/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>799309

pretty much

>10% interest
Wut

>which the government can take away anytime.
Wut

But yeah, that's how it is. Don't forget that some condos have massive HOAs.

>>799315

10% interest might be steep, but you get the point, its TOO DAMN HIGH

Also the government can take away your home if your home is standing on ground they need, like new school or new government building or for any reason really

It's called expropriation

Yeah, HOA fees sure

But think about it like this, $100,000 + $1,100,000

+ more fees per month for upkeep, and taxes and all that shit

A condo is just

Rent, HOA, and utilities are all included

$1000-$1500

That is $12,000 - $18,000 a year

And over 25 years, that is just $300,000 to $450,000

Over half, closer to 1/3 the cost of owning a home

A savings of $1,000,000.

With an extra $1,000,000 in your pocket, with an average return on investment of 20% (realistically you could get 30% if you work at it, or more)

So you could invest your original $100,000

Then invest your monthly savings, which is about $4500-$1500, $3000

And do it for 25 years, in a portfolio you never have to touch...

And after 25 years, guess how much money you have made?

People are retarded to buy a house, or even get a mortgage to get one, its so fucking stupid, its torture and kills all your potential

>>799323
>Rent, HOA, and utilities are all included
>And over 25 years, that is just $300,000 to $450,000
You're forgetting the fact that rent will increase, every single year, forever, guaranteed. Your mortgage payment will never change.

Yeah, you might be paying $1200 a month to rent. Assuming a VERY modest 8% increase per year, what will it be in 10 years? That same rental will probably be about $2600. 20 years? $5600.

Your mortgage payment for an equivalent valued home will be around $1500-$2000. We'll call it $1750. In 10 years? $1750. In 20 years? $1750.

People who say renting is better in the long run never take into consideration the fact that rent will always go up. Always. It will always go up, forever. It's called inflation. Mortgages don't deal with inflation.

>>799309
Wait, if they are paying $44K / year in mortgage, why not just save that up over 9 years and pay the whole thing in cash? insstead of being locked in for 30 yrs

>500k home
>need 20% down
>like 10% interest
>25 years
>government can take away at any time
>would rather rent
>house is a tax on the people that don't know any better

You know nothing about the average interest on a mortgage, the average price of a home, and you aren't mature enough to do anything but manufacture reasons to resist growing up at this point in your life. The fact that you could have googled at last some of the above tells me that explaining why you are wrong would be wasted time.

This board is for business and finance, not for manchildren to pretend to have outsmarted everyone else based on incorrect information and fallacies.

>>799335

instead of making a valid argument for owning a home, you chose to insult OP's character

at least try next time

>>799335
then tell us what's wrong with all this so far, asshat.

>>799309
Where the fuck are you getting those numbers?

Buying does not always make sense, especially if you are not secure for a good 5 to 10 years or in a retarded market, but those things aside it's cheaper than renting.

When you rent you are paying someone else to own the property plus profit.

And sure, with a mortgage you are paying jewbucks to the bank, but it's still cheaper than renting the same property

>>799340
All the numbers, for starters.

YOU CAN WRITE OFF YOUR MORTGAGE PAYMENTS.

This renting meme has got to stop.

>>799331

But the beauty of renting is you're not tied down for 25 years, you can make your rental timeline 5 years, or 1 year, and just move somewhere else!

You can't do that with a house.

Also house mortgage might not change, but what about property tax, home insurance, and other things? They will go up as well won't they?

So again, renting is still much cheaper

But good point, that completely crossed my thoughts anon

>>799333

Some people don't want to wait till they're 35-40 to buy a house, they'd rather buy at 25-30 because of parental and peer pressure

>>799335

I am in Canada, this is what the housed around me pay

Everything is available online, so I did my research, btw that house in the first post is my house / neighbourhood

Taken like 3 days ago.

Neighbour spent like $150k to get a pool and finish off all the concrete and driveway, they actually got a crane to carry it over the house!

>>799342

Read this : >>799347

>>799339

Thanks

>>799343

These numbers are very similar to what the houses in my neighborhood pay, and what my parents pay

I've seen their bills, these are the numbers in a nutshell for the most part

I've also done my condo research

And those are the numbers

Numbers can be different everywhere

But the math mostly shows all over north america, that renting is much cheaper than buying over the same period

>>799347

>Anons talking about 500k house
>Be in Sydney Australia
>Not unusual for 3br house in decent suburb to sell for 1.5mil

Fuck

>>799352

My house is 4 bedrooms, now 5, when we bought it was 500k, now it's worth above 750k

This was only in 7 years

With this neighbors new pool, our house value goes up, which means, we could get more than 750k in a year or two, maybe 850k

And if more houses sell, then that increases it even more

Also our house is one of the cheaper models in the court

>>799351

>Be in Sydney Australia
>Houses within 20km of the city are all over 1mill AUD

Well at least it's not London

>>799348
>but property tax and insurance
You are still paying this when you rent. Its just called rent.

Your rent payment is a monthly breakdown of cost of owning the property ( including taxes, legal expenses, general upkeep) plus an estimated buffer fot future expenses ( like major appliances or the roof shitting the bed) plus profit for the owner.

Often the owner actually has a mortgage so you are paying his intrest too.

Check it out for yourself. Find some rental properties online, then go find comps or assesor data to determine its sale value, then run it through mortgage and tax calculators.

>>799309

Recent homebuyer here.

USDA rural loan does not require that large of a deposit.

And interest is nowhere near that fucking high. If you're paying 10%, you're getting hosed.

>>799323

>buying a house anywhere near a HOA

I just bought a house. I already have a property which was under loan but has already been paid off. My mortgage payment was around $500 a month and I still rent it out for $700 a month.

I also own some other plots of land. Learned from my great-grandpa who bought up a bunch of cheap land that ended up being sold for a lot of money. Land is very valuable, especially as more people populate this country.

>>799358

Property tax is nothing compared to rent. We have a family property. We charge $500 a month to rent it. Older home. Been in the family since the 1920's. You know how much we pay per year for property tax?

Under $250. We make that shit up in half a month's rent.

>>799351
Well my mortgage is 3.2 percent and I used to fucking sell mortgages all over the us and I have never even seen a 10 percent mortgage that still existed. It would have to be from the fucking 80s, or from some shitty mortgage shop for people with Jerry springer credit. Basic rates have been in the 3 to 4 range for years now. Even if you had an old 6 or 7 percent loan you would just refinance, unless you had totally fucked up your finances and couldn't.

So try your math again with a more realistic rate.

Let's also try some research on what actual down payment requirements are.

>>799323

yea that's a nice thought

right now my condo in austin Tx is also increasing in value 13% a year for now :/

property can go down also XD

>>799309
that sounds like an example of someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are doing and getting a home they can't afford.

i could just as easily say that in order to rent, you have to spend 90% of your income every year for a small studio apartment, your neighbors are playing loud music all the time, and your landlord is hiking up the price faster than your salary increases.

in other words, you're a moron. rent if you have to rent, but don't embarrass yourself. most people still end up in homes in america and the only "problem" is that those homes are usually smaller than what they grew up in. besides that people get scammed into buying and selling houses they won't live in, and they lose money on that. mortgages are obviously worth it if you'll be living there.

>>799360
Fine, but in most places property tax is alot more then that.
In either case it does not matter. I was just explaining to this child that you end up paying the property tax either way. If you buy, you pay the tax. If you rent you pay the tax for the landlord.

I've seen some big success with home buyers though. My parents bought a house for 52k in 1993. Just sold it for 210k.

>>799347

>But the beauty of renting is you're not tied down for 25 years, you can make your rental timeline 5 years, or 1 year, and just move somewhere else!

Which is why you're not supposed to buy a home until you've found some place you actually want to stay in for a prolonged period of time. If you don't go out and look for more permanent living arrangements, you will hemorrhage money every month until you die. Maybe that's worth it to you, but given that we're on the Business & Finance board of a Cantonese printmaking website, I suspect most other people do not share this sentiment.

>>799374

~84k adjusted for inflation, but right at 2.5 times profit.

Not bad at all for a 22 year investment the family got a lot of use out of.

be a good goy and pay schlomo monthly rent

>>799309
>10% interest
>try 1.5%

>>799335
this

>>799340
a 10% interest rate
not understanding amortization
not understanding that the landlord factors in those costs into your rent
not understanding mortgage interest rate deduction

>>799365
>Well my mortgage is 3.2 percent
jealous.. mine's at 3.6'ish.... but no closing costs.
>you had totally fucked up your finances and couldn't.
sounds like OP

If I was to rent a house instead of own, in theory. Cost here would be around $350 for a cheap 1-2 bedroom house where I live.
Per year : $18,200
Let's say I live to 70
45 x 18200 = 819,000
But in reality that rent would of increased. So lets say (and this is being unrealistic and in your favour) it ends up being 1,000,000
Now count in the fact that I have children and need a bigger place to rent. That would end up being over that.
All that laid to someone else. I die and leave nothing to my children.
Now let's pretend I buy a house for $500,000
Put my rent towards a mortgage instead and pay it off in 15 years. If I want to move I could rent out that house and rent someone else's.

I can't be bothered explaining more.

>>799374
That same 52k would have been close to half a million if it was in a stock market index fund.

>>799331
>Yeah, you might be paying $1200 a month to rent. Assuming a VERY modest 8% increase per year, what will it be in 10 years?

My rent increase over the last four years has run at 0.5% per year.

Mortgages are paid for through access to credit, while rent it paid for through income. What this means is that rents can only go so high before the market loses the ability to pay them outright, not because the market doesn't want to, but because it doesn't have the income to. Rents cannot increase exponentially like you are suggesting otherwise they just stop getting paid.

This is why in the most (or one of the most) inflated housing market on the planet - Vancouver - rents are not similarly inflated. They're higher than other places because median income is higher, but they haven't grown at the same pace as housing prices have.

>>799437
>If I was to rent a house instead of own, in theory. Cost here would be around $350 for a cheap 1-2 bedroom house where I live.
>Per year : $18,200
>Let's say I live to 70
>45 x 18200 = 819,000

Your house would cost you $4200 per year, not 18,000, so your cost to age 70 would be 189,000, which is less than the price of the house you were to buy.

>But in reality that rent would of increased. So lets say (and this is being unrealistic and in your favour) it ends up being 1,000,000

Yes, it would, but on average it could not outpace inflation which runs at 3%, generally. So lets assume it does run at that.

Your total cost to rent to age 70 is $390,000.

>All that laid to someone else. I die and leave nothing to my children.

Your basic lack of math skills leads me to believe that you have no idea how to invest the money saved from renting rather than buying.

>Now let's pretend I buy a house for $500,000

You'd be paying 1625 per month, instead of 350, so you'd have less to invest, you'd also be paying up front more than the cost of renting.

>>799631
You're entire argument is based on the idea that renting a home for $350/mo will give you the same quality as a house costing $500k, which is wrong. You're either retarded or intellectually dishonest.

>>799631

Continued.

If you invested the money you saved by renting, and invested, getting 7% over 45 years, you'd leave your kids 1.12 Million inflation adjusted dollars.

>>799634
>You're entire argument is based on the idea that renting a home for $350/mo will give you the same quality as a house costing $500k, which is wrong.

I'm renting an condo that costs 1350 per month, and gives me the quality of a condo that would cost me 4000 per month or so (all costs considered) to own.

You are bad at math and don't know what you're talking about.

>>799637
>that would cost me 4000 per month or so (all costs considered) to own.

How much $$ do you feel the condo is worth? I'll check your math for you.

>>799646
>How much $$ do you feel the condo is worth? I'll check your math for you.

Feel? I feel the condo is worth around 1350 per month.

Know? I know the condo below me (which is identical, other than one story in height difference) just sold for $650,000.

That's about a 3250/mo mortgage payment (25yr amortization) plus condo fee, plus home insurance, or close to 4000/mo.

>>799649
Your landlord is only charging $1350/mo on a $650k home? I have never seen anything that comes close to that.

They're a fool for not charging more and/or just selling it. There is a natural equilibrium that occurs between rent cost and monthly payments.

The scenario you describe is either a lie or you lucked out.

>>799652
>Your landlord is only charging $1350/mo on a $650k home? I have never seen anything that comes close to that.

You should come to Vancouver some time.

>There is a natural equilibrium that occurs between rent cost and monthly payments.

There is no such thing. Rents are paid by current income. Mortgages are paid by credit. These two can be decoupled to a surprising degree, so rents and prices can be totally out of whack.

>>The scenario you describe is either a lie or you lucked out.

The scenario I'm in is called "Vancouver".

>>They're a fool for not charging more and/or just selling it.

She's Mainland Chinese. I'm pretty sure she thinks of me as a 'peasant' for renting, but I don't give a fuck and it works out well financially for me. Same thing happens all over the city. People have rent that's below the owner's mortgage (again, rents are from income, mortgages are from credit), but the cultural attachment to homeownership is so strong amongst the Mainlanders they just keep plowing money into properties they would be better off selling.

>>799309
>you need a 20% down payment
>with like 10% interest

Interest rates are historically very low because the governments have tried to "lubricate" the economy with cheap money to stimulate things following the 2008/2009 credit crunch.

This means rates are inevitably going to go up, to historically average rates of around 7-8%. This means if you take a mortgage now you're taking on an escalating loan with no guarantee that the property will realize capital appreciation.

The situation is critical in Canada with Toronto and Vancouver housing markets behaving so irrationally, you have people borrowing from their parents to put 5% deposits down on 800k mortgages at artificially low interest rates when the real economy has shrunk and wages have increased no more than 2%..

Hyper bubble territory.

>>799614

Yup.

Equities have outperformed real estate by a big margin.

"Investing" in real estate is for simpletons not savvy enough to know how to open a brokerage account, like Italians and Persians.

>>799309
tl;dr

Here's some actual advice:
If you plan on living somewhere for 5 years or less then rent.
If you plan on living somewhere for more than 5 years then buy.

>>799673
Headlines in the National Post like

How to make your portfolio ‘as inefficient as possible': Pay down the mortgage

Aren't helping things. It's pathetic to watch your buying power get watered down by people that buy shit they can't afford... Not to mention an economy that punishes savers. It's pitting the stupid against the risk-adverse and it's going to destroy our economy.

>>799685

>1.7% on 2 year GICs
>Less than a single percentage point in "high interest" savings accounts

Fucking Canadian governments are subsidizing gluttonous pig-consumers and punishing savers.

And believe it, they're going to bail out heavily indebted and over-leveraged mortgage holders when interest rates starting going up and the drooling idiots that bought into housing suddenly can't afford a 15% increase in their regular mortgage payments.

Fuck all of this.

>>799721
>suddenly can't afford a 15% increase in their regular mortgage payments.

Lets not forget all hose people with mortgages and HELOCs which also jump in payments when interest rates rise.

>>799631
Not an ameritard, we pay rent per week.

did you forget that after paying for 25 years you own the house? Maybe it won't appreciate in value but at a minimum you should be able to sell it for 500k one day. Thus your total cost is not significantly higher than renting. Possibly lower when factoring in 1-2% appreciation annually and deductibility of mortgage payments

>Rent vs Buying shitposting
When will you rentfags understand the concept of building equity when you mortgage a home

>>799673
>what is a fixed rate loan

>>799685
but this is true, at least for fixed mortgages. a mortgage fixed at 4.5% or less is a terrible place to pour your money into; you can almost collect that much on coupons and dividends in the market, even if share prices and the home don't appreciate at all

>>799331
oh look its the hurr durr everything will increase in price man

great argument

notsrs

>>799309
homebuyers just got rekt ITT

wowzers

Someone is trying to convince me that paying for their mortgage is a good idea for me..who could it be?

>>799631
You, read this: >>799848

I'm a girl and I'd never date a guy who expected me to live in an apartment for the rest of my life.

>>801341
If your pussy is good enough to hook a billionaire, get out there kiddo, but if you're posting on 4chan in June I doubt you're a supermodel banker wife who want to Vassar.

>>801341
Nobody cares about you and your lofty princess expectations. Now, stay skinny and learn how to please men.

>Queue the White Knights

>>801341

Bitch, you will go out on one or two dates with me before you come to my place, so therefore, you dated me, and THEN after you come to my place, you can say whatever the fuck you want

but in the end, you dated me

what, you're gonna ask every guy you meet if they live in an apartment? lol

fucking gold digging bitch, go fuck yourself, hopefully you get some maggots in your pussy and you're forced to stay in a hospital room, then see how much even the janitors wanna fuck you, they'd rather fuck the dead bodies in the mortuary in the basement.

>>801341

And who the fuck said YOU HAD TO RENT an apartment?

lol, fucking gold digger

>>801373
>this guy

>>799429
Why would you even tripfag on a board that has IDs?

Is our need for special attention so high that being unique in a thread is not enough?

Jesus christ man. Seek medical attention.

>>799309
>be stuck with something for 25 years.
ever heard of a real estate agent?

>>801341
Obvious b8 is obvious

>>801375
>gold digger because she doesn't want to live in an apartment for the rest of her life

Some apartments/condos can cost well over $1M, and some houses can cost well under 100k.

>>799637
You don't see the reality of the situation; that condo does not cost the owners more than $1350/month. They're charging you the full mortgage payment.

What you're not grasping is fixed pricing; even if, by some wildfuck reason, buying the home would cost you 4k/month, the rent in 5 years would be more than 4k/month and you can rent it out after using it as a residency.

Like everything else relating to money, the key to real estate is time.

>>801339

Crunching the numbers again it doesn't matter. With a 500k mortgage you'd end up paying a 1.3 million over 45 years in mortgage and upkeep to buy. Your cost to rent is 800k, but you save close to 2000 per month in costs. Invested, that will yield 1.6million over 45 years.

So, at the end:

To buy: Total cost: 1.3 million. Total assets at end 500k.

To rent: Total cost: 800k. Total assets at end 1.6 million.

So, renting, you'd leave your kids enough to buy the 500k house and have more than a million left over for hookers and blow.

All inflation adjusted dollars, btw.

>>801576

Also, don't forget you WILL get lucky over 45 years in the stock market, so you WILL make more than 1.6M.

amirite

>>801551
>>that condo does not cost the owners more than $1350/month.

It very well may not, but it would cost me much more than that to buy an identical unit, so the economical choice is to rent. And by "cost more" I mean, non-recoverable cost, such as land taxes, condo fees and mortgage interest.

> even if, by some wildfuck reason, buying the home would cost you 4k/month,

That wildfuck reason is called Vancouver. Yes, the housing and rental market are essentially decoupled here. House/condo prices are fucking insane AND people actually pay those insane prices AND nobody pays their landlords mortgages when they rent. This city is another fucking level of crazy when it comes to housing.

>the rent in 5 years would be more than 4k/month and you can rent it out after using it as a residency.

I've been living in this condo for four years and my rent has not increased. So, adjusted for inflation, I've gotten a 8-12% break on my rent so far depending on how you count inflation. I plan on living in this unit, with this landlord for as long as I fucking can.

>>801581

>>801589

kek

>>801581
>>801590

Sorry, wrong image. This one is slightly more sarcastic.

>>801591

kekX2

are you a student in vancouver, or like finished undergrad now working? or doing grad school?

>>801593
>are you a student in vancouver, or like finished undergrad now working? or doing grad school?

I am a structural welder/fabricator.

>>799309
pretty much, but it's even worse than that. we are in a massive real estate bubble

residential construction will become even more automated thanks to strides in robotics and self operating equipment. once the market realizes that real estate can be produced at 1/10th the historical cost which is maybe 8 years from now, we'll see a massive drop in prices

>>801581
What maths are you doing. Mortgage for me would not end up being over a million you incompetent sperg

ITT people who own places in low cost of living areas try and relate to people living in the bubble cities like vancouver, san francisco, sydney, london, auckland, melbourne...

>>799309
Beautiful bait OP, you got everyone to extol the virtues of home ownership. Bravo.

Well crafted.

>>801627
Your post implies that the cost of construction is the only factor in the cost of a piece of property. Real estate even without construction has an inherent worth - getting exponentially higher in cities as areas close to the central business district become more packed and in more demand.

>>801791
>bubble cities
>Sydney and Melbourne

I can't speak for the rest, but I can tell you now that neither Sydney nor Melbourne are in a bubble at all. This is just the real value of real estate in those cities. Most of the houses and apartments being sold in both cities are being snapped up by the millions of Chinese and Hong Kong millionaires who find them comparatively cheap when placed in a more global context which views property prices in Shanghai, etc... in other words, don't expect this "bubble" to end any time soon.

And when the growth does eventually slow, the Aussies better prepare themselves because the shit is going to hit the fan and hard. I don't want to be here when it happens.

>>801791
Pretty much this.

Where I'm from in Louisiana, 300k can get you a decent house on the lake within the rich part of town, and that's without any price negotiation.

I own a house because my mortgage payment is comparable to local rent and I don't have to live near poor people.

>>801830
>I can tell you now that neither Sydney nor Melbourne are in a bubble at all.
>This is just the real value of real estate in those cities.

Lets see:
>general fear of missing out
>assumption that someone else will buy your shit at a much higher price later
>general view that it's the only way to get rich
Sure sounds like a bubble to me. Property gets a little more complicated than web company shares or tulip bulbs though because there's people just wanting to buy a place to live as well as people trying to make money at it (and perhaps more importantly, people using it as a tax deferral/discount scheme)

I'm only really worried about how the national obsession with property has dragged everything else along for the ride - banks dominating top end of the ASX means pretty much every share investor and super fund has a big indirect stake in it.

A lot of the price growth is likely driven by immigration and by allowing SMSFs access to credit to buy property, not by the media's monster-under-the-bed Chinese millionaires. At least from what I've seen, most Chinese buying shit here are residents buying a place to live and raise their families.

>>799309
Look! Yet another anti-homeownership thread! How very refreshing!

>>799429
Concisely this.

Interest rates are ~3.5% or so depending on the loan term and the mortgage interest deduction offsets the interest cost quite a bit. When you rent, you're just paying off the homeowner's mortgage (read: building their equity), covering the property taxes, covering all insurance on the property, and the homeowner's profit on top of that.

On the other hand, when you buy a home you build equity, see a benefit from the increase in the value of your home (historically at the rate of inflation for most areas - effectively offsetting inflation entirely), and get a tax deduction.

>>801253

>what is a fixed rate loan

This is Canada you cunt. At best, you can lock into a fixed rate for 10 years at a higher percentage.

>>801176

>did you forget that after paying for 25 years you own the house?

What kind of argument is this?

Equities have outperformed real estate almost everywhere.

And after 25 years of servicing an expensive loan with rising interest rates, your final prize is a plywood and particle board monster which is in a state of constant decay and requires increasingly costly repairs and maintenance, not to mention property taxes, utilities.

>>801986
>Equities have outperformed real estate almost everywhere.

You haven't been to Australia, the UK, Canada, or the United States in any place worth a damn.

>>801905
>I'm only really worried about how the national obsession with property has dragged everything else along for the ride - banks dominating top end of the ASX means pretty much every share investor and super fund has a big indirect stake in it.

Well, if that's the case then when property finally does start stagnating, it's going to be a mighty shitstorm...

>>801764
>What maths are you doing. Mortgage for me would not end up being over a million you incompetent sperg

I am not that guy, but I'm going to assume that since I'm doing math you meant me.

At a 3% interest rate (which is shit-low, BTW) a 500,000 mortgage will cost you around 700,000 in principal and interest, plus you will have to pay approximately half that cost again in upkeep and maintenance, taxes, insurance and other non-recoverable costs, which will cost you 650,000 over 45 years.

For examples of this, over 45 years you will end up buying five hot water tanks (typical lifespan 10 years) and at least two central furnaces (typical lifespan 20 years). You roof will be replaced twice, the siding on your house at least once, probably twice. You will have to paint the outside of your house SEVEN times and replace any fences five times.

You're looking at a major project every two years now, and this is just major stuff. Do you plan on walking on the same carpet for 45 years? Do you think your bathroom sink will last 45 years (hint: it won't).

Even if you wanted to cheap out and not do much maintenance or upgrades, you'd still be paying a quarter of your mortgage yearly which still puts you on the top side of 1million dollars to buy vs 800,000 to rent.

At this point the pride of ownership starts to feel more and more like crippling debt.

>>801987

I live in one of the most inflated markets in the real estate world: Toronto.

Everything I said holds true.

Prices are what they are because they were artificially supported by government intervention in trying to stimulate liquidity and keeping borrowing cheap deliberately.

So the drooling morons that bought in the last 9 years simply got lucky if they sold and cashed out of the market and moved to a cheaper city.

For anyone still remaining in Toronto, if their house made a 60% capital appreciation, they still had to find a new home in Toronto, now at a 60% or higher cost, so their net take-away is nothing.

And I'm sure homes will go up another 80% in a rising interest rate environment, when wages are stagnant and the real economy is actually shrinking...

You a realtor or home owner by any chance?

I guess you have to peddle the delusions, because your entire net worth is anchored to one asset, an incredibly dangerous situation.

When the real estate market blows here in Canada, it's going to be a spectacular calamity unlike a stock market crash, which affects only relatively few high net worth individuals.

>>801915
>Look! Yet another anti-homeownership thread! How very refreshing!

Oh look, another home owner hoping to find a greater fool so he can cash out his overvalued asset.

>>801238
>When will you rentfags understand the concept of building equity when you mortgage a home


When will mortgage slaves understand the concept of negative equity?

Their precious assets are not increasing in perceived value because they are becoming more rare or precious. It's because interest rates are at emergency low levels because of a last ditch attempt by the government to stimulate spending and giving out LOADS of money to anyone at 2.5%.

Where else can you get access to $400-700k leverage from a 5% deposit? Go to any brokerage and ask them for the same kind of leverage.... I dare you.

Basically, with a credit card loan, you can get access to a half a million dollar loan at a cheap rate.

With every mouth breather now realizing this, a catastrophic debt collapse is imminent even with the smallest rises in interest rates, which are inevitable.

Those of you in these inflated markets with only real estate as their main asset are fucked.

>>801341

>I'm a girl and I'd never date a guy who expected me to live in an apartment for the rest of my life.

What a worthless and trite opinion.

What's more appealing than a guy spending 50% of his income on accommodation?

What can be more sexier than some 30-something with a mortgage, and a townhouse, in a cul-de-sac somewhere deep in suburbia, surrounded by minivans and baskteball hoops and fat people with fat screamer offspring suffering corn-syrup induced behavioral disorders...?

A basic, vain cunt like you doesn't deserve any better tbh.

>>802006
>10% interest
>implying I didn't just buy my house for 3.5% interest

I bought my house 3 years ago for $500K and I'm about to go into closing for $715K and I'm using some of it as a down payment on a $1.2mm home. Eat a dick. Monthly payment with HOA fees + monthly MI is only $6,500

>>802017
I agree, anybody making life decisions to impress a woman is full retard. But I promise you, nothing makes a woman want to bed you more quickly than walking into a house with a grand staircase entrance and 8,000sqft of home.

But that's not really a house thing, it's more of a "women are easy to fuck when you're wealthy" thing.

>>802020

>8,000sqft of home.

Absolutely disgusting. What do you even do with all of that plywood? It's just empty plywood and OSB-encased volume...

How do you cool or heat a house with a surface of 8,000 square feet?

How do you floor it with anything other than the cheapest carpet and not lose tens of thousands of dollars?

But you've got a point, some of the more worthless wombs out there will gladly pop out a screamer for you if you dazzle them with granite countertops.

>>802008
I wish this were true.

But the Fed will never significantly raise interest rates, not until there is a huge inflationary episode at least, by which point I would rather have a house than worthless paper.

Buying a house can be seen as a massive leveraged bet that the currency debt incurred will be destroyed by inflation.

>>802018

You only made money because you found a Greater Fool to take on your questionable asset, and only because that Greater Fool had access to cheap money.

But instead of cashing out, you're putting that money into an even more questionable asset that has a variable and escalating cost... For what? Granite countertops?

God you housefags are dim. And when crunch time comes, sadly, the government will be bailing out the banks that own your junk-ass debt.

>>802023
>Plywood
Try marble and tile mate. I don't like hardwood flooring.

I am planning on putting a few solar panels on the 1.5 acre lots that I'm getting, and I'm going to test out the Tesla battery for homes.

It's not some McMansion that some asshole contractor threw up to ensnare some newly rich fuckhead.

>But you've got a point, some of the more worthless wombs out there will gladly pop out a screamer for you if you dazzle them with granite countertops.

And boy do they try hard. "Im on birth control so no need for a condom".

>>802025
What makes you think I'm not taking a greater portion of the profits from my house and using it to make some nice expansions to my business you fucktard? Why are you trying your best to be a complete scumbag? What's with all the impotent rage?

>>802024
>But the Fed will never significantly raise interest rates

That's your opinion, and a very shitty one at that.

First rate hikes coming September, with several more to follow in 2016.

It won't have a huge effect in the US because people learned to be more debt shy, but the effects in Canada will be pretty dramatic, even with a 0.25% increase from the Bank of Canada.

BTW, I'm a Canadafag, so all of my rants pertain to local RE.

>>802029
Thank Christ I live in the US. But yeah, Toronto is fucked lol. Raising the rate will only affect new houses purchased you dingus

>What is fixed rate loan

And tbh with you, the only people who are going to be affected by any price change will be the people in the $250K-$850K price range since the $1mm+ never really had the same liquidity and contractors stayed away since there was very little money in flipping

>>802028
>Try marble and tile mate. I don't like hardwood flooring.

You say that as if it were a good thing. Ceramic cracks and is not fashionable and marble erodes and weathers quickly, which exposes you to very expensive replacement costs. Are you Italian? What's with Italians and real estate and ceramic crap? Is it because Italians are not savvy enough for equity and markets?

A renter lets a mortgage slave subsidize them by carrying the burden of maintenance while saving money and investing in a diversified portfolio that outpaces real estate.

I'll say that RE is good for people with terrible fiscal discipline and who would otherwise not be capable of saving and investing. Because paying into a mortgage forces people to save in a way, while building equity and hoping their property will keep going up in value.

But in inflated markets like Canada and Australia, there is little room to grow when the economies are shrinking and real estate is only backed up by cheap lending.

>>802036
>What is fixed rate loan

You're somehow implying that the same loan terms are available to Canadians. At best you can lock into a fixed rate for 10 years, at a much higher lending price.

The reality of the situation is people are taking on $700-900k loans with only a minimal deposit and the lowest variable rate of 2.5-2.7% which they will have to renew in 5 years, most likely at 4-5%, which at that point they won't be able to afford.

And therein we have the recipe for the greatest consumer debt collapse that the Canadian economy will have ever seen. The governments will fight it, but government has only so much control over a jet diving into the ground.

Now imagine that the jet is a Concorde, that's been rec-commissioned for service and is at it's cruise speed of 2.0 Mach, and now imagine that the Canadian housing market is like in the middle isle of the Concorde, on a wheeled cart, and the lane is coated in a graphite lubricant polymer..

>>799323
>renting
>condo

what? You mean an apartment? Because you BUY condos much like coops. I'm sure they rent them some places, but someone at sometime has to buy the condo for you to rent it.

>>802042
Again with the "expensive replacement costs". What makes you think that's even a factor in my budget? If I was worried about maintaining the marble flooring then I shouldn't be buy a house this expensive.

>>802046
Sounds like it sucks to be a Canadian. Move here or stop bitching mate.

>>802048

Well if a house is a disposable consumer good to you, then we shouldn't really be having this discussion in the first place, should we?

I try to get the most mileage out of my dollar, and real estate certainly is not a means to that end.

>>802049
In Canda. And I just told you that I made a 50% profit on my last house. House is not a disposable consumer good, but you don't factor in the hours it takes to vacuum your shitty apartment before renting like I don't factor how much it costs to hire someone to polish my floors. It's a non-issue.

>>799335
in defense of this guy
500k for a house is in places like the boroughs of New York City. Nationwide, prices are closer to $100k-$275.
>interest rates at 10%
again he's right, 4% FHA roughly.
>20% down
More like 3.5% again FHA, 20% Conventional, 0-3% USDA or Veteran Programs
>25 years
Mortgages come in packages of 10, 15, 30 & 40 depending on the lending institution.

That's all. I know this not only because its my profession, but y'know google. so this guy is right to slander OP

>>802052
>And I just told you that I made a 50% profit on my last house.

It's only a profit if you could turn that liquid. And you said you just put that into a higher mortgage, because you were able to find a greater fool.

But soon there will be far fewer fools with cheap credit to go around. Who's going to subsidize your decisions then?

>>802052
>In Canda.

You just told me you're in the US..

>>802060
You're comparing your shitty system (Canadian) to our less shitty system (US). And yes I am in the US.

>Who's going to subsidize your decisions then?
I plan on keeping this house for awhile. I just took advantage of the 2008 crash and now I'm ready to move on. I don't have to worry about selling in the future either since 1.5 acres 2 miles from downtown will always be in high demand.

>>802020
>8000 sqft

That's 4x bigger than most 300k homes around me.

>>802052
>>802048
>>802036
>>802028
>>802020
>>802018
>dick waving on an anonymous image board

I bet you have a 300k starting job from your maths phd too kiddo
I bet you also

>>802064
Not even dick waving, just telling the anti-buying fag he's wrong using person experience backed up with concrete facts. He's just buttmad about the whole "Canadian" thing.


>>802062
My house I just sold was only 3,500sqft. I lived modestly while my I focused resources into the business. Now I'm going to upgrade and take advantage of these low rates. 3.5% interest rate is awesome.

>>802061

>>802061
>You're comparing your shitty system (Canadian) to our less shitty system (US). And yes I am in the US.

But the same mechanics apply. Rates will be rising back to normal, that is to 2007 levels. So real estate will be worth less. I hope you factored that into your new real estate purchase.

>I plan on keeping this house for awhile. I just took advantage of the 2008 crash and now I'm ready to move on.

Good for you for keep cash around and being liquid to respond to a market sell-off. Now if only you shielded yourself the same way for real estate pricing.

>>802066
Agreed to that. I unfortunately can't partake much, I was a fool and went to college. Went to a shitty state college, worked throughout highschool, worked throughout college, got a scholarship to waive tuition, still owed 24k and didn't pay it back until 3 months ago when I turned 26.

I've got 9k to fuck with now but 6 is in stocks, gotta save up an emergency fund and then save up for projects/housing. I wish I had known my life wouldn't really start until 30, which is extra shitty since I've already lost my hair.

Don't stay in school, kids.

>>802067
What makes you think I didn't factor in the past 30 years worth of demographics + proposed zoning into my decision to buy?

The only real estate that will be affected by a higher rate are homes worth less than $900K since that's where the liquidity was during the 2008-now. Million dollar homes remained static in price throughout the whole "crisis" because only the middle and lower class homes were affected.

Even at the peak of 2008, this house was worth 1.08 million.

>>802071
School is really only a viable option for the wealthy since they can focus on learning without worrying about eating or loans. When they graduate they use their parents connections to get them jobs. It's the cycle man.

>>802066

You're taking this a little to personally. You should detach yourself from your ego if you wish to maintain a productive dialogue.

A lot of people did well with real estate if they bought in 2009-2010 and sold off recently and moved away. They didn't make money because they were clever or savvy, quite the opposite.

A renter who put the same money into a diversified portfolio made even more money, is more liquid, has more freedom to move around, has more cost control etc.

So while you got lucky and made an accidental profit because of the abundance of even more people like you horny for a plywood monster, you're now carrying an even larger debt into a future of guaranteed rising rates.

You didn't do as well as you thought you did, and you will only realize this the further forward you move.

If real estate was such a sure thing, than every idiot would be a millionaire. Truth is, the middle class got wiped out on real estate and now Boomers are going into retirement with more debt than ever.

Real estate serves only to impoverish.

Never buy real estate for investing, EVER.

>>802078
>Put money in a diversified portfolio
Maybe after 2011? You forgot about that major index dump. And what makes you think I didn't start funneling money into index funds the second they announced QE? Not everyone is so one-tracked minded.

>>802075
>What makes you think I didn't factor in the past 30 years worth of demographics + proposed zoning into my decision to buy?

Because you didn't, and neither did anyone else.

>The only real estate that will be affected by a higher rate are homes worth less than $900K since that's where the liquidity was during the 2008-now.

And yet the first sectors of the RE market that tumble down in price historically consistently are the higher end and custom homes.

>Even at the peak of 2008, this house was worth 1.08 million.

Keep telling yourself that. It's only worth as much as the mortgage someone wants to maintain. Unless you live next to a celebrity or it has some special appeal. Otherwise it's a plywood box, and a big liability for heating/cooling at that size and depending on the age, it will be entering into decay and require escalating upkeep costs.

>>802083
I did, I have a few friends in the housing and zoning board so I know what the future plans for my area are and I know that the city is about to pump quite a bit of money into the surrounding area to kick out any of the remaining poor. Gentrification is awesome.

>And yet the first sectors of the RE market that tumble down in price historically consistently are the higher end and custom homes.

Source?

>>802080

Well again, it seems like your house purchase was just a small distraction for you and you're operating with cash levels that give you significant exposure to everything of significance.

So, why are we having this discussion?

Direct real estate investing is still a terrible idea, and I'm surprised, that you, as savvy an investor as you claim to be, have not been loading up into RE via other indirect means like REITs etc.

Are you buy any chance just fucking with us and making all of this up as you go?

>>802086

Oh, now you know the future too. This is great.

I think our interaction has run it's course, I'll stick around in this thread to talk to some others if they show up.

>>802091
>Are you buy any chance just fucking with us and making all of this up as you go?

No, I'm just not retarded. If I wanted to live in a comparable sized + quality apartment I would have to pay 7K a month anyways. Might as well be towards a mortgage.

>Oh, now you know the future too. This is great.

I don't know how city planning works in Canada, but it takes years to get everything approved here and the council decides how everything goes (and of course they're sponsored by local business and HOA groups) and they're purpose is to act in the benefit of the city.

Things like declaring the low-income apartments part of the flood plains, or changing to zoning to remove auto repair shops is how they increase the value of the land, and therefore my home.

Listen, I understand you have no experience with buying homes and contributing factors like future zoning probably never entered your mind but please don't try to pass of your ignorance as fact.

>>799309


What? This is so exaggerated. Not too mention houses are cheaper in some places.

How is paying $1000 rent better than owning a $250,000 home, with a %3.00 fixed interest mortgage?

>>802097
It's not.

>>802093
Jabroni you just got #told

>>802101

Sure. There's a whole cohort of these types in Toronto.

They're all so clever because they took on mortgages at historically low rates.

Millionaires in the making.

All it takes to become a millionaire these days, is do a cash withdrawal on your credit card for $10,000, apply for a mortgage and find any plywood and stucco mansion on a plot of land, and presto, guaranteed money making stream, guaranteed 100% capital appreciation.

Why isn't everyone becoming a millionaire? Are all people stupid?

Surely, Warren Buffet made a fortune flipping homes. There's even a reality TV show that instructs the people who drive minivans with fat kids how to become millionaires by flipping homes.

They're all so clever.

>>802110
>Toronto
Found your problem. And high-risk loans are no longer approved. Do you not know anything about the new legislation passed in the wake of 2008?

Lenders are FORBIDDEN to give anyone a loan who's payments exceed 43% or the lender CAN BE SUED if the loan goes under by the person taking out the loan.

So, no, unless you can prove that you have more than an extra $6,500 lying around each month you cannot own a million dollar home.

>>802119
>Exceed 43% of their debt-to-income ratio.

>>802119

You know they just give the borrower a COMPLETELY SEPARATE AND NOT AT ALL RELATED TO THE MORTGAGE NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK loan for whatever downpayment puts them under 43%, right?

Yes, they are doing this. Want to buy some tulips?

>>802119

You didn't find the problem you arrogant. He informed you of the problem.

>>802135
>Implying those loans will pass a simple QM test.
>Implying they won't get their asses sued if they approve and the loan gets under.

http://www.consumerfinance.gov/regulations/ability-to-repay-and-qualified-mortgage-standards-under-the-truth-in-lending-act-regulation-z/

Read up. They can technically give out the loan but if it defaults then the courts have to rule in favor of the person who took out the loan, absolving them of guilt and the secondary market isn't going to touch a failed QM loan (IE Fannie Mae).

>>802144
What problem?

>>802135
And the down payment has nothing to do with the 43% my friend. It has to do with the monthly payments.

OP... how much would it cost to rent the same home? I have no idea, but lets just say $2000 a month.

20 years later, you will have payed your landlords $500,000. What do you have to show for it? You have nothing. While your smarter anon next door neighbor owns his house and now can live for free.

>>802162
Simple, you rent out four neighboring houses each for 2000 a month and sublease for 2500. Now housing is free :^)

>>802162
Pretty much this.
>pay rent
>be 60 years old
>own no property

Or
>buy house
>be 60 years old
>can sell house for X00,000 dollars and retire to Florida or some shit

>>802162
b-bbb-but anon, of that $500K you might lose 10-15% if theres a housing crash as oppose to it all in rent!

>>802169
You are losing 100% of your money if you are renting.

>>802162

When you rent, you have to rent cheap, otherwise you're not making any progress.

Renting for $4,000 per month defeats the purpose. Renting is about mobility and liquidity, and only works if you can invest what you save.

>>802171
That's the point.

>>802172
>Rent cheap so your shit can get stolen by niggers or you get stabbed on your way to work.

>>802172
I understand this, but OP was using a 400k house in his argument against owning your own home. It only fair to use the equivalent cost of renting.

>>802172
Where is your response for this btw? Hate when facts gets in the way of opinions?

>>802149
>>802119

>>802178
He doesn't have an argument that can hold footing. Especially here in the USA where the interest rate is 3.0-4.5 depending on credit

>>802168

Or:

>rent
>save
>invest in diversified portfolio yielding 7%
>max out tax-free retirement contributions
>retire to a pool of cash, freedom and a passive income for your decrepit years

The direct real estate alternative:

>load all income into one investment class
>pay interest on large loan for 25 years
>hope that it appreciates 100% (it won't) in fact, there's only way to go for all real estate from this point forward, and that is DOWN
>Retire to debt in worst case
>In best case, retire with a plywood box that yields no cash flow and has steadily rising costs of maintenance and repair as the plywood begins to decay.


No wonder the tail end of the boomers are fucked for retirement. They put all their eggs into one asset basket.

>>802185
>Plywood
>Boomers
>Going DOWN

Go back to /pol/ mate. Surprised you're not a gold bug as well.

For my area, rent costs the same as a mortgage (+taxes and HOA fees) on 20year 3% fixed APR... So I bought.

>>802171

That all depends on the rent versus mortgage costs which is regional.

In bubble markets like Vancouver, Toronto and Australia, the case for renting is much more compelling.

>>802149

You quote a post about Toronto then link to US legislation in the resulting discussion? Are you daft?

>>802190
Any now you have equity instead of nothing.

>>802188
He's actually right though. You >>out

>>802191
Well I do have the luxury of still living with my parents at 23. By the time I am 28 I will be able to pay cash for my own home (aiming for about 150k-200k). I dont plan to get a mortgage.

>>802188

>Real estate goes up when lending costs goes up

I thought you had the future figured out for the next 25 years, and fully hedged all your assets?

Why aren't you playing the lottery, you've got the winning numbers matey..

>>802199
Real estate slows down for the market with the most liquidity, which is the under $900k.

Be as dismissive as you like. It's all you have going for you.

>>802198

Do you need a house though? Think of housing more like a commodity. It serves a particular purpose, and that is raising a family with kids with a yard for healthy development.

Short of that, you're better off putting that money to work in the markets.

If you absolutely insist on real estate, forget direct RE purchases, you can get exposure to RE in many different ways. Look up real estate investment trusts REITs. They pay a nice fat distribution regularly.

And they're smart and aggressive, unlike the average home buyer.

>>802198
>Paying cash for a $150K-$200K home
Why? You'll be trying up all of your money + a house in that price range will most likely be in a poorer neighborhood which will have low quality schools. So terrible idea to raise a family there.

Why would you sink all of your money into one asset which most likely won't go anywhere. (poor neighborhoods RARELY appreciate).

>>802208

Right... The 900k+ home market buyers are strictly cash buyers? They're immune to lending prices?

BTW, $900k is the regular price for a detached home in Toronto, for middle class people. Because loans are cheap.

Those people are even more vulnerable to rate hikes because they're leveraged so heavily, their incomes so disproportionately consumed by housing costs, that price range will be the first to fall.

But listen, you make your bets where you think, you've got a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs apparently, so this house thing for a high roller like yourself is just a child's plaything. No point getting emotional about it.

>>802221
Really now? That inflated? Also my examples are here in the US not abroad. You guys are about to learn a lesson that California learned in 2008...

900K homes here are much more difficult to get into for the average American because you have to demonstrate the income to afford the loan. 2008 brought about a lot of regulations that Canada should have adopted. But if what you're saying is right, owning a home in Canada is like owning a home in Greece. Nothing good is going to come of it this year. lol

>>799309
>I could move from place to place and city to city, even country to country whenever I wanted without worrying about selling a house first.

This is the reason why I havent bought an apartment myself.
I have changed my job twice in the past 5 years, and whenever I did I moved so that I live near my office and I can walk there.
It also spiced up my life nicely, at first I was going to the gym that was very near, then after moving I started going to the now near swimming pool, and in my current apartment I am very close to a part where I can run every morning without too many people bothering me.

>>802221
>>802226
And to follow up, a lot of the homes here are inflated in price because contracting companies scoop up a property in a decent location for $300K and remodel it for another $40K and resell it for $400K. It's an artificial market for sure, but only in those price ranges.

Contractors stay the hell away from $800K+ homes because the margin of profit is so low and the wealthy here just tear down the previous house and build their own.

>>802198

Literally stupid

Find an apartment to fucking rent, get a wife that you actually love, you'll be 28 so you should be experienced enough to not get a gold digger

Make sure you and your wife make the same amount of $ or close to equal

Then, find a cheap apartment, close to your parents, and rent it, so you can have sex and whatnot, find the CHEAPEST possible, in a good neighbourhood, with no kids and all those distractions

Rent the apartment for a term of 3 years, so you can move by 31

Pay like $500 a month, or $750 max

That means each year you only have to pay like $12,000 for living

That is $36,000 over 3 years, ok?

You have $200k + your wifes savings, hopefully she has $200k also or more (start looking for a wife now, or dating some girl that knows how to save)

Then put both your $200ks in a diversified portfolio that yields like 5-10% a year, and just leave it there

Work from when you're 28 --- 31, and each of you save your $50k a year or whatever you end up making, I'll use 50k as that's average.

So each of you will have another $150k, which means $300k + $400k, in cash, cash you can spend right?

Minus your $36k living costs from 28 --- 31, so $666k. (oops, I did not plan this number)

Also your money from the portfolio, will be 7.5% lets say, so it becomes $430,000 first year when you're 29, then $462,250, when 30, then 31 it's $496,918.75.

Basically then you have in liquid cash, $666k + $97k, so $763k.

Then you can move away from your parents, to a nice state/country with GOOD education, in a RICH neighbourhood, or someplace like the future Silicon valley, a place where your kids will make money no matter what and be among other rich kids.

RENT your house, pay like $3,000 - $4,000 a month, who cares, you've got fucking $763k in cash, and you're making $100k a year, probably $125k by then after raises and such

See?

Don't buy a house and put down a large lump sump, spend as little as you can on housing, spend the rest on INVESTING.

>>802226
>900K homes here are much more difficult to get into for the average American because you have to demonstrate the income to afford the loan.

But you're telling me that you can get 3% fixed rate loans in America for 10 YEARS. Those are even better terms than here in Canada, so money in the USA, is EVEN cheaper than in Canada, meaning it's even easier to qualify for that mortgage than it is here and even cheaper to carry a $900,000 loan...

Holy shit, I thought it was scary down here, you guys are quickly getting back to the 2008 frenzy levels it seems.

How the hell are banks that guarantee 10-year loans at 3% going to survive a rate hike? That's another lending crisis in the making.. Now of course the Fed won't plunge the whole house of cards into anarchy, but they've all but announced a steady increase in rates beginning in September.

>>799323
10% isnt that steep when adjusted for inflation and considering we are all young men here, and we wont get the best possible offers.
Especially since most people dont declare all of their income, and thus cant prove that they have a reliable high income.

>>802238
They guarantee it with a high monthly payment and you have to prove your income is great enough to quality for it.

If you took out a 10 year 3% fixed rate mortgage for $900K then your monthly payment is going to be around $9K per month. So in order to qualify for this loan you need to be making enough so that after all of your bills are payed, $9k is less that 43% of your monthly income. IE: You're making $25K a month.

Unless you meet that standard, banks will be legally unable to give you a loan.

>>799331
>You're forgetting the fact that rent will increase, every single year, forever, guaranteed.

I've been renting apartments for the last 8 years and I've never had my rent increase even once.
I always paid what I settled for, and I often got good deals for refreshing paint or fixing the floor or some such, basically tasks that I can do myself and wont cost me much instead of part of the rent for X months.

OP here

I gave 10%, and did not include other things like maintenance, utilities and all that

That is why I just put it as 10%, which is actually, LOW, because there is a shit tonne of stuff you have to replace over 10 fucking years

SOmeone gave an example of roof, floors, paint, all that shit

My house is like 3200 SQ FT (4 people)

So yeeah, my 10% is a FINE number, for an all in one calculation

Fucking retards

own < rent

>>802248
Most rents go down if youre paying on time or early. They like renters to be more like you so they want to keep you. They only increase the rates for high risk renters.

>>802250
If your credit is so shitty that your rate is 10% then you should not be buying a home.

>>802253

Holy shit, I added in all the costs, 3-5% for mortgage + 5% for maintenance costs on your house for 25 fucking years, which is actually MORE than 5%

Get it?

>>802245
>They guarantee it with a high monthly payment and you have to prove your income is great enough to quality for it.

Canadian banks scrutinize applications even more, as the regulatory demands are even higher here.

You guys are in trouble as well I'm afraid.

>>802257
>Canadian banks scrutinize applications even more, as the regulatory demands are even higher here

lolwut I was approved for 1.2 mil on a 50k salary in Canada

>>802260

For how many years, do you have a wife, do you have a business?

What did you put up as your collateral?

Do you get to keep 50k out of that 50k a year?

lmfao

What was your downpayment?

>>802254
No, because you're taking 5% of the sum of your house as a maintenance cost which is astronomical. WTF are you doing to your home to require that much fixing?

>>802260

Jesus.

How much down?

>>802265
>>802261
He was most likely pre-approved, but not actually approved.

>>802257

OP here

I'm in Canada, west side Hamilton Ontario, on the mountain, near garth and stone church lol

Yeeah canada is fucked

My parents should sell their house now and make whatever they can

>>802262

a $500k house requires a lot of work to keep it looking like a $500k home

Lawn maintenance, driveway resealing, new deck every few years, new sod every few years, new roof every 10 years, new flooring, refacing the tiles in your rooms, painting every few years, new furniture, new windows, replacing cracked windows, power washing home, don't forget upgrading electrical outlets, new insulation, jesus I could keep going, these are all things YOU HAVE TO DO to keep your value up and your home in top shape.

I've only lived in this house for 10 years so far and we've done A LOT of this already.

>>802245
>Unless you meet that standard, banks will be legally unable to give you a loan.

I find it hard to believe that there are federal controls on lending like this, in America. Are you sure about?

The often touted cliche around here is that our Canadian banks are much more reserved and strict in their lending practices. But it seems like they're handing out money and letting people's pet cat undersign for their mortgages.

>>802270
CFPB guidelines are extremely clear on toxic loan lending. If you fail the QM test (which all home loans are required to take) then you're knowingly giving out a toxic loan.

Since most lenders process the loan then sell it on the secondary market (Fannie Mae), with a failed QM test Fannie Mae will reject the loan, leaving you with all that lovely liability. You better hope and pray they make their payments or you open yourself up to a lawsuit where you lose 100% of the time.

>>802271

Brb, buying a nice 300k property in upstate NY with a ton of land next to mostly White people.

>>799309
Owning is far better, but the key is not to buy these poorly constructed and overprices suburban barbie dream homes like you describe.

buy within your limits, if you have 100k cash in hand go for a house closer to that range, maybe 200-300k at the very most.
its less of an investment and markets rising means you end up making more money in the end than you would paying off a million dollar loan for 40 years.
even better is to take that 100k to somewhere where land/housing is cheap, buy up a bunch of property for low cost then rent most of it out to help pay it off.

renting is definitely better short term but its never a great permanent solution. I'd much rather save what I have to buy some cheap property, improve it, then either sell or rent it out for a higher price while I pick up property elsewhere and use the old one as collateral.

>>802284
If that woman divorces the dad, who keeps the debt?

>>802286

interesting thought anon, damn...

wouldn't it be 50/50?

>>802291
Apparently only one party keeps the loan, even if it was a joint loan or a mortgage on a house you share.
It simply goes to the person who signed it, as the bank makes a contract with one person, rather than a family.

>>802293
When you're married and you take out a loan together then both of your names are there as a borrower and co-borrower.

During a divorce, assets are typically liquidated and divided accordingly.

>>802293
>>802291
This is how I know you guys are still in your early twenties at best.

>>802301

This is how I know you're probably taking free money from the gov on our tax dollars sitting on 4chan arguing about everything and thinking you're so right

"at best"

>>802307
:^)

>>802301
>>802295
But you are objectively wrong, 20s-at-best guy.
If you buy a house with a loan, and you settle to keep the house, your ex wife may choose to not pay her share of the loan.
Why would she? The worst thing that could happen if she doesnt pay is that her ex husband loses his house.

Literally first result on google.
http://banking.about.com/od/loans/a/Divorce-Split-Loans.htm

>>802219
>terrible neighborhood
I already own the land its out in the country. It will be a new modular home (that is not a trailer) I hate people and have no desire to live in a "neighborhood".

>why would you sink all of your money into one asset
I want a place to live that is my own. A home is not just an investment, its something you need. If you rent you can't modify the home. You are at the landlord's mercy

>>802232
You are implying guaranteed returns. I have all of my savings in stocks and mutual funds and I have made very little. You are probably about to call me a retard because I can't make it big in the stock market. Maybe I am, but at least I will have home ownership. To me that is the biggest achomplishment.

>>802329
Yes, but it fucks both of your credit. So if either one of you stops paying, both of you suffer. After a divorce the loan doesn't magically become one persons burden .

Which is why, typically, most divorced couples LIQUIDATE (IE: sell the property) and the money is then divided. Yes, your spouse can choose to not sell while the divorce is happening and yes they can be a cunt and not help pay but that doesn't matter to the lender. Since two names are on the loan, one of you has to pay if the other refuses to.

Sorry about your lack of reading comprehension though.

>>799323
>It will always go up, forever. It's called inflation.
In the loan, the inflation is accounted for since the get go and basically is part of the interest rate you pay. Do you think banks would forget that?

>>802597
Mean for
>>799331

>>802230
Same here, in field where jobs are very spread out domt ser myself staying in one place long enough to buy

Houses are for people who want to get married and have a big family in a safe, calm, quiet area.

But if you don't want any of that, why not just live with your parents? I do that and I'm rich as fuck!

>>803491
Living at home is actually the norm in Asian cultures for the youngest member of the family. That way they take care of the older generation and they help you with your kids.

It's actually a great model.

Buying a house, from a financial standpoint, is buying a luxury. Same as buying a big TV, a car, etc. If you can afford to buy it outright, then go for it, its nice to have one. If you want to justify purchasing one by saying its a smart investment... Well, enjoy following in the footsteps of the average American homeowner, as it seems 95% of this thread are. Keep telling yourself its a great idea when its been laid out time and time again, clearly, mathematically shown to be a terrible, terrible idea for the average person.

But ya know, sign up to the standard over simplified flawed homeowner logic of the following: >>802168 >>802171
And buy yourself a house today! Why would you wait?! Its a limited time offer, get it now or regret it forever! Its clearly been working out GREEEAAAT for the average american. Ya know, Warren Buffet did it, so you should too. Alternatively, dont take advice on the biggest financial decision you'll ever make in your life from a thread filled with... Well, come on its 4chan. Id recommend educating yourself from a more reliable resource, then a bunch of random people on the internet. For such a huge life decision, you damn well best be a fucking expert on the subject.

>>803507
than*

>>803501
it's the norm in literally every culture except Clapistan, where boomers are desperate for a sustained housing market so they need to shame twenty somethings into becoming house poor for a $300000 shitpile made of toothpicks and napkins

I need some advice on endowments if anyone could shed some light. My mother passed away a in 2011 from MS, but my Dad and mum had "separated" a number of years before that (and by separated I mean he had a girlfriend for years that no one knew about and now he lives with her on the other side of the country). Anyway, long story short, he is an insufferable, money hungry, selfish cunt of a man who manipulated my helpless mother for his own financial gain.

There was an endowement policy which matured on the 28th of June 2015 and it was in my dads name. My mother and father both paid the endowement, albeit my mother a bit more but thats where the manipulation comes into play. When my mother passed, naturally me being the only child, all of her money/assessts would be passed to me upon her passing but in the case of the endowement, because it is in my fathers name I have no legal right to it, only a moral right, but morality isnt in this mans vocabulary. He doesnt have the heart to say "Na, I'm keeping it for me and my new Mrs", but he will try his hardest to make up some excuse to not give me half.

Anyway, I asked him about it and all I managed to get out of him was that it matured on the 28th of June, but he said its all tied up in the building society and its not as easy as taking it out. Is this total bullshit or is this a possibility?

Owning a home serves a specific purpose - and that is to have a stable location to live in. If you purchase a home for long term investment, you're not very intelligent. People have made money from the increased value of their home over time, but this was the result of economic factors out of their control. Not because they were intelligent investors. The same can be said for those who lost everything in the 2008 collapse. They were also not intelligent investors.

Buying a house is a bad "investment" because you can do absolutely nothing with it. Your money is locked up in the asset, and you are not able to exit your position easily without incurring some hefty fees associated with a property sale.

Over the course of a 25 year mortgage, you will pay roughly double the dollar amount of the purchase price. If the home was $1 million, you'll have paid $2 million at the end of 25 years.

A person with some financial background will tell you that this is a shit deal. If you are financially competent, you can invest that money over 25 years, and earn a lot more. You are also able to exit your position when the economy turns sour, or better yet, short your position and capitalize on a recession.

Overall, most rich people do not own their home. Excluding famous rich people who buy as a public status symbol, rich people who just work their normal jobs often rent a home, and put their cash to better use. Their time and money is better spent investing that cash with greater gains vs dealing with property issues like insurance premiums, potential disasters and loss of home, repairs or bad rental tenants.

In the last year alone, I gained 25% off my investment of $500,000. Money that was better used in moderate risk investments during a bull market, compared to a slow moving real estate market with 10-15 year cycles.

>>799309

I know Amerilards never consider it, but its actualy possible to only buy things when you can afford it.

Which means no interest.

>muh credit score

>>803580
>buying a house cash only
>shiggggyydiggii

>>803580
Thats what I said! >>803507
But its blasphemy! Obviously... >>803596
'murica.

>>799309

>implying you can't write off interest

Not sure why this retarded thread didn't end within three posts, don't feel like reading it to find out since I know that the answer is /biz/ is full of poorfags and like ten homeowners.

Buy a home today and you can probably expect to pay a rent at about 1% and up (in Sweden at least).

If you want to get out of the stock market you can ammortize your mortgage and if you want to get in to the stock market you can loan with your house/property as a security. Buying a house also tends to outperform a normal savings account in terms of rising long-term prices on houses since forever (this is also adjusted for inflation).

Last of all, don't you want to own the place you live at sooner or later? You want as few people as possible to answer to the older you get (this means bosses, landlords etc)

>>803662
>Last of all, don't you want to own the place you live at sooner or later?
If for some reason I want to stop traveling forever then sure, Id buy a house... Outright.

>You want as few people as possible to answer to the older you get (this means bosses, landlords etc)
This confused me. I pay my landlord to provide me with a service... My landlord answers to me, not the other way around... Yes? If my heater breaks, I call my landlord and he gets it fixed... If I need a new refrigerator, I call my landlord and get it replaced. I got a leaky pipe I call my damned landlord... I mean, but definition of the word, sure, but... In reality, I dont *pay* someone to answer to them, obviously... I dunno what kinda shit landlords you've had to deal with in the past, but thats never been my experience.

>>799347
>Neighbour spent like $150k to get a pool and finish off all the concrete and driveway
To do what, swim two months out of the year?

>>803576

Yeah exactly, the thing is every single god damn fucker thinks buying a house is an investment, so they go do all this homework, then dump half a mill into it, and end up spending double, just to fucking say they have an asset of 500k

Then they think an asset is something they have, but its not, its a liability because of all the shit you have to keep doing to maintain it

People are fucking retarded if they think a home is an asset, and especially if they have a mortgage on it.

>>803580

LOL (im canadian, but yeah)

>>803507

kek, you should do shows on why buying a house is retarded XD

>>803662

Retard

Did you not read any of this entire 200 reply thread?

>>803690

Idiots man, idiots, when you rent a house and something goes bad, its not your problem, its the landlords, but if you own a house, then its all your problem

Man I agree with you, if I want to buy a house, buy it outright, lol

>>804433

Haha, nah they swim in the winter too, their pool is heated apparently, and they're building a deck over it, with a glass floor on the deck, so you can see underneath into the pool and the pool gets sunlight...

I know, crazy right?!

You neets here are forgetting that people need some sort of housing other than their parents basement. Forget the "investing" aspect and try to evaluate how much it will actually cost to own, plus the personal motivations for owning a home. Start by checking out the own vs rent calculator. Every market is different so you need to plug your numbers, one of which is the years you plan to stay there for. I heard on average if you stay there for at least 4 years, it is better to own a comparable living space vs renting it. Yes homes take maintenance and taxes and interest on the loan, which can all be cheaper than renting and you end up with equity.

Now consider personal reasons. You want a place that you feel you own. No landlord can tell you to move, and you can modify the house how you want to. While that may be a luxury, it is easily attainable and very satisfying for many people who have the means.

Now comes the more

>>804524

no one buys their house... millionaires and billionaires are still not paying a 100% down payment for a mortgage because of a reason

As an owner you assume all risks and black swan events as a renter you just pay cash.

Your argument is based on comparing obtaining a $400,000 mortgage on a $500,000 house vs renting it for $1,000 a month, you'll never be able to rent that much house for that little. You got a lot wrong about home ownership in general, but that was your biggest fuckup.

>>799331
>rent will always increase

not if we close the borders

I'm paying right around $1000/month mortgage. The people three doors down are renting their identical unit (a townhouse) for $1600/month. That's not unusual, at least around here.

I also get to write off my mortgage insurance which I believe comes to a tax savings of around $2400 (I could look it up but it's been over $2000 anyway, so basically 2 mortgage payments come back to me on tax day).

A lot of home investors got burned with the housing market crash and they're passing that cost off to the renters, who could pay much less per month on the same unit if they could buy it.

I'm looking to pay off my mortgage entirely in a couple of years, I think. Once I have the investment money (stocks and cash) to buy out the principle, I'm gonna do it. From then on I will be completely debt free and my paychecks will be crazy money from then on, which I can use to rapidly rebuild my investments.

This is a great time to buy, at least in America, because you're not going to see these interest rates this low again. I would take a hard look at house prices around you (see: Zillow) and see if it would really cost you more to buy or not.

The only way it could cost you more is if you live in an area where housing prices have shot up within the last 10 years. Given the housing market crash, I don't think there are many places like that.

Everywhere else is a good place to buy.

>>804524
lol, +1, and I cant take credit. I was just spewing crap Ive read in personal finance books.
>>804615
And... That magical reason is... A secret then? My multimillionaire father didnt buy his houses outright to build credit, but quit doing that years ago. He buys them outright now. But its a skewed source sortta since hes in the business of buying/sellin them. Please show me a billionaire who buys a 200k house on credit. Sources man, facts, anything. Not just some random (obviously bias) spewed opinion.

>>804615
1/4 offers in my area are for all cash. This is homes around 1 million dollars.

I'm on the fence too about purchasing a home here in SoCal. After doing the analysis, couldn't one argue that this country's tax code is designed for those who own a home? For example, the tax benefits compared to renting, the write offs for paying the property tax (at least here in Cali)?

>>799360
renting property you own outright is pretty sweet.

The problem is getting there.

>>801915
>When you rent, you're just paying off the homeowner's mortgage (read: building their equity), covering the property taxes, covering all insurance on the property, and the homeowner's profit on top of that.

Unless the market rate is below all of those costs combined. You don't buy a house, add up those costs, then slap on an extra hundred in profit and post the listing on craigslist. You have to go by the market rate, which in many places means a month-on-month loss for the owner.

It always cracks me up when buyfags laugh at renters because they're throwing their money away when their profits depend on renting.

>>801373
>fucking gold digging bitch, go fuck yourself, hopefully you get some maggots in your pussy and you're forced to stay in a hospital room, then see how much even the janitors wanna fuck you, they'd rather fuck the dead bodies in the mortuary in the basement.

>this much projection

>>801915
>Look! Yet another anti-homeownership thread! How very refreshing!
Weird how those just keep popping up all over the place for zero reason.

OP here

Jesus fuck this thread is still alive?!

Fuck!

Home buyers that buy with a mortgage are retards

That's it

End of story, no questions

Renters that can't afford to buy outright, are the smartest

Ayyyy

Rent for life, still pay less

Mortgage for life, suffer and become childless

>>806629

>>799309
>10% per year interest on a mortgage
>The Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Fifteen
Wow, it's like neoliberal economics never happened. Something like 3-4% is more realistic. Also,

>buying a $500,000 house
>complaining about the down payment

Unless you live in Australia or some other third world country you should not be paying that much for a house. In the midwest a $130,000 house will look like a mansion, and even California you can just get a house in the burbs for reasonable.

>>806664
I live in Florida, for a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo about 1,200 sq ft, you'll be looking at about $250k. You want a 3 bedroom house? Closer to $300k to $500k. Anything even remotely close to a mansion is $1 million+. My boss just built a $3 million place and it wasn't even that impressive, the and alone was just over $1 million for a quarter acre.

>>806671
>$250k
Much more reasonable than OP for an initial house price.

Renting is not so cheap everywhere in the world. I would like to think I would be successful enough to afford to buy a fucking house anyway you dicks!

>>806673
Yeah but that gets you a okay sized house in a shit neighborhood. I'm all for owning, but Florida is expensive as fuck to live in. Land is very overpriced here.

No clue where OP pulled those numbers from, but (and I'm sure this was covered already) after 20% down payment, you finance $400k for 30 years at say 4.5% APR, your payments are about $2,030 a month, so $24,000 a year, not almost $45k like he claims.

Yes, you pay a shit load in interest, but that doesn't account for extra payments toward principal. So that $500k house will end up costing you about $830k... but after 30 years, you can sell it and get probably $600k+ for it.

Sure beats renting a place for 30 years and throwing away over $500k and having zero when you move. In most places, mortgage payments are lower than rent anyway.

Buying condo is master race.

>Not having to take care of snow and various other shit
>Building rules are generally no faggot loud kids, no vile animals, etc
>24/7 security in most
>is visually appealing
>Costs quite a bit less than house

Enjoy your 25 year liability, housecucks!

>>806686
Most of those gated condo communities also say:
- No pets over 25 pounds (restricted breeds)
- No commercial trucks (sometimes no trucks at all)
- No ATV or recreational vehicles
- Very strict rules about your garbage cans, getting fined if you don't pull them in on time.
- HOA fees are expensive as fuck for some places.

The pros don't outweigh the cons with gated communities. If you are 50+ and retiring, sure... go for it. But if you wanna have any kind of fun, parties or whatever, forget it. Too many rules and restrictions for a place that you "own".

>>806692
>- No pets over 25 pounds (restricted breeds)
Good...? I don't want loud as fuck disgusting animals walking anywhere near where I live.
>- No commercial trucks (sometimes no trucks at all)
Good, trucks are for rednecks and cuckolds.
>- No ATV or recreational vehicles
Good, they make a fuckton of noise(are those fuckers revving them at 11 pm on purpose outside my window?? and every user of those kinds of vehicles eventually dies from a collision because no safety.
>- Very strict rules about your garbage cans, getting fined if you don't pull them in on time.
Good. Brings up the general aesthetic of the area when everything follows a certain schedule and flow.
>- HOA fees are expensive as fuck for some places.
True, which is unfortunate but bearable.

Those are only additional pros.

>>806700
I agree with all those points actually, but my biggest gripe is the yards. You are usually within 10 feet of your neighbor. I need more privacy than that. If I'm paying $500+ a quarter, I want more freedom and space. Gated communities do nothing to keep out criminals, if they want in, they are getting in. Security is usually minimal at best.

To each their own though.

>>806702
>You are usually within 10 feet of your neighbor

Huh? Aren't condos just apartments that you can own?

They don't usually have backyards, only a balcony.

>>806700


You sound like a lonely neckbeard

>>806706
I'm retarded, I'm thinking town homes. Yes, condos are upscale apartments basically.

>>806707
Why do I sound like a lonely neckbeard if i want to live in peace and quiet?

I regularly get woken up by dogs barking, faggots on their motorcycles speeding up and down the street at later than 1am, drunk faggots walking around and yelling at night, etc.

I don't use any of these things, and they disturb me. So why would I live with them?

>>806702
>Gated communities do nothing to keep out criminals, if they want in, they are getting in. Security is usually minimal at best.

>Security seems a nigger walking onto expensive property
>Clearly doesn't live here, has never seen him before
>Calls the police
>Nigger is removed

Sounds sufficient for me.

>>806723

Security would need to get off their ass to see somebody in the place. I've got a friend who works security and all they do is watch youtube and play games all day while pressing a button to let people in. They occasionally ride around in a golf cart, but they half ass it. It's a good comfy job for slackers.

>>806629
you were such a faggot you messed up /biz/ even more goddamn how many dicks do you suck at once?

>>806702
you forget niggers are lazy. yes gates keep out criminals. communities with patrols do better.

>>806724
>It's a good comfy job for slackers.

Company I work for had security guards b/c their yard is huge and couldn't be fenced, so shit was constantly ripped off.

Hired a security guard through a company. Didn't help. Found out the guy was just sleeping in his car for the shift. Changed companies. Didn't help. Found out the guy would leave after an hour and usually come back with a pickup full of garbage to dump in our dumpster. Changed companies. Didn't help. Guy would sit in his car watching TV for the whole shift.

Eventually we got rid of them all and used the savings to install cameras, motion sensors and laser tripwires.

The frequency of thefts has gone from weekly to maybe twice a year.

Security guards are useless.

>>806796
In their defense, those companies are hiring unskilled people to sit in one place and do literally nothing for eight hours unsupervised. Some guards (flex officers) have to work back to back shifts at different sites at irregular hours ensuring poor quality of work. All of this at barely above minimum-wage mind you.

Unless the guard is given shit to do or has a system in place to work with and has motivation to keep his job, they're going to goof off.

>>806686

>Condo
>Escalating maintenance fees that dwarf mortgage payments in a few years

>>801375

Uh, what. You can't OWN an apartment. How would that even work?

>>806796
I would do honest security guard work if they gave me a two-way radio or bodycam, which not only inceases my safety but gives me motivation to work

if they pay minimum wage and don't give people equipment no shit people are gonna slack off

>>806941
>You can't OWN an apartment.
You sound pretty dumb m8. You can in fact purchase a portion of a building (which one might call an apartment)

They also call them condominiums

>>802268
>Lawn maintenance,
Can do yourself. Costs 2€ of fuel per mow.

>driveway resealing,

My driveway isn't even sealed to begin with. Why would you do that.

>new deck every few years,

Only if your deck is made of wood.

>new sod every few years,
Only if you keep ruining it by walking on it.

>new roof every 10 years,
WHAT. The roof on my house probably hasn't been changed for 50 years and it's good as new.
Only maintenance required is to replace the tiles whenever a really big hailstorm comes by and breaks one or two. (Once every 3-4 years.)
What the fuck. A new roof every 10 years.
Are you making them out of breadloaf or something?

>new flooring,
What are you doing to your floor that you need to change it regularly?

>refacing the tiles in your rooms,
This the only point you have, mold forming between bathroom tiles is disgusting and if quality sealant wasn't used the first time around, there's nothing you can do to stop it from coming back every time you kill it.
If you use quality materials you should only need to do this once.

>painting every few years,
Alright, 250€ worth of paint every 3 to 5 years, assuming you need to repaint every room.

>new furniture,
Why? Unless you're a nigger and kick your furniture around why do you need to replace it regularly?
I've had my wardrobe for 15 years and it went through several relocations. It's still as good as new, a few scratches here and there is all.

>new windows,
Something you only need to do once and only if the house didn't already have quality windows.

>replacing cracked windows,
How the fuck do your windows get cracked?

>power washing home,
kek.

>upgrading electrical outlets,
Implying electrical outlets need to be "upgraded".
What are you, running a steel forgery in your basement?

>new insulation,
Which is again, a once in a lifetime expense.

Basically a third of these things cost 10 cents to do, another third is useless, and the other third is a once in a lifetime expense.

>>807095

I don't think you've ever owned a house. Maintenance is something to take seriously. Things break all the time -- you either get insurance or the thousands add up quickly.

>>802266
This is true. For obvious reasons I never went through with a million dollar loan.

>>802261
>>802265
Would have been 5% down. No business. Wife made the same as me at that time. We ended up buying a 120k condo with 75% down. People at the bank couldn't fathom not spending at least half a mil on a house since we could get the mortgage.

>>799309
where I live, europoor to be exact, you can do the exact same thing, but you can also move to the country side and by 250 000 cash nice 2-3 story house with 5 acres of land and never pay anything but the goverment taxes...

>>802268
I'm off Greenhill on the east end by Stoney Creek. Housing is still fairly affordable with GTA access here. That will change in the next couple years though. Rented for a couple years on Upper Sherman and Stone Church. Decent area but prices are stupid.

>>807146

Funnily enough, I do own my house.

It's just it isn't a box of wood put together with glue and staples, and it doesn't break down all the time for no goddamn reason.