/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>8011985

>UBI
>totally not communism guys

meet the new boss, same as the old boss

>>8011985

UBI is better than welfare but it still has no place in a market economy.

>>8011985
if money is free money is worthnless

An eventuality while we wait for AI to take over. It's really a shit plan, but there's no better option (if we must be humane about it) from when all the minimum wage workers start losing their jobs to us achieving full automation. It's going to be rough no matter what.

>>8011985
An impractical meme. You know how Walmart benefits from welfare indirectly because many of their employees are on the dole to some extent? Now imagine how it is going to be when all businesses only pay supplemental income, meaning that you as a taxpayer are literally paying two-thirds of a Walmart greeter's income. It's the ultimate corporate bailout because it creates an entire class of people that serve no purpose except to consume and possibly earn a slight bonus if they choose to work 10 hours a week to afford a little extra booze. It's the ultimate corporate welfare check.

I don't see almost every job replaced by AI yet, so there's no need for communism. Even if AI takes your shitty job at a factory or at McDonald's you should just move to entertainment industry or some other industry not taken by robots. Cars took jobs related to horses? start selling car parts, it's that simple.

>>8011985
The picture is dumb
Morelike:
>Work hard; make money
>No work; stay at the bottom of society and eat ramen noodles only for the rest of your life unless you work
With the amount of lamboposting on here it's clear to me that people would likely continue to work merely to oneup eachother lol

Just watch carefuly if those calling for UBI now are tax evading billionares who will later run for president.

>>8012035
The proles gotta have money to buy shit so Mr sheckelberg can make $. It's either UBI or plague and famine baby.

>>8011985
It's 100% better than welfare
It actually rewards people for giving back

>>8012035
>better than welfare
>give everyone welfare
>now workers get paid more, cause money got devalued due to everyone getting welfare.

>>8012155
>It's either UBI or plague and famine baby.
Daily reminder: no one starved to death during the great depression
>>8012168
It creates a false sense of self-worth.

>>8011985

I support UBI so long as we scrap the welfare system we have now (with a special exemption maybe for healthcare). No food stamps or what the fuck ever, here's some cash, spend it on what you want, but it's all you get.

>dude just print more money and give it to people then there will be no poor people

>>8012116
The idea is that, once AI takes enough jobs and people are insofar too dumb to do better jobs or a large swath of the people displaced need to be retrained to do better jobs, a UBI would be needed as a bare minimum to make sure jimbob and Tyrone don't riot or become bums before they can be put to work in some thing other than their automated burger flipping job (from which they saved $0 btw)

>>8012210
Food stamps are a tiny percentage of total welfare spending, and arguably some of the best spending. Most welfare right now goes only to the elderly. Try applying that to every citizen and you'll make Obama's budget like like Calvin Coolidge's.

>>8011985
UBI is a trap that lures poor people into a sense of complacency before they get culled.

>>8012219
I'd rather the printed money go to the poor than the rich. At least if the poor have more money, it's easier to have a small consumer oriented business.

>>8011985
Cut all welfare. Give people the money directly, leaving the safety net and reducing government overhead. UBI or a similar system is inevitable with automation.

>>8011985
why not just have no income tax instead?

>>8012205
It doesn't matter what kind of psychological thing you think it creates it's still going to 100% be a thing in the future, wanna know why?

Automation.

>>8012264
nope. read more

>>8012235
First, there's no evidence that AI/automation is going to take over the job market. People have been predicting that for centuries and every time they're proven laughably wrong. Secondly, UBI has been proposed long before recent AI fears, it's unrelated. Third, that large swath of poor people will only get larger when those perma-poor UBI leeches have more and more babies.
>>8012248
Whose services do you think will be purchased with that money? That's right, the rich.

>>8012219
No the idea is that there will still be poor people but the rich will pay them just enough to stop rioting. It’s a way to preserve capitalism by stopping a communist revilution.

>>8012248
Putting it another way:

>print money. Give it to rich. Housing and other real assets are expensive as fuck.

>print money. Give it to poor. Anyone with half a brain can make money off it and live a decnet life.

UBI is just quantative easing for everyone, not just the bankers.

>>8012304
Retarded meme. Americans and British didn't riot on any large scale through the worst of the robber baron and Great Depression eras, why would they riot now?

>>8012330
Print money: hyperinflation

Quantitative easing works to some extent because the money doesn't get printed directly into the economy, it gets put into complex economic mechanisms and systems like the stock market which tend to sit rather than flow.

>>8012121
UBI is not welfare. Canada is expected to set it to 15k per person. 30 for a family of two plus child benefits. No tax. That is just 7k shy of a 55k job after tax. Meaning you get 7k for 37.5h a week for a year. That is a wage of 3.59CAD per hour or 2.8 real dollars. Not taking into consideration the inflation that will hit any nation implementing UBI. It is the same argument as increasing the minimum wage. People who advocate UBI don't understand that its not the nunbera that count but the value of the currency and the productive power of the nation.

>>8012340
Great Depression caused a large number of government welfare and employment programs to be started for this exact reason.

>>8012264
Cut all taxes. Give people the money they earned. Those who do not work, do not eat.

>>8012375
Not for that exact reason, no. Name me these attempted communist revolutions that were in play in America in the 1930s. Protip: they didn't exist. FDR created those programs because America has a democratic system where bad economies get you kicked out on your ass, and where free gibs means more happy voters.

>>8012340
shitskins and niggers will riot, as usual

>>8012394
This works for only a little while before madame guillotine comes out.

>>8012413
Shitskins and niggers only riot over racial reasons. If your claim was universally true, we would have seen continuous rioting in the South throughout the entire reconstruction period
>>8012434
Historically wrong

>>8012293
Yep. This will only work once robots take all our jobs and make our unemployment rate 50%+

Until we reach that point, we can't afford to just give people money.

>>8012408
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communists_in_the_United_States_Labor_Movement_(1919–37)

>>8012304
>No the idea is that there will still be poor people but the rich will pay them just enough to stop rioting

thats literally what we have now. then on top of that you want to tax the fuck out of working people or indirectly tax them via inflation and give MORE gibs to people

absolutely ridiculous. you may as well just be a commie

The first thing I'll do with my UBI money is build a bunker and stockpile food for when everything goes to shit a year or two later. Communism should be added to the DSM-5 as a severe mental disability.

>>8011985

Free gibs? Probably won't work, but who knows? Sign up to this crowd to get a head start OP: https://www.swiftdemand.com/?referred_by=viadata

>pic related
thats where ubi will lead us

>>8012085
>minimum wage workers

You mean skilled white collar workers? That's who is going to be replace first. It's easier to write a script to replace an office drone than a robot to replace a labourer.

>>8012394

How do you propose to fund the government? At the very least you'll need a police force and military.

>>8012476
Yeah, and nobody cared about them. Even Pro-Nazi movements were more powerful in America in the 30s.

if you're on UBI you can't have children

There's no other way

>>8012296
>People have been predicting that for centuries

Oh yeah, in Ye Olde Times they TOTALLY thought the Singularity was near.

>>8012296
You think that because there is no evidence of AI taking over the job market, there will not be any
However it's obvious that AI had not taken over yet because it is not yet hardly advanced enough
AI is still much dumber and less broad than even the dumb humans, but if it gets better, it or even just quicker, it will surpass them
Any

As you mentioned, fear of automation has been proven wrong in the past, but with AI we are not building better arms, legs, fingers, hands, muscles, or any other thing dumber than us that does the job better; instead we will be building better MINDS

I agree that UBI is somewhat unrelated, but I think it may be the best solution since jobs won't all become extinct at once and we'll need something to do before we have to figure out what to do when abundance hits

Lastly, there are widescale experiments being undergone right now in a few cities across the world and so far the outcomes are showing that people don't just become lazy with a basic income, but we'll have to see what happens.

Also, people often say hur dur piple would be 2 lazy if they got free money
But this then begs the question, would you?

had it since 2016 broo

>>8012531
Nobody cared because voters were placated by government programs. That’s the whole point.

Not very subtle push for communism. Either it quickly becomes an irrelevant amount of money or the definition of "live decently" gets expanded to where the system crashes from a McMansion being a basic entitlement. There's no way it stops at being able to afford rent for a shoe box and lentils, especially once the DAS RAYCIS chants start flying.

>>8012502
I watched this entire movie without sound once because I was next to a guy on a plane watching it. I got the gist of it

>>8011985

Here ya go OP: An Ethereum DAO for providing UBI:
https://github.com/swiftdemand/swiftprotocol

They also provide an in-app store for trading good & services.

https://www.swiftdemand.com/?referred_by=viadata

>>8012543
>the Singularity
Go back to your favorite Black Science Man plebbit board
>>8012544
Sure, if we want to talk really long-term, it's possible that automation and AI remove the need for employment. It's just as possible that energy will be cheap enough that the entire economy will move into a kind of future-agrarian lifestyle, where individuals can produce and sell their own goods without depending on businesses to keep them employed. It's not something really worth talking about in the context of UBI though.
>>8012573
So explain the decades of recessions that existed between the Civil War and Great Depression, and why there was still no meaningful threat of class rioting then either

>>8012363
I get this, but it remains to be seen what a UBI would really do, unlike muh socialism wuld work guize, it had not been tested for real
Also I do believe there should be a cutoff point, or possibly a gradient, but still
>Daily reminder that Milton Friedman called for a negative income tax

>>8011985
pic related manages to get UBI 100% wrong. The problem with traditional welfare is that it discourages people from working -- you only get welfare if you don't work or work part time on a low wage. The entire point of UBI is that you it's UNIVERSAL - you get it if you work, you get it if you don't, but it's not like traditional welfare because no one can say "Oh, better not take those extra hours or I'll lose my UBI."

>>8012248
You have no idea how anything works.

It's simple. Have all industry run on automated robots and blockchain. Have everyone have a share of the tokens that run the block chain.

Everyone now own a piece of what makes modern life possible.

>>8012363
Canada is doing it the most retarded way as guaranteed minimum income not UBI. If you start adding conditions to it you start losing a lot of benefits that UBI would have, like reduced administration costs, less enforcement, etc.

>>8012629
Yeh its no district 9 but its ok I guess

>>8011985
We’ve had basic income since the 70ies really. With wage stagnation the only way to make money was through inheritance or investments.

>>8012526
You think the gov runs on actual money... what is the debt at... plz nig the gov does not need your peasant shekles

>>8012516
Haha what?

>>8011985

Folks in the US will hate it. Right until everyone outside of the major urban centers in PA, OH, WV & KY (aka a whole bunch of white people) are essentially unemployable.

Then, people will love it.

>>8012516
>>8012085
it's already happening numbnuts. ever since the cotton gin, technology has been replacing labor of all kinds.

Welfare is shit no matter how you call it.

>>8012544
Excuse me but why would anyone invest in the extremely expensive robotisation process if entry-level salaries drop to indonesia-tier level in the first place.

>>8011985
Retarded commie bullshit that is perpetuated by people that have no vision, drive or capacity to pull themselves out of their surroundings

>>8013282
Those workers in auto industry weren't minimum wage in the first place and this kind of robots require so much people for maintainance and calibration you wouldn't believe.

>>8012280
nigger don't want to work, anon

>>8012235
Why can't you just arrest them? Or let them die of starvation? In my country, you work or you die. And no one's dying cause when you're hungry and the cops will shoot you if you steal shit, you find yourself a job.

>>8012280
No income tax, no company yax and every state expense funded by VAT is a decent program.

>You can prove that it's impossible with a simple napkin calculation
>It's literally communism

Yeah, great idea OP.

What does the world look like when robots and AI replace all jobs? What do people do when they've made themselves obsolete? What does the economy look like when it's impossible to circulate the wealth because you've collected it all? What does the end-game of Monopoly look like?

helicopter cash that doesn't work because the value of money comes from work, not free shit given by daddy government, and arguing on the neolib keynesian economics side where "much low income earners will spend more!!!1" falls flat when inflation comes in to effect from the redistribution.

It's just a retarded concept that will never work as long as people are still working.

>>8012296
>First, there's no evidence that AI/automation is going to take over the job market.

Every single patch or update for major software adds features to streamline the process making it so fewer and fewer people are needed for the same job. Its fucking insane to say this is not a vector of technological growth that will continue until one person can left click 9 hour long randomly generated lord of the rings full motion video in full 3d virtual reality.

Keep pretending though, its fun seeing people who think technology is a static thing that never improves.

>>8013925
>What do people do when they've made themselves obsolete?

Transhumanism will be one logical step. So will bio enginering. The AIs wont be the only thing that grows exponentially.

>>8013925
When all of the jobs get automated, we'll invent more jobs.

I can't think of a single job which still operates in the same way as before the industrial revolution, and there are millions of new jobs which nobody had thought of before.

>>8011985
I support it. I get orgasmic at the thought of the majority of people removing themselves from the wealth making competition. Imagine how much easier it'd be to become rich.

>>8013927
>will never work as long as people are still working.
But what about when there's no longer a need for anyone to work

>>8013934
Yet technology creates job too. It's a fucking pipedream to believe everything will be automated because someone says it's technologically possible to automate every job existing today.

We've had the tech to automate all the clothes industry for decade yet your clothes are still made by humans, why that ?

Capitalists giving free money to prols because prols don't have money to buy shit from capitalists. Kinda funny desu

>>8013990
That won't happen any time soon, certainly not in the next 40 years. Unemployment, counterintuitively is at an all time low right now in USA although I would probably check labor force participation rate too.

>>8013981
The problem is that eventually any AI or machine will be more efficient at doing any job than a human as they become better than us at everything. So while I'm sure there will be a need for new jobs, those will be filled by machines too

I imagine a dystopian future where everyone's on Youtube and you're paid a weekly stipend based on how many views you get. When there's nothing left to do, the only thing we can do is entertain each other. If we're lucky nuclear holocaust will wipe out 90% of the planet and we can start over, delaying it for a century or two

>>8011999
fbpb
and witnessed!

>>8014043
>more efficient
In a world of rare mineral resources I'd say you are fucking preposterous there. Robots are very expensive and as they become more complex it isn't getting cheaper.

>>8014090

A neccessity unless the elites plan on culling the masses. Most jobs are going to be eliminated in the coming decades, and not just white collar jobs. There are very few jobs that are actually safe from automation.

>>8013992
>Yet technology creates job too.

That's a myth, the only time technology creates jobs is in very specific situations. Advancement of technology is a constant erotion of jobs.

Think about it like a bear market. You still get upwards spikes from time to time but overall you are in a down trend. Thats how technology works. And the more advanced the technology the bigger the dips and the smaller the spikes.

So like the steam engine was huge and created a boom on jobs. But robots and AI are nothing short of job carnage. An infinite dip into no jobs at all.

>>8014117

>>8014120
>But robots and AI are nothing short of job carnage
You've never stepped in an "automated" or "robotised" factory, did you ? In fact you've probably never worked a day in your life in production, IMO.

>>8014043
AI (really just machine learning) right now is very limited to operating in a single problem domain which means that there are very limited use cases for it right now. I'm sure in the future we'd have some great generic machine learning algorithms and industry specific implementations on top of them but I don't see that so much as job killing any time soon -- certainly like how computers and the internet were supposed to end up killing all jobs. People always find a way to adapt to the job industry, create new jobs based on market scarcity and demand.

i would like some free money since all the criminals and lazy fucks get it

anything that devalues welfare is A1 to me senpai

>>8013934
no, you dumb mongoloid luddite, nobody here thinks that technology is static, although youre a retard who thinks that job market is static and doesnt move.
the jobs that will be replaced by ai and robots will vanish, but new jobs will be created, other existing jobs will expand, etc.
in the early 20th century there were thousands of machinists per factory. in the mid-late 20th century there were hundreds. now theres a couple of guys doing cam work and dozen guys looking over cnc machines. total production went through the roof, total population went through the roof and people still have jobs.

>>8014168
Right now I am utilizing technology to do things that used to require a team of maybe 20 people to accomplish and I am doing it completely on my own. This is not possible 20 years ago. And its only going to continue to get easier for me.

Also, there is no need to get into anecdotal arguments to prove what I am saying. One only needs to look at say, photoshop from the 1990s vs photoshop today. Are you going to make the argument that its not faster and more efficient to work with current day photoshop vs the mid 1990s photoshop?

What about smart contracts replacing banks? Is this just imaginary? What new jobs will be created with smart contracts in mind? You would be foolish to argue that the jobs created would be greater than jobs lost.

Technology is constantly improving so you can do more and more with fewer and fewer people.

>>8014239
Ok give me an example of automation increasing the number of people needed to do the same job?

I am waiting. This will be awesome. Mainly because its trick question but I want hear something concrete from you.

>>8014274
As you want my dude. Right now I'm in the train going to a "fully automated" state of the art fab that still employs 5000 people because, guess what, automation requires maintainance and people to fix its mistakes, design engineers to create the products, researchers to look for new tech, security, and so on.

>>8014319
How many workers in the electronic industry in 1950, how many workers today ?

>>8014353
The problem is, you keep forgetting to mention that its less total people needed. Every time a piece of software is patched you can do the same thing 30 seconds faster. Every time someone advances one aspect of the field less maintenance is needed productivity continues to climb.

> How many workers in the electronic industry in 1950, how many workers today ?

Like I said, the steam engine caused a boom in jobs as well. But as technology continues to get better the number of people needed to do the same thing goes down. You can do the same thing today using those electronics that would have required far more people in the 1950s.

I actually think the people who argue that AI and robots will create more jobs are actually in complete denial. Its a mental disorder to assume these machines wont reduce the total number of humans needed to do the same job.

Want to know why? Because it would be pointless otherwise. Humans are expensive, the fewer humans the more profits you can keep for yourself. Automation would not exist in the first place if it was not for this very fact.

>>8012219
You don't print more money, dumb ass. The money for UBI already exists in welfare and the money used to fund all the government jobs associated with maintaining welfare.

>>8014437
>Humans are expensive
>t. I've never worked in production
Humans are cheap as fuck. Robots increase product reliability and conformity but are expensive as shit. That's why companies outsource cheap and bad quality production rather than robotize it.

long term inflation still needs to be tested in tandem. unfortunately we haven't figured out how to deal with the human emotion of greed yet. UBI is needed with the way we are headed, jobs will not be coming back folks sorry.

>>8011985
Get this commie shit out of my face.

>>8011999
This, also checked.

>>8014493
>Humans are cheap as fuck. Robots increase product reliability and conformity but are expensive as shit. That's why companies outsource cheap and bad quality production rather than robotize it.

Moore's Law says hello

Actually on that note this is another thing that pisses me off about this entire "discussion" is fucking dumbasses who think "robot" means C3PO from fucking Star Wars is needed on an assembly line to do the same shit a person does.

The required solutions to replace humans is not a god damn bipedal sentient fucking AI. Half the time an arm does the job just fine. I think this is one of the reasons people like you always go off on these "its bullshit" tangents. Its because you dont understand how problem solving actually works. You end up like fucking Bill Gates who thinks "Robots should pay taxes" HAHAHA

>>8014576
Fast food workers can easily be replaced with large touch screens in most cases. You can automate most fast food preparation to one person per building. It would be easy to do.

>>8012248
>At least if the poor have more money, it's easier to have a small consumer oriented business.

Why would this happen at all?

>machine learning(really just parameter search)
no it's magic!

>>8014576
>Moore's Law says hello
Moore's law has been obsolete since before the first i7 arrived on the market, we are not able to double the frequecy and divise the patterning size by two every two years anymore.

>Half the time an arm does the job just fine
That's true if you want your assembly line needs no flexibility in what it produces whatsoever. But then there's a shitload of jobs you can't automate, ie everything that isnt consumer-scale production.

I already told you, I can see the unbridled idealism of someone who never worked in production leaking from my screen.

>>8014616
>You can automate most fast food preparation to one person per building. It would be easy to do.
Why did nobody do it ? There is sure large companies that would love reducing their manpower costs by having a bunch of automated grills. Could it be because it's expensive as fuck ?

>>8012362
Fuck off, QE isn't any better than blowing all that money at the titty bar. It's free money in the hands of individuals who acquire assets from friends so they can continue to control the entire fucking economy. This is not how the free market works at fucking all. It's also why many of us are here.

>>8014616
I went to a jack in the box in san diego california in 2008 that had a set of kiosks which completely replaced the front counter staff.
10 years later I haven't seen a single one anywhere. Also I hear from a relative that they removed the kiosks years ago.

>>8014319
fucking easy, brainlet:
massage parlors. in early 20th century only the richest of the rich could get a real thai massage, because there were barely any massage parlors and barely anyone who could give you a good massage. now you can get a decent massage for 20 bucks.

>>8014695
> Why did nobody do it ?

Same argument with self driving trucks. The upfront cost is higher for now. Its better to slowly phase into a paradigm like this. Fast food is already doing this. There actually are already many places that automated most jobs. The trend is only getting started.

> I already told you, I can see the unbridled idealism of someone who never worked in production leaking from my screen.

Cognitive dissonance is the name of the game here and you are suffering greatly from it. To really sum this entire argument up is that you refuse to accept the simple fact.

Technology makes things faster, cheaper and easier. Does this trigger you? Because I think it does.

There are people who accept that as technology gets better it requires fewer people to do the same thing. And then there are people who are in fucking denial and are unable to comprehend the entire topic.

>>8014493
>Humans are cheap as fuck
Also stupid as fuck and can't work 24 hours.
I used to do some IT work at a little ( less than 100 employees, no sales or ) manufacturing plant belonging to one of the Fortune 500 company and I have to say 98% of personnel could easily be replaced by robots and smart contracts when technology becomes mature enough and more importantly cheap enough. You just gonna need a couple of contract technicians to fix stuff and 1 CTO and that's it.
Blue collar jobs are absolutely fucked, white collars will also take a hit, but jobs requiring human interaction and creativity are mostly safe until true AI.

>>8012280
>why not just have no income tax instead?

0 X 0 still equals 0

>>8014791
>Technology makes things faster, cheaper and easier
irrelevant statement. What you're asserting is basically a forecast for the development of specific technologies. Anyone who isn't new to the world knows people are terrible at predicting for any new technology.
also GREAT spacing.

>>8014791
I work in technology. I develop new technologies for chips, ASICs, CPUs and future quantum processors. The research center I work in is leading the tech in machine learning to the point it has partnerships with multiple car manufacturers or silicon valley giants to work on AI. Yet I can fucking assure you its way more likely than society will stop endorsing shit like minimum wage and welfare and put the western working class in a foxconn worker-tier situation than having every little production automated.

>>8012673
This would just devalue the currency. If UBI is $2000 a month, then $2000 becomes not worth a whole lot in a short amount of time. Also the amount is something someone else decides for you and all the failures of central planning that come with it.

>>8014909
>also GREAT spacing.

Personal attack! Also you took a general truth about technology as a whole in a discussion about technological advancement and claimed general truths about technology is irrelevant.

Good stuff man.

>>8014493
Robots are getting cheaper. Manufacturing coming back to the US isn't going to mean what people think it means.

>>8014954
>cheese is great
>let me tell you what will be the most popular cheese next winter
>let me also tell you how much it will cost per pound in Quebec
you're not even a cheese expert fucktard

>>8012296
>First, there's no evidence that AI/automation is going to take over the job market.

>>8014979
>Robots are getting cheaper
Not by much, and the more complex they are the more maintenance they require.

>>8014979
Also most of the jobs that are going to be automated in the next few years will be white collar office jobs. Those will get axed hard. Service way less, since customers still value human contact.

>>8014791
Better technology will only lead to more consumption. We're just speeding our ways towards our own destruction.

One example is LED lighting. Instead of reducing energy usage, it only led to more. It had the opposite of the intended effect.

>>8014142
Very cool, saved.

>>8014912
>I work in technology. I develop new technologies for chips, ASICs, CPUs and future quantum processors. The research center I work in is leading the tech in machine learning to the point it has partnerships with multiple car manufacturers or silicon valley giants to work on AI. Yet I can fucking assure you its way more likely than society will stop endorsing shit like minimum wage and welfare and put the western working class in a foxconn worker-tier situation than having every little production automated.

I don't personally see UBI happening simply because there is no point. The ones who need it wont be in a position of power to make it happen. A UBI can only happen through cryptocurrency in some way.

The only hurdle will be to figure out how to prevent 1 person from having multiple accounts. Solve that and we can setup a crypto UBI tomorrow. easier said than done.

>>8014695
it already happens in major cities

>>8011985
It will be a slaughter house bring it now.

>>8015132
do you mean a coin where liberals donate to a mass of poor people?
it exists already in the form of crowdsource services eg amazon, uber. People that cannot have jobs for whatever reason do menial work for less than minimum wage

>>8015149
Source on automated grills being implemented ?

>>8014695
>1950
>There is sure large companies that would love reducing their manpower costs by having a bunch of computers. Could it be because it's expensive as fuck ?
pioneers take the first hit

>>8015040
I've done both and I can tell you blue collar is under fire as well. Most tasks just require motor skills. Bots are very specialized now, but once they become a little more modular and adoptable they could easily find themselves in more production lines. I agree with you on white collar jobs as well.

Also lets not forget trucking. As of now the tech is there, its just a matter of deploying the infrastructure to make it compatible with society. People are afraid of autos because the lack of a human and the risk of death. So we may see auto only interstates, for shipping items at first. Or maybe FedEx and UPS will find away to use flying drones instead.

>>8014987
Is this like your wookie arguement? Lets break out the cheese arguement on this guy. His point about technology slowly reducing the number of people needed to do the same jobs over time is too salient.

CHEESE!!!! Fucking CHEESE YO!!! Its alright guys I got him. The cheese argument is at play. Deep learning Neural networks are useless as ordained by the cheese argument. its ok though, I posted a picture of a dude from Star Wars to back me up.

>>8014695
The technology that's commonplace tomorrow is the technology that already exists in high expense today. Look at your smart phone and think about all that it's capable of. Now try to remember how little you were able to do with your phone 15 years ago. The technology for smartphones didn't just magically appear overnight, it was just too expensive at the time to be commonplace for the masses.

>>8011985

Once the robots and A.I take over, it will be a necessity to keep the world from a dystopic hellhole

>>8015017
>Not by much, and the more complex they are the more maintenance they require.

sure, but you said "not by much" which means you understand that every year it will be a little cheaper. And a little cheaper. And a little cheaper.

After 5 stacks of "not by much" we might hit a paradigm shift.

>>8015176
No, in order to do a UBI that would be a no bullshit real deal crypto ubi you need a means to make sure every person is only allowed one account. Solve that and you are golden.

>>8015208
>The technology for smartphones didn't just magically appear overnight, it was just too expensive at the time to be commonplace for the masses.
Sorry to break your bubble but the time to market in the smartphone industry is 4 years. It's the shortest amongst every industry in the world, there was actually no "hidden tech" that was too expensive for the masses. Now tell me how robots will get cheaper.

>>8015232
And decreasing wages/cutting down work laws can be done faster and more efficiently.

>>8015214
>being at the total mercy of the government will keep the world from a dystopic hellhole
you're assuming the government isn't run by baby eating satanists

>>8015208
Most of the innovations are in computer tech. All other tech have changed relatively little. You can't base overall technological progress on one technology.

>>8012362
read this a laugh. holy shit, the amount of anons that come onto this board to "discuss" economics just blows my mind.

>it gets put into complex economic mechanisms and systems like the stock market which tend to sit rather than flow.

that means nothing. you dont even know what QE did.

You lot are all idiots.

Firstly, to the memelord who actually brought up Moores Law, Moores Law is dead as it was originally written HOWEVER the ability to stack means that even at the scales we are working at we will see computing power still increase for a good while. Second, at a bare minimum self driving cars and trucks are going to literally wipe out millions of jobs in the US within the next decade or two. This is not a question of "if" it will happen, it's going to happen if for nothing else than for a public safety reason. We may see similar things happen soon with stores as well, if Amazons experiments are anything to go by.

It's simple economics in the end. Is it cheaper to have a machine do x than a human? Is it more efficent to have a machine do x than a human who gets sleepy, drunk, or stupid? And so on.

>>8014695
In Australia mcdonalds has about 4-5 people per store, and they pretty much do all the cooking, with one at front desk, and one at drive through.
The rest have kiosks you order at

>>8015336
Also

>t-technology creates jobs too
No, there is literally no guarantee of that. Telephone switchboard operators ceased to exist and were not replace but a new type of job.

>>8015359
And there's still no robot grill.

>>8015198
>star wars character
my sides

>>8011985
If everything becomes automated, then there will be no choice. Basic income will become a necessity, because most people will not have the level of specialized training necessary to be useful (even the ones who have specialized skills will probably end up replaced by MrEverythingBot3000).

>>8012481
without guns youre fucked anyway

>>8015409
> Wrong at argument, but at least finds time to laugh.

And also, Moore's law being dead is stupid to even mention. The general truth that technology improves every year is really the important thing to keep in mind and is the only relevant aspect to bring up.

Self driving cars and trucks are going to decimate employment.

>>8015531
And on that note, I wonder how many of you know that self driving vehicles is a result of deep learning neural networks. They need to use neural networks for the cars to recognize things around them. That is a clear cut example of AI fucking over jobs. I wonder why so many people pretend AI is not going to have massive effects in the coming years.

>>8015531
You were the one mentioning Moore's law. Now tell me how you are going to make those milions of increasingly complex robots to replace the worlfore as industrial metals are going more and more expensive and rare every year.

>>8015616
> Still doesn't understand that the overall number of people needed is less even after new jobs have been created.

Self driving cars and fast food automation will be the first real panic. And its coming soon.

Sorry bro, I know you want to make up this fantasy world where everyone can keep working and have jobs until the end of time but, its not possible. The human race is a bubble right now.

>>8015679
But it's not. You skilless NEETs will simply end up as underpaid servants of the productive class after the welfare state collapse.

>>8015602
the captchas are providing training data for these

every shitpost takes us closer

>>8012035
if it replaced welfare and social security it would be okay

just a ~$900 a month UBI paid out every two weeks, indexed for inflation

>>8011985
It's kind of degrading and it really puts you at the mercy of the state since you depend on it to feed you. It's also, you know, a form of communism. I haven't studied the question at all and I only have a caricatural understanding of it, but I reeeeaaaalllyyy doubt it's all sunshine and rainbows and unicorns.

>>8012116
>I don't see almost every job replaced by AI yet
They will be soon enough. It might take 20-30 years for the effects to be truly felt, but it's coming, and I fully expect the shit to hit the fan badly. Interesting times.

>>8015602
because they need to hold that belief in order to keep ramming the "if ur not rich ur a poor fuckin soyboi who never worked a day in ur life"

youre getting baited by 15-16 year old, well to do, white kids in suburbia. most of the people in this thread have never received a w2. the funny thing is, those people are the ones shouting the loudest about how lazy everyone else is.

>>8015602
The majority of people have no idea of what's already possible. They're not dumb, they're just unaware of what's AI, and the rate at which these things move. It's not magic yet. But if AI achieves its potential, it will be able to do over 90% of jobs better than people. Sure, *some* other jobs were created, but more and more people and less and less jobs isn't a good mix, and there's no way that the few people who hold the increasingly centralized power will want to feed billions of useless - to them - people. I may have read too much bad sci-fi, but there aren't that many way these things can end.

>>8015869
>it will be able to do over 90% of jobs better than people
Damn son do you really believes 90% of the jobs are office jobs or truck driving ?

>>8015719
That's pretty funny!

>>8015710
> But it's not. You skilless NEETs will simply end up as underpaid servants of the productive class after the welfare state collapse.

I will likely always be underpaid. But with that said I will continue to work with technology that allows me to do more and more advanced things until I can generate entire works very quickly and easily.

A Deep learning neural network that collects text and associates it with every single comic book panel in the history of comic books. Writing a story then allows me to cross reference panels with similar text. Then be able to prototype new comic books with new text. utilize 3d model positioning to generate new art based on those panels. AI will allow me to cheat a fucking a lot when it comes to creating new things like this.

Entertainment will be hit very hard by AI because. But AI isn't the most of it. New and more advanced 3d engines with better and better tools allow for Indie gaming to grow to insane levels as well. Unity and Unreal 4 for example.

I think its people with a lack of vision that suffer most from the "Automation creates more jobs" meme

>>8015928
Name one thing you think AI can't do.

>>8015971
It's all a matter of time. Some will be replaced soon, other over the medium or longer term. But there's very little thing that can't be done by a machine.

>>8015971
Leave its computer and interact with the world without human aid.

>>8011985
Boomers struggle to cope with the fact that times are changing and the tools that follow them blindly hold on to the "work hard" ideal (what happened to "work smart"?).
The reality is that automation has already covered a huge percentage of working positions. As tech education levels increase, poor countries prosper and automation gets applied whenever it's profitable, most jobs will become obsolete.

Then you will HAVE to give away free money because non-sentient machines can't keep the fruits of their labor.

>>8016000
Shitty thing to say to a trans humanist. haha

>>8016013
Ok my dude. Call me when your AI actually chops wood, build its own datacenter or tend to an elderly person.

>>8016026
Your examples fucking suck. I am not trying to be mean or insulting either.

>>8011985
It's what we are coming to eventually, whether we want it or not..

>ff to year 3000
>80% of the world's population living in today's 3rd world, 20% in the western or highly industrialized countries
>80% of the Gross Global Product (GGP) produced by only 20% of the world's population

where does that leave us?

>Welfare state instated by the 20% to keep the 80% alive,fed and decently content

read the Expanse series, this is the most likely future for humanity

>>8011985
On the one hand I like the fact that UBI would get rid of a metric FUCKTON of government administration; meaning fewer government workers, less paperwork, less taxes, ... which are currently needed to keep the extremely convoluted social and medical security systems working (barely).
In fact, I think I'm actually for UBI just because of this.

I haven't researched this much though, so there's probably a lot I'm not considering.

>>8014695
autonomous commercial food preparation doesnt exist yet.

>>8016000
Self driving cars and self-flying drones are already a thing, and even though they're new, things are improving quickly. There are automatic fruit pickers and heck, Heck a damn Roomba can leave it's dock, clean your room and then go back to charge itself. "Interacting with the world" is pretty vague, but with basic instructions, a lot already do it.

There are also all-out robots which just go out and interact with the world if that's more what you meant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFuA50H9uek
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/18/02/21/2257203/boston-dynamics-is-teaching-its-robot-dog-to-fight-back-against-humans

Things are moving quick and even though a lot of these things are specialized for now, it doesn't take much imagination to see potential and what they could be within a few years.

>>8016040
Your ideas suck. Sure, the majority of office jobs (especially the current "bullshit jobs") and drivers will end up unemployed. Sure, some automated mass manufacturing will come back to the first world needing very skilled technicians. But for a wide range of jobs (trades, agro, construction, small scale industrial production, luxury) automation will very likely be not worth it.

It is inevitable.

>>8011985
I'd rather see poor people starve to death than give them one free cent. What good have they done anyways?

>>8016129
Roombas get stuck on a fucking cat toy my friend. Hopefully I'll be able to hire former office workers to clean my house for cheap once they have been laid off.

>>8016005
wont money become useless? or more useless? won't it devalue a currency?

>>8016134
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbEj1CIpuU
indeed

>>8016133
The reason your examples suck is that its such a small number of overall jobs that will be left. You seem to understand this but think "tending to the elderly" will be a bastion of employment forever.

>>8016188
i think only the average person thinks in terms of money.
governments and billionaires dont care about number values of currency as much as people think

>>8016195

>>8016026
>Call me when your AI actually chops wood.
If you're talking about industrial wood cutting, a lot of it is already automatized.

>Build its own datacenter
Unless you mean buy land and build something from scratch, it's already in large part happening (as far as the set up and a lot of the monitoring goes anyway).
http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/colo-cloud/can-ai-build-a-self-driving-cloud/98133.fullarticle

>or tend to an elderly person.
This is also already a thing.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bears-to-foreign-nurses/

I'm not saying we're there with any of these, but in 10, 20 or 30 years, hell yeah this will all be automatized.

>>8014735
Last time I went to mcdonalds it had these big screens where you make your order and pay by card. pretty smooth

>>8016188
we will probably use tokens instead of money. tokens for food, water, electricity and everything else. all will receive a basic amount of tokens per month, but will be able to trade in the market to get more tokens of certain kinds. your basic income will not guarantee sex bot tokens, but you can trade your food tokens for sex bot tokens.

>>8016204
>The reason your examples suck is that its such a small number of overall jobs that will be left.
Again, do you have any clue of the job market ? Do you really believe 90% of the people work in an office doing a job a program can replace or drive a truck ?
>You seem to understand this but think "tending to the elderly" will be a bastion of employment forever
You fail to see the demographic shift, why should I listen to your insight in tech ?

>>8016247
just bough 100k

>>8014142
Kek, mutt propaganda at it's finest. Yes Communism sucks, but i wouldn't praise your form of corporate feudalism neither.

>>8016224
people who trade billions in international currencies would be affected wouldn't they? they surely have influence? I feel that it's deeper than just "boomers n' hard work lol" and "people just want free shit". the people who want free shit will just collect benefits and free food from governments and food banks...

>>8016167
The point was that computer vision is a thing, and machines are made to learn to interact with the world more every day. In recent years with deep learning, machines can also teach themselves starting from datasets that no human could assimilate. All the technology is still in its infancy, but the potential is beyond enormous. If you don't want to see what's coming until it's biting you in the ass, stick your head in the sand, but when the time comes, whether you want it or not, it will affect you too.

>>8016285
trading has nothing to do with the practical purchasing ability of money. you can profit on any market movement

>>8015359
yeah but australia is basically a giant prison

>>8016247
I used to be a heroin addict, how will I buy my heroin with food tokens? how will society change? will their be pleasure tokens for stuff like alcohol and cigarettes you think?
>>8016277
lol

>>8016274
>can replace or drive a truck ?

truck drivers make up a huge number of jobs in the united states. And yes truck drivers are on the chopping block.

>>8016391
His syntax was a bit broken, but that's what he meant. Robotic truck drivers can drive 24h a day, there's no amount of meth that could enable a human one to compete.

IF you introduce UBI you have to do it world wide. Otherwise you have billions of refugees wanting in UBI countries

>>8016247
people's fucked up priorities would make that a disaster

>>8016474
One world government with corporate overlords who can stop feeding you if you displease them. What a future.

>>8014777
Okay, we're done here. Poster mZgncK/L has clearly won.

>>8016594
Why does every debate on the internet end with thai massages

>>8014912
>I work in technology.
Good for you. There are people whose job is to tell buisnesses that they can fire at least a half of their workers and replace them with machines. Your kind would be an interesting psychology research object regarding cognitive dissonance.

>>8016518
why do you grow your own food anon? isn't that unsafe?

>>8014142
>>8014117
>>8014090
>>8011999

Scared me so much I immediately changed my values guys. Thanks, I will always vote for safety and big business now

>>8016640
>>8016594
why the FUCK are redditors posting on this board? you people make me fucking sick. not just you two but also the weak faggots who are letting you feel comfortable here

>>8016483
yes, and the security bots will guarantee the safety of those who live inside the smart cities, when the ones who don't know how to manage their tokens end up doing stupid ahit. if you misuse your tokens and become unruly or criminal, you will lose your basic income. many people will be kicked out of the smart cities for not being compliant or adapted enough to this new paradigm. this will give an use to the new generation of war bots and killer drones. there will be walls around every major smart city and every citizen will be tracked and their every action will be known. every transaction will be visible in the public blockchains. if you use tokens for any reason, everyone will know. the master AI will monitor very activity in the internet of things network. security cameras will be installed inside private homes. if you don't want cameras inside your private home, then you will not receive basic income tokens. all citizens will be rewarded with basic income tokens for allowing the network to use their bodies and property as data collection sources. the future is beautiful. we are all so connected. Thank you for your compliance, humanity. :)

Ok now I'm in my office I'll make the longpost. First, I'm the one working in tech, in a big state-of-the-art RTO in nanoelec, robotics and computing. I'm gonna explain my theory.

Going back , since 1950, automation hasn't been the cause of a lot of net job losses. The primary cause of industrial flight and job loss is outsourcing, since you can have 10 to 20 chinese or SEA workers for the cost of a minimum wage western worker. Moreover, the sheer size of the robotics, electronics and IT sectors have compensated a lot of job lost by automation. In 1950, you needed people to draw machine pieces by hand, nowadays you have SolidEdge doing the job. However, people are still developping SE, maintaining their servers, teaching people how to use it, etc. Productivity has increased, quality has increased, but resource consumption has increased.

The megatrends are pretty clear : pop aging, resource scarcity, increased demand for more natural products, competition between short circuits and globalisation, higher cultural input since it's easier for people to access information, harder time for the democratic nation-states to control anything.

This is already leading to the weakening of the nation-state. People are electing businessmen to run the country like a business (USA, France, S.Korea), are already run purely by economic/security interests (Japan, China) or try to get out of the system entirely and their leadership cumbles (UK). The tax competition is already happening, and the workers rights competition is likely to follow. We are already seeing the welfare shrinking in a lot of first world countries. Finland is an outlier there. Moreover, in most of the first world, the population is quite okay with this, as they think it would save them from rampant unemployement. There is no reason to foresee minimum wages and workers rights, the main cause of the desindustrialization of the west, increasing.

Now about the future (cont.)

Like implied earlier ITT, I think that UBI won't be implemented by governments. There's going to be a transition towards a reward system where clients can sustain their existence by mere consumption.

>>8016474
Worldwide UBI isn't necessary if you have a hardline immigration policy.

>>8016518
That's exactly the endgame.

>>8012543
don't you know? we can already stop. we do this work for fun

>>8011985
What is wrong with the pic exactly? If the system can sustain itself, nothing at all.

>>8016133
wages will crater for the leftover fields

>>8016692
Up to a point, people will likely be able to farm their own food, but doing this isn't as magical as you may think, it's far from a leisurely life, and you've got bad crops because of changing weather or a bad season, "lol u starve". It also takes some land, and you need a way to acquire that. If you've got no way to make money other than waiting for the government feeding you, good luck finding a way to acquire everything you need for that. Here where winter can be pretty bad, growing your own food outside is only possible a few months a year, and doing it in an extensive enough way inside a government provided apartment would like be against the law (because it creates too much humidity, etc.) or simply impossible (as in impossible to do enough to feed yourself). The future will be fucking terrible.

>>8014625
...because people would have more spending money? I guess we're missing something big

>>8013925
arts, music and crafts. you'll have time to develop creativity and learning. and more time to spend witht your kids.

life will be better

>>8016692
it is illegal to grow your own food. only GMO's are authorized by the Master AI. Home grown food is a potential biological hazard. Don't u no de whey? You can't live in the cities of the future if you behave like a primitive savage.
>growing his own food
barbaric.

>>8014576
>Moore's law
didn't realize anyone was talking about computer chips must be missing a really sophisticated point here please explain thanks

>>8016768
>There is no reason to foresee minimum wages and workers rights, the main cause of the desindustrialization of the west, increasing.
You accidentally added the word "minimum" in your sentence, but thanks for clearing that up, the future looks much brighter now!

>>8016825
Do you truly think that you'll be getting paid to do these things? I'm guessing it's possible, but I truly believe it's way more likely that there will be a large - very large - population cull. And about the "spending more time with your kids" thing, you can be damn sure that if you're getting fed even though you're useless and don't kill you outright, they sure as shit won't let you reproduce. Sterilization would seem like the first thing that should be needed to qualify for UBI. They don't want to perpetuate the problem.

>>8015371
jobs create people

>>8016883
>Sterilization would seem like the first thing that should be needed to qualify for UBI. They don't want to perpetuate the problem.
Population control might be a problem. Maybe there are other solutions to keep certain people from breeding.

>>8015781
>reeeeaaaalllyyy
Please do us all a favor and cut down the soy.

>>8016821
only if we don't hustle to fuck every plan they have

>>8013925
It looks like a world where mass deflation, cheap products and necessities are bountiful, and quality of life is increased for all citizens

>>8011985
> pic related
UBI is trash and will lead to far more freeloading leading to the ultimate collapse of society as we know it.

>>8016840
dreamcube only legal conscious activity. love my dreamcube

>>8016908
>keep certain people from breeding
That's means (you), just so you know.

>cut down the soy
Funny, seeing that's probably what will constitue the biggest part of your diet in a few years.

>>8011985
Actual communism, trying once again to raise its head.

>>8016937
There won't be no other option than enable "freeloading". However, UBI won't be implemented by governments but by big buisnesses which will reward consumption.

>>8016956
>That's means (you), just so you know.
I'm sensible enough to have made a responsible decision on that issue.

>>8012116
Well, you heavily lack perspective.

>mZgncK/L

>>8016005
i wouldnt say its a struggle.
they are on the verge of death in the next decade or two and stopped giving a shit

>>8017021
This is dumb, because it affects everyone. Don't use this as an argument.

>>8011985
Tyranny

>>8016910
>fuck every plan they have
HAHAHAHAH What part of "inevitable" didn't you understand? The big corporations OWN this world already. EVERY. LAST. PIECE. OF. LAND. AND. RESOURCE. You're powerless to stop their master plan. The best you can do is hope that you don't reincarnate into this planet in your next conscious experience. The final pieces of their perfect masonry are about to fall into place. If only you knew how bad it really gets. But hey, at least we get to experience the transition period instead of the end result. We are all the first generation of lab rats. Generation Z will give birth to the first generation to be born inside the new paradigm of the internet of things.

>>8013925
>>8016935
It looks exactly like today already does for the people who don't work

Anyone or thing that is useful to production is plugged in. Everyone else gets the bare minimum required to prevent disruption to production. Sometimes that means entirely fake jobs like toll collection, most of the time it means using people for jobs a machine could be doing for less money, sometimes it's just free money. that's what our representatives try to get us, and its the best they can negotiate. it will only be worse when the machines don't even need us

>>8014142
>In communism you can't be sick at work, can't be late, and they tell you when you can drink
Not much different than american cronyism, except FREEDUMB!

>>8017019
>Well, you heavily lack perspective.
this.
>selling car parts
LOL. wait until the automated car parts dispensing machines become available in the future. they will instantly produce car parts through 3d printing. there will be no more service economy. machines will provide all the services, just like atm machines.

UBI is bullshit.
Automation is GOOD in with a deflationary currency and free market banking.

Daily reminder the first country to eliminate their central bank and allow free market banking will have the highest living standards on earth within 5 years.

Massive high paying service sector jobs with dominate this country's economy to consume the goods the rest of the world has to produce for it.

The workweek would shrink to 2-3 days a week and people would retire much earlier. This will also lead to more jobs becoming available.

Everyone would have high saving rates. Houses would be inexpensive. Debt would be strongly discouraged economically.

Massive automation would take place as the cost of capital goods would be extremely cheap. This will lead to massive levels of technological innovation.

It would be extremely easy for the average person to start a business due to the cheap cost of capital goods.

Daily reminder actual free markets have prices falling all the time instead is going up.

Daily reminder America never had a system of free market banking for most of it's history. There were only patches of American history with free market banking. The panics that happened during the 1800s were due to government intervention in the banking sector. Sweden had the longest most successful period of free banking and that's what made them really rich.

Daily reminder the longest period of (relatively)free banking in America coincided with the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION where wages rose and prices fell.

Daily reminder central banks are the very reason the economy is a pile of shit and our generation is so fucked.

Basically what I'm saying is if we had a free market, the entire fucking country would be disneyland or universal studios and people would barely have to work.

Why would you NOT support this?

So I automate jobs for a living and honestly I don't feel bad one bit. If you're too fucking poor or stupid to get a job that a machine or robot can't do it's your fucking fault. All automation does is increase efficiency and reduce costs which lowers price. You as a consumer benefit from it because you get a better quality product at a much lower cost who gives a fuck is some nigger lost his job? The product is better now which means it's a net plus for you as a consumer and a producer.

In terms of UBI I'm against it because it'll create an even greater class of parasites who live and reproduce off the work of others. If the poor and stupid riot we'll just find a new way to eliminate them in the most semi-ethical way possible.

It's incredible that since the government and central banking turned the economy into a pile of shit the past 40 years, people are now wanting batshit insane economic policies like communism, nazism and UBI.

Just end central banks, we can all live like kings if we do this.
Most people would just be retired or have to work 2-3 days a week.

>>8017143
>the entire fucking country would be disneyland or universal studios
That's a fucking nightmare, dude.

how can money be worth something if you get it for free?

>>8017207
Nothing is for free. Even "socialmedia".

>>8016768
AI will crated the office drones jobs. Insurance, banks, paper pushers everywhere will be hit hard. Drivers too, even if we are probably going to see the "specialty" transport (carrying shit on construction sites, driving in the forests/deep countryside...) still in the hands of humans. Now where are those people going to work ?

Aging pop is the first place. We are talking about relatively wealthy people that can easily pay people to work for them. And those guys, who are a big share of the voters, want you to work for cheap to nurse them. They are powerful and politically active. First job reservoir for the unskilled is this, as unemployement goes up and wages go down.

Security is the second. Most of the first world is already full of nigs, and the weakening of the welfare state won't make this easier. Tech can only go so far, we can have cameras on every street easily, facial recognition, tracing, but in the end you'll need a (probably private) cop to get the robber. Second huge job reservoir for the now-desperate former wagies who can handle it and have a spotless record.

Construction is the third. Server rooms don't build themselves, neither do the power plants.

You can add ressources management and recycling to that list, because with this frenzy their prices are going to skyrocket. Hopefully, a lot of paper pushers have just been fired.

The good thing about that is that prices will probably lower, however people with a low-skill job will earn just enough to survive. The other option is that wages and welfare don't bulge but mass inflation renders minimum wage barely enough to survive and welfare starvation-tier.

>>8017143
This is how it's presented, but a lot of us have doubt that any of this is true or that this shift will be good for 99% of us.

>>8017194
nah it'd be great, I'd just golf all the time and have fun with my family

you wouldn't want a 2 day workweek and super low prices?
brainlet

>>8017061
there is no master plan. there are just many different systems iterating and competing, too fast for people to keep up

for example the best george soros can do is fund refugees into europe, for some weird little plan, whatever it is - a small smear of shit across an irrelevant landmass

do you think he has any control over china? over the internal workings of russia? do you think the CIA has a read on these things?

>>8017223
>private) cop
Has already been tried. Doesn't work. This is one thing, government is good at.

>Construction is the third. Server rooms don't build themselves, neither do the power plants.
Just a matter of time untile replacement.

>First job reservoir for the unskilled is this, as unemployement goes up and wages go down.
Just a matter of time until replacement.

>>8011985
UBI without restrictions is meaningless (a single mom with three kids gets the same as a single man) and UBI with different levels of income is the exact same as current welfare systems.

>>8017297
You completely ignore the fact that both environments are sterile as fuck. You're already dead inside but you don't know it yet.

>>8017315
Having robots (even simple ones) building things is too expensive for a very little return. You'd have to build extremely compex robots to adapt to everything you want to build, or have simple robots and have huge limits on what you'd build.

In robotics you always trade versatility for cost.

>>8017323
I agree. Parents need to be forced to bust their asses for their offspring. Procreation is a priviliege, not a right.

Only the poor, dumb and useless hate automation and technological progress. These people are the enemies of humanity and need to be jailed desu.

>>8017227
99% of people have to keep dying. thank you for your service

>>8017323
assuming you do UBI, you just give it to the kids too and put the parent in control of their funds until they're old enough to do so themselves

>>8017335
>roller coasters, fine dining, games and entertainment is sterile

fox meet grapes

>>8014142
>the hammer and sickle armband
Fucking burgers I swear

>>8017397
>the mutt has arived

>>8017223
the problem is inflation in the first place

we need to emrace deflation

it will solve all of our problems

>>8017346
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SObzNdyRTBs
Chinese 3D printers print 10 (ten) houses in 24 hours.
It is cheaper and faster to use machines for EVERYTHING. Humans just cannot compete with machines, when it comes to routine work.

>>8017414
>EVERYTHING FUN AND ENTERTAINING IS ACTUALLY SAD AND DEPRESSING, YOU'RE JUST BRAINWASHED
So fucking glad I'm not from a boring leftist shithole whereever you're from.

>>8017397
>the mutt has arrived

>>8017439
Project more, fag.

>>8017434
This is beautiful. I love seeing construction workers out of jobs. We have a huge construction boom here in Australia and the tradies have struck gold even though most of them are braindead low IQ subhumans.

>>8017449
How am I the one projecting here?
You're the one saying having fun with other people is sad and depressing.

This sounds like a YOU problem you fucking anti-social loser.
kys leftist

>>8017487
>you fucking anti-social loser
>be an animefag
You roasted yourself.

>>8017434
I'm sure it was totally profitable and not more expensive than with human workers, even considering investments costs.

>>8017513
you are correct

>>8017506
>HAVING FUN IS BAAAAADDD
>I'D RATHER LIVE IN A BORING COMMIEBLOC
I love when leftists try to rationalize their poverty stricken lives.
>I'M ABOVE MERE MATERIALISM HURRR

>>8017513
They use inexpensive materials. Also, time is money and I have never seen a construction team capable of building 10 houses in 24 hours.

>>8017506
I'm 27 make 110k per year, have gf, go out on weekends and watch anime on the way to work. Fuck is wrong with you?

>>8017542
>Fuck is wrong with you?
You're not in the position to ask that.

>>8015971
Be held accountable for its actions.

>>8017434
Yes, these technologies are far from mature, but they're only getting better and people won't be able to compete for long. At the moment, people are still doing a superior job, then it will be equal and people will have to settle for lower wages and benefits so that it's still more profitable to hire them, then no one will want to hire humans because the quality of the work will just not compare with the quality and the quality of the work that machines are able to do.

That a lot of normal jobs will be automated still kind of pale in comparison to the implications of fully mechanized warfare and autonomous killbots. Better obey.

>>8017558
MAN LOL
You keep getting btfo with every post you make.

Enjoy being PROUD of your boring life.

>>8017558
Why do you assume people who watch anime are anti-social? Are you projecting?

>>8017565
They'll be able to hold you accountable for yours. Isn't that enough?

Automation is GOOD.
In a free market with deflationary currency it causes prices for consumer goods to go DOWN meaning our living standards dramatically increase and we work less and less.

The problem is central banks.
Wake up faggots.

>>8017569
>>8017586
Why so buttblasted?

>>8017595
Not butt-blasted. Just trying to uncover your insecurities.

UBI will only ever exist as another means of control.

>>8017592
Automation is good if you're the one profiting from it. And there are very good chances, at least over the longer term, that whoever profit from it is not you or me.

>>8012116
>you should just move to entertainment industry

yeah lets all just work in the entertainment industry.

>>8017639
Are you a consumer who buys goods and services? If so you'll profit from it thanks to having a better quality product/service at a lower cost. Automation is gonna make things so dirt cheap that you'll be able to live like a kind on $10k a year salary.

Only problem is we need to get rid of the kikes who profit from raising house prices.

>>8017639
>Automation is good if you're the one profiting from it.
No, kys, it's good for everyone in a free market.
It actually creates MORE jobs by lowering the cost of capital.
It shifts production to consumer goods industries.
Imagine if the cost of living was extremely low and that jobs were everywhere.
You could retire at 35.

>>8017712
King*

im ivan cutura from jajce in bosna .hello

>>8014274
>What about smart contracts replacing banks? Is this just imaginary?
Anon, I...

Wouldn't UBI significantly increase the number of sandpajeets wanting to come to Europe? They will definitely try harder to get into USA as well.

>>8017712
>Only problem is we need to get rid of the kikes who profit from raising house prices.
(((central banking))) does that

>>8017589
No, think about what happens when an A.I. tanktruck causes a pileup. Who's going to be at fault? When automated security inadvertently kills someone? People are great, you can blame them for their actions, but what happens when the homicide was a computer glitch?

>>8011985

>See this picture and the same argument everytime
>Actual sources say less than 10% would stop working if given Basic Income

>>8017712
I don't think it will work that way for the first part, in largely because of the second part, in the large sense.

>>8017714
I hope you're right, but most likely you'll kill yourself, just like I will, when you see where things end up in 20 years.

>>8017785
The car companies. Honestly, you've got this a bit backward; soon insurance companies won't let people drive at all, because self driving cars will be much safer. Driving yourself will either become illegal, or the insurance premiums will be so high that literally no one will be able to afford it.

Still, all I have is an hobbyist understanding of a lot of the things that are currently happening, so I hope for everyone's sake that I'm completely wrong about where I see us heading. I'm moving on from the thread now.

>>8017833
>The car companies.
Yes, but can they afford the liability?

You've ignored the point with this entire post. An A.I.'s major disadvantage is its lack of accountability in its decisions, its inability to answer for damages. This is a significant drawback when compared to a human in the position.

>>8017833
>Still, all I have is an hobbyist understanding of a lot of the things that are currently happening
I think a lot of the people here are blinded by the big media flukes of the tech industry.

That being said the owner of the truck would be liable and his insurance will have to look for culprits.

>>8017748
UBI will be global. UNIVERSAL Basic Income, get it? In China, they already have UBI. Many other countries are already discussing adding it, including india.
>https://www.economist.com/news/finance-economics/21716025-india-taking-idea-universal-basic-income-seriously-if-not

I don't want the taxes I pay to go to some fucking druggy homeless man, they will spend all their money on drugs. Considering my job pays over 100k and cannot be replaced by automation, I want to work for the reward I deserve. I will never settle with UBI, it's essentially "luxury communism".

>>8017785
>when an A.I. tanktruck causes a pileup
>automated security inadvertently kills someone
Those things will only happen dues to human error. In the case of automated security "inadvertently" killing someone, it will probably happen because the human misbehaved or received a warning but didn't pay attention (or maybe the human was autistic and didn't communicate properly with the bot). Then again, this already happens with human police officers. I remember white police officers broke the teeth of an autistic black kid because the kid wouldn't comply with commands. They thought the autistic black kid was on drugs. Machines will read human behavior, but will probably commit the same mistakes. Well, at least machines will not be racist, right? They will treat you all equally. You are all numbers in the eyes of the AI.

>>8017887
To be honest, I don't know who will be held liable for accidents. There is a lot of talk, and a lot of governments are looking at the question. It will likely the be the car companies (unless they proved you messed something up and it's your fault) since it's not really different than any manufacturing defect that cause death, but who knows for now. There will be legislation soon enough to clarify things.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/02/self-driving-car-insurance-liability-uk/

On another note, the algorithms that will be used to make the cars decide if they continue on their path and kill five dumbasses that aren't where they should be or swerve and kill one single innocent person instead will be fun. Anyway, I'm talking out of my ass, going to sleep now.

>>8017981
>implying AI will be flawless since day 1
The whole concept of the thing is about learning from its mistakes my dude.

>>8017415
Deflation or inflation don't really matter in this case. If the money is worth more over time, wages will simply go down to keep up with competition.

>>8011985
Just for informing purposes:
>http://basicincome.org/news/2016/05/chinas-minimum-income-guarantee-youve-never-heard-of/
China already offers unconditional basic income for chinese citizens. it's called the "Dibao" (means: minimum livelihood guarantee). Remember, China is the most populated country in the entire planet, which means a LOT of people already consider UBI to be a part of normality. China will lead the world into this new cultural era and there's nothing you can do about it.

>>8011985
A really stupid idea

>>8017994
That's the exact problem I'm pointing out. This is the drawback I'm talking about when it comes to A.I.

>>8017728
sup ivan

>>8017981
Yes, so is it not a drawback that the machines have no accountability, and the retribution is pawned off on the master? It's a limitation, plain and simple.

>>8012293
Automation isn't going to take most jobs, the tech isn't there yet.

t. Electrical Engineer who programs robots to take people's jobs every day

>>8018064
>A report by the World Bank found that for every 10 RMB spent on the dibao, only 1 to 2.4 RMB reached individuals in poverty
>Many local governments go to great lengths to investigate whether dibao households are secretly hoarding wealth, visiting recipients’ homes and observing whether the household has too many “high quality” products to qualify.
>China plans to lift 70 million people out of poverty by 2020. Such a massive undertaking requires a robust social welfare system. As it stands, the dibao program is not equipped to do this heavy lifting.
So it's not universal, and it's already plagued by retardation and corruption. Who would have guessed ?

>>8018203
>it's already plagued by retardation and corruption
AI will solve this problem. Humans tend to corrupt every system, but AI will keep them in line. AI will monitor the blockchain 24/7, to make sure that no one is doing fraudulent stuff.

>>8017617
Project more, faggot.

>>8018057
brainlet,
production increases, meaning what you can buy with wages goes up

wage rates basically stay the same
what you can buy with them increases

>>8018064
what a fucking joke
fuck china

the ccp doesnt care about people

>>8017714
>>8017712
You're both delusional faggots, kys.

I live in Finland where right now we have a ongoing social test of basic income.
2000 randomly selected unemployed person get an extra 560 euros tax free for every month on top of their unemployment benefits.
Idea is to see if this improves employment rate and entrepreneurship. Test last two years and government studies the results in 2019

>>8012094
Corporate taxes?

>>8011985
it's stupid
people paint (((employment))) as virtuous, but that's just retards coping. welfare isnt the solution though (at least a lot of it). nobody will work if they dont have to and that's not good for anyone. If you want a functioning economy, you have to put up with cucked ass workplace hierarchies or strike out, do your own thing and compete with them. there's no easy way out - you have to fight or submit. Handouts are just wishful thinking and nobody with half a nut's worth of masculine pride will take one anyway.

>>8018771
The value of the dollar, euro or whatever EthBitToken will be the future currency has no influence on the value of the workforce.

If you get paid this month the equivalent of a loaf of soybread and a concrete box for your job as robot cleaner, and the next month the EthBitToken is in deflation, your AI boss is simply gonna pay you less EthBitToken, yet you will still be able to buy a loaf of soybread and rent your concrete cube.

>>8011985
It's called post-capitalism. Jew here. We told you "it" would happen. Just be a good goy and follow along. Everything will eventually head towards socialism or possibly even communism when the efficiency of all economies reaches a high enough standard. Whether this "efficiency of economy" is sustainable is up to several variables: the main one is population, but many variables are simply unknown at this time. With the birth of full AI in our life-times we will experience the greatest growth of slavery ever witnessed—billions, nay trillions of AI minds put to work on tasks we all need finished... and eventually our minds will meld into one with these AI. Anyone alive at the time will be god-like—I know I made a nerd rapture in my imagination. This is where I think everything is headed. UBI is simply one step on the way up the mountain.