/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>77016
Aristotle lived like 2500 years ago though

>>77072
argumentum ad novellum, disregarded

well they meet the criteria better than the us dollar does. noob.

>>77105
The dollar isn't intrinsically valuable, either.

>>77016
Even if it isn't money it's still an investment. Also all currency is dependent on some form of infrastructure. There's no such thing as completely safe intrinsically valuable money. Except maybe gold and silver, but they aren't really practical.

>>77134
Both USD and XYZcoin meet four criteria, but are not intrinsically valuable.

>>77177
correct but XYZcoin is more durable, divisible, and portable than any paper currency

>>77176
>Even if it isn't money it's still an investment.
Red herring.
>Also all currency is dependent on some form of infrastructure.
False.
>There's no such thing as completely safe intrinsically valuable money.
False; see below.
>Except maybe gold and silver, but they aren't really practical.
They remain practical to this day, and thanks for conceding my point.

>>77187
So?

I don't give a fuck, I already made over 15 € with cryptos and you're shitposting on /biz/ ;^)

>>77203
Obviously meant 15k.

>>77206
no, he meant 15 €

I just wish all of the cryptofags would go back to /g/.

Everyone thinks they are going to get rich by doing what everyone else is doing, LOL.

>>77262
/biz/ has been created for Dogecoin you stupid fuck.

>>77262
this; a thousand times this
>>77268
false

>>77268
It was created because we have been bitching about wanting it for over a year now.

...that and the obvious advertisement market that moot is hoping to fill.

>>77292
guess it just coincidence that this was created shortly after the never ending doge generals on /g/

>>77200
so this is a pointless thread

>>77393
Moot was against creating a /$/ board. Look at his sticky. His intentions to get ad revenue are apparent. It's potential is far greater on a board about making money than say /b/ or /fit/

>>77016
tl;dr

this guy sounds like he missed like 4 consecutive trains despite others telling him to join while he still could

>>77190
Gold is definitely dependent on infrastructure. I guess water is the most intrinsically valuable thing, but there is too much of it.

>>77430
False. An ounce of gold remains an ounce of gold independent any man-made infrastructure.

>>77429
go to /soc/ with your worthless feelings

>Aristotle defined money
thread dropped

>>77016
>durable, fungible, divisible, portable, and intrinsically valuable
which crypto surrencies have. thanks for playing though!

>>78642
no, they do not because of the reasons outlined in the original post.

>>77016
I agree with you about cryptocurrentcies, but where does that leave fiat money like the dollar of whom are are backed by the government?

Personally I think cryptocurrencies weakness is the ability to create infinitely more. Even with the ability to trade between them.

Guess govt will step in and back certain ones.

Don't give the govt what they want (ability to track, trace, tax, charge and plain seize) and they won't give your shitty 2 bit comedycoin like doge a second look.

>>77448

Yes, but its not fucking valuable if no-one else values it. The reason people value gold is because of its scarcity, making it useful as a currency. Otherwise, it would be a shiny piece of metal. Bitcoins are value for the same reason, people trade with them, its a currency.

>>78750
Voltaire was correct when he said paper money returns to its intrinsic value - zero

>>78764
"no-one else valu[ing] it" != "dependent on infrastructure"

what is this; amateur hour?

>>77105
the fallacy fallacy

>implying that because an argument is presented in a fallacious manner or contains a fallacy, it is incorrect

>>78764
Bitcoins are but information on a hard drive, furthermore Bitcoins only have value because its users accept and trust that there is value.

>>77190
>chooses to call things false
>chooses to not refute

>>77279
>still refuses to refute
>still unable to refute

>>78703
>unable to refute direct arguments
>points to earlier comments instead of refuting on the spot
>unable to refute

>>78950
I'm under no obligation to reply to you. That I deigned your shoddy nonsense with a "false" was charitable.

>>79041
wasn't my response silly gai, just pointing out your inability to support your accusations.

>>78642
>>77176
What intrinsic value does Bitcion reserve?

>>79123
none
it's just like fiat currency without the legal tender status

>>77016
Aristotle also thought that misanthropes must be gods because their antisocial nature meant they weren't people.
Aristotle a shit.

>>78924
Gold is just a shiny rock; furthermore, gold only has value because its users accept and trust that there is value.

>>78924
Gold are but a metal, furthermore gold only have value because its users accept and trust that there is value.

>>80218
red herring; if one thinks says one thing that is correct and one thing that is incorrect, that does not invalidate the former

>>80429
Actually it kinda does. It proves that Aristotle is outdated and anything that he said a loooong time ago is subject to scrutiny. Unless we are just supposed to take everything he says as fact because ohmahgerd hes aristotle?

>>77016
You are way behind the times my friend. You do understand that when a world currency is instated it will inevitably be a digital one right?

>>80786
Go here to monger your fallacies - >>>/b/

>>80814
Do you morons know what an "argument from novelty" is?

>>80833
Great counter-argument! I am astounded by your persuasive powers!

>>80849
Aww cute! Someone finally got to the part of the class that explains logical fallacies! How's uni going for you buddy?

>that truck

Fuck off back to /o/ you retard.

>>80960
no

>intrinsically valuable
>gold

>intrinsically valuable
>anything that exists

>>77016
>Aristotle was right about money
>You need the internet for bitcoin to function
>The internet could close down just like any warehouse (or bank)
>Then bitcoin would be worth zero

Start a company that packages bullshit. You are pretty good at it and will make serious dosh :)

>>81100
>typing
>greentext
>instead
>of
>making
>a
>cogent
>argument
lazy nigger

>>77262
>bitcoin investors are the sheep following the herd


Considering that the estimated 2 million bitcoin users are slightly outnumbered by people who invest in stocks and housing, I think your criteria of "everybody is doing it because everybody else is doing it" might need some adjustment. Don't worry, take your time. Bitcoiners are getting used to dealing with slow old dinosaurs.

>>81182
bitcoiners are tards, and a few of them are lucky tards

it's a ponzi scheme pure and simple

>>77016
>real money
>gold and silver

kek. youre a massive idiot. do you know that if everyone traded exclusively with just gold and silver or "precious" metals how fucked the world economy would be? how the hell would that work if someone in new york wanted to buy computer hardware only manufactured in shanghai? personally fly there and hand deliver gold bouillon? wahahaha

even paper currency has proven unfeasible to handle large transactions or any type of trade that occurs more than driving distance. thats why we have banks. we give them money and they give us IOUs. in turn we use those IOUs to send digital signals instantaneously across the world and those digital signals are registered at the other end as currency. crypto-currency is the same process. get your head out of your ass

>>80307
>>80287
Gold is useful in electronics and other industrial and scientific uses. Not to mention it is used in jewelry. Can Bitcoin do any of that?

>>81156
Ah yes, there it is. The glorious n-word comeback. You do realize how typing on this board works, right? Or are you too lazy to lrn2greentext?

I don't need a counter argument. It is fact that bitcoin can work without any internet, Aristotle is a completely overrated hipster from 500BC, and the internet absolutely cannot be shutdown without also shutting down every other piece of infrastructure in the entire world.

Basically everything OP said was complete bullshit based on the most shallow understanding of some of the weakest crutches in academic debate. Seriously, what fucking idiot opens with "Well, Aristotle..." Maybe this is how you open your arguments on a regular basis which explains the clear lack of intellect and thus a total misunderstanding of bitcoin and currency in general.

>>81216
How is it a Ponzi scheme when there is no authority at the top handing out small returns and lying to you about your investment performance in order to get you to invest more before they fix the price down to zero? Please point to the evidence of there being a super-rich Bernie Maddof at the helm who is running it.

protip: You can't because Mt.Gox is not bitcoin

You faggot, if you think any of today's currencies meet Aristotle's criteria, you don't know shit about money.

>>81448
They do not.
Gold, silver, platinum, and palladium are money.

>>81308
they cannot cannot, but tardcoiners ignore that with their arguments from novelty

>>81308
they cannot; but tardcoiners like to ignore facts and blather on about their feelings like women and faggots

>>81962

Try paying for a loaf of bread with palladium.

All modern currencies are fiat. They are intrinsically worthless. They are built using an complex overarching infrastructure, just as crypto currencies are.

>>82026
I buy beef from a farmer with silver, so kiss my ass

>>82084

Wow that's nice for you. He must be a paranoid EOTWAWKI faggot like you as well. I bet he accepts 5.56 ammunition as payment too.

>>82001
What facts are we ignoring?

You can make lots of things using bitcoin: write contracts using bitcoin, create company stock using bitcoins as shares, and you can even create a will that is carried out after your death using time-release through the bitcoin protocol. Try doing any of that with gold and you will find it to be both a rather horrible ink, pen, and paper that is extremely expensive to transport.

Saying you can't build anything with bitcoin is like saying you can't build anything with Photoshop.

Do go on about how we ignore facts and talk about our feelings so much. You are being fun right now.

>>77016
>Aristotle defined money as an object with the qualities of being durable, fungible, divisible, portable, and intrinsically valuable.
Cryptocurrencies meet all the criteria set forth by Aristotle.
1. They are durable, they will last permanently once created.
2. They are fungible, and can be traded for goods or services.
3. They are divisible, you can buy 0.001 BTC.
4. They are portable, you can have cryptocurrencies anywhere just by accessing your wallet.
5. Intrinsic value is a subjective, as whether or not something has it is based on the opinion of an individual observer. In which case, if one thinks that it has intrinsic value, it therefore does.
Thus cryptocurrencies are money and are not destined to failure.

>>81285
this
/thread

>>78748
>Personally I think cryptocurrencies weakness is the ability to create infinitely more.

But you can't just create infinitely more BITCOIN. And that's a strength.

Yes you can create any number of shitcoins, but in the end only a handful will likely catch on. Saying you can create more is a weakness, is like saying facebook is weak because you can just make more social networks. It doesn't matter if no one uses them.

>>81308
And you think that has anything to do with what gold is worth to people?
Moreover, are any of those uses not dependent on something else?

ITT: OP doesn't understand basic concepts of credit cards, digital commerce, cryptos, and how they all share the same basic goal/premise. Except cryptos have the ability to do what credit cards can, minus having to pay banks outrageous interest rates, applying for credit lines based upon your existing spending history, and having a bank at any time pack up with your money and leave (you ARE your own bank if you store your coins encrypted in your wallet).

Love it or not, cryptos are the future of commerce.

Take this from an oldfag who also holds over 2000 ounces of silver in both eagle rounds and numismatics from every part of the globe.

>>81285
>how the hell would that work if someone in new york wanted to buy computer hardware only manufactured in shanghai? personally fly there and hand deliver gold bouillon? wahahaha
Damn, you're fucking stupid. Just like everyone who doubts gold. Here's how it would work: the same exact way it does today, you tell your bank to send the guy in Shanghai some gold, and they do an electronic transfer of rights with the other guy's bank. Apparently that's too complicated for you to understand.

>>82365
Nice samefagging.

>>82855
>2000 troz
prove it

>>82232
1. They're not durable. Many bitcoins have already been destroyed by data loss. If the encryption gets cracked, they're all ruined.
2. Hardly anyone accepts them for goods and services, and accepting them requires internet access on both sides, which is not always available.
4. Not portable. They're limited to the internet.
5. That's not how intrinsic value works.

>>82734
Gold was used in ancient times. If the scenario you're preparing for is worse than getting blown back to the bronze age, you're wasting your time.

>>82949
>electronic transfer of rights
until you actually received the goods its still an IOU. there is trust involved. how is that any different from paper currency or crypto-currency? lurk more dumbass

>>83062
>Gold was used in ancient times.
It was used as jewelry because it was valuable. Its "intrinsic" value is only dependant on rarity.
> the scenario you're preparing for
Doomsday prepping in general is a waste of time. I'm not preparing for anything; I'm arguing about whether or not gold has intrinsic value for the sake of proving OP's definition ridiculous.

>>83068
Come up with a real reply, please. If you're just going to post a blatant non-sequitur with no logic whatsoever, there's nothing to argue about.

>>83062
>4. Not portable. They're limited to the internet.
>limited
>to everywhere
Also, more places accept them than would accept pure precious metal.
And they're certainly more durable than paper fiat, which is insanely easy to destroy, especially if you keep multiple secure backups (which you should).

>>83126
>Come up with a real reply, please. If you're just going to post a blatant non-sequitur with no logic whatsoever, there's nothing to argue about.
>i have no rebuttal. i learned about non-sequiturs in uni last month so lets post something about that even though it is not relevant to anything. yes. that will prove im not a complete and total idiot
FTFY

>>83118
It's also good looking and easy to work with. It's true that the rarity is critical, but the rarity is stable. At the very least, the chance of someone figuring out a cheap way to create unlimited gold is lower than the chance of someone finding a way to use quantum mechanics to render modern encryption obsolete.

Gold has a long track record of being used as a material in physical goods and being valued by practically everyone, so even if we're judging by subjective value, gold's record has stood the test of time.

>>83171
Your post was nonsensical. You failed to make an argument and there's nothing to rebut.

>>83173
The internet isn't actually everywhere. Especially when there's power outages.

>>83242
>Your post was nonsensical
>I didnt understand your post because i am retarded
FTFY

>>83062
>A bushel of wheat meets this criterion
In the OP >A bushel of wheat meets this criterion
With the level of scrutiny you are putting on cryptocurrencies, a bushel of wheat also does not satisfy the definition of currency as it isn't durable, not many people accept it as a medium of exchange, they are quite heavy to move so they aren't portable.

>>83242
>It's also good looking and easy to work with.
But there are better looking, easier to work with metals that are worth less. Copper, for example.
>the rarity is stable
The supply of bitcoin increases at a rate that was set before anybody started trading with them. It's stable. The demand is what's fluctuating wildly.
> the chance of someone figuring out a cheap way to create unlimited gold is lower than the chance of someone finding a way to use quantum mechanics to render modern encryption obsolete.
Actually, what are the chances of somebody finding a large supply of gold somewhere out in space and actually being able to mine it?
Like, completely as an aside, I would like to know who is working on that and how they're doing.

Cryptocurrencies will never work as a currency because they've been turned into shitty pseudo "investments" by neckbeards all hoping there will be a greater fool

ITT: OP is trying to validate not investing his money like a smart person and instead dumping it all in to gold and silver waiting for Armageddon to hit. Good luck with that faggot. If a world catastrophe large enough to disrupt the current fiat system ever happens gold wont be worth shit either. Food and water will.

who actually allows payment using bitcoins? aren't cryptocurrencies basically dependent on TOR sites like the silk road?

>>83290
There's not much to understand in "everything is pointless and what I'm saying has nothing to do with what OP said."

>>83347
Copper isn't better looking. That's subjective, of course, but copper jewelry would be a lot more popular if everyone thought it was stylish.

>The supply of bitcoin increases
Bitcoins were designed to get rarer and rarer at a rate that would make early adopters rich. The supply changes significantly over the course of a few years, and losses would come even faster if mainstream idiots who don't back anything up were holding lots of them.

>Actually, what are the chances of somebody finding a large supply of gold somewhere out in space
Space investment by governments has gotten too low to make government space mining realistic in our lifetimes given national debts, so we'd need private exploration to really take off.

The X Prize guys are doing milestone awards on the way to simply tagging the moon. After it's possible to reach it, they'd have to improve the technology enough to get complex machinery up there economically. Then they'd build a moon mining colony, and that would pave the way to asteroid mining later on, which could have a lot of surprises.

OP is a retarded faggot
>pic related

>>83393
Well said
>>83290
You made a nonsensical post and were called out on it. Either explain your argument in a cogent manner or go spew your shit somewhere else. You are not welcome in this thread.

>>84170
Huh?
>>84002
I am not even the person you were responding to. You mean there is more than one person that thinks you are a retarded faggot? toplel

>>83647
>copper jewelry would be a lot more popular if everyone thought it was stylish.
People think gold is stylish because it's more expensive. That was my point with >>83118

The amount of them that exist goes up at a fixed rate via mining. The only way they can get rarer is if you lose your private key, and then it's your own fault.

Asteroid mining is such an awesome idea.

>>77016
>that truck
confirmed for b8

>>82997
>2000troz OMFG

$50k is not that much money, you pleb. It's not gold. Almost everybody with half a brain will come across $50k in their lifetime. I mean, it the guy said he had a supercar then yeah, that is rather doubtful. Try thinking less like a poor person and it might work out for you.

>>83425
Actually, consumer products that are well known and durable will be by far the most valuable resource post-apocalypse. Liquor brands with a long history of quality and good aging will most likely be the most valuable traded asset of all. Think how much a fan of Johnny Walker would pay if he had not seen a bottle of it in years or even decades.

>>85472
>People think gold is stylish because it's more expensive.
Here's the google image results for copper jewelry and gold jewelry. The copper looks awful.

>The amount of them that exist goes up at a fixed rate via mining
The rate slows over time:
>The number of Bitcoins generated per block is set to decrease geometrically, with a 50% reduction every 4 years. The result is that the number of Bitcoins in existence will never exceed 21 million[1].
The rising difficulty of getting coins will cause new users to prefer other currencies.

>>86435
I think the copper looks better, but maybe that is just because I have a wire fetish.
Anyway, the rate does slow. That was more detail than I wanted to go into because I was busy at the time, and I didn't want to take the time to figure out how to say properly that the rate at which the rate of mining slows was set in place before anybody started mining and hasn't changed, and the slowing of the rate of increase is not the same as a decrease.

>>81285
>in turn we use those IOUs to send digital signals instantaneously across the world and those digital signals are registered at the other end as currency
Something in your writing makes me think you believe that transferring money between overseas banks is an instant operation. Bitcoin takes an hour, banks can take days.

>open bitcoin client after some time without using it
>6 weeks behind
>about 20% of the blockchain bar not filled
>1/5 of all time transactions happened in the last six weeks
What the hell, also, how will this survive without collapsing under the weight of the blockchain? Imagine if bitcoin really catches on and we need to start dedicating a hard disk for it.

>>83647
>Copper isn't better looking.
New copper is great, the red looks even better than gold, but, it tarnishes quickly to the dull brown everyone is used to see.

Aristotle also thought that the states of mass had to do with the way they moved. As in, apples could be water if they fell into a pond.

>>88652
That's nothing compared to the current weird competing theories you will find in physics.

>>88470
>>86465
>>83647
>>85472
>>83347

>copper jewelry
>tarnishes within days,
>doesn't polish well,
>turns your fucking skin green,
>smells like shit
>emits toxic fumes
>impossible to cast
>pits constantly
>soft as fuck

Copper jewelry a shit.

To all those thinking that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value:
The blockchain itself is the most tamper-resistant device there ever was for proving ownership of a document at a said date:
Securely hash document, include hash in transaction signed with your private key, and enjoy people trying to claim prior ownership of your document.
>Fiatfags status: CrypTOLD

itt cointards getting mad
>muh feelings
>muh fallacies

>>77016
Paper monies do not meet this criterion because their value is predicated upon functioning paper. In other words, without the printing press, they are literally nothing

Saged your stupid fucking thread

>>90621
If you want to refute arguments I never made, you can do so elsewhere. Sage, meet bump.

>>90591
Where are the feelings and fallacies in this thread?

>Aristotle

Into the trash it goes!

We got over the scholastics 500 years ago, OP. The Earth goes around the Sun, bro.

>>93017
>bro

In to the trash it goes!

We got over imbeciles like you in eight grade. Use your brain.

>>92999
look at the posts made by paper-mongers and cointards

>>93085
Try refuting my point instead of criticising my vernacular, dawg.

>>93108
No thanks; I'd rather make fun of your antics.

>>93144
Enjoy being the inferior poster.

>>77016
A bushel of wheat is not particularly durable or portable, and most things that are called money now are neither intrinsically valuable nor infinitely divisible (Nor, for that matter, as portable as we'd like them to be).
The definition is flawed.

>>93254
First, OP said it met a criterion out of five criteria.
Second, I do not care what other people call money because most people are morons and languages tend to gravitate toward the moronic. There is a difference between money and currency, though morons tend to conflate the two. Money meets Aristotle's criteria, but currency can circulate and be exchanged for money should one desire. E.g. a gold certificate is currency that could be exchanged at a bank for money i.e. gold coin.

>>93101
I agree we have lots of shit-talkers on both sides of the aisle, but one thing that is indisputable is that the data of bitcoin price is 100% on the side of the "cointards". While idiots shout their heads off all day at eachother, the numbers are all on the side of bitcoin. I lel so hard every time some noobish channer points to the graph going down and saying it is all over.

>>93334
I agree we have lots of shit-talkers on both sides of the aisle, but one thing that is indisputable is that the data of NASDAQ price is 100% on the side of the "cointards". While idiots shout their heads off all day at eachother, the numbers are all on the side of tard-commers. I lel so hard every time some noobish channer points to the graph going down and saying it is all over.

>>93334
I agree we have lots of shit-talkers on both sides of the aisle, but one thing that is indisputable is that the data of NASDAQ price is 100% on the side of the "dotcomtards". While idiots shout their heads off all day at eachother, the numbers are all on the side of tard-commers. I lel so hard every time some noobish channer points to the graph going down and saying it is all over.

>>93308
>languages tend to gravitate toward the moronic.
Languages change to suit the needs of the people who use them. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you learn lojban.
The definition of a word should describe how the word is used. OP's argument seems to be based on an appeal to Aristotle's presumed authority and nothing else; if he just wanted to say that gold was intrinsically valuable and bitcoin isn't, then why bring the definition of money into it?
Aside from which, Aristotle must have actually been defining some Greek word which gets translated as money, which is not necessarily the same as defining the English word money.

>>77016
>"I have never heard of fiat currency"

This is all I'm reading

>>77016
> implying that all off these functioning storage devices will malfunction at once.
> implying that digital currency will not simply move to a more secure algorithm such as SHA-512 or SHA-1024 over time

>>93386
Most people are morons, language changes to meet the needs of said morons, therefore it gravitates toward the moronic, and yes, I do have a problem with that.

>>93417
>I'm too good for linguistic drift.
Then I suggest you learn lojban, or create your own conlang.

>>93450
No, I study Latin and Attic Greek.

>>93361
Actually, even people that lost everything during the dot-com bubble but stayed in the internet technology feild, working or investing, have made a ton of money since then. Only the idiots that sold at the bottom and gave up on the internet were the real losers. I really don't think you made a good comparison, once again.

So cryptocurrency isn't real because a dead Greek said so?

Sure, I can roll with that.

>>94885
you cointards are more delusional than I thought

fools and their money...

>>95146
You just don't even have a clue how much information you are missing. This drop to $500 is not surprising at all and is just the same shit all over again as before. Let me spell it out for you.

>Bitcoin reaches $1, crashes to $0.02
>Bitcoin reaches $30, crashes to $1.98
>Bitcoin reaches $270, crashes to $58
>Bitcoin reaches $1200, crashes to $500

If you cannot see the pattern, then I have no idea how to get it through you thick skull with more words. Each new bubble goes way about the last bottom price by and into the next order of magnitude before pulling back to the previous order at approximately double the value of the last peak. Each new bubble is slower and more stable than the last one, and the new bottom is tested with a few corrections before gaining confidence to reach the next order of magnitude in an even more stable fashion than the previous one. Next step in the pattern is BTC reaching $10k in the next 12 months and then crashing back to double the previous crash as the new bottom.

It keeps happening like this over and over, and the cycle is not slowing down but actually it is speeding up a lot. The s-curve is about to get parabolic again in a few months. This is nothing like how the dot-com bubble rose and burst, and as far was know nothing like the pattern seen in Tulip mania. This is a tiered adoption process of technology, and since the technology is a new form of a commodity that is just a number value, each tier of adoption is the next zero being added on to the number.

Are you people blind? How can you not see this? You really think the exchanges are going to have problems that help to sink crypto? Look how many there are and how many services are offered between them. This is never going to end, too much money to be made plain and simple. Get on it or regret it forever.

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/markets/info

tl:dr Get better info, your insults are not helping you.

Aristotle said a lot of bullshit.

>>88458
That's the main flaw of bitcoin. The size of the blockchain increases at a higher rate than hard drive space does. Making it harder for new people to get in and forcing to spend more space on it.

>>95684
THE RICH GET RICHER

Also hard drive space is dirt cheap you fucking jew

>>95744
and bandwidth is limitless, right? the TCP/IP fairies bring us our data magically

>>95744
True, but downloading the blockchain is getting annoying.
There's got to be a better way.

this thread quite clearly tells me Bitcoin will forever be a taboo subject on /biz/.

itt tardcoin hot air

>>77016
don't give a shit what you think faggot
world's moving on and up
you don't actually think evolution has ended do you?

Patiently waiting for 200 dollar bitshekels to buy in.

Can someone with any insider info please tell me who the goxuckers are who actually traded their coins all the way down to $90??

>>95929
MTGox stopped allowing withdrawals, so people who think that they are never going to see those bitcoins at all think they might as well sell them for whatever they can get. It's better than getting nothing when MTGoy shuts down.

>>95770
There is, download the Electrum wallet. There are several wallets that do no force everybody to download the blockchain.

>>95999
Except then you're trusting other people to download and store the blockchain for you, and I don't have that much faith in people.

>>77016
>Aristotle defined
Citation Needed.

>>96042
aristotle, duh

>>96042
>>96044
It doesn't matter, philosophtards

>>96042
it's in Politika

>>95146
This fucking idiot would have walked away from the dot-com bubble empty-handed and denounced the internet for as long as he could, dying a bitter and defeated man.

The idea that fiat currencies are not intrinsically valuable is hogwash. People do not bestow value upon them, but instead recognise the form of value in them. Take away intrinsic value from fiat currency, you are not left with any currency whatsoever.

>>77016
>Aristotle defined money as an object with the qualities of being durable, fungible, divisible, portable, and intrinsically valuable.

So what? Aristotle lived in an era that had an extremely low volume of transactions and had different requirements on currency than we have today.

Requirements like ability to make many transactions very quickly, to make remote transactions which do not require actually transporting goods and making convenient transactions that don't require the currency on your person, being able to carry all your wealth in something like a digital form if you're a millionaire are things that didn't exist in Aristotle's time.

Crypto currencies do rely on an existing structure of computer systems and networks but so what, those things have proven over time to become faster, bigger, more reliable and more redundant as time goes on, at a huge rate.

SHA2 is known to be safe for the forseeable future, there are weaknesses in the other encryption primitives you mention, for example we can find collisions in Md5 but it's not "cracked" crypto you still have to do a lot of work to find collisions and they're not guaranteed, it's a weakness for sure but it doesn't make it entirely useless. Your knowledge of crypto is extremely basic.

>>83062

1. Nothing is completely durable, you could for example lose a bar of gold by a container ship carrying it sinking to the bottom of the ocean where recovery is impossible or impractical.

Besides some cryptocurrency like dogecoin allows for an infinite but controlled amount of coins over time which can replace "lost" currency"

2. Loads of places accept them for goods and services

4. They're extremely portable, a wallet file can be put on any electronic device which is equally as if not more portable than a bar of gold
5. NOTHING has intrinsic value, value is only what people place on things and is subjective. If an asteroid hits the earth which is 80% gold and all of a sudden we have 5000x the amount of gold in circulation then the percieved value of gold would drop dramatically, value is merely what people assign to things which entirely subjective and circumstantial.

>>97356
>People do not bestow value upon them, but instead recognise the form of value in them.

Call it whatever you like, but the two halves of that sentence are the exact same thing in real life. We give value by trusting the dollar. That trust is dropping around the world and at home. You really need to take another look at the situation and the definition of intrinsic value.

>>97586
>Call it whatever you like, but the two halves of that sentence are the exact same thing in real life.
When you talk of intrinsic forms, it's not to do with real life as you call it. What you call real life is just staring at shadows on a cave wall.

>>95419
>This is never going to end, too much money to be made plain and simple. Get on it or regret it forever.

And there you have it, gentlemen; what cointards are actually thinking. This board is going to be one of the funniest places on the internet when the bubble pops.

>>77016
Go back to /o/ with your faggot pickup. You cocksucker

>>97766
evangelists for whatever coin only exist for my amusement - so I can laugh at and ridicule them

>>95419

This is why everyone should do some stats modules in school.

If only everything were a linear graph Anon.

Aristotle defined the elements as being fire, earth, air, water, and aether, faggot.

>>99519
Aristotle defined the elements as being fire, earth, air, water, aether and bitcoin, faggot.

>>77016
you're a fuckin dumbass m8

the problem is the existing definitions of currencies do not accurately represent bitcoin. that doesn't mean it isn't a currency.

go look at M-Pesa in Kenya, it's literally god damn phone minutes that africans are trading back and forth to buy groceries. i am guessing this isn't a currency either?

sellyourcomputerandfuckoff/10

>>99606
money != currency

>>99558
by your powers combined i am

captain of industry

ITT bitcoiners sucking on a blockchain

>>99084

Paper money isn't very durable. And it sure is not intrinsically valuable.

>>97634
Oh, another Plato/Aristotle/Socrates fag? Yeah, this guy will for sure understand bitcoin very, very well, no doubt. We all need to take his advice on both cryptocurrencies and everything else in the universe.

Just got my security+ today. Entry level stuff, nothin special. But its cool to see encryption and all this stuff circulate consistently in the news. I feel hip.

>money
>intrinsically valuable

That, sir is a paradox od the highest order. All money is fiat, and only has value that we place on it. Even gold and silver. After all you can't eat metal.

>>97766
You can laugh at bitcoiners all you want, unless they become rich this year, which many of them will. So basically you are laughing at your imagined future where bitcoin or cryptocurrency as a whole fails.

Let's put this on the justice scale:
1. Person A sits on their ass laughing at people that are trying hard to improve the whole world.

2. Person B is working to help end bad banking and government policies worldwide and stem corruption right at the minting press.

I guess you prefer to live in the world where the lazy person gets to keep laughing forever and the bankers get to kick people out of there homes because they know the bank will get bailed out no matter how predatory and fractional the system may become.

One thing for sure about nocoiners, they can see about 2 seconds into the future and don't give a fuck about anything in it other than making money.

>>103732
3. Invest in -INVESTMENTS- and not speculative, stupid fucking instruments that are illiquid(have to local coin, exchanges broken/being lame/getting shut down by feds), are trackable(permanent wallet chain), and aren't being used -as currency- and instead are fucking Tulips.

I'll take my dividend growth and value stocks.

>>103784
If you could have seen the future last year you would have INVESTED in bitcoin and been completely cashed out by now with a 6000% ROI.

Face the fact, you missed out on the greatest investment in the world last year as declared by Forbes, and no matter what happens to crypto in future you will miss out on most or all of the ROI because of your small, stubborn dinosaur brain.

>mfw you miss out on everything

>>103844
>If you could have seen the future last year you would have INVESTED in bitcoin and been completely cashed out by now with a 6000% ROI.
thats not investing, thats speculating.

>>85486
some fag on /o/ kept posting his truck a couple months back so this became their pasta.

>>103844
If I could've seen the future, I would've won a fucking lottery. Why waste time trying to cash in/cash out of fucking buttcoins when I could just drive down to the lottery office and collect my winnings?

ITT: OP is dumb enough to think that in the future we, as a world, would regress back to using precious metals for currency instead of advancing our technology further and adopt digital currency as the ONLY vehicle of international commerce meanwhile scrapping paper currency entirely.

>mfw

>>104043
GOLD IS THE FUTURE!
USD IS WORLD RESERVE FOREVER!
BUTTCOIN IS SHIT!

protip: this is the actual thought process of about half of the financial dinosaurs and their brood that lurk on /biz/

Here's Peter Schiff's answer:

>Would bitcoin be more valuable if it were backed by silver? Meaning, if you had a bitcoin, you could turn it in at the bitcoin office for an oz of silver, guaranteed. Right now there's no guarantee, so surely some sort of guarantee would make it more valuable.

>If you could turn it in for an oz of silver, would the price of one bitcoin be significantly higher than the price of an oz of silver? If the price of this new improved bitcoin wouldn't be higher than that of an oz of silver, why should this inferior bitcoin we have right now be higher?

>>104877
Same old shit from the same old shill. His points are as follows:

1. Since bitcoin is not back by a physical metal like gold or silver, then it is inferior.

He just keeps trying to sell you on the bag of shit currently known as gold investing. He got rich by betting on gold instead of Fannie Mae or Lehman Bros., and now he will just keep spouting about how great it is for the rest of his life. It is one thing to give bad advice and change your stance later, and it is a much worse thing to just stick with your old plan and ride it into the ground.

>>104043
"Humans : correct in making leap from wealth as currency to wealth as energy. But logic failure : wealth ultimately is extension of desires, fluctuating with emotions and state of mind. Desires : when all are supported in purely adaptable system, true wealth is achieved."

- Usurper Judaa Marr, "Human : Nature"

If you don't want your bitcoins anymore, could you send them here? I desperately need gas money or I risk having to live in Kansas:
1HsTAKPejd23HKdnNB
AW6jEMGwaMG5Pe8r

>>105886
So you are the OP and are just trolling this entire thread with vague philosophical remarks that in absolutely no way relate to any modern currency or store of wealth, and yet somehow these remarks, though holding absolutely zero relevance to anything today, some completely prove that cryptocurrency is a fad and they are all exactly the same thing, in every single possible way, as beanie babies?

Well boys, guess I better go and sell all of my beanie babies on ebay. Been a great ride!

protip: don't listen to soon-to-be-extinct ideas, concepts, or dinosaurs

>>106064
Sent ;^)

>>77134
>well they meet the criteria better than the us dollar does. noob.
The US dollar has only been off the gold standard for 42 years.

Also, the dollar has lost over 80% of its value since 1972. That's for a currency which has held up fairly well.

>>95419
>Bitcoin reaches $1, crashes to $0.02
>Bitcoin reaches $30, crashes to $1.98
>Bitcoin reaches $270, crashes to $58
>Bitcoin reaches $1200, crashes to $500


Ok, class is in session kid. A graph has an X and a Y axis. A set of coordinates has both an X coordinate and a Y coordinate. Over time you can plot (x,y) sets to look for patterns or trends.

What you have here, is a bunch of damn Y coordinates ONLY. Without the corresponding X coordinate we can't really say there's a trend.

So when you say "bitcoin reaches" $X.xx and crashes to $X.xx , and you say that 4 times, you are attempting to plot a trend. You can not do that without (x,y) BOTH.

>>106441
>Also, the dollar has lost over 80% of its value since 1972
A dollar, not the dollar.

>>107348
>A dollar, not the dollar.

^^^^THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^

Thank you for saying it.

>>107338
>September, 2010
>June, 2011
>April, 2013
>December, 2013

Not too hard to see where it is going. Resembles nothing of a speculative bubble, but rather a fledgling technology getting over stumbling blocks in a rather predictable fashion, exactly as the previous poster outlined in this thread. Are we the only ones that see this happening?

>>100929

That's not how the world works.

>>81322
#FUGGINMAXIMUMBUTTREKT

>>82143
#REKT

>>107338
Here's the actual graph, >>100929 , but with only those last three (You can kind of see the first one, but it is very small in comparison).
Also, it's on a log scale because that makes it easier to see. On a linear scale you can only see the most recent two, unless you can zoom in quite a lot.
>>107383
>patterns repeating themselves
>not the way the world works
Care to elaborate?

>>107368
Exactly, if this was a simple bubble we would never see a prolonged downtrend. Bubbles don't work like that. They have dips along the way, but nothing like the massives peaks and valleys of bitcoin.

>>77016

bitcoin is double SHA-2

snowden takes donations in bitcoin

doesn't really matter because if SHA-2 is broken it can be replaced with other algorithms

>>107429

You can't extrapolate speculative bubbles in the same manner as a linear trend. It's absolute lunacy. It ignores external factors, limits on growth and unforeseen problems with the coin.

Fuck I even believe in bitcoin but I'm not a wishful thinking retard.

Data analysis should not be done on MS paint if what you've even done can be called data analysis.

>>107455
>You can't extrapolate speculative bubbles in the same manner as a linear trend.
Except my purpose in showing the graph (and in copy/pasting the areas I did beneath) was to provide evidence that it's not a bubble, and is, in fact, the same thing bitcoin has done every six months for as far back as we have data for.

>>107452
What does snowden taking bitcoin donations have to do with the encryption being secure? That doesn't mean it will always be secure. Of course, for all we know it will be secure well past our lifetime without some unlikely breakthrough technology, but that has nothing to do with Snowden.

It is great to talk about economic policies and giving people control over their own money, but bitcoin as a community seriously needs to start distancing itself from people like Snowden, Assange, or any other radical anti-government figure. These people have achieved a very rare thing in their lifetime that most of us never will and perhaps it did a lot of good, but they are the absolute worst thing for the image of bitcoin if you want it to be taken seriously by everybody.

>>107455
The crazy part about the extrapolation in logarithmic scale is that all of the external factors fall directly into the same pattern every time. We had the crash with China in December and then the double dipping with the transaction malleability issue at just a few lazy exchange websites. Isn't it strange how the linear pattern keeps repeating reliably even with some huge external factors affecting it each time? It just seems like no matter what is going to happen, the pattern will not stop until it is as widely adopted as the personal computer or cellular phone.

Just watch how it either does or does not break through the next order of magnitude. Would you invest if it was accepted at Amazon and BoA?

>>97476
>1. Nothing is completely durable, you could for example lose a bar of gold by a container ship carrying it sinking to the bottom of the ocean where recovery is impossible or impractical.


And yet it will still be there 5 thousand years later

>Besides some cryptocurrency like dogecoin allows for an infinite but controlled amount of coins over time which can replace "lost" currency"


Irrelevant

>2. Loads of places accept them for goods and services

A fraction of the internet is not "loads" im afraid

>4. They're extremely portable, a wallet file can be put on any electronic device which is equally as if not more portable than a bar of gold

They are not because you require internet connection, in this case, on the whole planet to trade

>5. NOTHING has intrinsic value, value is only what people place on things and is subjective. If an asteroid hits the earth which is 80% gold and all of a sudden we have 5000x the amount of gold in circulation then the percieved value of gold would drop dramatically

No, the price will rise because there will be more demand from people who will use it in various scientifical and biological fields

Plus, its not fungible

>>89114
Thats not what intrisicly valueable means

>Fiatfags status: CrypTOLD
Gold isnt fiat, moron.

>>107509
>Plus, its not fungible

It's like the Peter Schiff shills just drop that anchor every fucking time. Like they can't just let their argument stand for itself and they have to throw in a completely irrelevant word that has nothing to do with the rest of the post.

That is such a pathetic strategy to arguing. Like saying that you have your wife's mom because of the way she never calls you by your real name, and then you just throw in a totally unrelated negative few words right at the end just in case you didn't really make a good point.

And you know what killer is here? Bitcoin is actually the most fungible currency of all time. They are not like bills and coins that get refreshed every few years and look sometimes very different. I have looked down at a bill or coin of USD many times and thought, not jokingly at all, "Is that really the new penny/quarter/dollar? Huh, looks, kind weird, but well yeah I guess that's it." Yeah, bitcoin is a hell of a lot less fungible than that, let me tell you!

>>107582
>have your wife's mom

*hate

>>107582
3/10 though serious

>>107523

All currencies are "fiat".

>>107622
gold isnt fiat
Filtered.

>>103732
>unless they become rich this year, which many of them will

But rich in what? Actual currency or fake internet money?

Sooner or later, someone's going to be left holding the bag.

That's what makes this a Ponzi scheme, not a currency.

>>107632

Stunning rhetoric.

>>107784

All currencies are Ponzi schemes.

>>107784
>someone's going to be left holding the bag.
And it's going to be the people who didn't switch over to cryptocurrency when they had the chance, and are now stuck with dinofiat that nobody is willing to give them anything for. Later though. Much, much later.

>>107803

Maybe so, but this one is exceptionally Ponzi, especially considering that most Bitcoiners don't actually want Bitcoin. They want USD.

Once they can no longer mine profitably, they'll get out and make their (real, government-supported) money while they can. Many already have. Once the upside vanishes and the investment opportunity goes away, Coinbase will eventually shut down because no one will be willing to put in USD to get BTC. People keep posting That One Chart with the falling peak, but I doubt that BTC will wind up like that; it'll just slowly decline and eventually fall flat as all the speculators jump out. Some will hold onto it in the case it ever rises again.

Because, again, very few people involved in Bitcoin actually want Bitcoin. They're just trying to speculate to get real money.

Theoretically, you'll always be able to use it to buy drugs, but a few more sting operations and it won't be good for those, either.

>>107830
>and are now stuck with dinofiat that nobody is willing to give them anything for

And I suppose that in this fantasy, all the world's governments and all their military hardware just kind of up and vanish?

>>107858
They're all conquered by Doom.

>>107855

Oh, I agree completely. I don't think Bitcoin solves any of the real problems with today's banking systems and currencies, so I don't think there will ever come a time when most goods denominated in USD can also, never mind exclusively, be bought with Bitcoin. I just don't like it when people simplistically say "gold is real money" or "Bitcoin can't be inflated like fiat currencies" which is just so fundamentally wrong.

>>80860
Stop taking the bait god damnit.

>>81285
Any kind of currency, by definition lacks an intrinsic value. What makes the currency valuable when you make an on-line transaction is the fact that is backed, not by gold, silver, or sperm if you wanted, but by a number of users and governments, which make said currency have an acorded value. Compare the number of users and corporations that support the USD to the number of users and corporations that support crypticurrencies. There you'll see that even if it has an accorded value it's not stable due to the fact that it relies on demand to mantain its value. That said, it doesn't mean that is a bad way to invest your money, it means that it's just a risky way to do so. If you feel that it's price won't drop, then do what you want, but don't come crying if your currency loses all it's value for any reason.

>>107886
>bitcoin doesn't solve any real problems with today's current system

Nevermind that sending money instantly over the internet is one of the most miraculous things ever. Your son is visiting some place in South America where Western Union would take days to send him the money, but his wallet was just stolen tonight and he has no way to pay for a place to stay or a bus ticket back to the airport. Yep, sounds like the current system in place is just absolutely great for that problem that actually does happen all the time to regular people. Imagine you are out on a date and you accidentally run out of bitcoins on your carry-on wallet file, and then you can just text a couple friends while going to the bathroom and see if anybody will let you borrow 0.05 bitcoins so you can order some dessert.

It will take a long time, maybe 5 years, for a lot of the old ways of thinking about money to vanish and be replaced entirely by a cryptocurrency perspective, and then we will look at banks the same way we look at the post office now.

I'll do two examples using the exact same product to illustrate why nocoiners are blind.

1)
Example of bad new technology for investors:
When people show you a picture of a flying car and then tell you to invest because "can't you see, it is the future, so wow, many rich, by the year 2000..." you can safely bet that they are full of shit.

2)
Example of a good technology for investing:
They show you the flying car actually flying around, and provide a profitable business model for investors, and can prove 100% that it serves a significantly better utility to the customer with faster/better travel, and the federal and local governments of the largest and most forward-thinking countries all around the world start passing bills to regulate flying cars to legitimize the industry that they see as possibly benefiting the economy.

Guess which one of the two bitcoin is right now? Nocoiners are going to regret this one pretty badly.

>>77016
Well, you got anymore inapplicable philosophy that you want to try and peddle as being relevant to modern stores of wealth, or should we just count this whole thread as +1 bitcoiners and -1 nocoiners?