goods and services to provide.
You could argue that there is technological limit of some sort and once we hit that economy will stop growing (and it could be now to be honest as new tech inventions are nowhere near as efficient/game changing after the internet) but that's muddy water.

>>8488447
>the problem is the distribution of land and assets.

The president is a real estate developer

Guess what industry doesn't have to pay taxes on a half million dollars capital gain on real estate

Guess what the vast majority of wealth is held as

>>8488273

Liberals would NEVER become stingy with government handouts to the poor. There is 0 chance in hell the same people who want tampons to be free would suddenly decide that there should only be a single government handout.

>>8488873
Productive people are ALREADY PAYING FOR THIS, you fucking IMBECILE!!!!!!!! You are ALREADY PAYING! And you paid since 1950! and in 1960! Welcome to earth.

>>8488515
I look at all the miserably unhappy people here and just marvel at why many of you want to create a hyper-competitive hellworld of success or the abyss. It would grind you fuckers into dust. Suicides here weekly.

>communism

>>8488878
Non-means tested UBI.

>>8488942
no means no
Neck yourself.

>>8488952
Nah rack off cunt I'll fuckn deck u

>>8488888
>People will never ever ever ever be satisfied.

Are you proving my point?

I agree. People will never be satisfied, which means they will work for more than the "minimum".

UBI is for solving problems like homelessness, starvation, medical expenses. It replaces food stamps, medicare, HUD, all of it. All of these things are gigantic bureaucratic nightmare zombie corporate/government hybrids that don't work.

There will probably have to be some sort of rent control to keep real estate from basically colluding to jack everyone's rent to the ceiling, but it would be cheaper to replace all those services with a cash payment for the basics "BASIC" income implies.

Before anyone worried about robots taking all the jobs, we had an absolutely disgraceful combination of wasteful government spending on totally ineffective public services resulting in (my hometown), streets and jails filled with mentally ill and people living in vans and tent cities

In the end, though, the UBI sells itself.

Go die in a gulag, you fucking commie.

>>8488656
Unnecessary? Nah... food stamps really help a lot of the poorest. Yes, a few may abuse the system, but overall it is necessary.

>>8489022
You are retarded. That is all.

>>8488540
Business solutions for a company that takes money from people like you. And that's why I'm not worried UBI will ever becoming a thing. It's a bad idea, yes, but more importantly, the Jews will never allow it.

>>8489050
And now they will use UBI to buy food stamps. Why is that necessary? You realize most countries do not have food stamps?

>>8488616
+1 Heli ride coming up!

>>8488266
uh-oh we got an edgey business man that's blaming everyone and everything else other than himself for his failing business, uhm if your business is failing it's probably shit and time to try something else, you entitled business retards are the worst, the whole point of running a business is providing what society wants, if you're not making money you are doing that so you deserve to fail it was never "the commies" that caused you to run your failing business you TARD take some responsibility

>>8488073

For all you retards out there that think this is a good idea.

Minimum wage is UBI already. Either work, make something, be disabled, or die

Why do people signal so hard against a UBI? It's economically viable and it's not contradictory to a libertarian standpoint, I'm a fucking staunch libertarian and I'd rather that if I'm being taxed it's going to a UBI that's good for the economy than being dumped into a fucking welfare program feeding fat niggers in the hospital

>>8488341
>they MUST redistribute it or else they will kill 99% of the population and will live alone

My dream. This is why UBI will never be a thing. We'll let you die first before we ever give you our money.

>>8489178
"you're only an entrepreneur if you run profit in a declining economy with aggressive and oppressive regime"
-wise Russian guy who went to immigrate to London and start a wine shop there.

>>8489095
>Unnecessary? Nah... food stamps really help a lot of the poorest. Yes, a few may abuse the system, but overall it is necessary.

/Agriculture/ here...

Food stamps are nothing but a corporate welfare check written to food processors, the biggest corporate conglomerates, the ones that have their lobbyists write the entire farm bill.

Its grossly expensive and inefficient. It promotes the absolute worst consumerist and welfare mentality of all. For example, here is some shitty not-real second-tier "money". Oh, and you can buy whatever plastic wrapped junk food you want but worthless for any other purpose.

Lets remove the middleman. Just give them cash and the taxpayer will save the money that is currently being funneled straight to Cargill and Monsanto

>>8489184
It's not fucking viable, do some basic fucking maths for once you stupid commie.

>>8489184
Because they are whitetrash with low intelligence capacity. The same thing as with commieliberals but on the other spectrum. Show them bone, they start barking.

>>8489191
And yet you fund affirmative action?

>>8488701
Harvesting is not farming you dumb faggot

>>8489252
Please show me your derivation that shows why a UBI would be a bad idea you autist
I'm gonna assume you're a pseud who doesn't know shit about what he's talking about so please get >>>/out/

>>8489286
>Take a figure which you consider to be a "Reasonable" UBI
>Multiply it by your country's population
>That's how much it will cost

Go ahead, show me how much it'll cost. Conversely, you can divide your country's welfare expenditure by the population and see how much we'll all get without jacking up taxes.

I repeat, you're a fucking retard.

>>8489331
>non means-tested
Wrongo!

>>8489345
If it's means tested, it's not a UBI. It's just a welfare payment. At least do a basic level of research on your own opinions.

>>8489331
>what is wealth movement through the population
>replace welfare programs that are far more clunky and expensive by allowing civilians to choose
>hurr durr something costs money

are you actually single digit iq

>>8488773
Sounds like communism to me. Sugar coat it anyway you want commie.
Giving people free money will give them freedom to do what they want, but are they really going to make the most of it? How will you enforce people to not sit at home smoking weed and playing games? Welfare leaches already show us why a ubi is a terrible idea commie.

>>8489385
>If it's means tested, it's not a UBI. It's just a welfare payment.
>he thinks a UBI is a random amount of money without any factorization of living costs and basic family expenditures

sad!

At least by having useless McJobs you give everyone the opportunity to do a baseline level of effort to support themselves and put in extra to get out of the min. wage

UBI is an encouragement of sloth and would create a permanent underclass of dependents, not productive and guaranteed not to end well

I would accept UBI on one condition: anyone who opts for it be voluntarily sterilized, there's really no other way.

>>8488382
genius desu

>>8489252

42 million people on food stamps

Lets assume about $1k per month for rent, food at $100/wk, medical insurance, a lttle extra.

42,000,000 * $1000 per month = $42 billion

$42 billion * 12 months: 5x10^11 or about $0.5T per year

That money of course flows straight back into business for goods and services.

Anyway, $0.5T per year replacing Obamacare, HUD, Food Stamps, disability, etc.

Look at the chart.

If it replaces 1.369T in social security, unemployment, and $1.106T Medicare and Health spending, parts of other benefit programs.... and you eliminate the bureacracies associated with them...

You are looking at a cost savings up from of about $2 trillion dollars a year which can go right back in taxpayer's pockets


So APOLOGIZE

>>8489387
No, really. Look what would happen if every single cent of "dem programs" was spent on a UBI. It's a simple calculation.

>>8489415
So now you're saying that higher living costs means you get more, and that someone in NYC will more than someone in rural Kentucky? What exactly do you think the difference is to any other form of welfare, you fucking retard?

>>8489428
There is already a sloth class existing which is living off crime and welfare. UBI will hurt this class the most.
>>8489404
>forces people to do something
Look at this commie!

>>8489447
So it's only for people on food stamps?
It's not for everyone, as is the entire point of a UBI?

If you think any cash welfare payment is a UBI, can you name a single county other than the US which doesn't have one? In my country we don't have food stamps, welfare recipients just get money.

But it's not a UBI, because it's not universal.

Jesus fucking Christ you dipshits are bad.

>>8488573
>wealth redistribution
>libertarian
the current stat of bizlets

>>8489488
>So now you're saying that higher living costs means you get more
no, I didn't say this.
>>8489488
>It's a simple calculation.
Yes, the simple calculation that you love to cite was done here >>8489447
>>8489547
>wealth redistribution
misunderstanding of the flow of money

>>8489526

What do you expect from socialist 18-25 year olds on biz?

>>8488168

>muh millenials

This meme really activates my almonds
Also UBI a shit, instead people should be given land and be allowed to be self sufficient on their own. Better solution than UBI

>>8489447

Yeah you're ducking retarded. UBI would be for everyone, ergo, 300 million people not 42. Your cost would go up 7x bainlet.

>>8489569
flow of what?
it's not libertarian if you can't opt-out

>>8489547
You are PAYING TAXES AS IS, you fucking retard!

>>8489589
Please move to South Africa.

>>8489626
well, I am not, and the fact taxes are currently levied in current year doesnt make UBI any more libertarian than it is. i.e. absolutely nothing

>>8489520
>wants free money to be a neet faggot
>expects everyone else to cough up the funds
Fucking commie
Kill yourself

>>8489526
won't only the poorest be a net cost in ubi though? since people with an income above a certain level will also be paying back into it, essentially like it is now with benefits to the poor

>>8488303
A fantastic response. I never thought about it like that but you are rright sir

>>8489711
So... You'll increase taxes?

>>8489656
Stripping off whole leech industry which is living off taxes, shrinking government in size and removing cronyism is not a step towards libertarian society? Go fuck yourself. It's never about how to make ideals happen today, it's about how to move towards ideals.

>>8488073
at some point the 1% will be forced to pay UBI to keep society in check. It is useless to be rich, if the poor start to revolt due to "no jobs"

>>8489526
There are many forms of UBI. The form I'm interested, and which has been implemented on a small scale is as follows:
Establish a poverty threshold within locality.
Establish a UBI that will be above that threshold.
If you earn above the threshold you get nothing.
Earn below the threshold you are bought up to the UBI.
Earn nothing and you are bought up to the UBI.
No obligation on how you spend the UBI.

This form eliminates poverty.
Allows people to comfortably look for work, if they choose to.
Allows people to comfortably leave work, if they choose to.
This forces hiring practices to be competitive, and allows vital industry that provide measurable benefits to society to become sought after jobs.

Take garbage men, for example.
No modern city in the world can exists for more than 2 weeks without garbage collection.
Garbage collection is a shitty job. I'm not going to be a garbage man for slightly above the UBI threshold, when I can sit on my ass all day and get paid the same rate.
Because garbage men is a vital job, the only way you can entice people to become a garbage man is by raising their income. Garbage men is now a sought after job because wages are dictated by the social demand for the job.

>>8488221
>waaaah i can't be a neet if I want to
oh the humanity
get a job hippie

>>8489668
You are paying taxes today. Why don't you take your gun and go towards white house today?

>>8489740
why don't we just stop the welfare programs and not replace them with anything then?

>>8488508
No they won’t. There are always going to be a lot of jobs where niggers work for less money than automata ever could

Any UBI policy would instantly become moot, once landlords and businesses simply adjust their prices to compensate. And US politics being what it is, will continue to create monetary policies that favor the wealthy. And we'll be right back where we are right now.

>>8489740
how does UBI do any of that?
holy fuck i rly hate your stupid leftypol raids retarded cunts

>>8488073
No. The day Universal Basic Income would work is the day we've effectively eliminated scarcity of resources. Check back sometime after general AI exists.

>>8489746
Garbagemen already make 3x the federal poverty line for individuals so i'm not sure what your point is here

>>8489746
So if I have a job that pays 50% of the UBI, why would I ever take a harder job or work more hours to get a job which pays 100% of UBI? My net income would remain the same even when my gross income doubled.

>>8489760
Yeah nah get fucked cunt

i'm fine with UBI if you are forced to do some kind of labor to qualify for it desu

>>8489775
Too bad the government also sets a minimum wage.

>>8489772
Replace them with another useless expenditure?
>>8489782
You're one digit IQ dude. Go get an education or smth. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf7YoHNn50V/

>>8489813
>universal
>conditioned
semantics much

>>8489819
7 many arguments 1337 me

>>8489819
>replace them with another useless expenditure
no just not replace them at all

>>8489526
>It's not for everyone, as is the entire point of a UBI?

If taxpayers are paying income taxes and revenue increases because UBI cost savings replaces dysfunctional systems then the lower tax rates would amount to a subsidy. A UBI payment on top of that would be a double subsidy.

Ideally a UBI would lift more people out of absolute poverty and improve the economy. Less people over time would need a UBI which would shrink the program to some equilibrium.

I'm not of the dim view of humanity that believes we all achieve a better life by forcing poor people to spend the night on the street or selfishly covet some token amount of money that should go toward alleviating real human misery. I'm also against corporations taking advantage of this situation to not pay the fair cost of free labor and encourage mass immigration.

>>8489803
The UBI is only slightly above poverty. If you were earning 50% of the UBI you would be basically destitute beforehand.
Now you can quit your shitty job all together. That job/employer is forced to evaluate it's wages and/or worth to society. It remodels itself, or is removed entirely if it serves no purpose for society.

>>8489829
conditioned basic income, then, whatever. NEETS are not entitled to a basic income if they aren't performing basic labor.

>>8489833
I mean I will vote for that but it's not getting a pass, UBI on the other hand could pass.

>>8489839
the federal mimimum wage is already around 150% the individual poverty line though, wages currently exceed what a UBI would be.

>>8489230
You can only buy fresh food with food stamps.

>>8489876
poverty threshold: $12k
mean minimum wage: $15k

Those are the figures I found.

>>8489839
Great, so now I'm providing literally no value to society and the world is worse off as a whole.

Congratulations, you literally just admitted to being pro-unemployment.

Saying "Any job that doesn't pay minimum wage isn't worth doing" shows that you have absolutely no understanding of economics whatsoever. If you generate $11 and get paid $10, you've still created wealth. If you don't do that job, then the wealth generation just never happens.

The worst part is that when you send your country down the shitter you'll probably just blame "The evil Mom and Pop small businesses" for not paying impossibly high wages.

>>8489887
gonna need a source from a government website on that bub

>>8489900
I was off with the numbers a little, whatever, federal mimimum wage already exceeds the poverty line. And Most states exceed federal minimum wage.

>>8489906
You are not dead. You're less sick. You're happier. You have more security and capitol. You create jobs with that capitol. You are free to follow any avenue you want. All money spent on you goes straight back into the hands of the rest of society. You can spend your free time creating a worthwhile job, or seeking a wage that far exceeds the UBI. You can pick and choose exactly what you want to do.

a better solution would be flat payments to everyone in the country of like 10k/year, and your income doesn't get subtracted from that so you still have incentive to work

>>8489909
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-23/look-how-much-junk-food-bought-taxpayer-funded-food-stamps

>>8489977
>you have capitol
money isn't capital you fucking turbo-brainlet

>>8489935
Yep.
So... something tells me... that the minimum wage might be calculated somewhere along the same lines as this theoretical UBI. So, enough to bring people out of poverty....

But now there's no need to work those min-wage jobs. So all those jobs quickly re-evaluate. The necessary ones become sought after, the useless/unnecessary get removed.

>>8489998
I would rather see people suffer than receive money for doing nothing. So no.

>>8490017
senpai you're actually gonna see way more people suffer if UBI comes into place, so if ure a nihilist sadistic fuck just campaign for commie policies

>>8489998
you type like a faggot btw
wages are already above what a universal standard income would be, minimum wage jobs would not see an increase in their wages

>>8490030
I mean that it’s inhimane to fuck with risk/reward systems. Your survival should be connected to your effort so that you have a sense of purpose in your life.

>>8489977
Do you realize what is economy? It's about how much goods and services we have. Money is just a number, it doesn't matter, it's how we assign value to things, but money itself does not create goods or services. Cleaning shit is a service and people get paid for that. To understand why they are getting paid that amount you have to understand how that business operates, where does it get money from and what are it's expenses. It doesn't matter what you consider to be fair or just in your mind, what matters is reality.
TL;DR your UBI concept is atrocious hell damaging economy and people like you are damaging the cause.

>>8489977
Except that it's against my own interests to get a low-paying job to start climbing the ladder, because as I said earlier I would have no increase in net income even if I doubled my gross income.

Meaning for anything worthwhile I'd have to get a job well above the UBI for it to be an actual increase in income, meaning it just adds a huge hurdle by effectively taking off the bottom three rungs off the ladder.

Congratulations, you'll entrench poverty and unemployment like never before.

>>8490080
>>8490084
deleet
stop making sense

>>8489724
isn't it assumed that most people would pay their basic income back in taxes, only keeping it in those times when their income falls below whatever line?
only a part of the population would be net beneficiaries, just as they are with current benefits, except a lot of bureaucracy would be eliminated

actually calculating the cost seems like a way more complex job than taking the population x monthly ubi payment

>>8488258
I think UBI is bullshit but here are some numbers for the US:
Population - 326,130,650
Minimum wage - $7.25/hour
Work hours per year - 2087

Unless your definition of UBI is less than the federal minimum wage you're looking at $15,131. UBI would cost 4.93 trillion dollars per year - probably double since I'm sure UBI fags also want a $15 minimum wage.

>>8490204
UBI fags would want 40k a year minimum

>>8490204
REEEEEEE numbers are counter-revolutionary, comrade! We'll just tax The Rich(tm) and print more money!

>>8488346
Faggot, automation getting cheap means Men will be able to launch business ventures more cheaper with less workers. Want to know what happens when every man in the country is self-employed? The Founding Fathers knew it as well. Every man self employed = true socialism. Except we don't call it faggot 'socialism' it's simply called the American School.

Automation will result in the American School being enacted, but fags like you will call it socialism because you don't even know what socialism actually is. Fucking retard.

>>8488430
>>8488447
It's called Land Value Tax and is the most efficient tax available. You fags probably don't know that, though. Both of you are fucking pajeets who just want to steal the land from Whitey. Abolish income tax, instate Land Value Tax and the American economy will resurrect itself. Doing so is probably too anti-climatic for you socialist fags, though.

>>8491012
>automation getting cheap means Men will be able to launch business ventures

Automation makes humans mostly useless. It will be a lot harder to become rich. If you aren't wealthy within 5 years, don't count on ever making it.

>>8491111
This is the scary thing, I'm desperately trying to launch my own thing ASAP before all the opportunities are gone.

>PUT HIGH TAXES TO FUND UBI
>SMALL BUSINESSES CAN'T PAY THEM SO THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS
>LARGE CORPORATIONS LOBBY THE GOVERNMENT TO PAY LESS TAXES
>NOW CORPORATIONS PAY LESS TAXES AND HAVE NO COMPETITION
>NOW YOU EITHER WORK FOR MR SHEKELSTEIN OR LIVE OF WELFARE NO CHANCE AT ALL TO START A BUSINESS

SOMEHOW RETARDS THINK THIS WILL TACKLE INEQUALITY

Serious question, wouldn't this make the majority of the people in society lazy?

>>8491111
>he thinks mass automation is coming
>he doesn't realize in the 1800s 90% of the American population worked in agriculture
>fucking agriculture
>doesn't realize today less than 1% of Americans work in agriculture
>90%+ to 1% in around 100 years
>doesn't understand White men adapt and survive to anything

Want to know how I know you're a pajeet? You useless, hopeless shit.

>>8491228
Mass automation already happened once, and the world, particularly White men, flourished. We went from farmers to astronauts within 100 years. But fags on this shit board just want to steal from "the Man" and just keep layering on layers of shit onto the already shit castle that is already creaking and croaking, about to come down.

currently the jobs most available, that is, with most people employed, (this data is outdated by 4-5 years but you can still get the point) are the ones that have been available even way before the automation you are talking about. only once you get to around top 30 of that list is where new jobs created by automation, i.e. the programmers, etc, also the one you are talking about how white people simply "adapt", they do not outpace the amount of jobs being displaced. once it gets to the point where technology booms, those top 30 jobs can easily be automated. not everyone can be a programmer, especially if you are familiar in the area you'd know that it isn't as simple as "just hire more programmers". don't even want to explain that. never mind the fact that even those jobs would eventually be automated. i think people are underestimating what "automation" is about to come. also the fact that adapting to new technology is something that the next generation would be for, not the current one. that's how it always has been. the ones who could not adapt simply wither off and die. however, again, the scale of automation that OP is probably imagining if he is wellread regarding UBI and its implications in relation with automation, unemployment would be worse than in the great depression.

>>8491250
>>8491391
forgot to quote

>>8491175
>PUT HIGH TAXES TO FUND UBI
Nope. Keeping the same tax rates, or even a negative tax rate, would cost less than the current social services bill.
>SMALL BUSINESSES CAN'T PAY THEM SO THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS
Nope.
>LARGE CORPORATIONS LOBBY THE GOVERNMENT TO PAY LESS TAXES
>NOW CORPORATIONS PAY LESS TAXES AND HAVE NO COMPETITION
(they) already do this
>NOW YOU EITHER WORK FOR MR SHEKELSTEIN OR LIVE OF WELFARE NO CHANCE AT ALL TO START A BUSINESS
Mr Shekelstein will need to pay well, otherwise I won't bother.

>>8491443
The issue is things like universal healthcare will never be given up.

>>8491195
>it's better to do pointless degrading work than to be "lazy"

good intro video for anyone interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8HfcxEk
or cgp grey's humans need not apply. i repeat, this is juts an intro video. would probably be better for you to start with philo/polsci works but i dont think anyone here cares that much. also, it feels like the author would be targeted instead of the content if i share it like this but whatever, if it at least helps someone on the fence understand the topic better
>>8491195
besides that anon above said, i think it would be better to study theories behind motivation. the way it is set up now is you are forced to do things just to live in the first place. i guess we have different beliefs if you don't give intrinsic value to life. also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
facebook tier depth but introduction is good enough

>>8488073
It's spelled "communism", now go kill yourself.

>>8491574
You'd be giving away less of your money than you are now.
assuming you actually have a job lmao

>>8491633
suggested implementations right now (at least when i last checked) are wonky. iirc if you remove all welfare currently then yes, you'd end up paying less for it because of reduction in administrative costs, bloat, what have you.

>>8491633
Great. I still don't want to end up starving in a gulag you halfwitted manchild who can't see more than a minute into the future. Leftism should be illegal.

>>8488714
I’m not sure how I feel about UBI honestly, but I’d like to play devils advocate here. What would be the purpose of UBI if it was only 100 euros a month? The whole point of a 500-1000 euro UBI is to allow people the comfort of pursuing their dreams of running a business or getting into a creative( non lucrative) field. I don’t see the point of a 100 euro UBI because that would just become the federally subsidized liquor fund...

>>8491670
please explain how you'd be starving in a gulag dumbo

>>8491670
what would you suggest as a solution for unemployment worse than the great depression that would be eventually caused by automation?

>>8488073
>Wages would be dictated by societal pressures
>gib money for nothing

>>8491704
>what is the history of communism

If you take the step and give people 1000 bucks for "free" you no longer have any logical grounds to refuse them 100.000.000 bucks for free, so everyone can be equal and rich! Don't believe me? Read a little bit about Communism in USSR and PRC to learn about to what insanity human nature can lead.

UBI is just Communism dressed up nicely so midwits are enarmored by it.

Pic related.

>>8491766
do you mind answering my question? some (id argue most, even) UBI advocates became proponents because of this problem
>>8491707

>>8488573
>It's full on libertarian
>So let's tax the gains of businesses into the ground so jamal can continue his drug entrepreneurship

>>8491789
world bank's findings state that what you just said is unfounded. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/689575 do you agree?

>>8491789
Jamal is a drug entrepreneur because he is too stupid to go to college but still wants to make enough money to survive the streets of whatever shithole he lives in. Strip away all government benefits and put in a UBI and Jamal doesn't need to peddle drugs to survive because his bare basic costs are covered by UBI. The rich love it when you scapegoat niggers as the problem because that means you're spending less time looking at just how disgustingly rich the 1% is getting.

>>8491788

I don't have the time to teach you economics and world history. Maybe start out by reading about inflation.

The unemployment problem can be solved by [1] just not employing robots for every single task, [2] getting away from the eternal growth paradigm, [3] having our populations shrink naturally. There, problem solved.

>>8491807
>>8491818
I really don't give a shit what the unwashed masses decide to spend their money on but they should be fairly earning it to begin with

Far more libertarian than your half baked undergrad dorm room sesh baked policy

>>8491835
Holy shit you absolute deluded faggot none of those "solutions" will EVER work. And I thought commies were deluded. Touching on your first point, companies will automate if it saves them money. As automation improves more companies will automate, saving them tons of money and making employment more difficult. Your solution to this is to just stop technological advancements so wagecucks won't be replaced by robots? How are you going to stop companies from swapping out their unreliable employees for cheap robots. As for the next two points, good fucking luck getting the sand niggers, Mormons, and chinks to stop breeding at rapid rates. Literally, unironically KYS.

>>8491835
i just want to state that im for capitalism first and foremost and that for capitalism to keep on being capitalism it would need consumers. unironically most capitalist proponents of UBI argue that it needs UBI so that society wont go full-communism because of inequality. 1 doesnt make sense because companies would want to use what would profit them the most, they dont care about the population. i think 2 would be answered similarly. as for 3, i think we just have principles regarding instrinsic value of life, i cant really argue that.

>>8491842
Fairly earning it FUCKING KEK. Dipshits like you love saying shit like that but have no problem with trust fund babies and wealth hoarders in the 1%.

>>8488346
>Automation kills jobs
>The worthless huddled masses become angry
>Drone strikes and automated turrets around the >$60k income ghettos
>No more worthless huddled masses
Yeah it's gonna be awesome

>>8491911
he can easily say that he's also against trust fund babies and wealth hoarders in the 1%. he's probably pro-middle class, whatever that means.
>>8491842
anon, do you think speculators in wall street or people in crypto earn their money fairly? i think in your terms they don't. if i understood it correctly the only way to "fairly earn" for you is if they work in some desk job or factory or something. if you actually don't have a problem with the trust fund babies and wealth hoarders because you think that they actually give "value" to society, well..

>>8491911
>>8491916
nvm he's just anti poor but somehow attempted to mix in ideas of "fairly earning" with it, idk how. also we have differences regarding how we value life so we're basically arguing with air

>>8491911
There is literally nothing wrong with people securing a comfortable life for their children

Many go on to be world leaders, great scientists, or start businesses or philanthropic ventures

I understand it if it's jamal who's family got displaced by the interstates being built over their neighborhood or who's great grandfather got red-lined from the housing market but how many of those families are really left? And on the other hand if you're white and without a six digit home income your family literally brought this on themselves

>>8491934
The poors want to live like kings in houses, fancy microwaves and televisions and have a fridge full of food it requires speculators in wall street giving them credit to do so

Society is built on lies, as long as they're digging the ditches they have a place here

>>8491835
>[3] having our populations shrink naturally.

How do we do this one when spicks and niggers breed indiscriminately? Quotas?

>>8491980
the only country i know of that does this is unironically communist china lmao. not meant to offend, was just too easy hah

>>8491884
>How are you going to stop companies from swapping out their unreliable employees for cheap robots.

>How are you going to stop companies from swapping out adult employees for children that are far cheaper
>How are you going to stop companies from dumping toxic waste into rivers because it's cheaper than cleaning it

Are you a special needs kid?

>>8490204
Check USA budget it's 4trilion hahahaha.

>>8488136
Everyone doesn't have to work for society to function.
If there are some people who are happy with just UBI level life then so be it.

>>8488341
1% have too much money give me that I need it it's mine why I'm a poor when I don't work reeeeee, why is some retard immigrant coming here and making bank when I need that UBI reeeeee his be the 1%, I don't won't to work.

>>8492036
I don't think technological growth is as immoral as the ones you stated. also, historically unions haven't been effective at mitigating its effect on employment

Not one of you chodes has answered this question:

Where would this money come from?

>>8488864
mate i don't know if you've taken a look outside but most people most definitely do not starve
in fact most of the current problems we have now are not caused by the "1%" but by the rapidly expanding demographics of idiots reproducing at a greater rate
world iq has been steadily dropping for the past three decades and wil continue to do so if we don't stop feeding africa

>>8491959
>also we have differences regarding how we value life
Yeah it's called don't fuck with mine or anyone else's

People are free to be enterprising, there's plenty of resources to start your own freelance work or small business even without a brick an mortar store now more than ever. Computing is cheap and even a lot of software for startups that offer their services for free up to a certain revenue limit or subscription model. But you'd rather sit here spouting your communist nonsense on a business board and blaming others for your problems than getting a part time to bootstrap yourself

>>8489428
This. UBI (or welfare, for that matter) needs to be tied to sterilization. People need to stop hoping for a singularity AI or the rise of automation to save them of the dysgenic mess we could stop right now. Deus ex machina is a children's fancy.

>>8492091
>>8492087
>>8491959
>>8491934

Answer this one chode, responses involving "taxation" will be met with funds being funneled into a more business friendly nation like Monaco or the Cayman Islands

>>8489746
confirmed for american
welfare works the way you describe in many western european countries, as a result a whole lot of people stay on gibs forever rather than work

See, I think if you accept any form of monetary government assistance you should lose your right to vote, which continues for 5 years or so after you stop accepting it. This would include federally subsidized student loans as well as subsidies to an oil company, for example. Buh-bye Citizens United (gotta acknowledge that high grade newspeak)

Why should you lose your right to vote? Because you're a ward of the state, not a citizen. We should reward self-sufficiency.

>>8489760
>You are paying taxes today
>making less than $165,000 without deductions
kek, neck yourself commie

>>8492130
>>8492091
see
>>8489447

A properly implemented UBI means LESS tax would go towards social services. A UBI would be CHEAPER than current social services by a significant margin.

>>8492169
It would be cheaper until you run out money because no one in their right mind would continue to work to feed everyone who doesn't.

Communism should be included in the DSM-5 as a mental disorder.

>>8492169
>>8489447
Yeah, homeslice is talking about UBI for just a small fraction of Americans already on ebt and other welfare programs. Any UBI even at that fixed rate would be insignificant especially in Urban centers where arguably it's most needed. You'd probably be able to afford half your rent with that payment on a one room studio shithole while prices for consumer goods go up because of people's increased buying power.

Right now the only candidate crazy enough to support a UBI is Andrew Yang; talking big on a $1k UBI taxed to big earners like Amazon and Apple who will very likely start moving assets into accounts in the Cayman, Netherlands, and Bermuda while the US spirals into a shithole.

Why not housing + food? Imagine a dorm where you have a room, communal dining, bathroom, showers, wifi, library, school... basically extended college except it's free unless you want to buy things.

>>8492264
That's literally communism

>>8492264
just live with you mom then

>>8492274
first correct and appropriate usage of "literally" i've seen in ages.

>>8488324
>When people no longer worry about job security, they feel more comfortable pursuing avenues of income that they enjoy.

AKA Gender studies and liberal arts