/biz/ - Business & Finance

Kek I would like to see a cuck that would have less than he owes on taxes and he would go and suck government’s dick and get himself into debt because of his own money.

Yep. I made a thread about that a few weeks ago and the brainlets on this board were too dumb to understand.

No thanks cuck. XMR keeps me conmfy

>>8358881

you either suck the governments dick or your cellmates dick

Shoo shoo shill

>>8358750
>>8358953

I have lost an unkown amount of monero. Already went to the police, but they dont care. Sorry. ;)

>>8358963
They could not even stop the kid that shot up the school in Florida even though he posted that he was going to do it on a public forum. You really think they can get you for crypto gains?

>>8358750
Nice, just bought 100k

>>8358963
>have your OWN personal earned money
>invest those into a volitale market, take all the risks asociated
>spends hundreds of hours of your life and stress
>make a lot of “paper” gains, haven’t cashed out a single cent
>suddenly massive crash
>oh no you owe the government $50k of your own money that you don’t even have anymore
>either go into debt for not giving your own money away or get thrown into jail because at one point you were worth $200k on paper
You would have to be a massive cuck regardless. Who will prove you had that much if you never cashed out a cent? Nobody.

>>8359040

I'll take the bait.

https://www.irs.gov/privacy-disclosure/historical-documents-relating-to-alphonse-al-capone-chicago

do you seriously think you can get away with tax evasion? every major cryptocurrency exchange is reporting every transaction made to the irs as you shitpost.

the irs doesn't fuck around about their money

>>8359085
That's exactly why taxation is theft especially when you speculate with your own money.

>>8358750
Jokes on you, crypto is tax free here.

>>8359118
you are literally comparing crypto NEETs to al capone

>>8359136
If I could just pay 20% when I cash out from crypto to fiat I literally wouldn’t give a fuck and would happily give it away but in situations like these it’s literally the government stealing from you legally and if you don’t have the money you can get assraped by Tyrone in jail.

>>8359118
The IRS doesn't have the ressources to go after everyone. Especially when you throw in stuff like RingCT, VPNs and wash trading over various sites, then they have basically no chance to backtrack that to you.
Furthermore binance or other exchanges in asia wont give a fuck about the IRS. Anyway you are fucked when you are living land of freedom and on top are trading on coinbase / bittrex. Then get ready for the soap.

I live in California too.. this guy had to pay 40% in taxes.. is that true California anons? I knew it was high but I thought 25% max. What the fuck man

>people don't even know about FACTA yet
FBARs dont apply but FACTA does.

>>8359183
Some countries have to pay up to 60%. Would you still do it? The government did nothing to support or help me gaining my money. In the end i wouldn't mind 20-30% either.

>>8358750
Wow that guy is so fucked. I already payed my taxes on tax return. Shit sucks but I know if I want money I can cash out my 12k in crypto at any time. Owed about 3500 did it through hrblock online

>>8358963
personally id rather lose an unknown amount and if the government wants to pay my living expenses for a few years because of that then fine, they can spend the money and resources to find the people like me until they are completely broke. the IRS talks a big game for the reasons a schoolyard bully talks a big game. only butthurt pussies who have already been fucked and feel entitled to a part of my money will even try to debate any of this. it's obvious to any white man

>>8359118
haha ok. When I start breaking the law in the same way a mob boss does I will be sure and hire a CPA.
Until then, get fucked bootlicker.

>>8359188
it's your income tax bracket. if he's in the 39.60% bracket in the US then he claimed more than 400k in income tax this year.....so larp.

>>8359188
>I live in California too.. this guy had to pay 40% in taxes.. is that true California anons? I knew it was high but I thought 25% max. What the fuck man

Who else do you think is going to pay for all those niggers on welfare in Cali?

California is currently the largest welfare state ever, in US history.

IN THE LAND OF THE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>8359235

It really doesn't matter. 'Mericans are fucked up the ass anyways.

>not understanding that you can offset capital gains with your capital losses

I don't see the problem here. You'll never owe more than you gained, and you'll never owe anything if all you do is lose money.

I don't even know how tax works but I don't think you need to pay crypto-crypto last year just this year
I paid long term capital gains on my bitcoin to cash and I think that's good enough

If I'm wrong what are the consequences?

>all these anonymous basket weaving burgers that think they're bigger and badder than the irs

holy fucking shit, you guys make sure to let me know how your nutraloaf tastes come Q2 2020

>>8359085
>make a lot of money
>don't pay taxes on it
>reinvest it elsewhere
>then lose a lot of money
>still owe taxes from previous activity

ree! no step on snek!

I spent $350, then withdrew every single cent I could from Finance/Coinbase. Do I have to report something so miniscule? I didn't even make any gains from it.

Reporting mine today

>>8359349
what about the way the market moved
you have big gains for last year and big losses for this year but you owe the gains before the losses
so are you crippled for a couple years until you can offset the losses + taxes

>>8359378
Except it’s not reinvesting, in the end all alts are tied to BTC it’s just the governments regulating it like stocks which they are not.

>>8359349
What country are you in? In America if you make short-term capital gains in 2017 the losses in 2018 have absolutely nothing to do with them.

>>8359349
Wrong. If you have a capital gain in 2017, even if all your money goes up in flames in 2018 you still owe taxes for 2017.

>>8359457
>the absolute state of the united states

>>8359289
>20% of the state collects disability
wtf

(and its probably that bad in every state)

>>8359381

If you made less than 10k, you generally don't have to file a federal tax return

>>8359390
If you, for instance, invested $1000 in 2017 that mooned to $100,000 by December, you'd owe capital gains tax on that $99,000, but only once you sold or made a trade, because every trade is a taxable event(basically a sale).

So lets say you had $99,000 in capital gains, but then you lost that entire investment in January 2018 by making retarded trades, and now your coins are only with $10,000.

You do indeed still have to pay your capital gains tax on the $99,000 you made in 2017. So if you don't have the cash to pay the ~$30k in taxes you owe because you lost everything, yes you are fucked. You'll have to talk to the IRS about your options.

Now, you will be able to write off your January 2018 capital LOSSES when you file in future years. HOWEVER you can't apply the losses to your gains from 2017(losses only carry forward, not backward).

So eventually you'll have to pay whatever you gained last year.

tl;dr come up with some money.

>>8359634

this is why hodl is not a meme

>>8359634
legal theft
>pay us your own money goyim or we will throw you in jail

>>8359289
>number
Now overlay a population growth graph you fucking retard.

>>8359634
>Now, you will be able to write off your January 2018 capital LOSSES when you file in future years.

You can only carry $3,000 worth of losses to the next year.

NOW LET ME REMIND YOU WHY THIS IS ALL HAPPENING.

This is the SEC stepping in to PROTECT consumers from evil ICOs. So that consumers don't get ripped off. THEY ARE PROTECTING US GOY

>>8359634
I only sold bitcoin in november december january
and didn't touch the money, but then what does bcash mean do I owe everything I made from selling bcash then owe again selling it to dollars

I feel like none of this shit is clearly defined and I paid what I sold to dollars I hope that's sufficient

what about all the bitcoin I lost gambling on sports and dice are those losses I can report

>>8358750
2017 trades are not enforced, only trades after Jan 3rd or whenever it was after Drumpf signed that shit

>>8359684
Galt's Gulch awaits you in scenic Somalia

>>8359524
anon its like that every where

>>8359118
No, Coinbase only reports 14 or more transactions a year.

>>8358750

Thank god I never traded lmao I just held the entire time, basically owe 0 tax
People make fun of holders for the HODL meme and now tradefags are the ones who will be fucked. Feels good.

>>8359841
Not in the netherlands

>>8359887
but why don't you time the dip goyim trust us we'll be your exchange

>>8359527
Illegals can also collect disability as well.

>>8359311
You just know that kid is playing minecraft

We’re all dead

>>8359634
Damn. That is completely fucked.

>>8359789
You mean Somalia where gangs and pirates rape and pillage just like the government?
You are so fuckin gullible.
>No taxes = Somalia
Lol please noose yourself shitstain.

friendly reminder these threads are made by the same agency everyday

Come to my house pussy ass kike bitch :v)

>>8359887

that's just dumb luck. it's not like you knew anything about capital gains or called the top and set aside taxes

>>8358750
are you using this random reddit post as evidence of your claim? Crypto to crypto 2017 not taxable.

from the congress hearing yesterday it's obvious the government hates us
"pajama millionaires don't contribute anything to society"
literally calling for a terror attack financed by crypto

>>8360056
Yes, it is.

>>8358750
Fucking kek. Good luck tracing my binance and kucoin trades.

>>8359457
>So lets say you had $99,000 in capital gains, but then you lost that entire investment in January 2018 by making retarded trades, and now your coins are only with $10,000.

how would all your money go up in flames if you already cashed out in 2017? you only pay taxes on realized gains

>>8359175
Maybe you missed the part about the money?

>>8360077
that law was put into place in like december it doesn't count for 2017 only 2018 and on wards

>>8360077
why do you say that?

>>8359634
>because every trade is a taxable event(basically a sale).

This is a meme. Explain how the IRS will figure out your SATOSHI profit and somehow convert that to USD and then burn you for it.

>>8360068
Seriously these fucks should start getting wacked by some hitLedger or something. Make them think twice before trying to gut us like fish with taxes and reg.
>mfw government is the bane of civilization

>>8359841
not here in Germany

>>8360100
dude fuck off, not cool at all man. Seriously go think about your sick pathetic existence for a little bit.

>>8358750

>LAND OF THE FEE

Can't wait for the massive exodus from the US everyone with half a brain will get the fuck out of there and give their citizenship.

>>8360087

selling is realizing gains or losses tard. doesn't matter what you do with the gains after that. if you lose them all you still owe taxes for the year you made the gains

>>8359118

You can always tell who the boomers are on forums and the boomer boot lickers. I can profile you down to the last detail based on your word choice, carefully passed down from boomer generation to gen z to millennial, it's fascinating desu.

>>8359725
>You can only carry $3,000 worth of losses to the next year.
You're wrong, you can write off $3000 in INCOME TAX with capital losses, but there is no limit to the amount of capital gains you can offset with your capital losses.

>>8359742
I don't understand your question. Are you asking what you owe from selling BTC -> Bcash? It's all the same, you have to pay capital gains tax on whatever gains you made from the time you bought the BTC to the time you sold it, no matter what you actually sold it for.

That being said, the IRS should only be able to see what made off with in USD. I don't think they can see your BTC -> Bcash trade.

>>8360021
>Damn. That is completely fucked.

Yes it is, that is why many experienced traders will...
>file early, so they don't lose everything before they've paid Uncle Sam
>intentionally sell bad investments at a loss at the end of the year, to offset gains they've made on other assets

The latter technique is called "tax loss harvesting".

>>8360167
>believing in the crypto to crypto meme

You only pay on what you convert to fiat.
If you WANT to pay on crypto-crypto trades, the tax man wouldn't mind at all.
People talking about crypto-crypto taxes are being asinine and spreading rumors for normies to fall for
I guarantee you a fuck ton of people will pay more than their fair share because they believed them.

If they ask for my trade history they can sort it out themselves, otherwise I'm paying the difference on what was bought and taken out with fiat.
Good luck determining the precise price of "x" shitcoin at "x" moment in time in terms of Bitcoin, and then the USD value of Bitcoin at that present moment in time. Not realistic at all.

>>8359040
the IRS is the only competent branch of government for obvious reasons

>>8360130
>Explain how the IRS will figure out your SATOSHI profit and somehow convert that to USD and then burn you for it.

Fuck man you are naive. Ever heard of a 1099K? Coinbase sent mine to the IRS (and notified me by email). Every single trade, transfer (even Coinbase to GDAX), deposit/withdraw, etc... was declared a sale and my year-end total was around $13 million dollars.

I have to prove that the vast majority of that $13 million was in the form of transfers and not trades or else I am fucked. Trying to determine my cost basis for 2017 right now with a crypto tax CPA who literally has a waiting line of customers at his office everytime I visit.

>>8360130
I'm just telling you the rules that the IRS has laid out.

Will they trace every transaction on the blockchain? Probably not.

But they know about every sale of BTC that gets made with USD on the exchanges. So they know that you do own BTC, if you purchased it with USD.

So while they don't know about your trades, they'll know if you cash out more BTC than you bought, and then they'll be asking how you made those gains.

>>8360237
>but there is no limit to the amount of capital gains you can offset with your capital losses.

Oh wow. So if I have huge losses this year but massive gains next year I could potentially pay 0 short-term gains tax for the next year?

>>8360281
It's easy to do. Every major exchange allows you to export your orders.

>>8360326

Yes good goy, dox yourself to the government even though you have absolutely no obligation to do so.

>>8359187
if you're tech savvy enough you may get away with it but remember if you ever cash a significant amount of it out into a bag account that will automatically get flagged and you can be audited up to 7 years in the past. id rather just take the hit than be looking over my shoulder for the better part of decade

>>8360114
I say that because I’ve read the laws and spoken to three different cpas. One was useless but the other two fairly knowledgeable about crypto laws. Do your own research is all I’ll say. Don’t forget about facta/fbar as well. I don’t plan on dying in the next few years so I prefer to cover my ass.

>>8360283
>the IRS is the only competent branch of government

Oh is that why thousands of people get away with not paying their taxes every year?

>>8360281
>You only pay on what you convert to fiat.

Absolutely false. You pay when you trade for ANY FORM OF PROPERTY with a fair market value.

wtf is with all this tax shilling on this board

>The market punishes risk more often than not
>The tax man punishes risk on top of the market, whether or not the risk paid out

I start to see the point made by Libertarians sometimes.

>>8360326
how are you going to figure out the exact $ amount of each order before and after? oh thats right you cant

>>8360350
his point is the exchange can and will hand those records over to the government even if you don't. and then you'll likely get jail time + have to pay everything you plus interest

>>8360319
Yes, exactly.

If I had $100,000 in the bank and bought BTC at 20k and then sold it at 8k, I'd have lost $60k, so on my next $60k in *gains* I can pay 0 taxes.

And you can use $3k/year to deduct income tax as well.

>>8360298
thats not what im talking about

>have shitcoin
>shitcoin skyrockets
>sell shitcoin for BTC

how would the IRS know this ever even happened on an international exchange like binance? And how would they know the $ amounts to tax? they fucking don't.

>>8360392
Bitcoin is no property

>>8360283
The irs is an agency for the government not a branch of and like every other agency under obama, the irs became corrupt and incompetent.

>>8360413
You were supposed to keep track of that. But if you didn't there's tax software that can load up the exact conversion into dollars in that second from that exchange's API data of BTC's dollar price.

>>8360413
It literally prints the value of BTC at the time of your trade, you god damned brainlet.

>>8360350
>you have no obligation to tell the IRS about your income

Ehhhh

>>8360448

No, but in that case they can hit you with an audit and ask you to prove everything as they go through your shit with a fine tooth comb because you tried to say that 2+2=5. Good luck with that homie.

>>8358750
These threads are getting annoying.

First off, the irs will have no clue about your trading unless you bought crypto using usd on a legitimate exchange like coinbase. However, even coinbase fought back from the irs probe and settled on providing them information if an individual has made at least 20k worth of activity. So if you're under 20k on coinbase, the irs will not get any of your information. I would suggest from here on out finding an individual to buy crypto from in real life. Avoid exchanges like coinbase. And if you're constantly cashing out, that may also be a red flag. Don't know why youd want to, fiat is the worst shitcoin.

Second, if you're trading on a bunch of shit chinese exchanges using a fake name, which I assume most are, the irs isn't going to know shit. Add on decentralized exchanges (which everyone should be using), and it's nearly impossible to track anything.

If the guy in op's photo only dropped less than 10k for bitcoin with usd on a legit exchange, then made a bunch of shitcoin trades on decentralized exchanges and elsewhere (under a different name), he's likely fine because none of his info will be reported by coinbase.

>>8360360
The IRS isn't some cartel where you have to worry about getting killed by a hitman. If they notice that you haven't paid you can reach a settlement. Better to be chased down and haggle for a reduction than to be an honest cuck and pay it in full on time.

>>8360387
even if you get away with it this year you could be audited 5 years from now. a close friend of mine got caught last year for shit he tried in 2013. had to lawyer up, wages garnished, the whole deal

>>8360387
Thousands... in a nation of hundreds of millions.... Hmmmm.... you might be retarded.....

>>8360455
>Bitcoin is no property

What the fuck? Yes. it is. All "virtual currrencies" are classified as property.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

>>8360448
Just never try to convert your BTC for USD and you'll be fine.

>>8360472
>the irs will not get any of your information.
Wrong wrong wrong you don't know what you are talking about. IRS sent out all of our 1099K's. You didn't get an email about yours being sent out because you're poor.

>>8360410
Just looking out for my fellow man.

American anons who taunt the IRS by not paying taxes on their crypto gains are like a toddler poking an 800 lb. gorilla and saying "he cant hit me he's a stupid gorilla"

>>8358750
>reminder to simply not pay taxes on crypto at all

good luck lawman, that'st why we have AR 15s ;^)

>>8360476
>wages garnished
can't garnish neets, we would literally starve and just go on government assistance or go to prison
fighting crypto is an empty battle

>>8360410
Clearly it's necessary. There's so many retards that don't even know the rules. How are you going to skirt the rules when you don't even know them?

>>8360463
Exchanges don't allow you to query past data with the API(that much overhead would be too expensive), but I believe when you export your orders they get the USD value of BTC at the time of every trade.

t. someone who uses the APIs daily

>>8359420
>Except it’s not reinvesting
Trading one investment property for another absolutely is taking a profit and reinvesting. This is unambiguous in law. A barter is legally equivalent to a combined sale for cash and purchase in cash. You're responsible for any taxes due on the sale, at equivalent cash value.

>>8359324
If you look at the percent increases, "Bush's Legacy" is just as bad.

>>8360497
>IRS classifies something AS porperty, then it has to be true and there is no way the opinion of the IRS could be wrong

What else should they say it is? Bitcoin and cryptos doesn't fall into any class. The jurisdication isn't able to fit it anywhere.

>>8359378
the 2nd half of what you said would a capital loss, which you can use to offset the original gains(unless the gains were from a previous year)

>>8360471
Meh. I'm paying my fair share, I don't get why the IRS would specifically target me when I actually report and pay my fair share, while millions haven't even filed. For 2017 only 10,000 people reported their crypto on their taxes. That's a risk I'm willing to take, paying taxes on crypto to crypto is a joke

>>8360604
Note that the balance for your capital gain taxes when you sell or trade away your crypto is that your losses are deductable.

>>8358750
If you are realizing gains of under 20k and are intending to pay axes you are a FAGGOT

buy XMR

>>8360087
>how would all your money go up in flames if you already cashed out in 2017? you only pay taxes on realized gains
In my example I said you had $99,000 in capital gains. I meant REALIZED capital gains(ie, you have made a trade or sold, they are both the same as far as the IRS is concerned).

>>8359841
not here

>>8360540
Not sure what you mean. Did you even read what I wrote? Coinbase has made it clear they will report to the irs those participating in activity over 20k, which is what I wrote in my initial post. Im not an idiot and don't use coinbase so I wouldn't know for sure. Fucking shill.

>>8360649
6 gorgillioin died for your sins goyim
crypto to crypto is taxable we need to defend greater israel

>>8360649

Paying taxes on anything crypto before it is converted into fiat is a joke. However the preference of government agencies is always overreach until someone slaps them hard enough to get them to knock it off. Taxes on those like to like transactions are utter bullshit and I guarantee you that the IRS knows this, but any excuse to make you cough up more is something that they will take until the Legislature, the Courts, or the President says otherwise.

>>8360702
>On Wednesday, a federal judge in San Francisco ruled that Coinbase must supply the IRS with identifying information on users who had more than $20,000 in annual transactions on its platform between 2013 and 2015. After noticing that the number of tax returns claiming gains from virtual currency didn’t line up with the emerging popularity of digital currencies like bitcoin as an investment vehicle, the IRS asked Coinbase to hand over a broad swath of information on its users. Coinbase pushed back, and now the court has landed on a compromise that the company is calling a “partial victory.”

>2013-2015
This doesn't line up with what you said. What about 2018?

>>8360593
On bitcoin.tax if you enter in that you bought a coin at a certain time and don't enter in any price, it automatically pulls up the prices an dollar value at that time. How does it do that then?

>>8360702
>>8360736
This is why I said he was wrong. He's applying the court ruling which affects old activity to the present. He doesn't know what he is talking about. The $20k limit has nothing to do with anything anybody is talking about in this thread.

remember that bitch in the congress crypto hearing yesterday
how arh we gona stop white nationalism bitcoin it's all white nationalist racists trading crypto OY VEY

and then the coinbase guy said we dedicate like 20% of our staff to blockchain analysis to identify where bitcoin is going in and out

>>8360736
Ya 20k in 2013-2015 is a lot different than 20k now

>>8360471
but going through your shit is essentially just a excel spreadsheet. Neither you or I have the appropriate records for a full on audit. Unless youve been screen capping every TX and saving every receipt.

>>8360731
Different cryptocurrencies are not "like-kind" transactions. If trading gold for silver, or a car for a truck, isn't like-kind, then neither is Bitcoin for USDT

>>8360818

Right. You and I can't prove shit, and the next stop is civil court if they take it there.

>>8360738
Maybe from coinmarketcap, or some other historical database, I don't know.

Quick googling brought me here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoMarkets/comments/6vxrc2/an_api_for_historical_price_data/dm3t8hr/

So that could be it. But if you look through that thread you'll see it's very hard to find anyone providing an API that does minute-to-minute transactional history. It would just be expensive to provide a public API for that much data.

>>8360818

This.

>>8360471
>t. takes his 65 year old boomer father's ramblings far too seriously

>>8360773
The 20k rule applies to whether the irs will receive your info off coinbase. Of course that can change in future. Are you saying that coinbase changed their minds and are now providing the irs with all coinbase users' info?

Oh look, another tax thread.

Well, I bothered to do the research into this. The idea of only paying "until you cash out to fiat" is entirely false. Every trade, including crypto-to-crypto, is a taxable event according to the batshit insane IRS. That means that even if you traded bitcoin to litecoin, if there was a gain in the USD value of that trade of bitcoin from when you purchased that bitcoin, you will pay tax on that gain.

It's fucking nuts. But unfortunately, that is the tax law.

Now, you have several options.

1) Do the extensive reporting on all your trades to the IRS and pay the amount that is owed. For some people this will be simple, others it will be a fucking nightmare.

2) Do the "middle ground" anyway, and pay the tax when converting to fiat

3) Dont report anything at all, the riskiest option, and hope for legislation to be passed to make it easier for you to report your holdings

4) Dont report anything at all and forget about the whole thing

The thing is this, crypto is in its infancy, and they cant go after everyone that didnt report, and many, many people have simply decided not to report their taxes. I think perhaps this year we will see more, but still not enough to get the majority of crypto holders to report.

See, crypto is a speculative asset, and its an emerging asset class. This means that it might actually be better for you to wait for legislation to be passed.

By reporting yourself to the IRS, even though you are voluntarily paying taxes, you are now on the IRS' watch anyway because you trade crypto...the IRS knows you trade crypto. By not reporting, you stay under the radar as long as you dont cash out huge amounts (anything greater than $50k I reckon).

There are also the decentralized exchanges coming out, and who knows whats going to happen if crypto REALLY is adopted, we might have a whole collapse of the dollar in which case, paying taxes in its current form might be moot anyway.

>>8360904
>Are you saying that coinbase changed their minds and are now providing the irs with all coinbase users' info?
Is there any evidence to say otherwise?

Has coinbase ever said "Don't worry guys, we don't provide anything to the IRS"?

If a company is selling/facilitating the trade of millions of assets daily, and making shitloads of money, in AMERICA, you don't think the IRS is going to pump them dry?

>>8360914
Actually option 2 is probably the riskiest "option". Since it's not even an option. If you're going to comply, comply fully.

>>8360914
To add on to this, I think at the end of the day, you should only be bothered to pay taxes if you are cashing out large amounts of cash to your bank account via coinbase and other services. That WILL get the IRS' attention. If that is the case, then it is best to be proactive and voluntarily report. You will have more control over what you pay, because you declare how much you pay, and most likely the IRS wont bother to argue with it.

If you decide to wait, and let the IRS come to you when you cash out a shitload of money, you risk them saying you owe XXX which might be more if you just self reported.

If you are NOT cashing out large amounts of money, I wouldnt worry about it at all. It's really a moot point. The IRS is already understaffed as it is and will only go after big players.

In fact I would argue that even if you're cashing out $200k-$500k, the IRS wont send anyone after you. It's the big big boys cashing out millions that you'll actually physically have agents coming after you.

Again I think its a moot deal because once crrypto is adopted (and adoption is coming fast) the tax laws will change tremendously and paying now runs the risk of you paying taxes for no good reason anyway.

Legislation might be passed that changes the tax laws completely.

>>8360914
I paid my taxes. My logic is once the IRS makes it easier to report, they are going to make people go back and pay their older returns. Literally every major investment exchange as well as Coinbase and Kraken report to the government now. They're not just going to be like "lol no worries" once things get in check. This will only be worse for those of us who trade on foreign exchanges.

PAY YOUR TAXES FAGGOTS

>>8360904
>Are you saying that coinbase changed their minds and are now providing the irs with all coinbase users' info?
Yes. That's exactly what I am saying. Coinbase sent my 1099K to the IRS and notified me that they did so. My bank also did the same thing (multiple deposits over $10k).

>>8360914

How is forcing yourself to create a taxable event just to pay taxes not illegal? How the fuck do they get away with this shit? Most coins don't have fiat gateways so you are taxing yourself just to pay.

>>8360914
choose 4 bois, choose a life of non cuckoldry

>>8360984
that's bullshit, the way I see it is you comply to the best of your knowledge and if there's a problem you can figure it out
you were honest and that counts in if they want to fuck you
the last 2 are the worst options, and in a day when all our computers phones and finances are tapped it's retarded to not attempt to pay even when the rules are not clearly defined

>>8360936
>is there any evidence to say otherwise?

Yes, the entire fight with the massive irs probe which was settled at the 20k minimum. That's the entire reason coinbase fought it, because they refused to provide information on their entire user base. Maybe they are lying but this is evidence that they are not providing blanket info.

And, off their site

>In the U.S., Coinbase files Form 1099-K for qualifying customers, as described below, that have engaged it at least 200 virtual currency sale transactions whose total value is equal to or greater than $20,000 during the calendar year.*

>>8361013
IRS considers every single coin as an asset. Same thing happens if you buy gold or precious metals. Taxable event. It's fucked.

>>8361036
Thanks, I actually just got off their site.

I don't know if that "200 transactions" is a qualifier, I'd just assume they send for anyone who sold $20k, which sucks for that person.

>buy crypto because you want a lolbertarian unregulated currency market
>end up just reporting it all to the tax man anyways
>dont even have money to pay taxes on gains

What the fuck is wrong with you cryptocucks

>>8361000
>My bank also did the same thing (multiple deposits over $10k)

So you're saying you moved more than 20k around in coinbase? Then yes, of course they will give you a 1099, they made that clear.

>>8359634
So you are forced to sell your coins at a loss and convert them to usd in order to pay taxes ? How is that possible ? So if you NEVER sell your crypto to fiat, you still have to pay taxes in fiat which forces you to sell the coins that you never sold to fiat.

That is fucked.

>>8361057

Does the IRS do this shit with magic the gathering and pokemon cards too? Do I have to declare all my magic card sales for this year? lmao

>>8361013
Because that's the only thing that upholds the fiat - taxation system. If you could get paid and conduct trade with gold or crypto without being taxed in fiat, then there would be a parallel economy that would emerge that destroys the dollar system.

We have to do these threads for the next month, don't we?

>>8360281
You can literally do this in ten minutes with cointracking.info

>>8361090

What's actually the funniest thing is if you only bought bitcoin (let's say when it was under $100) and NEVER trade it and hold, you owe $0 in taxes. LOL HOLDERS WIN AGAIN

>>8360914

From a legal perspective neither Fraud nor Tax Evasion have any statue of limitations IIRC. If the IRS can ever prove that you lied about what you made then you're fucked. If the IRS can ever prove that you made money that you didn't pay taxes on then you're fucked.

At this point the only thing that doesn't potentially lead to jail time is to snitch on yourself, but with tax rules being implemented in such a blatantly fucked up way it is almost guaranteed that you will lose money to taxes in a capacity that is patently unfair.

The IRS has been laying the groundwork for this for years, using their attorneys to cultivate preferable jurisprudence and using their investigative abilities to press for a dataset that can eventually expand to the point where they can hold everyone's nuts over the fire should it become convenient for them.

>living in a country run by (((christians)))
oy i love freedoms

>>8361101
Yeah? What about trading card shops, do they pay no tax on revenue from selling magic the gathering and pokemon cards because it's magic the gathering and pokemon cards?

>>8360369

First of all there are no crypto laws.

Secondly if their position is crypto to crypto aren't like kind then they are conservative and probably taking the best practices approach but ultimately it is ambiguous and we don't know what will be determined. We will only know when a court decides which will be years from now.

The new tax law does not apply retroactively.

FBAR is FBAR. I dont know why it would affect crypto unless you have a foreign bank account you are transferring fiat into or any other reason in which case yes you must report your bank account.

FACTA, also not sure what you're getting at.

>>8361090
That's how capital gains work anon.

Holding is the only way to go and then only withdraw enough to stay in the first or second tax bracket

>>8361068
Kek, also

>crypto created to liberate people from big centralized banks and big gov tyranny
>2018, everyone buying centralized banking coins and wanting to make sure to pay daddy gov their "fair share"

>>8361169
That's considered inventory and COGS. It's not a capital asset.

They would have a Purchases and Inventory account and then sell it and record it as Sales Revenue and COGS

>>8361169

That's not what I meant. I mean if I trade magic cards with other people online do I have to declare the change in value between the cards? If I trade my $100 charizard for an $40 blastoise do I realize a loss and can write it off on taxes? LOL

>>8361121
:)

>>8361135
This is fucked. I bought BTC at around $400 and a year later bought ETH with all of it. Then in Nov 2017 I bought BTC with the ETH.
When I do the tax forms on bitcointax it's says I owe 30k. I only did two transactions in 2 years and never sold any to usd.

I bought on usd>btc on Coinbase then btc>eth on poloniex and the eth>bitcoin again on bittrex. Am I fucked ?

>>8358750
Reminder crypto is primarily used in the real world by drug dealers and child sex traffickers

Nobody legally purchases any goods and services with this trash

>>8361101
you are supposed to.
professional poker players document every hand played after their industry found the spotlight on them.
it's best to avoid the spotlight.

if your magic card exchange generated output to the tax man then be aware the spotlight is coming.

>>8361255
You have to do it all manually. Bitcoin.tax is fucked for coinbase. It counts all deposits/withdrawals/transfers (even from Coinbase to Gdax or vice versa) as a salable event.

Mine says I owe $2,000,000 when I made about $70k in gains. Yea.

>>8360068
of course they do. but we hate them too. and if God exists he is definitely on our side. if you could either make all the neets disappear or make all the politicians disappear anyone with a brain understands the world would be far better off in the second scenario. uselessness is the most important virtue for us going forward. second is niceness. don't be useful because then their system will use you till you're dead. the one thing they cannot deal with is a useless bumbling nice person

>>8361223
You are setting yourself up for an audit if you claim enough losses from that.

>>8361112
>>8361013
This, this is really all to uphold Fiat. And what I am saying is that the days of fiat could be numbered if people really begin to adopt crypto, which is more than a likely scenario believe it or not.

>>8361139
>If the IRS can ever prove that you lied about what you made then you're fucked.

Well, not really. They will just slap an audit on you and tell you, that you owe XXX and prove us otherwise. With the IRS it is always guilty until proven innocent, because they are at their core a mafia agency and an enemy to USA citizens.

It really is a catch-22. it's a damned if you do, damned if you dont. If you report, you'll be guaranteed to yes, lose money to taxes in a capacity that is unfair. This has been going on for quite awhile, but the situation is really extrapolated with crypto because of the massive gains people experienced in 2017 versus the crash now. If people bought in 2017, traded around the top and didnt sell, they are in the negatives because technically they still had a GAIN, and they WILL owe tax (and they cant write it off as capital losses).

The tax laws are fucked up which who knows what will happen. Alot of change might come with crypto. It's damned if you, damned if you dont, and if mass adoption occurs the IRS will be royally fucked because they cannot possibly go after everyone.

>>8361255
You moved from one commodity to another. Those are capital gains you accrued. You didn't realize those gains until you traded the currency. You always had those gains but the event of trading from one coin to another makes those gains realized and taxable.

>>8361255

You might be fucked m8, you actually would owe nothing if all you did is buy BTC and ETH and never sold for anything. That's the silly part. At least the last transaction you made was in November which was before the bullrun, I shudder to think of all the idiots who realized insane gains in December and now are down 90%.

>>8361223
if you are audited the LOL will disappear and in the future you will carefully document all exchanges of value. i promise.

>>8359010
>I have lost an unkown amount of monero.
???
Police wouldn't care if you lost your BTC either.
Now fuck off faggot.

>>8360738
it can probably just reference an index price for the specified transaction time.

>>8361319

I will do that when I cash out. I have long term capital gains to pay but that's it, I am not a trader. I feel bad for people who sold everything on Coinbase and now are fucked for life and that's why I've been repeating HODL to newfags lately. I learned about the crypto to crypto bullshit back in December before we crashed and I made sure to set aside money for that. We had a lot of threads about it but nobody took it seriously until now.

>>8361303

It's not catch 22. It's literally Morton's Fork recycling back through the tax code. Either you accept getting fucked upfront, or get fucked much harder later on for your reason du jour. The IRS is coming to eat up the gains of anyone who didn't make crypto investment decisions with an extensive team of lawyers dispensing legal advice all along the way. They're literally coming after anyone who stepped out of their place

>>8361322
IRS would want a police report number if you claim asset theft. whether or not the police investigate is irrelevant.

>>8361319

The rope Approches closer every day. We will live to be crypto rich. and see the public hanging of traitorous kikes and race traitors.

>>8361304
>>8361293
>>8361306
Jesus so now I have to sell my BTC to USD when it's down 65% in order to pay my taxes, which will probably be higher than 30k because I have to include what i made at my job.
I asked at HR Block last year and they had to call to thier head office and they told me that as long as I never sold anything to USD, I dont owe taxes on it.
fuck!

>>8359787
Source?

>>8361391
Yea man I realized this about four weeks ago and opened a big short on BTC. You and the rest of the world are liquidating BTC to pay taxes. Just buy in May.

>>8361379
my sentiments exactly.
i handled audit engagements for a bank for years. i hope these kids understand what they're up against, but they don't.

>>8361391

Actually it also says this on the turbotax site as well. Several tax places are saying it doesn't really count until it's fiat, which makes me wonder if IRS is bullshitting with this or using this as a threat against anyone who trades crypto.

>>8361380
I'd like to see the IRS attempt to go after every NEET that played around with more than $100k in crypto gains when they can barely handle normal taxes. The situation is not as black and white as the IRS just waiting with their army of imagiinary lawyers and kangeroo courts to fuck with people. It's just not going to happen.

>>8361390
yet in reality the IRS plods along, an army of investigators with a new sector to leverage for budgetary increases.

>>8361424
I mean I always knew I had to pay taxes when I cash out but fuck me. Now I am going to be forced to liquidate during the worst % drop in 3 years because I trade BTC to Eth and back once.
and fucking HR Block's advice is what made me not worry about selling my eth for btc.
I fell really sick. Just started my taxes last night. Wife is gonna freak out. We both work very normal jobs and don't make alot of money.

>>8361391
Well you can actually declare a capital loss on that bitcoin but only a loss on from when your last purchased or transferred it to another currency.

Example, i'll use numbers to describe transactions.

1 - Buy Bitcoin with USD
2 - Transfer BTC to ETH
3 - Transfer ETH to BTC
4 - BTC to USD

1 - 2 : Say you made a gain of 10k, you owe x in Tax then.
2 - 3 : Another gain of 10k, another x in tax
3 - 4 : Say you lost 10k, now you have a capital loss you can offset your gains with

Your net capital gains tax will be the net amount of total capital gains and losses less withholding taxes. But this only applies if all this took place in one year. If it was over 2 or 3 years you'd have to declare a Loss Carry back, so you would need to declare gains for the previous years but in this year if you have a loss you can carry that loss backwards.

>>8361445
if you used an exchange that reports then computers do the heavy lifting. a report pops out with your social and what you owe and it's up to the bureaucrats whether you're worth their effort.

>>8360914
>1) Do the extensive reporting on all your trades to the IRS and pay the amount that is owed.
This is the only non-criminal option.

>2) Do the "middle ground" anyway, and pay the tax when converting to fiat
This is committing criminal tax fraud while bringing the suspicious transactions to the IRS's attention. Expect it to be investigated. If you're open about the transactions, expect to pay your full taxes anyway, with possible additional penalties. If you try to lie to them to make it work, expect criminal charges.

Whenever you transferred crypto away, when it was worth more than you got it for, that was taxable capital gain, and you should have accounted for that and immediately set aside money to pay your tax. If you failed to do so, and have gambled away the money you needed to pay that tax bill, you're faced with a choice between trying to get away with crime or accepting the consequences of your mistake.

Consolation: tax debts are like other debts. After making an honest mistake, you can negotiate with the IRS based on the reality of your financial situation. Their job isn't to ruin lives, but to extract tax revenue for the government. They have an interest in keeping you fiscally viable as a working taxpayer, in avoiding wasting tax money on imprisonment and other costly punishments, and not looking like idiots trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

>3) Dont report anything at all, the riskiest option, and hope for legislation to be passed to make it easier for you to report your holdings
Legislation won't retroactively nullify your unreported taxable gains from previous tax years. As with any crime, you might get away with it, but be honest with yourself that this is tax evasion, pure and simple.

>>8361491
Oh and source i'm an accountant in Canada. It may be different in the states but it shouldn't be that much different and the main logic should apply

>>8361445
They hired a ton of investigators after Obamacare was passed, and now Trump eliminated the mandate.
What do you think they are going to do with all the free time they have?

>>8361491
but if I sell now to usd that's a taxable event for 2018, not 2017, which is what i owe these crazy taxes on. We don't have 30,000 in the bank to pay 30,000 in taxes.

>>8361445

>When they can barely handle normal taxes

Nigga you don't even know what you're fucking with and you've ignored enough good advice just in this thread that I don't even feel sorry for you anymore. Full steam ahead on the Titanic.

>>8361391
>>8361424
They don't know what they're talking about and not experienced with people who do crypto to crypto trades. They probably think you just bought and held, in which case they're right. Contact some CPA's that are experienced with crypto traders and 100% of them will say like-kind doesn't apply, and you owe taxes on Fair market value - cost basis at each trade.

>>8358750
Never ever give your private info anywhere on Internet! Don't trust/use anything that asks for your private info (ex: Facebook. LinkedIn, Google, Payment Processors, Exchanges, etc) or if you really needed to use it, just use a fake information instead.

Just because a product/service is owned by a trusted company or a government doesn't mean they will not fuck with you. Don't underestimate the importance of your privacy.

>>8361527
You may be able to carry those losses back and pay the difference. If you have 20k in losses you technically should be able to apply it to the previous year. Honestly you should see a CPA and best case scenario you can have a payment plan with the tax institution in your country. I know the CRA would consider using your 2018 losses backwards in 2017 if you're unable to pay. You have to remember the tax man wants money and if you can't pay they're fine with getting less money

>>8358750
>land of the free

lmao

>>8361527

You're just going to have to go on some payment plan to pay them back. At least now you probably won't owe taxes for quite awhile. And I don't want to sound like an IRSfag, but let this be a lesson to set aside money for any and all taxes by the 31st of December, no matter what (even if you have to realize losses). Sell the shittiest of your shitcoins at the end of the year.

I think I'm going to tax evasion route (non-american)

Is it really evasion if the tax man never sends a letter to you, never asks you about the money?

I'm planning on holding my coins for another year and not trading them at all. Then when I cash out proactively do the crypto to crypto trades debt that I have from 16' and 17'. I'll have a lot more available to pay my debt then and it will affect me less than selling off in these bad market conditions at the moment.
And maybe crypto adoption or new laws will come in the meantime.

>>8361586
Or make sure to setup a corporation and trade with the corporation so if you really get fucked only the corporation is liable.

>>8361606

I suspect that at some point I'll read of your dramatic suicide as a footnote to another news story.

>>8358750
>state (California)
SPIC SPIC
BROWN AND SLICK

>>8361630

>implying that LLCs work that way

>>8361606
>Is it really evasion if the tax man never sends a letter to you, never asks you about the money?

that's precisely what evasion means. do you really think professionals do not have a counter for "I never got the letter"?

>>8361606
Yes it is evasion. You could get audited and fined for the tax owed plus interest. You could also keep ignoring it and hope after a few years there's not enough evidence to audit you (6+ years usually)

>>8361649
The owners shouldn't be liable for any losses or debts if i'm not mistaken. At least that's how it works where I live. I mean obviously if you were proven negligent you could get sued but I doubt the IRS would go that far as it's way more work and if you had a good lawyer you would probably be bullet proof.

>>8361586
>>8361568
Man now I know I fucked up bad but man this is so fucked. Are Poloniex and Bitrexx reporting this to the IRS ? I don't understand why they didn't send me a 1099 like Ameritrade did. dammit

What would happen if I was day trading like some of my friends ? How does one keep track of 1000s of trades in 2016 and 2017 before we knew about all this?
Only like 800 people paid taxes on crypto in 2017 for 2016. So no one knew that crypto to crypto trades were taxed.

>>8361659
It would probably still be better for me to pay the tax owed plus interest.
Don't want to sell of my ven strenght x node and link right now.
If they both go 10x during this crypto year i'll be way better off

>>8358750
They just take and take and take.

>>8361696

You dumb fuck. That isn't how an LLC works. If your LLC is considered to be an alter ego of you then it does not fucking protect your personal assets. There are legal standards that actually have to be met before corporate identity actually protects your assets.

Do you think I can discuss tax evasion with my financial lawyer?
Is there a possibility that he reports me?

>>8361738

>Is planning a future crime with an attorney ever a good idea?

>>8361498
>>8361500
>>8361520
>>8361548
Wow look at all the cucks coming out of the woodwork.

This is how I know half of the fucks here are here to spread doom and gloom and not here to actually give good advice.

>>2) Do the "middle ground" anyway, and pay the tax when converting to fiat
This is committing criminal tax fraud while bringing the suspicious transactions

Oh no, committing criminal tax fraud, how many people commit tax fraud every day and get away with it? The IRS has ridiculous laws and everyone knows it. You're a cuck. In fact I've never heard of anyone besides extremely high profile cases of people jailed by the IRS, could you imagine them going after and jailing crypto NEETS, its not going to happen especially when they were so unclear with their laws and the fact that the laws are so batshit insane to begin with.

You have no fucking clue how much legwork I had to do to even get a straight answer from LAWYERS on this topic. I had to go to several lawyers and half of them didnt know what the fuck to do.

>>8361520
>What do you think they are going to do with all the free time they have?
They are going to go after a crypto multi millionaire and attempt to scare everyone into self reporting. By that time, crypto would have already reached mass adoption and half the population will be committing tax fraud according to the batshit insane IRS

What is going to happen once the decentralized exchanges come? Whats going to happen once people catch on to Monero?

What's going to happen once the USD finally collapses and we have the bank runs that are inevitable? The IRS is FUCKED

Long term, the IRS is royally fucked, the bottom line is that if you plan on cashing out loads of money you should pay your taxes now. Besides that, you can wait it out until the USD collapses and by that time the IRS is fucked, they are a dead man walking

Quit the fearmongering you cucks and save it for Leddit this is 4chan niggers.

>>8361483
You should sue H&R block for this misleading information honestly. lol

>>8360041
Fucking this.

Come you bitch ass IRC cuck niggers.

>>8359187
>doesn't have the resources
you mean letterhead and an envelope? you retards are fucked

>>8361782
fitting that you use the image of a cult member to counter statements of posts recommending law-abiding behavior.

>>8361782

>I've only ever SEEN high profile cases of people going to jail

You exist within a land of tautological fallacy that I doubt that I could ever stumble into but that fascinates me nonetheless.

Fuck that shit. I'll let them come to me

>>8361698
Not sure exactly but I would think you'd need to record your gains and losses on each transaction. I have no idea if they report but if they do or the IRS requests transaction records people could be dinged.

>>8361724
Look believe whatever you want but that definition of corporation is

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/corporation.html
>an entity separate and distinct from its owners.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/corporation.asp
>legal entity that is separate and distinct from its owners.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/corporation
>an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members

ie. Separate LEGAL entity, you can sue the owners for damages but ultimately the corporation is separate from the owners

>>8361782
I wouldn't be suprised if they start black bagging crypto traders for supporting terrorism at this point.

One large terrorist attack that they tentatively tie to crypto is all they need. There are so many laws on the books about terrorist financing that they can basically tie anyone who has touched crypto to it.

>>8361555
This is a professional determination in accordance with conservative practice.
Bottom line is that it was arguable until the new tax plan. Therefore the IRS must argue it.

>>8361807
and don't forget the .5% interest every month you don't pay

>>8361821
>law abiding
You dumb nigger, the IRS is a criminal agency and should be abolished.

>>8361843

Again. I have no empathy for you whatsoever.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/alter-ego-rule/

You have been warned again and again and again. Have a good day fellow rabbit.

>>8359187
this. there's a good reason the IRS only obtained coinbase records for accounts with $20k+ in purchases. It's not worth the IRS's time or money to go after small fish in most cases. Once in a while they will go after a small fish or two to man "an example" of somebody, but they typically don't care about some small-time crypto investors $1k gain.

The Discord Pump group that is unstoppable.

https://discord dot gg/pbN4G73

>>8361928
that's fine. good luck.

>>8361954
I'll literally quote the government of Canada then

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.nsf/eng/cs06641.html

>Your corporation will have the same rights and obligations under Canadian law as a natural person. Among other things, this means that it can acquire assets, obtain a loan, enter into contracts, sue or be sued, and even be found guilty of committing a crime
It's a separate legal entity.

Then there's a LLC
>However, if a shareholder has another relationship with the corporation (for ex., as a director), there are circumstances when this person can be liable for the debts of the corporation. In other words, the person would not be liable for the corporation’s debts as a shareholder, but as a director.
Again this is where you're focused and you don't realize there's different kinds of corporations. YES you could get sued but the odds are very very very low and it can shield you from an event like some people are experiencing.

>>8361821
Ur one of them aint ya

>>8361928

>Abolished

Every fucking tax kike in the IRS needs to be guillotined and their head put on a spike. We founded this country and avoid taxes and by gum we'll do it again.

>>8361782
yeah pretty much this

>you need to report EVERY trade as a taxible event

>not giving us like assets

yeah they can get fucked. They're the ones who misclassified crypto and and put people in an impossible scenario.

bittrexx literally does not store my trade info past like.. 6 months. Ive been otherwise trading and buying / selling for years. no fucking way im sorting through hundredes or thousands of transactions and spending many many hours of my time to give the government money that they desperately tried to stop me from making

they can eat my dick. they're welcome to do the legwork themselves and send me a fuckng bill

>pay tax on losses

>>8361895
Like-kind exchanges have extremely stringent reporting requirements like that you need a "qualified intermediary" to handle the exchange, and you need a written statement from the other party identifying the replacement property.

It really never was an option. And even if HR Block was considering going that route with him, did they notify him of all these reporting requirements? Reporting every trade is not the conservative option, it's the only acceptable option. The only conservative considerations we have now is whether we have to use FIFO or can pick specific identification.

>>8361696
>I mean obviously if you were proven negligent you could get sued but I doubt the IRS would go that far
If you're committing tax evasion through a corporation you're the sole owner of, they're absolutely going to go that far. Same thing if you "made a mistake on your taxes" because you didn't hire an accountant to do them for you and give them all the information they needed.

A corporation that made a crypto-to-crypto trade needs to pay taxes on it. The only thing that can save you from this is to do your investing through a foreign corporation, incorporated in a tax-shelter country that has no capital gains tax. Normally you just pay a flat fee to the government of that country, then you only need to pay US taxes on money or assets you transfer back for your personal use. This can get legally complicated, and you do have to worry about that country pulling an exit scam and legally grabbing your assets (the US government and international law won't protect you).

In any case, you need to set up these sorts of arrangements beforehand. They won't retroactively free you from a tax burden you've already incurred.

>>8362064
they're also welcome to send agents to my house. I would advise they wear level IV plates if they want to talk business

>>8361223
Yes, you do technically. Obviously the IRS won't care if it's a small amount, but you are still legally required to do it.

They pretty much have to have these regulations, if they didn't tax swaps or barter transactions people would structure around and exploit them to avoid paying tax.

>>8362017

You, Sir, deserve everything that you inevitably have coming to you. If you are capable, then do take a moment to burn this moment into your memory. This was your signal to cease and desist, and you went digging for any reason to keep going. From this point on you have been warned of the consequences of persisting.

>>8362074
You can deduct losses, up to your gains + $3.5k, with the excess rolling over to following years.

So I bought BTC and traded a shit ton last year, i have like 3000 trades or something. I only put in like 500 bucks and at the end of 2017 I had sold 10k for fiat worth of btc, but my alt holdings were around 80k.

Since then everything crashed obviously, and now I only have like 25k left. I thought I only had to pay tax on that 10k Do I have to count that 80k as income? I have almost no money outside my crypto. I thought if I 'sold' for 80k that coutned as a gain, and then 'rebought' (ie crypto to crypto trade) the two cancelled eachother out? I can't afford this. I used western exchanges too like a brainlet for a while (bittrex and coinsquare).

If not why the fuck would you ever trade, you always pay tax and can never claim losses wtf.

I live in canada but I thought the laws were about the same.

>>8362100
people already DO do that. Its why artwork vending is so "lucrative"

>why yes, this 5x5 inch blue square of canvas is subjectively worth $600 to my client, he paid me in cash and im declining to reveal his identity out of respect for his privacy :^)

>>8362017
>>However, if a shareholder has another relationship with the corporation (for ex., as a director), there are circumstances when this person can be liable for the debts of the corporation. In other words, the person would not be liable for the corporation’s debts as a shareholder, but as a director.
>Again this is where you're focused and you don't realize there's different kinds of corporations.
You've misunderstood this badly. It's not because it's "a different kind of corporation", it's because you have multiple relationships with the same corporation. You're not just the shareholder, you're also an officer. You're being the director and the tax accountant for it, and therefore you can be liable (financially and criminally) for shenanigans.

>>8362141
The CRA only goes after people when it's easy, creating extra steps for them to go through acts as a shield. You can also subject yourself to favorable tax rules as a corporation and issue either salaries or dividends depending on what's beneficial. There's a reason most people establish corporations. The alter-ego rule only works when you're willingly negligent and using the corporation in a negligent manner. If you use the corporation as a corporation for trading and then get fucked with tax that's not being willingly negligent.

Joke is on the boomers. I'm cashing out my index funds and retirement to pay for last years taxes. Fuck their incompetence and retirement.

I will also be selling at market rate into the sell wall. Please join me.

>>8362098

I know your a troll and this is all FUD. but I can't wait till the masses start adopting crypto. Then what are the tax kikes gonna do,

Laws are absolutely useless without the means to eforce them. and everything you described is unenforceable so good luck getting your bitshekels ohh I'm sure they will try there will be a few martyrs. But if they come after me. I have literally nothing to lose. I'll be glad to become a real fucking fanatic and be the one to tighten the noose around schlomos neck.

>>8362181
I'm not talking about using it illegally. I'm talking about using it to shield yourself from debt. The taxman would most likely just take your corporations assets and liquidate them rather than hit you with tax specifically.

>>8362247
IM the on talking about killing IRS agents you fucking turbo nigger

>>8360298
My coinbase transactions look like this: 1K into BTC, sent to wallet, wallet sends 1k BTC to coinbase, sell to fiat. I don't trade on coinbase or gdax but on a bunch of shit exchanges, none of which have my info. Good luck to the taxman figuring out exactly where my crypto is or even what i hold. I am not telling them and i don't think they will care. Cash in cash out, pay the tax on it. I don't think they will care about my crypto to crypto trades.

>>8362275

The kikes have it coming. Anglo rage will make every lie the synogogue of satan told a reality.

>>8362218

You're an idiot. Without trace of irony, even speaking as someone very sympathetic to the kids who are trading in crypto, you are literally the person who the system is designed to stop and it will stop you very effectively. At this point you are not trying to abide by legalities and search for existing loopholes, you are instead trying to explain why what you think is a "loophole" will apply to you when you inevitably are called to account for your bullshit, either now or at some later date.

Remember, fraud on your taxes never hits a statute of limitations. If not this year, then maybe twenty years from now when it affects your wife and children and the IRS can leverage them against you.

>>8362361
This isn't fraud though.

This is literally trading crypto with a company. There's nothing illegal about that. If you have a family trust that owns a corporation and that corporations owns your crypto trading business then even better. This is basic business sense, who the fuck takes a risk while taking all the liability. Literally every consultant and CPA would setup a business this way. It's how anyone with any sense does it.

>>8362308
You've lost it. the only thing anglos rage at anymore is when their faggot streamer dies on fortnite or some other gay shit

just embrace the decline and try and get yours while you still can

oh and buy guns

>>8361782
>They are going to go after a crypto multi millionaire and attempt to scare everyone into self reporting. By that time, crypto would have already reached mass adoption and half the population will be committing tax fraud according to the batshit insane IRS

This reminds me of torrenting back in the day when they used to give kids for downloading a movie half a million dollar fines. They always over reach then have to pull back...... fucking retards.

>>8362361

Breath in the Gas kike shill. The kikes be around for another twenty years They'll either be turned into ash and soap and whites will be to cucked to survive the brown onslaught.

One side is gonna lose and it better not be whitey.

>>8362407
trading crypto with a company opens you up to WAY more intense regulation you dipshit

Trust me, everyone has had this train of thought before. its not worth it. You open yourself up to much more struct scrutiny

just convernt you bags to monero from time to time and tell the feds to get fucked. They're welcome to try and analyze that mess of a blockchain

>>8362259
If you made a taxable capital gain, at that time you had the clear opportunity to set aside money for your taxes. For instance, when you did a crypto1-to-crypto2 trade where the market value of your crypto2 acquisition was higher than the amount you spent to buy the crypto1, you could have split off part of your crypto1 and made a crypto1-to-fiat change so you'd have tax money. If you didn't do so, then as an officer of the corporation, you made a managerial decision not to exercise due diligence in making the necessary preparations to pay the corporation's taxes.

You couldn't get away with that shit as the director or accountant of the corporation even if you weren't also the sole shareholder. If you say, "Okay, my corporation owes taxes because it made a profit, but the corporation went broke after the tax year ended, so it can't pay them lol." they *will* investigate how that happened, whether negligence was involved, and explore their options for extracting that owed tax from the negligent party.

>>8362461

Fuck well I'd better give up my white card and Kill myself for being to retarded for the Atyan Ethnostate.

>>8358750
there's an easy solution to all of this:

>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS
>BAN THE IRS
BAN THE IRS

don't tell me I'm the first one to come up with this

>when you're within tax-free allowance
Government may be cheering at Ahmeds raping children, but at least they won't be raping my wallet.

>>8360298
That's utterly ridiculous and retarded. How can they declare every transfer a sale when it is clearly marked as a transfer within Coinbases own system?

Hell how much btc are you moving around? How could it even be possible...you telling me you have thousands of btc you're moving around? The fuck? Your story sounds like bullshit amigo

Did anyone else just come to the conclusion that crypto would have crashed long ago if everyone involved had been trying to do the necessary crypto-to-fiat conversions to pay their capital gains taxes?

Think of it: every time you do a crypto-to-crypto trade, you have to set aside a significant percentage of your gain as fiat to ensure you can pay your taxes. How could the ponzi bubble survive in the face of all this divestment?

>>8362885

That's why they used the Judicial Branch. There is no defense against ex post facto laws that applies to jurisprudence.

>>8361568
>You may be able to carry those losses back and pay the difference. If you have 20k in losses you technically should be able to apply it to the previous year.
This is so wrong it hurts. You CANNOT carry capital gains losses backwards, only forwards.

The Discord Pump group that is unstoppable.,,

https://discord dot gg/pbN4G73

>>8362925
What are you talking about? The idea that you make a capital gain as soon as you trade one asset for another (even if it's the same type of asset), regardless of whether you sell it for cash as an intermediate step, was well established long before anyone considered it in relation to crypto. There's nothing "ex post facto" happening here.

>>8362726
No thats how they do it. Mine are the same, though mine summed equals negligible profits so at least theres that LOL

>>8361500
t. IRS cuck

>>8362064

i'm not sure how it works with the IRS, but I'm fairly confident that the HMRC here in the UK have got the power to say "this is how much tax we think you owe us for the XX/XX tax year, and this is how we've worked it out".

At which point you absolutely owe them that money, and the onus is on you to prove that they've got their calculations incorrect.

If you haven't been paying someone to keep a close track of your personal finances or kept track of it yourself, and you try to defend yourself with "I disagree with how much you say I owe you but haven't got the paperwork to prove it" then lol.

An accountant I know says that the absolute best way for most is to minimise your tax liabilities is to pay them - in full, on time, and as they fall due. Says that he can't believe how many people try to do all sorts of creative workarounds and end up fucking up, resulting in penalty interest etc.

>>8363392
Tax fraud is serious business, you can be prosecuted for it as a felony for up to six years after you commit it, and your civil liability (including punitive damages) never goes away. How often, when you hear about someone respectable losing it all, do you hear tax evasion or tax fraud mentioned?

However much you dislike taxes and the IRS, thinking that you'll somehow get away with tax fraud is a path to disaster.

Serious question:

If I take all my crypto gains and use it to "invest" into my own small business, can't I write off everything that I personally purchase for my business as a personal net operating loss?

>>8360604
Sure
so you trade NANO for BTC.
Have a withdraw limit of 20k per day. Bitcoin crashes. You now have a debt of 20 million because NANO mooned before.
KEK

>>8364173
>can't I write off everything that I personally purchase for my business as a personal net operating loss?
Equipment purchases aren't operating expenses, but depreciation on them is a loss. There are rules for how you can claim depreciation. Also, if you're buying stuff that isn't needed for your business and trying to write it off as a business expense, that's tax fraud.

>>8364298
Except you can trade the bitcoin for USDT, then trade back for BTC, which is a taxable event, and offset your tax liability completely since you have a net LOSS for the former trade....

>>8364298
If you don't want to be exposed to that risk, then don't do direct transfers from one high-risk investment to another, sell one for cash first, set aside enough to pay your tax on the gain, and then buy the thing you're speculating in.

>>8364370
yeah NANO to cash or USDT great idea
tether blows up and you can not directly trade alts for usd

>>8364421
Oh yeah the NANO fucking meme

not like i lost 10s of thousands on that faggot shit just for them to rebrand and ignore it all

>>8361961
they obtained 20k+ accounts because coinbase filed a complaint/sued after they requested ALL records

>>8358750
and this is why people can't get out of middle class in america

>>8359841
No, it's not like that anywhere else. The US is the only country that taxes trades between cryptos.

>>8366266
austria and germany too

>>8359118

That's why you only trade unverified.

>>8366373
That why you only lose and don't have any gains, because unverified can't withdraw

>>8358750
Not in the UK. Have fun in the land of the free, in the UK we have like-for-like tax exemption.

>>8360984
I would argue its not because its paying your fair share. as long as the IRS gets their cut they are happy

>>8363680
Its not tax fraud, its logic. Do you pay taxes when you exchange gold for silver?

What if I bought btc, ether, and ltc from coinbase but used it to buy specialty tea for my kombucha?