/biz/ - Business & Finance

It's called a Job Guarantee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee

Of course it would be opposed because it would end up driving up wages in the private sector, if anyone could quit their McJob and not be afraid of being unemployed this would give to much bargaining power to labour.

>>840413
They have a could of them. Look up the various programs, but here are the easy ones.

http://www.jobcorps.gov/home.aspx
https://www.usajobs.gov/

>>840413
Very much this >>840422

Also government usually are very inefficient running a business, like in the case of Mexico where the government runs the oil company and this company doesn't make any money due to government waste of resources , incompetence and mismanagement, the same can be said about half of the crown corporations in Canada like BC ferries and even the private/government co ventures like translimk are horribly miss managed . Tldr: leave business to the privet sector and government BTFO

>>840458

this.

>>840458
how do you know it's just not the ones in charge who are running it efficiently? what does the private sector have that the federal government doesn't have/can't acquire?

>>840458
I think you're really over exaggerating the efficiency of private decision-making on production and investment. I know in Canada 68% of businesses with fewer than 5 employees fail within 5 years and 48% of business with 5 to 99 employees fail within five years. A 50%+ failure rate results in a lot of wasted resources and lost opportunity costs.

Governments actually generally have lower failure rates than what plague the private sector due to fundamental uncertainty.

>>840477
Here's an article by Ha-Joon Chang on State-Owned Enterprise
http://esa.un.org/techcoop/documents/PN_SOEReformNote.pdf
>Many countries achieved economic success with a large SOE sector. In addition to Singapore Airlines, the Singapore government owns enterprises not just in the “usual” sectors like telecommunications, power (electricity and gas), transport (rail, bus, and even taxi), and ports, but also in sectors like semiconductors, shipbuilding, engineering, shipping, and banking . It has one of the largest SOE sectors in the world (see Box 1 again) . Taiwan (Province of China) achieved its economic “miracle” on the basis of a large SOE sector and with little privatization (see Box 3). Throughout most of the second half of the 20 th century, countries like Austria, France, Norway, and West Germany had larg e SOE sectors and performed well. Especially in France, SOEs were often at the forefront of industrial modernization
>Conversely, many unsuccessful economies have small SOE sectors. Even before the large - scale privatization of the 1990s, Argentina’s SOE sector was less than half the average of 40 developing countries featured in a World Bank study (World Bank, 1995, Table A.1). Between 1978 and 1991, Argentina’s SOE sector accounted for only 4.7% of GDP, against the 40 - developing - count ry average of 10.7% and the Republic of Korea ’s 9.9%. The SOE sector in the Philippines, another widely recognized case of “development failure”, was even smaller. During the same period, at 1.9% of GDP, it was just over 1/5 that of the Republic of Korea (9.9%) and less than 1/5 of the 40 - country average of 10.7% (World Bank, 1995, Table A.1). Despite this, Argentina and the Philippines are commonly touted as economies that failed because of large public sectors

>>840474
a government owning a industry is terrible in the sense of self-interest. Compare a privately owned business to a government agency. The latter is notorious for lazy workers with attitude and slow service.
According to wealth of nations; a person owning their own business will strive to make it the best it can be.

>>840484
ya i didn't take into account the motivation factor of employees and owners of businesses trying to make the company even larger

>>840484
do you have the data to back up those claims?

>>840484
>According to wealth of nations; a person owning their own business will strive to make it the best it can be.
Adam Smith was against limited liability corporations, he was for privately owned family operated enterprises. Modern large scale industries can't realistically be run on that basis however.

Smith would be totally against modern financial capitalism altogether.

>>840487
you're data is free market countries gdps compared to socialist countries gdps. I don't have concrete date at the moment, but I look at it logically using history and pragmatics.
If you have skin in the game with your company, you are more than likely to put more self-interest into it.

>>840477
The reason that government have lower falure rates are because the use tax revenue to prop state owned enterprises , in the form of subsides just look at BC hydro , Translik, BC ferries and ICBC they all are propped by tax levies spite the fact that they hold monopoly of their respected fields. What kind of private enterprise can say the same? All this enterprises operate with no competition and still can't manage to make break even let alone make a profit , just look at the Translik plebiscite results from last month , this assholes provide a shittier service that the third world toilet that I'm from , their fares are 2 times more expensive than the comparable cities like Seattle and Toronto , get tax subsidies from electricity bill levys, gasoline levys , property tax levys and still had the balls to request an increase of the sale tax from 12% to 12.5% and still they were planning to cut service hours in the areas of the lower mainland that needs it more. No surprise that their first move after losing the plebiscite was to fire their CEO and cut bonuses to their board of directors .

>>840489
we are talking about government agencies vs companies. Just because I agree with one thing Smith said about self-interest doesn't mean I agree with the whole book. Way to take a polarized side of it.

>>840535
this, they have no competition yet they are run like shit. Read atlas shrugged the whole premise is on this.

>>840489
modern large scale industries today are monopolies; so it dissents all he said. All the big companies of the U.S receive subsidies. Take the big car companies after foreign cars came into U.S. They were so cocky and complacent that they didn't change to the future. Now look at Detroit.
When business and government have a marriage, that's not free market..

>>840487
Not him but here is an example of what he is taking about : http://mexicovoices.blogspot.ca/2013/07/mexico-pemexs-packed-payroll-and-low.html?m=1

>>840534
ya, and if you underperform or don't do your job at the federal level, you get fired. same concept as private sector

>>840546
Is this bait?

>>840542
While this is true the kind of subsidies that large corporation get are not in the same league than the state own corporations : for example the 3 of the largest Canadian corporations ; Bombardier , RIM , Rogers communications do get subsidies and government backed loans to weather bad economic conditions and save jobs , now this companies also have generated large amounts of tax revenue because they have generated huge profits in most of their existence while state owned enterprises like bc ferries , ICBC and Translik have never turned a profit , infact they have always cost the tax payer more than their USA aquivalents due to inflated salaries , miss management and the fact that this enterprises are used for political leverage rather than to make money. Also Rim have plenty competitors and is now losing the market war , bombardier also have many competitors and is struggling to compete in. The global market and Rogers is still long because restrictions on foregin competition on telecommunications . On the other hand BC ferries have no competition at all, if you need to get to the Sunshine Coast is either BC ferries or owning your own boat . Same with Translik you need to get around Vancouver and the lower mainland is either super expensive bus , even more expensive cabs or driving your own car . In my country there are atleast 3 bus companies in every city and most bus companies are a union co-op were each driver own it's own bus thus the service is excellent compared to vancouvers on top of this you have collective taxis , regular cabs , light trains and subway and I'm from the third world

>>840546
Yeah they have similar quotas...but they don't have similar end-goals. Government is public service, companies are about making the best product and service out there.
Not the best argument you can make, considering government-run countries are less opulent than a free-market. If you read the first 40 pages of "wealth of nations" you can see that Smith compares prices and wages of Britain and U.S at the time. STARK differences in purchasing power. One country had a bloated aristocracy, the other had a free market.

>>840565
yeah you hit the nail on the head with this "inflated salaries, mismanagement" then you go on to answer with "political leverage". EXACTLY, politicians just care about being in office, businesses care about expanding and hiring the best talent out there. So really their self-interest are extremely different.

>>840566
okay, first off, i dont think using a 300 year old book as your source is effective today, and, the government still has the objective of creating the best services and products for the people. money isn't the sole motivation

>>840546
This is utter bullshit , union protection on federal jobs is appalling ! Just look at any of the ministry's , a quick walk thru Smithers bc or Whitehorse in the Yukon and you'll see that most federal government employes do jack shit most of the day and make tons of money and have all kinds of perks that are non-existent in the private sector

>>840575
take the U.S government; giving out food-stamps is a very effective tool in garnering political support rather than economic growth. All it does is put a drag on society, rather than contribute actual growth and all it does is raise dependence on dear government.
Also attacking my source is very ignorant, considering many GREAT works are still relevenat today. That is the distinction between a great and a good book. History also repeats itself.
Yeah you could give me a fringe example of the government acting like that, but the reason why companies "Give the best services and products" is because of MONEY. Their self-interest is sated, and they are rewarded for it. Thank all the great minds who invented products that make our lives easier, because they were thinking of money and success. Ergo why entrepreneurs are the richest people in the world.

>>840579
yeah that was my point initially, and he asked for proof...look at any government agency and they will have their fingers up their ass.

>>840413
>why doesn't the gov run a continuous jobs program?

Because it's a stupid idea.

>>840581
food stamps wasn't created to increase gdp, although it does actually do it. so that argument makes no sense.

>>840586
you can make more money a week on food-stamps and other government benefits than a min. mcjob. Yeah so you are so egregiously wrong. I won't be surprised when the U.S ends up like Greece.

>>840413

because that's socialism.

>>840594
working McDonalds 10/hr * 20 = 200 per week = 800 per month.

Food stamps 200/month.

How are you making more money on food stamps? Sure, you could probably make more per month if you're getting child tax credit for 4 children, but 4 children isn't exactly revenue neutral...

>>840594
again, you have no clue what food stamps or other federal safety nets were put into place for. your solution is "oh well, let em starve. giving them money to survive while they find a job and feed their children will hinder their self reliance" i guess all disabled people shouldn't recieve federal safety nets? equality for all, right? gtfo

>>840586
His argument does make sense! If the government used the money they spend on food stamps to fund research or to finance start ups and micro business the GDP would increase much more than the spike generated by the food stamp spending. An example again my shitty country don't have welfare, tax returns , unemployment insurance , maternity leave or any other entitlement other than pensions for government workers but they do have state owned investment banks where you can secure a loan if you can prove that your micro business or start up is feasible and also you can borrow from the government to develop land for agricultural porpoises basically there is money to be had if you have the means to work and re pay . The problem with this , it's that in first world countries like the beautiful canada where I live now people what stuff for free and that's what they will vote for that's why politicians run on entitlements , subsidies and basic income pipe dreams

>>840602
food stamps plus other benefits, that the key caveat. Also McDonalds employees don't all make 10 yet. Also most Mcdonalds workers have food-stamps too lol.

>>840604
you are going the idealized presumption that the only people who get this benefits are disabled people. The statistics is that 30% of the population or so get food stamps. The ironic thing is the food they buy with those food stamps perpetuates or creates new diseases. I never argued getting rid of food stamps for someone who is legitimately disabled, but 30% of the population is? Bullshit.

>>840602
Food stamps 200/ month +
Welfare + $ 1000 usd of income that you can make and still collect welfare = better than mc job

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

>>840605
Small business in the U.S is getting shit on all platforms. All these "benefits" are bleeding the U.S economy dry, it's great if these benefits were reserved for a minority, but many residents are getting these benefits. How can we possibly sustain all these without ending up like Greece?
I concede your last point though.

>>840612
Most small businesses today simply aren't effective. Continuously cutting all social programs and lowering wages isn't going to go far competing against fully automated Chinese factories of the future. Upgrading and modernizing the economy is going to eliminate the need for a lot of unskilled labour. Small companies are going to need to attracted more skilled workers, which is going to be more expensive.

Also the U.S. can never become Greece, that's just disingenuous to say as long as they are the worlds reserve currency. Greeces issues aren't simply because of entitlements but because they are a member of a currency union and don't really have fiscal sovereignty.

>>840607
and you are assuming that 30% are liars and cheats. sure a lot don't buy the best food available, but can you blame them or expect them to buy differently? food is used as a coping mechanism a lot for people dealing with stress and it's not only people on welfare who eat unhealthy. everybody from every wealth class does

>>840474
Responsibility and the threat of failure.

The government always feels it can force people to do things and raise taxes to get funds.

Private sector must be good at what it does or fail. That's why the government is shit at pretty much everything.

>>840711
lol the government runs deficits yearly. clearly they dont think they can tax people enough or well enough to pay for shit

>>840655
Why would China ever work towards fully automating factories? They're specialized in producing labor intensive goods (low capital/labor ratio) and their best asset in terms of production is the fact that labor basically costs nothing compared with the richer western economies.

Think about it another way: It makes a lot of sense to spend 100k to make a machine that substitutes a 50k Americunt's salary. After all, it will only take 2 years of reduced wages to replace the initial investment.

How much sense does it make to spend that same 100k to buy a machine that will replace a Chinese laborer's 5k salary? Will that machine even still be running in 20 years when it hits break even?

>>840655

>wages isn't going to go far competing against fully automated Chinese factories of the future

why the fuck would chinese factories automate when they have an insanely huge labor pool, no worker protections, and more importantly would have to import most of the bots from the west?

>Small companies are going to need to attracted more skilled workers, which is going to be more expensive.

small companies already do, as skilled workers minted fresh from colleges have to compete for a limited number of spaces at larger companies. Smaller ones feed up into bigger ones. Such has been the case for at least 20+ years now.

>>840606
They do where I live... Time for the rest of the US to catch up with the West Coast.

>>840611
>$ 1000 usd of income that you can make and still collect welfare
Wrong. This is, by definition, a McJob.

>>840727
Labour costs have been going up in China and they will soon run out of cheap labour from the countryside they can exploit

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-05/03/content_20606573.htm
>A manufacturing hub in South China's Guangdong province has begun constructing the city's first zero-labor factory, a signal that the local authorities are bringing into effect its "robot assembling line" strategy.
>Dongguan-based private company Everwin Precision Technology Ltd is pushing toward putting 1,000 robots in use in its first phase of the zero-labor project, China National Radio reported. It said the company has already put first 100 robots on the assembly line.
>"The 'zero-labor factory' does not mean we will not employ any humans, but what it means is that we will scale down the size of workers by up to 90 percent," said Chen Qixing, the company's board chairman.

>>840740
> more importantly would have to import most of the bots from the west?

Uh... Dude.

>>840413
Thats a nice ass

>>840768
What, this guy is right? Automated robots are high tech manufacturing (Very high quality, versatile, works forever if maintained). China makes homogenous cheap low quality goods.

Robots will be imported from places with established high tech industries, like the Silicon Valley and Japan.

We're talking about a machine that can be programmed to make cars one day and microprocessors the next. You expect this to come from the country that can't make a working can opener and thinks that melamine makes good baby formula?

I'll give you an example of working in government.
Hi, we need a widget. Okay lets get a team together of the finest minds on Government Contractor Salary.
Let's take the IRS Pay chain for accountants for example.
66k for for your 5-10 year salary
vs 65k starting at one of the Big 4 accounting.
What career path would an individual take.
It would not illogical to conclude that a persons salary is generally commensurate with their ability.
That's 5-10 years of fuck ups and training to get the new kid to to the level he should have been at when he started.
Now let's say that the kid learns faster than average. He's essentially got a standing offer at those companies and can cut 3 years of wageslaving up off his timeline. Or perhaps, he's average and works his 5 years. He's finally matched competency with a new college grad at the big 4. is he really going to ride the train to retirement when promotion and salary increases way faster in the private sector. let's say prolly yeah.
So lets say this happens system wide. Your immediate supervisor was likely in the bottom portion of his pool of candidates, same for his, all the way up through bottom of the top of the chain of command, who are temping it from the big four for political reasons and are highly rewarded when they re-enter private sector.
You're starting with inefficiency, further degrading efficacy in the middle, and detaching the head from the hands.
Its inefficient at solving its every day problems. Then on top of that when shit goes awry, they hire the folks in the private sector at exorbitant consulting fees to do the work a second time.
This happens on multiple redundant levels in pretty much every government agency.

The best one up until recently was the US post office operating at 25% loss annually.

>>840655
they are being phased out as the worlds reserve currency. Yes it was entitlements and a huge military that destroyed it's GDP.

>>840655
Yeah but free market society would be like "oh factory work isn't feasible anymore, lets find a new market or industry that needs demand" Enjoy the cheap prices of factory goods and go into another industry that needs demand.