/biz/ - Business & Finance

you can make 50k a year just playing 200NL... If you play 1000nl, that's 250k a year...

> percentage of people who say they are going to be a professional poker player and don't make 2 cents
99.8%
> percentage of people who say they are going to be a professional poker player and make liveable income or better
0.2%

good luck!

This isn't 2006.

you know any other day i would troll the shit out of u , but i am in a good mood , so herers the deal , i was a professional poker player , made avery decent living out of it , but i stopped to porsue other things in my life . Onlie poker is a hobby , period. you win some you loose some but thats it you wont make a living out of it . Go to a casino play with real people. analyze them , study them . for starters go play at the times the drunk people show up , usually after 11 pm . If you cant make money of a drunk person poker isnt for you. play it slow , observe the hands , watch how people raise the bets , fold . only way to win is through experience. play play play , keep it tight dont bluff in the beginning just play the good cards until you feel confident and good luck

>>798188
kek no
there's lots of people who make money
i know a good handful of guys just in my city that can make 1k a night at 200nl ez

>>798500
i was going to write a long and helpful thing getting into 200nl and 1k then i realized that op is MIA and this was a fucking shill thread for pokerstars GODDAMIT THIS IS WHY I DONT FUCKING HELP PEOPLE !!!!!

>>798091
They are correct. Googles your friend but for a tasty anecdote lets use mr blizerian who 4vhan knows and loves

Dude has won a pittance in any real poker tournie. Might buy a house somewhere but def not bang strippers on yachts all day money. His dad was a corporate raider and he has a sweet trust setup

>>798091
Its high variance and high stress. Go to 2+2 forums and you'll see why being a pro sucks dick.
>>798179
1000nl is full of grinders that have been playing the game for a long time. You can only have like 1 or 2 leaks against these players or else you're screwed.

>>798473
>>798482
Gets it.

>>799075
if they were full of grinders none of them would make money due to nash equilibrium meaning they would all end up losing money to the rake

sharks go where the fish are

>>799101
Except rake (and people trying to play GTO) is what is killing the profitability in NLHE right now so what's your point?

Fuck Black Friday is all I have to say. Online poker is how I afforded to drink and party in college, it was relaxing and made me money.

Fuckers.

Oh, and I never looked into it but I guess fuck Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer?

>>799105
rake is actually very minimal in the higher stakes
casinos usually do 5 bucks max at 1000nl while home games will go as high as 20% uncapped

>>798188
This.

Professional poker is a meme.

>>798091
the money to be made in poker is from people who are there to gamble. since poker is illegal in most of america that means a huge pool of people playing online poker are ginders who actually know how to play the game. if you're really good you're going to win some and lose some against them but your ROI won't ever be enough to do anything substantial.

right now there isn't anything wrong with playing as a hobby and getting your skills sharp in case the world comes to an end and online poker is legalized. you can absolutely make money when the fish come swimming but right now you're just going to be grinding against people who have been playing longer and better than you.

I play on bovada btw. its pretty easy but its not like I make enough to buy a new car or some shit.

>>798188
This is not true.

I'm a professional poker player from 2010 and I have made over 500k.

>>798091
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32/beginners-questions/dgiharris-10k-pooh-bah-post-turning-pro-1426688/

I'll just leave this here. Do you still think you have what it takes?

>>799308
>http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32/beginners-questions/dgiharris-10k-pooh-bah-post-turning-pro-1426688/

honestly just draw up a business plan for playing poker for a living like you would to start up any business. like... actually make a multipage document stating what yours goals are, what you aim to prevent from happening, how you aim to achieve these goals, what you're projections are, etc..

most people fail poker because they don't realize that being a pro is similar to being a small business.

it may sound overboard, but does a six figure income sound overboard to you? i mean, shit, even 50k and you're good.

>>798091
The grind is real. You won't make as much playing poker professionally anymore.

>>798179
Depends on how long you can grind so it's really a job that you have to log hours in week in week out or you won't reach 50K in 200NL. I played 200NL and 100NL and I haven't made 50K in lifetime winnings.

>>798482
Online is better because of volume and you won't get bored. Live is very very slow, you have to be reading a book while you play live or you won't last.

>>799421
making 50K is very difficult because you have to put in so many hours even when you don't feel like it

when I played whenever I wanted to, I got like 50 hours a month

when I bet who can put in more volume with someone for $100, I got like 88 hours in a month and lost the bet

it's extremely difficult to put in tons of volume while playing 1000 hands an hour and still be profitable, not tilt when you are downswinging, etc.

So while online poker is profitable, it is a very tough way to make a living

>>800625
yeah its is a job; it's like being a small business.

>you have to read a book or you won't last

There is SO MUCH INFORMATION you are missing out on. If I'm card dead, I just sit there and focus on a person of interest and establish their baseline behavior and betting patterns and whatnot.

>making 50k is difficult
>playing only 50 hours a month
I aim for 50 hours a week. I also play live for money, and online just to fuck around on the micro stakes. Sure, it gets boring being card dead and I'm at a table full of regs, but there are many times when I was "card dead" at a real job and it's no different.

Another thing, I'm American, so online poker isn't really viable for me unless it's the micro stakes.

>>800636
I'm really not, live players are weak and predictable. I already know after a few hands all the ranges of the players at the table (and from previous sessions I know a lot of the regs). I've only seen one good lag at 1/2/3 in months of playing at the stake, and zero actually good players at 1/2/2

50 hours a week is fine if you're doing live
but it's insane if you're multitabling online because of how much more information you have to process

I get very tired playing multiple tables online, and very bored live

yo iopq, dyel anymore?
ever make any gains?

>>800644
I'm still injured, just started benching again after more than a year and I started with 65 lbs lol

I'm up to 115lbs x8

>>800640
you need to start playing 2/5 minimum. at 1/2 and 1/3, the rake is too high for serious players. you'll find things to be harder at 5/10. Try finding some 10/20 games if you can.

also, multitabling draws down your roi vs just four tables or even one table. this is because the amount of thinking you can devote per hand which is very minimal.

do you play PLO or stud?

>>800652
It doesn't, actually. I've played like half a million hands of poker, the amount of effort I need to expend on a hand is minimal.

When playing zone poker I only have two tables open anyway. It's still probably 400 hands an hour at peak times, maybe 300 hands an hour when you have to wait a little bit each hand for tables to fill up.

I don't have a 20K BR to play 2/3/5, it will probably take me 6 months at the low stakes to make 10 more grand

who bumped this subliminal ad ?? fuck you op

>>800658
have you played single table for a long period of time to compare how you perform to multitabling? what's the difference in ROI?
it seems like this game is really easy for you, but you don't have a big enough bankroll to actually suggest that it's something you can profitably do after half a million hands...

you can play 1/2 with just 1k, 1/3 with 1.5k and 2/5 with 2.5k live.

>zone poker

Bovada? No wonder...

>>800668
I lost 1.5K at 1/2/3 before to awesome coolers, there is no way you can play it with 1.5K

I got two outed on the turn, etc.

Edges have gotten so slim online. Everyone is accessing high level training videos/books. It's not like the early days when you could stack-off 100bb deep with top pair and be good 95% of the time.

I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, I'm saying that it requires a particular "grinder"-like mentality. It's no longer easy money. You have to study your opponents, work out what they're doing to exploit you and know how to adjust accordingly. That shit takes hard work and devotion. Work that will likely pay off better when committed to other moneymaking pursuits. And going through a block of 20k/50k/100k hands of negative variance when your edges are already so small to begin with is fucking nightmarish. It literally starts to feel like God has cursed you or something. You'll never understand what it's like until you experience it. PLO is even worse. It's like the game was intentionally designed to make players go insane.

Though I haven't played live poker, I suspect that that is where the easy money is. That's where you get the drunk middle-aged businessmen/"fun-players" making huge mistakes consistently. If you have access to several good live games, you can probably make a decent middle-class living out of it.

>>800676
if you got two outed on the turn, you got sucked out on. you do have a higher chance of ruin with a smaller roll, but it's not guaranteed you're going to lose. it's roughly 10%.

>>800681
the fish are live and well. plus, not everyone is good at reading peoples behavior or able to sit for hours and stay focused. you can actively needle your opponents, when online everyone blocks the chat.

>>800698
also lost straight vs. straight, but only half a buy-in because I didn't go all in suspecting he has a straight

so coolered and sucked out on

>>800703
a cooler is when they already have the hand
a suckout is when they don't have it yet

>>800708
I just said that, I got coolered and sucked out on

I got coolered when he flopped a higher straight
I got sucked out on when I got two outed on the turn

>>800722
i thought you were saying he two outed the straight

>>800732
I wrote it wrong, I admit that was confusing

Just stacked this guy on another table and here he goes hitting his fucking gutshot. Only decent player on the table, too.

#lovinit

>>801272
he played that hand perfectly

why did you donk bet the river?

I play professional MTT poker.

I'm here to figure out what to invest my winnings in.

>>798091
i used to live off my poker winnings up until about 1 1/2 months ago, but ill be honest with you. i made what equals about minimum wage in my country when i treated online poker as my 9-5. partially, because i am just a mediocre player and partially, because i generally lack the bankroll to move up in stakes and im somewhat dependent on making a certain amount of money per month. as for pros and amateur tournament players.. 85% of the time they enter a tournament they dont win ANY money at all, 15% of the time they cash, but obviously that doesnt mean they actually win the tournament. as for roi there are many websites that track poker winnings. btw i mostly played PLO cash games. reason i recently took a break is because i need to study for my bachelors degree and my hourly rate is too shit to spend my time playing poker.

>>801780
wanted it to seem like i was bluffing
turns out i actually was

this hand was the first time i had seen him do something like this, but now that i know his level of thinking, im going to be able to put this in his range. and you're right, it was very beautiful. especially considering the effective stacks, this was a train wreck of a hand.

>>798091
>>798091
Started studying when I was 11. Started making a profit when I was 16 off of my family. Uncle is professional, great teacher. Made a living off of it for a few years after turning 21. "A living" is starting with a 10k bankroll, playing locally for a $50 buy-in, grinding for hours, make a couple hundred bucks, and pay my rent. Never profited online because Im just not that good (and wasnt of age, so had to give my uncle $50 to have him deposit it into my account so I could lose it promptly), only good enough to profit off of the drunk Chinese restaurant owner thats at my local casino every night losing thousands. I quit by 24 because nobody as young as me should be stressing that bad for that long. It paid my rent, grindy as fuck, and was pretty lame when for a month and a half all I managed to do was lose $200, then finally make 3k. Unless you have an extremely solid comprehension of basic grade school arithmetic, the personal finance skills of the top 1% of america, and have read like at least a half dozen, really, really good books, have thousands of hours of practice applying said books, oh, and a serious bankroll to miserably fail on, dont ever consider it. Play for "fun", and come play with me.

>>803122
if you can't beat online poker consistently at the micro stakes, you shouldn't attempt to be a professional because you won't make good money live outside of Vegas or similar places with good action 24/7

>>803125
Was like 15 when online was big, I didnt start out on micro's cuz I was a moron. Ive have better luck in Reno than Vegas, weekends only. Weekdays the competition is mindbogglingly more brutal.

And even outside of all of that, that statement is just completely incorrect in general. Online removes such a massive amount of the game, as anyone worth posting on here with an opinion should know, that it requires a more specific set of skills attuned to it. Literally have to niche your own skill set. When the guy gets 72os, and looks at his cards and screams "OH FUCK ME!", I have a slight tell on what he may or may not have. Online, when he screams, I do not.

>>803122
This story is eerily similar to my day trading stocks story, I'd be down hundreds and suddenly pick up a five bagger but then that would make me up 2000 for the month which is just like a secretary salary right?

Just like Poker the penny stock market has gotten crazy amounts of sharks and profits are really thin for guys at my skill level.

Sorry off topic but just saying I can see how being a poker player is having tried the day trade thing myself.

>>803128
it doesn't matter, if you can't beat online poker you're very bad at poker

that's why I said that outside of Vegas and similar places you shouldn't play live - because it's only profitable on weekends and it's not a good idea to grind only weekends unless you grind very high stakes (which you can't because you can't even beat online micros)

>>803128
>not being able to read timing tells online

>>803167
honestly i don't suggest trying to beat the micros because there's just too much variance it can be far more hindering. you can't play against people who are gambling, after all.

that's why i suggest starting at 200NL, because the money is enough to force enough people to think, and that's where the money starts coming in.

>>803183
You think there is no variance in live? What are you smoking?

>you can't play against people who are gambling, after all.

You know how I know you haven't played live games? Because tons of people gamble all in in live games. Also, do you know how I know that you're not a good player?

This is like the equivalent of "moving up where they respect my raises"

>>803198
Everybody on the Internet is a poker star that knows all the ins and outs of Las Vegas

>>803201
If you can't beat micros you can't beat 200NL, period

>>803198
you are a pretty fucking stupid person wow
in PLO the variance is actually so high it's debatable whether or not the game is actually beatable. in micro stakes, people just don't give a fuck more so than at higher stakes, resulting in a very different game. you honestly can NOT think against someone who either doesn't know what they are doing or just doesn't give a fuck. therefor, the variance becomes HIGHER.

keyword: HIGHER

Did you know that I wasn't saying that there isn't any variance in hold em? I didn't. I actually said :too much variance:. You want a stable ecosystem, which, more often than not, is maintained by the sharks.

>>803217
Keep talking, all the people who know how to play poker are already laughing at you.

You clearly don't get it, and you need to visit two plus two to get educated. I don't have the time for this shit, take it as a victory if you'd like.

>>803217
>oh i got a pair i got something
>im going to bet or call any bets!

>oh i got a fucking royal flush
>im going to bet or call any bets!

>i got a pair, but I also wasn't the original raiser, so should I check here?
>what size bet will make me fold compared to the board texture?
>he does open from that positions with an unbalanced range consisting of mostly suited face cards/strong pairs to weak suited connectors/low pairs
>what are the chance of improving my equity on the turn?

>oh great, this fucktard
>he bets/raises 100% of his range
>and he does so blind more often than not
>sure, i just need to call down with x% of hands against him, but i'd rather play against someone who i can have a more secure winrate against

>>803220
i'd much rather play against someone who is exploitable rather than only playing GTO against someone who's playing blind.

>>803223
>>803221
Those are the people you should have the highest winrate against because they are the most exploitable

Do you even think before you post?

>>803227
>trying to exploit someone pulling a lever

Not only do you need an extremely large bankroll of at least 10,000 BIs, but you need to be buying in for at least 250bbs. do you even know how to play GTO against a lever?

>>803234
You don't need 10,000 BIs because a person gambling like that doesn't get lucky 10,000 times in a row

I'm not trying to exploit them, I am exploiting them because people who play like that are extremely predictable - I know they'll play a very wide range of hands and I take note with what they do when they miss

do they bluff when their nothing hand misses? do they just give up?

Do you really think someone who's gambling doesn't have tendencies and leaks and habits? I made over $1000 from this one guy who was playing loose and passive in one night and kept rebuying

But you're clearly too good to beat fish

sup, I play for a living. Fwiw, I live in a country that has an average wage of a bit under 1000$, so it is pretty chill. Also lack of graphs in the thread. Pic related, lifetime graph.

>>803217

Also this guy has no clue about poker whatsoever, all his posts are tilting and borderline banworthy. If troll, a really bad one.

WOW, so many dumbfuckers not knowing shit about poker!
>>803258
What you played only 700k hands for your lifetime??
OP you can make some money in poker, start with some pokerstars academy, watch some online videos, go on 2+2 forum (best one), register on stars and play SnG for play money, start cash games (micro limits), slow and TAG game. ALWAYS follow the rules about BR, dont be pussy to bluf and dont be donk to make bad calls, always put pressure on oponents! Dont expect something big but go for it, also people are getting better at this game, if you want max profit go for PLO, people play that and dont know shit, holdem is my game but I would recomend you PLO. Dont play on big sites like Pstars! Go for 888 and absolute and some shits like that, some local online websites. It takes time to be good at it.
Also: higher stakes=/=higher profit
tournaments=a lot of luck and patience
more you play you become better
everyone is tilting and playing bad when they lose, take advantage of that. play at night, watch timezones...if its friday night and people come drunk you will be amazed how many idiots and good players (drunk one) do shity moves on tables. Buy holdem manager!
>I play for living

>>803285

not everyone is a 24-tabling nitbot.

>>803139
I dont know much about day trading. *shrug* But yea, I could definitely go weeks without much profit at all. Luckily, Ive only ever walked out of a casino with less money than I walked in with twice, and they were some pretty silly bad beats that I had to get up and walk away from due to tilt, one time $50, one time $150, though I was up several hundred both nights. My local place wont let me cash out till I go home, the bastards... Not bad for a few years of regular playing.

>>803167
Lol. Ive concluded you dont know what you're talking about, or trolling. Keep being the king of Vegas man, Ill keep enjoying years of steady profit.

>>803171
Eh, I was 15, with less than a week of online experience, and zero online reading. And based off your posts I can assume you'd know those dont compare to live tells for a multitude of reasons, so it didnt transfer much, especially then when I barely had a grasp on live. I paid for quite a few eve plex's for about a year straight via eoh purely on numbers alone, but the competition there isnt exactly world class. Never really took the time to try to figure out what someones lag meant, lol. =P

>>803203
>>803220
>>803245
Like... This counts as proof for baiting right? Dear god... All I can do is shake my head and feel bad for the guy. Quite literally posting text directly against recommendations of world class players. It has to be a troll.

> 50k in a year

bullshit even most higher stakes players don't earn that much.

If you're talking about really high stakes, yes it can be profitable, probably it is not profitable. If you're smart you would go into sports betting its much easier to run profitable in sports betting than poker, especially higher stakes.


Getting a degree in a competent area and working an actual job will likely net you more income and it will result in less stress because you got suck out'd for the xxxxxth time.

>>803474
50k a year is really pretty doable.

>>803474
Oh the 99% who have somethin to say on things they dont even participate in, clearly. 5k, 50k, 500k, 5 million, it scales with skill... The math is simple, proven time and time again.
Anyone who ever complains, or really even mentions a suck out or a bad beat without "I got emotional and illogical" in the same sentence clearly shouldnt be giving ANY advice, what-so-ever about poker.

Side note, my uncle whos been playing about twice as long as Ive been alive and is so fucking beyond me it blows my mind, has a physical log book of every game hes played in the last 40 years, with net profit and losses. Theres been multiple years that were 50K plus, and the fucker owns a construction business, its hits god damned hobby... Which apparently includes going to the WSP circuit events multiple times a year... And profits. God Im jealous. Anyways, hes never had a net loss in a year for over 25 years. Ive seen up to -10k in a single month, but of course anyone who knows math knows it balances out in the long run. Hes up in the 400k range total profits to date.

And a correction on a previous statement of my own, Ive technically left a casino 3 times with less, not two. Mentioning the WSP made me recall droppin $200 just to say I played at the WSP with my uncle once... I went in fully aware that I was outclassed, and paying for pro lessons. Got to see a couple TV idols though :) I dont generally consider it a loss in my head.

>>803494
If you've got the time and patience to wait for stuff to balance out in poker you're better off doing something more productive it will earn you more in the long run. Poker is romanticized, I don't know anything more boring than running a statistics program on one screen and pokerstars on the other clicking away. If you make profit you're just sitting there clicking away.

Nothing made me feel more bored than grinding on pokerstars, only the upswings motivated me and in the end it didn't motivate me as well.

To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason. Even some lumberjack who never plays cards can get final tables in WSOP events. To say its a skillgame is a bit nonsense. It is a game of chance that you can influence a little with your skill.

I don't like poker, only the casinos win. If you're decent at sportsbetting you can make more imo. Ofc not the type of sportsbetting that you see these '' advisors '' do often they make retarded parlays that are waay too risky. I heard a podcast recently that was saying ''Nah I don't bet on 1.30's under overs since they don't pay enough'' and I was like ''are you fucking retarded''? They are really easy to make good parlays on, even if you just bet on 1.30s and get the right picks its highly profitable.

>>803511

lol

how much did you lose

>>803245
but you're playing a lot of different people and you could get unlucky for a couple of years in a row. this does actually happen.

>not trying to exploit
>but i am

Okay...

What do you do when someone literally bets/raises 100% of their hands, though? What about 90%? That they will only play all in every single hand? Are these the games you REALLY want to be playing?

Sure, they might have a tell or two, but more 90% of the time, they just want to see if they are good. As in, they don't know and even if you can read that they don't know, you don't know what they could have except not for the absolute nuts.

I see these types of people coming to the games I go to, and they either go up 10+ BIs or they go down 10+ BIs. You clearly don't understand different rates of variance. Once you start having to open up enough of your range against just one person, other people are going to start playing at you differently.

>>803367
If you find someone that's on a lot of tables, they will naturally end up using their timebank more often than someone that's only on one table. If that person on only one table is using their timebank, either they are putting a lot of thought in their hand or they want you to think that. You can also see who bets very fast when they bluff or if they hit their draw and whatnot.

>>803474
>even the higher stakes players don't earn that much

Are you fucking retarded? They earn fucking MILLIONS.
50k is doable at 500NL ez. Honestly, if you AREN'T making 50k a year, then you're doing it wrong.

>>803511
>i don't like poker
>only the casinos win

Have you ever played a rake free game fucko?

>>803554
>What do you do when someone literally bets/raises 100% of their hands, though?

Pick hands that beat that range

Maybe you should download poker stove before arguing. 4chan is fucking awful at poker discussion, this is cancer and not in a trolly good way, but in a "I have no idea what I'm arguing about way"

God, some of the people in this thread, I swear

>>803511
>If you've got the time and patience to wait for stuff to balance out in poker you're better off doing something more productive it will earn you more in the long run. Poker is romanticized, I don't know anything more boring than running a statistics program on one screen and pokerstars on the other clicking away. If you make profit you're just sitting there clicking away.

A. Balance out? Im in the profit quite literally EVERY DAY, for 365 days a year, for 4 years straight, outside of THREE events that was a net loss of a total of $400, match that up against the five digit yearly return I get on it, yea I can wait for that to balance out all damn day.
B. If you're sitting there grinding away playing purely tight aggressive vs the loosest of the loose, pull out your damn cell phone and educate yourself on Khan or something, its what I do at the casino.
C. I dont click for profit. I only play live with a b-e-a-utiful rake at my local casino. And no, Im not talking about that tool you're holding.

>To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason

Thanks for the laughs, but thats just adorable. First off, basing your defense off of... ANYTHING of what your authorities say is a joke. ESPECIALLY math. You know what would be really great support to you argument against everything those same 10 millionaires at the final table say? MATH. But if all you can comprehend is what comes out of a judges mouth, whom obviously have never made a mistake or been wrong about anything in all of time, then here ya go bud:

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2012/aug/21/judge-rules-poker-isnt-gambling-under-federal-law/

>I don't like poker, only the casinos win.
I... Uh... Wha-... God damnit... Why the fuck did I take the time to type all this shit, clearly, you dont even know what game we're talking about.

>>803557
Yes, you pick a GTO range, and THAT'S IT. You eat up the variance, which is going to be fucking high, you dumbfuck. How do you not realize this? You're going to have to go all in with many hands preflop that you're not comfortable with, especially with other people at the table. Dumbest of fucks.

>>803590
Ditto. Federally, poker is recognized as a game of skill.

>>803511
>To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason. Even some lumberjack who never plays cards can get final tables in WSOP events. To say its a skillgame is a bit nonsense. It is a game of chance that you can influence a little with your skill.

LMFAO Just read this outloud to my girlfriend, she goes "Does he mean blackjack?" - Shes never played poker for money.

>>803592
Guess what, you'll get more variance calling a tight player's all in with AK than calling some crazy dumbass with AJ

because the tight player probably has queens, and the dumbass has A5

IT DOES NOT HELP YOU TO KNOW THE TIGHT PLAYER HAS QUEENS OR AK

yes, he's predictable and much more predictable than the crazy guy, but are you going to fold for 70 more big blinds? Probably not

>>803511
>To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason. Even some lumberjack who never plays cards can get final tables in WSOP events. To say its a skillgame is a bit nonsense. It is a game of chance that you can influence a little with your skill.

You are a first class idiot. I live in Las Vegas and love to have people like you sitting at the table. You go downtown and play at the Golden Nugget or Binion's, you are going to run into a whole bunch of locals who've probaly forgotten more than you'll ever know about poker. You wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in a red hot oven against those characters no matter what you believe.

>>803974
>you'll get more variance playing against someone that's tight
>because he has queens

Since he'll be playing far less hands, his play generated almost no variance.

>>804271
He also generated zero profit for you, while the idiot for all of his variance let you be a dominating favorite when you called his all-in with TT and he had 55

Isn't poker all about getting it in good? Sure, you can "bluff" the tight guy when you raise K2s on the button and he folds K4o on the big blind (so technically you made him fold a dominating favorite), but then you're winning one big blind with that hand.

How the fuck do you call that profitable compared to a monkey who goes all in with almost any hand? You want to win one big blind or someone's whole stack?

>>803511

>To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason.

You go tell that to the judge that ruled otherwise in my country.

>>803511
>To say poker is a skill game is obviously untrue, it is considered by all legal authorities a game of chance for a reason. Even some lumberjack who never plays cards can get final tables in WSOP events. To say its a skillgame is a bit nonsense. It is a game of chance that you can influence a little with your skill.

Authorities also considered slavery and the Holocaust to be legal. But don't let the truth distract you from what the authorities say.

dumb question time

has pokerstars banned us residents, us citizens, or both?

Where is the best place to play as a us citizen in the uk, both on and offline.

>>804299
he actually generates a steady profit per orbit, which I'll be happy to take.

One bb per hand would be an extremely high win rate, btw.

>>804514
he only generates the 1bb per hand when he is the big blind, 0.5bb per hand when he's the small blind and he actually takes money from the table from other positions, so at BEST it's 1.5 bb PER ORBIT, not per hand and he'll have good hands in the blinds as well

However, the retard that's going all in preflop every hand will give you 10bb per hand because you're putting in your stack being a 55%+ favorite (you have 55% equity in a total 200bb pot, that means you have 110bb equity and you put in 100bb so your profit is 10bb)

This is every time you ship with a hand that is slightly better than break-even against a random hand

Attached is a sample of my positional stats from a while ago. As you can see, I don't make even 1bb per hand and I lose in the blinds. That's very normal for online play.

But when I have a retard at my table that ships any two every hand, that's 10bb per hand, and my calling range is say:

44+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J9s+,A3o+,K7o+,Q9o+,JTo

when I don't close action which is 61% equity, but sometimes worse because I run into a big hand by another player behind me (which reduces my EV, so we'll call it 10bb per hand instead of 20bb per hand)

that's still more than 31% of hands, that is, if nobody has called the retard going all in yet and it folds around to me, I'm making 10bb 20% of the time that he goes all in (some of the time someone else will call and I have to fold my hand)

that's 2bb per hand, a number that's better than anything you can earn from a nit

>>804564
yes, im talking about two different situations, noted by the spacing of the lines. if one can defend their blind, and take a big blind per orbit, then they'll be in good shape. considering that you can get about three to five orbits live, just from the guy in the big blind, you're making 3-5 blinds JUST FROM THAT per hour. now, imagine if you're playing 5/10, that's 30-50 an hour JUST FROM THAT.

but lets say you were heads up and you could get a nit to fold 75% of the time preflop. would you rather take the stable, easy money there or would you rather try to get a big win, risking a big loss with a loose aggressive player?

Not only that, you're not accounting for the fact that you're folding 45% of the time, which hurts your win rate that you have calculated.

>not realizing you can ship with 33% equity in a number of situations, which is seemingly a losing play, but actually isn't taking into context certain maths

Nor am i saying it's not at all profitable to play against someone who's shipping every hand, what im saying, and have been saying, is that you're variance is going to go through the fucking roof. you will be experiencing a lot more all ins. it increases your risk of ruin

You CAN'T defend your blind, you're going to end up folding it at least 70% of the time because your hand sucks or the guy who raised probably has something

At the same time, the nit is NOT going to fold every hand.

Your stats vs. nits will end up looking like what I posted. You're going to be grinding out 0.1bb/100 hands or 0.3bb/hr or $30 an hour playing 5/10

or you know, you could get it in with KTo vs. J7o and have 64.5% equity in a $1000 pot:

win $1000 64.5% of the time = $645
lose $1000 35.5% of the time = -$355

profit from that hand: $290 and you're going to be able to go all in maybe 10% of the time against a guy who ships every hand

That's $29 per HAND as in $870 an hour
if you don't want to take the variance to make $870 per hour you're fucking retarded and you should quit poker

>>804700
>not defending your blinds
WOW...
>only getting .1bb/100 hands from nits after making them fold many blinds for several orbits and getting them to fold to cbets

Or, you could lose 100 ships in a row. You're going to have a risk of ruin of about 45%. Which one do you want?

>>804716
You're going to defend your blind, but you're still going to lose money from it or at best break-even unless you're at a table with a spewtard that goes all in every hand.

I play with correct bankroll management so losing 10 ships in a row doesn't affect me

losing 10 ships in a row is a 0.1% probably if it's a flip

if it's a 60-40 it's going to happen only 0.01% of the time

losing 100 ships in a row is LOL, if you're afraid of that you should quit poker

>>804748
>correct bankroll management
>loses 100, not 10, ships in a row
>doesn't affect me

>every ship is a flip

If you were concerned about correct bankroll management, you'd realize you need to aim to be under a certain % for risk of ruin.

However, you could still lose 60 out of 100, or still lose 50 and only win 50. Then again, you're not taking into account the rake. For every 100 dollars you take down, you're paying 10 dollars. This is the standard rake right now online and for home games.

>>804755
You actually don't care about risk of ruin because you wouldn't keep playing at the same stake when you get down to your last buy-in

you'd drop down to a lower game when you lost half of your bankroll, so you only care about risk of "half ruin" which is not too bad

You also forgot about the blinds
if you pay $5 drop (who the fuck pays $10 drop? lol) at 5/10, there's also $15 in the pot already from the blinds, so if you raise, guy ships all in ATC, the blinds fold, you pay a $5 drop, but the blinds are $15 so you're actually paying $1000 to win a $2010 pot

if he's the big blind, however, it's a wash ($2000 pot for $1000) and if you're SB you're going to lose the drop ($1995 pot for $1000)

losing at least 60 hands out of 100 when you have 60% equity is going to happen is 0.00244%

that's the equivalent of someone hitting perfect perfect runner runner TWICE in a row against you

if you feel the need to protect against that possibility you shouldn't be playing poker

>>804782
the lowest live stakes are either 1/2 or 1/3
you can't move down like you can online if you're just starting out.

what i mean by the RAKE is that your winrate is actually different than what you calculate it to be. if you're playing online, you're paying 10 bucks for every 100 in the pot. The 10% rake is STANDARD online, if not cheap.

im not sure where you get .00244% from, regardless, the higher SD play style you have, the more likely you are to ruin your roll.

>>805218
>>804782

Hate to break it to you two guys, but maybe Ill make you friends through a common enemy. Ive been watching you two bicker for practically a whole week now, throughout which you have both stated absolute facts, as well as complete bullshit. But the bulk of what you argue about is opinion, as if they were facts. Is it so hard to accept that you both have at least a decent understanding of poker theory, and have different *play styles*? Those exist you know? There is not a perfect way to play poker. That is why it fuckin exists. You're both pulling completely random shit out of no where sometimes... But obviously, at this point all you guys wanna do is shit on one another. Get a room :) Or realize theres better things to do with what appears to be 90% of your free time. My 2 cents. Im prepared for the oncoming rage. Bring it.

>>805237
Nope nope nope

It is FACT that it's more profitable to play against people who go all in every hand compared to tight players

I've shown the math, it's an order of magnitude better

>>805218
10% is not standard rake online, standard rake it 5% capped to $3 full ring, $2 when 2-5 people, $0.50 when heads up

So in 100NL you're only paying $3 rake per all in hand, and after $60 the rake doesn't increase

>>805383
And in reality it's best to play against loose semi maniacs who really don't know what they are doing. Someone going all in on every hand is going to be damn rare in a tournament and even rarer in a live game. Most i've ever seen it done was four times in a row before the steaming idiot got waxed.

>>805430
I had a guy just the other night that would go all in every hand WITHOUT LOOKING AT HIS CARDS for $100 in 1/2/3 and $200 if he won

in fact, once when he went all in, his cards got accidentally mucked because he never once looked at them and they had to call the floor which ruled he can get his bet back because the dealer made a mistake

he dropped over a grand in an hour, and me and my friend made more than a buy-in during this time

I would like to make some money on the side, maybe $200 a month or so. Is it really difficult? I played poker a bit, I'm coming back and I'm going to read books and study a lot, but I want to know if it takes a lot of time to be making $150~250 a month with this.

>>805237
there's a perfect way to play limit, and it exists...

>>805383
In the last 1500 hands, I have paid five buy ins in rake. That's fucking ridiculous.

>>805437

You have to realize this is a high variance play. It may be profitable, but it's also highly variable. It's like riding a roller coaster.

>>805383
>Nope nope nope
>It is FACT...
Lawl, *facepalm*. Never argued that. Freaking radical fanatics.

>>805544
>there's a perfect way to play limit, and it exists...
Lawl, *facepalm*. Never argued that. Freaking radical fanatics.


Have fun you two love birds. Ill continue watching the silly chat.

>>805680
>>805237
>There is not a perfect way to play poker. That is why it fuckin exists.

You imply that limit hold em shouldn't exist because there's already a solved way to play the game. There IS a perfect way to play HE, and we are making the AI right now that will achieve that. In about five years, online poker will be completely dead because of it.

That's poker

>>805872

>if you didnt all-in preflop then you might be the moron here

>>805880
obviously we all in-ed pre-flop.

>>805866
>You IMPLY...
Try less ASSUMING and more reading. I never argued with you. Freaking fanatics just wanna argue and say what they wanna say. You two are just ridiculous. Ironically, apparently sticking to logic and reason instead of EXTREMELY BROAD assumptions is too hard for poker players.

I mean jesus... You just want to argue. You literally both just sit here to scream you're right, without even attempting to consider the opposite point of view, even when people ARE NOT arguing with you. I have not debated on any of the topics that either of you have been talking about since Wednesday because I realized the whole conversation was getting a little stubborn.

>>805883
well the sixes aren't actually a bad play considering the context of the players

>>806065
Try less implying and more being right.

>>806081
Cuz "Poker" == "Limit" *facepalm*
Im not getting drawn into this. God damn the wasted brainz. Have fun you two love birds, you'll keep entertaining each other day after day Im sure. *backs away slowly* Im out.

>>806085
You should be concise with what you mean with "poker == limit".

>>806087

>>806088

>>806091
Fucking epic choice in gif.

>>805457
To make that amount per month shouldn't be difficult at all provided you don't do anything stupid. ABC poker and your goal is reached.

>>806838
ABC poker is still hard to play properly. It still blows my mind how much more nitty 6max online is than FR live. I doubt the average winner at the lowest FR game (1/2 or 1/3) can beat 5NL online right now.

>>807725
>ABC poker is still hard to play properly.

Its not hard it is really easy and exploitable by good players, but half the time you are playing ABC its against fish anyways. The problem is online that its extremely hard to grind using ABC unless you're grinding the micros.

>>807845
It's hard because you still have to decide whether to call some guy's all-in. Even fish get flushes and straights.

It's also difficult to decide whether to vbet certain hands because you sometimes end up valuetowning yourself. Even if you're betting into a fish, there's no guarantee that TPGK is good, he could have better and just be calling you.

There is still a lot of subtlety to ABC play and a lot of difficult decisions almost every session. Especially against other ABC players because YOU KNOW they have a nutted hand, you just need to decide the chance that your hand is good... can we give him credit for a flopped flush and fold a set? etc.

LAG 4 LYFE

>>807888
>Even fish get flushes and straights.
Fish rarely value bet big without having a big hand so this is easy.

>It's also difficult to decide whether to vbet certain hands because you sometimes end up valuetowning yourself.
Not all valuebets are successful, but as long as you're ahead of his calling range enough of the time to make it +EV you're fine.

>Especially against other ABC players because
Stay away from other regs unless they have a leak that you can exploit.

>>808029
>Fish rarely value bet big without having a big hand so this is easy.

Not all fish, some fish like to gamble and bet with hands and without hands.

>Stay away from other regs unless they have a leak that you can exploit.
So you just check/fold when you flop a set against a tight player? Lol?

>>808035
>>808035
>Not all fish, some fish like to gamble and bet with hands and without hands.
If he's doing both in an unpredictable manner he's a lag not a fish

>So you just check/fold when you flop a set against a tight player? Lol?
Flopped sets are the easiest hand i hold em lol. I'm saying in general you should have more reasons to not get involved with other TAGs than you should have reasons to get involved with them.

>>808052
some lags are fish

>Flopped sets are the easiest hand i hold em lol

really? So if you bet and get called, the turn completes a flush draw what do you do? Do you bet the turn too so the fourth flush card doesn't come? What if the TAG raises you, do we fold or do we try to peel for the boat? Are we ever good if raised? Is he raising us with a single ace of the suit?

>>808055
Unless our villain is never bluffing im nearly always getting my stack in with a set assuming the spr is less than 16. Assuming Im pfr if the flop is wet im potting it looking to gii if villain reraises and nearly always betting a turn if the flush comes unless it completes another draw like a straight or something.

>>807725
>6max
>nitty

Where do you play?

>trying to beat people pulling levers

>>808066
wouldn't you want an spr of like... 4 or less? you're playing like if you had pocket aces, and you certainly don't want to be playing in the realm where draws are actually the most profitable.

>>808394
Bovada, because I'm from the US

I tried some 10NL yesterday (I usually play 1/2/3 live) and lots of people were folding to 3bs

I had JJ in the BB. BU with a full stack raises to 3bb. I 3b to 10bb, he 4bs to 25bb, I ship and he folds immediately because he was bluffing. That's 10NL, lol

>>808394
>wouldn't you want an spr of like... 4 or less? you're playing like if you had pocket aces, and you certainly don't want to be playing in the realm where draws are actually the most profitable.

You have a set. An SPR of 16 or less is very profitable to gii with sets. If you're a bit nitty you could lower the spr to 12 or so, but unless the spr is insanely high Im nearly always going to gii with a set.

>>808455
Folding too much to 3bets is the biggest leak players have in the micros and when they do decide to adjust its usually terrible because they'll just call with marginal hands in 3b pots from oop.

You can do well with ABC at certain times and places but sometimes you have to get a bit slick. In the posts above there seems to be giving LAGs too much credit. From my experience, a lot of LAGs really don't know much of anything else. They see those insane plays on TV and apply them to cash games. Hell, feed them the blinds and an occasional raise, they'll walk into a minefield sooner or later and you can break them right down to their last dollar.

>>808485
i think i see the problem
preflop, id like an spr to setmine with of about 13-15
but with a set on the flop, i'd rather it be 4 or less, that way, it's a lot easier to get maximum value

>>808618
on the flop I want the SPR to be 0.1 so I can get maximum value

Does anyone know what the "best" site for online poker is?

>>798504
This guy is saying the truth and this is why no one will listen to him