/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>724785
>no unemployment rate
lel
>no crime rate
lel

>free education
>free health care
>free

thanks for the shit post

>name ONE flaw with international communism
It can't work. It's just a pipe dream that runs counter to reality.

Communism is dead.

>>724788
I hate this shit. people just make claims with no supporting statements. I know it is communism but if you have an opinion at least back it up.

>>724791
>with no supporting statements
How many times do you think this discussion has been had? How many times do you expect the same wall of text response to pasted? Do you still go into detail to explain why moon landing conspiracy theorists are wrong or do you simply can them wrong and move on?

>>724787
>shitposting instead of proving me wrong

You realize there are statistics from the USSR era you dumb fucking cuck. It's fine, I understand your frustration, it must be tiring to hear your sister and mother get ravaged by Somalians in the next room. Heh.

>>724791
Me or him? USSR was heavily totalitarian thanks to Stalinism and the last president of USSR tried to change it to be more open and focus resources inside Russia rather than Central Asia which caused it to collapse. That and Yeltsin agenda.

International communism is the key to progress, if you look how capitalism is progressing in USA, you can already tell what direction it's going.

>>724794
>no unemployment rate
Sure you can just "employ" people in work camps :^)
>no crime rate
you cant be srs


>name ONE flaw with international communism

I would not have been born into the 0.1% if communism was around :^) I always laugh internally when people tell me that people are all equal.

>>724797
>be a cuck from Sweden
>don't understand politics or what type of political government is in your own country
>don't understand statistics

Yet you're still trying, why don't you join your buddy Somalia and fuck off?

>>724785
Why are you on a business board?

>>724799
>thinking that Scandinavia is one country

:^)

>>724793
>How many times do you think this discussion has been had?
if you don't want to be a full participant in this discussion. THEN FUCK OFF. shitposting is posting without value or merit. which is exactly what posting an opinion with no supporting statement.

>>724809
>shitposting is posting without value or merit
This entire thread is a shitpost.

>>724810
That's kind of where I was heading with the "Why are you on a business board?".

To bring the topic of central planned economies, setting aside whatever merits or lack thereof, to a business board is at best misguidedly off topic, at worst, and I suspect exceedingly more likely, a deliberate troll.

Either way, don't forget to sage, kids!

> every example of communism in history has been mediocre at best and nightmarishly horrible at worst
> it'll work this time if only we believe enough

Any ideology which has been tried numerous times and has never come even close to its ideal isn't worthy of being supported.

>>724785

>no crime rate
>no unemployment rate
>everyone pays taxes like everyone else, even if you're rich or part of the middle class. nobody gets a short cut
>free education
>free health care
>government pays out salary

...
>or you die

>>724824
Sharing is caring.
Don't be a leech. I don't agree with the methods Stalin used in Ukraine to starve 7 million Ukrainians because "they weren't working fully in the farms" but being a leech is disgusting nonetheless.

>>724785
>coming on a business related board to talk about socialism

Will the mods please do their fucking jobs?

>>724832
>>724819
you do know we are a containment board for crypto-shills, don't you?
>taking 4chan seriously
>any year
kek

>>724833
We've made great strides since the board started to get /pol/ and the cryptoshills out (abnormally high number of cryptothreads on the board right now notwithstanding).

There's still plenty of garbage, but it's our garbage.

>>724835
^ this

>>724827
Hohoh please.
Stalin hadn't starved anyone, it was the system and human factor that lead to the famine.
Here is how it went down:
1. USSR collects a large %tage of harvest the year before
2. Farmers think - fuck that, I'll just grow enough food for myself.
3. ALL OF THEM grew just for themselves, practically nothing extra
4. Stalin & Co rolls around, and asks what the fuck is going on here and why they havent planted like they always did. Takes half of their shit anyway even thought 90% of them planted and grew only enough to feed themselves.
5. They starve.

Not a fan of Stalin, but hey... the guy knew how to do some things right.

>>724959
If socialism is so great, then what motivation do people have not to just call in sick to work whenever they don't feel like working?

Is socialism meant to rely on one persons own desire to do good for his fellow man? Cause believing that is even crazier than believing having no rights is a good thing.

>>724785
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Please stop it's too funny lol

...

Oh wait you're serious.

I almost envy the simple life you must lead with that brain of yours

>>724785
I'm pretty sure this is a troll post - but anyway:

There's a reason communism doesn't work: Lack of incentive to work.

If there is little to no correlation between amount of effort output by a worker and their compensation (if you reply with "but CEOs play golf all day I'll kill you") the workers quickly learn to put forth the minimal effort needed to avoid being reprimanded.

If I knew I could go in early to work extra, but I wouldn't get paid more and have no chance of a raise resulting from it, like hell I'm getting out of bed early.

>>724959
So: Stealing the food that the farmers planted, grew, and harvested, using a monopoly on force, is considered "doing things right"?

Why do the farmers owe me anything? They did all the work. Why should they have to do extra work?

>>724959
Virtually every communist country has famines, China, Vietnam, NK, Cuba, Zimbabwe. It always happens because of the economic calculation problem (and because the leaders are evil sometimes). It is a feature of communism.

>>724982
Give it a rest hohol. It was the same type of stealing that happens when you do your taxes each year, the issue was that the tax code was different.

>>724987
China hasn't had a since the 1950's. I don't think Vietnam or Cuba or Zimbabwe have ever had famines. The USSR didn't have a famine since the 1940's.

There was a famine in America in the 1930's it was called the dust bowl.

>>724996
You're making a pretty strong case for libertarianism here, despite your sincerest intentions.

>>724979
>There's a reason communism doesn't work: Lack of incentive to work.

This is what always gets me about communism. Why would anyone want a system that doesn't pay out according to the effort and skill one puts in?

The idea of communism is that the means of production are publicly owned, and any surplus generated through labor goes to the laborer. That is a very simplistic view though, which relies on the assumption that capital would be a public good. In practice, that isn't really the case because capital has upkeep and can be damaged by improper use.

The way that modern society in general has worked out more or less solves a lot of the problems that arose from the industrial revolution. The only real issue is the occasional oddity of certain industries, like utilities. Utilities would generally be better run by the government with a mandate to provide proper service at affordable costs without the potential for Enron level rolling-blackouts-for-money type shit. Instead, we let Comcast provide shitty internet for half the country while blocking any attempt to upgrade the infrastructure because it cuts in to their profits.

>>724794
>implying those statistics are accurate

>>724794
like the USSR statistics were legit...

>>724959
>>724785
>>724794
>>724791
>>724809
>>724827

I love how you can state all the facts about how communism and socialism destroy the individual quality of life and lead to full authoritarian governments that create a two class system of the elite and poor who are forced to do manual labor or be murdered, and the retards will still defend it

>>725021
>a system that doesn't pay out according to the effort and skill one puts in?

what is capitalism, for $200 Alex.

I used to be a high school libertarian then I got a job and saw the real world. Wealth is not a function of merit or value provided to society.

The benefits of socialism is security and stability. Plus you have the freedom to denounce your boss and have input in how the means of production are operated.

eventually socialism will evolve into communism when we perfect automation. In socialism when a robot is invented to do your job, you still get its paycheck. In capitalism the bourgeoisie get the benefits and the workers are forced to compete for the one robot maintenance job. While more and more become unemployed.

You also can't grow out of this problem, that model requires infinite growth on a planet with finite resources.

>>725039
So you've evolved from a high school libertarian to a college techno-utopian.

>>725039
No - it's actually the most efficient way to utilize the finite resources we have.

You seem to have this idea that it is impossible to acquire enough wealth to invest it if you are not born wealthy. The fact of the matter is that most people are either too stupid, or too short-sighted to do it.

Give up cable tv, cell phones, leasing fancy cars you can't afford, and all the other frivolities considered "needs" these days and you can get have savings, and then re-invest your money.

You're just a weak bitch. Stop complaining and go start your own business instead of demanding things from those willing to work.

This good vs. evil mentality is showing your inability for critical thinking.

>>725039
>you have the freedom to denounce your boss and have input in how the means of production are operated.

No you don't

You either work the fields or you're murdered or jailed.

Just kitity kekkity kek at having input on the means of production

Socialism has an even bigger rich and poor divide than capitalism does. At least there is a middle class in capitalism.

>>725054
>This good vs. evil mentality is showing your inability for critical thinking.

Quite the opposite. People who recognize one from the other, instead of seeing a thick line of grey goo where bright spots are processes and events that can play in their own interest are the rare critical thinkers of today.

>>725048
>So you've evolved from a high school libertarian to a college techno-utopian.

In a way I guess you're right. But techno-utopia is centuries into the future. I want a clean environment, good education for all and housing for everyone. Socially I want democracy at the workplace.

>>725054
>You seem to have this idea that it is impossible to acquire enough wealth to invest it if you are not born wealthy.
it is not impossible but what you say is only possible for a very tiny group.

Why should a social system be built to benefit the few?

Also grow up from your "rich dad, poor dad" mentality. investing =/= return on investment. Plenty of smart hardworking people follow your advice and are still poor. While plenty of hedgefund babies don't even worry about financial matters.

>>725062
>No you don't
says you, you don't define the future of socialist society. You are opposed to one so your words are characterization is bullshit.

>>725067
>You are opposed to one so your words are characterization is bullshit.

Which doesn't change the fact that the dictatorship tells you what to do.

>>725063
Simply denoting something as definitively "good" or "evil" is ignorant. Circumstances are constantly changing.

If you really think your smart enough to understand every possible aspect of a matter, your fooling yourself. There are always unintended consequences to an action, whether they are retroactively identified or not.

You can straw man me as falling victim to confirmation bias or as someone unable to commit to a decision all you want, but it's not going to help your argument.

Considering every liberal in this damn country believes in the black/white right/wrong good/evil paradigm, it's a bit surprising that you consider this "rare critical thinking".

>>725067
Just because >>725073 is selectively making arguments doesn't instantly invalidate the arguments he is making. Nice try though.

>>725034
>Implying that doesn't happen with capitalism
>Implying any of those "communist governments" actually were communist societies.

>>725054
Capitalism is not an efficient way to use our resources.

As shit as it was in many aspects, the USSR did use their resources efficiently, producing quality products on a limited amount instead of having shit we have with capitalism like planned obsolescence and an oversupply of products that end in the trash.

I'm not saying we should be communist, but there must be a better way to use our shit.

>>725081
'True' communism isn't possible.

>>725085
We're also not fully capitalist. It's entirely possible to make environmental concerns into a cost that businesses would then minimize.

>>725085
Please, please, please explain to me how a central bureaucracy is more efficient than a free economy in terms of production.

Or supply some sort of shred of credible proof that the USSR had anything less than a garbage economy propped up by schemes similar to China's ghost cities that exist today.

And while you research - the government spending money != production

>>725089
As soon as you have the government create artificial incentives like that, it's no longer true capitalism.

>>725086
I know, I wasn't implying that it is. But at least people should use the correct term "dictatorship of the proletariat".

>>725089
It's not only the protection of the environment (which, if it wasn't for corruption and lobby, would actually be part of the cost of a product in a capitalist society, but companies nowadays don't pay any of their fines or lobby to abolish any further limitations on their trade), but also the limited amount of commodities and raw materials which require efficiency in consumption, something that capitalism doesn't provide as much as socialism.

>>725092
That's the point. There's a reason all industrialized nations are mixed market.

>>725090
>Please, please, please explain to me how a central bureaucracy is more efficient than a free economy in terms of production.

You could've read what I said about planned obsolescence, which effectively is a waste of raw materials for the sake of artificially creating wealth, and there is also overproduction of goods out of need to create demand, described quite well by Keynes (and completely true today thanks to massive marketing campaigns dedicated to create needs on the consumers).

>Or supply some sort of shred of credible proof that the USSR had anything less than a garbage economy propped up by schemes similar to China's ghost cities that exist today.
I'm not saying they didn't have shit economy, you idiot, I'm saying that they were more efficient in their spending of raw materials by creating limited, long-lived products instead of massive amounts of disposable garbage we got today.

>>725092
I thought we were discussing real situations, not how fantasies worked.

>>725085

>producing quality products

The only quality products that the USSR produced were ones that the Politburo considered of vital national interest. And even then, they fucked it up.

And then everything else? Everything that the Politburo didn't think was that important, or didn't really understand? It was shit. It's why the Russian semiconductor field lags behind a full decade from its American counterpart. It's why Russian and especially Soviet cars are used as the butt of bad jokes.

>>725085
>As shit as it was in many aspects, the USSR did use their resources efficiently

Ahahahaha, now I've read everything on this board.

>>725099

Planned obsolescence has to do with acknowledging that technology will become obsolete, and that this will happen in some fields much faster than in others.

Planned obsolescence is much more a tenet of specific industries (automotive, consumer electronics, etc) than a key aspect of capitalism.

>>724785
Totalitarianism
That's pretty bad
I don't want the government dictating my life

I was once a heavy socialist
Then I had my 16 birthday and matured

>>724959
>why they havent planted like they always did

Because they took away so much grain the first time that they didn't even have enough to replant.

You're right in that it wasn't on purpose, but it was still really shitty management. Stalin's collectivization was fucking brutal and devastated agriculture in the USSR for decades. Had they taken the Bukharin approach and not purged the kulaks (capitalist farmers), and hadn't sold their reserve grain to foreign investors in 1932, when the '33 famine came around they'd have surplus grain reserves and competent farmers.

Basically, Stalin went back on the Marxist ideology that socialism can only exist after capitalism has elevated society. Lenin supported this "capitalism first" ideology with the 1921 NEP and it helped with industrialization and bettering the economy. Then Stalin went full-commie, collectivized everything and it was a fucking disaster. Lenin was much better.

Regardless, the only time the USSR was doing well was when they were trying to be more capitalistic, and millions were killed or starved when they tried to be commie. Communism/socialism of all varieties is retarded.

>>724785
How about all the other communist countries that failed... How about corruption and poor management that so often happens when no one is actually managing their own capital

>>725307
You are fucking retarded, Lenin was an idiot who tried to force war communism and hadn't thought out anything. The NEP was just an introduction of capitalism to save the day after how bad he fucked everything up. Literally no thought went behind it and it was just a reaction to a problem caused by his own retarded policy of war communism which caused a giant famine and killed millions.

>>725914
This is all of communism in a post.

Except some countries are still too stupid to do what China has done and what Lenin tried to do.

Communism is a nice idea, but it goes completely against human nature.

Capitalism is the only system that will ever work. It's a sad reality, but that is the reality of the world we live in.

>>724785
>no crime rate
LOLčto?

>>725021
>>725039
One of the most pertinent issues with Communism & Socialism is the lack of incentive to innovate. I know that sounds typical, but there's an interesting trend you can see in industrial/technological development, inventions/innovations, and Macroeconomic growth is very evident even currently. You can tell, just by looking at the right statistics, how biased a particular mixed-economy towards Capitalism or Socialism. In the Scandinavia, France, or even (in a few cases) Germany, and Russia, the growth is in some cases half that of places like China, the U.S., or India.

Places where public policy is the most overreaching has an inverse proportion on technological growth & innovation. This isn't to say that the innovation or growth completely dissipates, obviously that's not the case, but it's important that if Socialist or Communist want the system they need to reconcile this shit.

Jesus Christ I really wish this fucking edgy communist meme that's shitting up 4chan lately would end.

>>724785
>implying its any different than capitalism in the long run

>>724785

OP is a retard who has never lived in a communist country. Speaking from expirience, communism is worse than nazis, osmanian empire, byzanties, etc, etc.

>>725085
Who needs planned obsolescence when you can just drive the same car for 50 years.

>>725965

The beautiful thing about socialism and communism is that you eventually get a job and realize how fucking retarded it actually is. Then you realize that the welfare state we currently have is way too much as it is.

Op and all the others will grow out of it when his mom stops making him hot pockets and his allowance for new fedoras and katanas is cut off.

It's just a stupid phase that all young and unemployed people go through.

>>726666
the true marker of how good a society is. its cars

>>724787
Lol yeah, its hard to have crime rates when there is no money or skilled workers to rate anything.

In theory it's good

In practice it's bad

Someone and their friends will always assume dominant power (dictatorship)

People who want to be rich and enjoy things won't be able too

Just a retarded concept that has been tried, tested and failed. Let's stick to capitalism - something that WORKS

>>724785
Communism is political fiction based on some book.
Capitalism is the product of history itself.

>>724827
Funny thing is, most leeches and welfare pullers identify themselves with socialists/communists.

>>726973
>In theory it's good
>In practice it's bad
/thread

>>725914
Holy fuck you're retarded. War Communism is incredibly similar to what Stalin pulled.

When war communism was a failure, the more-capitalist NEP was introduced, allowing the economy to bounce back to a degree. It was flawed, obviously, but it was better than war communism. It helped the economy.

Then Stalin came along, decided he had enough with the evil capitalist kulaks, and forced collectivization. And guess what? It was a massive failure, yet again.

War communism and Stalinism were total failures. Only when the USSR adopted less-communist policies did they manage to do well and not starve or purge tens of millions of their people, the very definition of a failed state. the fact that communists can look to a failed state as a desired government completely baffles me.

>Lenin was an idiot
Well yeah, he's a communist, of course he is. Stalin was just worse.

>>724785
Ideal on paper, but someone will always abuse the system.

It's funny how people who have never experienced communism thinks it's the best fucking thing on earth

I have yet to meet a person that lived in the USSR and can say positive things about communism

>2015
>still using the term capitalist

you americucks are fucked in the head, have you not realised how fucking big your government is? There is no possible way the US is capitalist when the govt has leeched its way into every nook and cranny of people's lives. keep cucking, cucks

>>727875
It's a Keynesian mixed market monstrosity.

>>727423
its not even good on paper

>>727880
thank you. $16 trillion in debt and the only way out is to spend more!!!! I can't wait for Hillary to get elected and put the nail in the coffin before people start starving

>>727442
My dad lived in Yugoslavia. Said it was shit, secret police everywhere, front yard got "redistributed" to build a dock, etc. He eventually fled.

>>728115
I lived in yugo too, there was bad shit, but as far as communist countries go, it was pretty mild. It is remembered fondly by most people (ie not overly religious or nationalistic) because of the abundance of job opportunities. Communists have also built shit ton of infrastructure, buildings, railroads and industry, most of which went to shit after the breakdown. IlUnfortunately, differences inside were too strong and after Tito's death nationalists got power, which, with some help from outside forces ended up in dissolution.

We haven't recovered well due to war profiteering (similar to oligarchs in russia). Business opportunities are much shittier than in communism, which is a fun thought.

Anyways, I'm not a commiefag, I like capitalism and opportunities it brings, it's just that it's very shitty here.

>>724785
>no crime rate

Okay mang

>>724794
>stats from USSR
my parents grew up in the USSR empire and guess what, they were frequently surveyed as to if they'd rather live in the USSR than any other place in the world.
They said USSR, not because its genuinely better but because if they didn't they'll get imprisonned.
as soon as USSR fell, surprise surprise, a lot of people got the fuck out

Tbh Anarcho-Capitalism would work best, fair wages, no evel government, freedom to make good business, no more tyrany, list go on all fair tbh