/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>70060

I love trading against these people.

>>70060
Are you implying raising the minimum wage would cost jobs? We would just have more people go to prison and work for free!

That the majority of people can't comprehend business models.

Yeah. So? Doesn't mean the minimum wage shouldn't be raised anyway.

>CNN Crossfire

That piece of shit show just caters to libtards who took one econ course in university and dropped out because it was too hard.

It pisses me off but I can still rest on the fact that any of Obama's crackpot minimum wage bills won't make it one foot past Congress.

>>70066
I live in Seattle and I say just that to my stupid Lib friends that back that $15 an hour bullshit.

>>70060

>Yfw it adheres perfectly to the golden ratio

>>70060
>Raise minimum wage to $15
>Competitive salaries diminish
>Nothing happens

>>70148

>Nothing happens


guaranteedreplies.jpeg

>prices raised
>things cost more

Is that how it works? Seems like that's how it would work.

>>70060
it wont matter the gubbamint wants to throw higher minimum wage like companies who employ the lower middle class arent just hiring part time anyway. it isnt about how much they have to pay them is how much is about payroll taxes and cutting benefits

raising the minimum wage doesnt seem to make sense to me since it reduces the number of employed

it COULD work if theoretically companies were slow to adapt in terms of slashing employees / raising their prices, or if we assume that those who work minimum wage jobs do not buy things from the places they work

Raise salary, if no inflation or blocked price more consumption so more need so more job wtf absurdity of this world lets keep people unenmployed and poor yihaaa

>>70186
>self-fulfilling comment

Judging with how companies are hoarding labor to increase their yearly earnings I would not be surprised.

Although last I heard Obamas executive order would only apply to government employees not Mcjobs

>Min wage raised to $15 an hour
>Staff hours get cut in half to avoid giving FT benefits
>In store management will demand pay raises as well

>>70229
>if you raise the minimum wage it raises consumption

i still dont believe that, because the money is just changing hands. unless you want to argue that min. wage workers will engage in more discretionary spending than their employers, which i doubt.

minimum wage increases usually just result in people saving the extra money, not buying muh iphones

>>70136

I hope you were concealed-carrying for maximum freedom while you said that.

>>70060
I think the common intuition might be right on this one. Haven't looked at the CBO report, but they tend to have kind of staid methodologies that might not be good for such a tricky question.

>>70060
When you put it into a model, it certainly seems like we'd lose jobs by increasing wages. However, I can't think of many minimum-wage businesses with the leniency to drop jobs to maintain current labor costs. Most already run the bare-bones minimum employment that they can to keep their business running. The only real areas of job loss are those failing businesses that can't take the hit; they will lose all employment. That, however, is a fraction of what most "experts" are proposing.

I doubt it'd matter either way. With the current administration, I'd expect billions in small-business bailouts to keep erryone afloat.

>>70060
Raising the minimum wage will not truly fix the problem of poverty, but it can help to a certain extent. The major debate is about where the point is at which the minimum wage becomes harmful to the economy.

>>70263
You're assuming that people who work minimum wage are paragons of fiscal responsibility. Which they certainly are not.

>>70263
Of course poor people are more likely to spend their money than rich people, what are you talking about? I don't know how substantial the effect would be, but it may make a difference.

And increasing workers' bargaining power overall is probably a good thing, too.

The real question is whether firms choose to accept lower profit margins but maintain marketshare, or maintain profit margins and scale back on labor. It's hard to say.

>>70286

>whether firms choose to accept lower profit margins but maintain marketshare, or maintain profit margins and scale back on labor.

At the current UE rate, probably the later.

>>70281
you might be right about that, anon

Honestly raising it to $9.50 or whatever won't cost many jobs.
But it also won't help very many people in a significant way since most of the people who work for minimum wage are not the primary breadwinners of the family.

Ummm reduce the necessary hours that is needed considered FT?

On the topic of minimum wage...

Minimum wage is meant to be the minimum earnings it takes to live above the poverty level in your state. If you think you can live anywhere in California at $8/hr with 40hr weeks, you are lying to yourself. A study was done demonstrating it takes at least two jobs at minimum - or 60hr weeks - to support yourself.

Regardless of the ramifications, the minimum wage in California needs to be >$12. Other states, I doubt it should be as much, but for California, this should no longer be a matter of debate.

yes sir, that unemployment wage increase really worked for american samolia (lol)

we dont oppose the hike because were fat rich dudes who hate poor people, we hate it because its bad policy that typically doesnt help anyone involved

if unemployment is sitting at 4-5%, get back to me. but not with the way things are at the moment.

>>70339
You're not supposed to live on minimum wage.

http://www.heritage.org/research/testimony/2013/06/what-is-minimum-wage-its-history-and-effects-on-the-economy

this is a very exhaustive and well-sourced document on why it's generally not good policy. give it a read if you have 20 minutes to kill.

>>70372
unfortunately, it's the only choice for many.

>>70352

>conditions in American Samoa
>conditions in mainland states

>implying they were similiar


No.

>>70306
>At the current UE rate, probably the later.
I'm not sure. Profits are high and it's likely they've minimized labor.

Espcially for something like fast food, where expansion is an important goal, companies may just eat the cost. $15 is a little high, though.

>>70401
KITAA. Great.

>>70401
This

>>70427
>KITAA. Great.

wut

>>70401
Why stop at teenage?
>erryone unemployment rate

>>70437
This just shows how disastrous raising the minimum wage is.

>>70443
>>>/futaba/

>>70401
Not really a supporter of minimum wage increase but that graph is highly misleading. Youth unemployment was relatively flat until 2008 when the crash happened, then it skyrocketed like unemployment of every other demographic. The graph is also federal minimum wage. States often have higher minimum wage and increase it on their own schedule.

>>70454
Yep. It caused a major economic recession and everything. Minimum wage, mang. Totally the cause of that raise in unemployment.

>>70339

I wonder how that study was done? Did they add costs like child care? Health insurance premiums? Internet and TV bills?

Minimum wage isn't supposed to allow people to live above the poverty level. It is supposed to afford you the bare minimum standard of living. Use public transport. Get a small apartment. Don't pay for TV and Internet until you can afford it. Skimp out on health insurance. And most importantly, DON'T have kids. Once you sacrifice enough, you can live on just about everything.

People these days too often mistake luxuries for necessities.

>>70475
>internet
>not becoming a necessity

Paying for TV though, is for suckers.

>>70475
>I wonder how that study was done?
A single male went out and tried to live entirely unsupported in California 2 years ago. Multiple states, actually, but I only paid attention to his trial in California. He needed two minimum wage job to support himself.

> It is supposed to afford you the bare minimum standard of living.
That is what I meant by above the poverty level. My mistake.

>>70475
>Once you sacrifice enough, you can live on just about everything.
And no, you can't. At least in California at $8/hr full-time, you can't. That was the point of it.

>>70487

I do have to agree with this, internet is intertwined into society it should now be considered a utility

Even though there exists public libraries for the internet it is a hassle to visit to use the computer

Mexico is right next door. we must remain competitive. The obama admin is trying to price americans out of low skill work!

>>70544

>legal americans

Eh, just raise the minimum wage to make everyone happy then print lots of money to cause inflation. No big deal.

>>70437
Seems like having a college degree will get you hire with most companies.

>>70610
Yes, welcome to the last 150 years of history.

>>70487
>>70531

Fapping to online chinese cartoons isn't a necessity.

>>70644

Neither is filling applications and sending resumes online (which is the only way to do so now)

>>70630
I just always laugh at those anti-college fags. Or 4chan in general, because they believe you need a specialized degree.

>>70060
majority vote wouldn't change gravity.

>>70506

> in California

Found the problem.

Hint: Don't live in places with high cost-of-living.

>>70655

You've never actually tried to get work, have you? Fastest way to get a job is to be persistent and willing to compromise.

Fuck the minimum wage. Raise tariffs and bleed these traitors dry.

>>70263

haha right. except the average worker spends almost 100% of their money, while the people with real money (top 1%) only spend about 2% of their income and bankroll the rest.

>>70401
>>70437

The unemployment rate rises during a recession. No shit. It's impossible to see the effect of the minimum wage in those graphs.

>>70825
Autarchy doesn't work.

>>70851
Well, you'd have to be doing something pretty special to be using up millions of dollars every year.

>>70401
I actually wanna see a chart of unemployment across countries with their minimum wage. That'll shut up those guys who think increasing price doesn't decrease demand.

>>70148

>Raise minimum wage to $1000
>Everyone becomes rich
>Prosperity and happiness for all

checkmate atheists

>>70825
We should only be raising tariffs on China, but we should be raising them out the ass.

>>70942
What is the benefit of making goods less affordable?

>>70963

Because fuck China. Taiwan's okay though.

>>70963
It's not about making foreign goods less affordable for consumers, it's about making foreign labor less affordable for manufacturers.

>>70997
Raising manufacturer's costs makes goods less affordable for consumers. You can't have it both ways.

>raise minimum wage
>mass lay offs
>small businesses fail left and right

good idea, lets do it

Why do people can't grasp something as basic as fucking inflation?

Also
>minimum wage
>not actually covering minimum needs

Gee, I do wonder what could possibly be wrong there.

>>70974
it would hurt America more than it would hurt China.

>>70060
>mfw I thought from thumbnail this thread was about some crazy successful iPod ripoff I hadn't heard about

I wish the republicans would call obama's bluff and raise the min wage to $15. It's going to take chaos before the retards of America are going to figure it out.

>>71151
fix the money, not the wages.

>>70060

The studies about this subject are inconclusive so far. Basic arithmetics dictates that if an employer has 1000$ to pay his employees, a minimum wage of 500$ would allow for two people to be employed, while an increase in the wages would decrease the total offer of jobs. However, since you are giving extra disposable income to workers, that exerts a positive effect in the economy, which is actually pretty difficult to measure, but that could in fact lead to the creation of more jobs. Many studies have failed to find a correlation between a fixed minimum wage / increase in minimum wage and employment rates / job creation.

>>71226
Have they found anything suggesting that increasing minimum wage increases jobs?

I would think basic supply and demand follow for workers. If you're going to say there's an effect that offsets it, then say it outright and don't go "it could make more jobs" without proof

>>71174
How can you fix corruptness?

>>71274

>Have they found anything suggesting that increasing minimum wage increases jobs?

Yes, in some cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Card_and_Krueger

>In 1992, the minimum wage in New Jersey increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour (an 18.8% increase) while the adjacent state of Pennsylvania remained at $4.25. David Card and Alan Krueger gathered information on fast food restaurants in New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania in an attempt to see what effect this increase had on employment within New Jersey. Basic economic theory would have implied that relative employment should have decreased in New Jersey. Card and Krueger surveyed employers before the April 1992 New Jersey increase, and again in November–December 1992, asking managers for data on the full-time equivalent staff level of their restaurants both times.[55] Based on data from the employers' responses, the authors concluded that the increase in the minimum wage increased employment in the New Jersey restaurants.

The actual paper is right there at the wikipedia sources for you to buy (lel).

However, that's FAR from a rule. Economic policy shouldn't rely too much in generalist economic models, but in studying each case thoroughly. Minimum wage is far from being the only or most important factor that influences the creation / destruction of jobs.

It makes me feel that we should implement a basic income.

>>70060

Even the Huffington Post admits raising the wage is nothing more than populist pandering

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/charles-lammam/ontario-minimum-wage_b_4698374.html

>>71335
http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

>>71374
>Even the Huffington Post
It's just a post the let some guy write, some guy from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

>>71380

Nice, straight to my econ papers folder it goes. I'll read it whenever I have some time. Thanks.

>>71374
I wouldn't trust the huffington post that much, if I were you. I've seen questionable articles before.

>>71335

increasing the price of a good ALWAYS increases demand for said good :^)

>>71478
>not sure if lolbertarian troll or fake-lolbertarian reverse-troll

It straight up doesn't matter. Some countries find amazing success with ridiculous minimum wages, others do just as well without even HAVING a minimum wage. Implement something properly and it will work.

>>71578
>others do just as well without even HAVING a minimum wage
Such as?

>>71335
>>71380
>>71416

How does a study on a STATE increase in minimum wage at all support a FEDERAL increase in minimum wage?

I don't know much about New Jersey but I can tell that $4.25 to $5 is not the same as going from $7.65 to $10.10.

>Raising the minimum wage more than what should be done to compensate for inflation

Fucking retarded. It's minimum effort, minimum skill-set jobs. The term livable wage should be removed. You want to live on the easiest job available to you? Get a fucking room-mate.

>>71619
>How does a study on a STATE increase in minimum wage at all support a FEDERAL increase in minimum wage?
Looking at different states allows for a "control" group. It's still a higher wage.

>>71627
>It's minimum effort, minimum skill-set jobs.
You strike me as a wonderful and caring person who doesn't have his head up his ass at all.

>>71619

I was just showing that it is impossible to completely rule out either outcome. I'm sure the economists working for the government are working hard so they don't fuck up horribly though.

>>71653
>flipping burgers or stocking shelves isn't minimum effort, minimum skill-set

>>71674
You go do that shit for 8+ hours a day.

Shit, I worked in a lab, and just being on my feet tired me the fuck out.

You have no idea how "the other half" lives, and you should be grateful this is an anonymous board, because your ignorance is astounding and will get you treated with contempt by most people.

>>71714
>You go do that shit for 8+ hours a day
Then they'd have a hell of a reason to get a better job and get qualifications.

>>71714
Please tell me you're joking.

>>71740
Try this:
Go down to your local bar and tell people that minimum wage jobs are minimum-effort jobs, and see how they react.

Not even a dive, just someplace middle- or working-class. Someplace where people would know.

But don't be arrogant about it, for your own good.

>>71602
Germany.

>>71714
>Thinking that merely working hard entitles you to something
You don't get paid shit because you work hard. You get paid shit because you can literally be replaced with anyone.

>>71768
How is this relevant at all?

>>71768
Whether someone gets angry at a statement or not has no bearing on it's truth.

>>71796
>lolbertarian
>reading comprehension
Pick one.

>>71797
He didn't seem to believe me.

>>71796
This.

>>71768
Let me rephrase it. Minimum effort, minimum skill-set, and easily replaceable.

>>71744
>get a better job and get qualifications.

Tell me the exact way they could do this and how they would finance it and then I'll take you seriously. Include the specific degree, school, certification, and the area they would find employment.

>>71478
Well, if it's a Giffen good with an upward sloping demand curve that's correct.

>>71813
If eyewitness testimony doesn't persuade you, then what will?

>>71811
>Let me rephrase it. Minimum effort, minimum skill-set, and easily replaceable.
Fuck off, troll.

>>71830
Any fucking industrial certification. Non-destructive testing certs, a basic drafting degree from community college, plumbing, electrician. They'd probably have to live in with a friend while working to save up money but these sort of certifications are not extremely pricey.

Try to answer OP's question without "muh emotions".

>>71866
Not even trolling, if you're making minimum wage you failed at life somewhere.

>>71045

Manufacturing costs rise, but so do domestic wages. The net effect will be a slight decrease in purchasing power for the average consumer, but far more people will be gainfully employed.

>>71866
Easily replaceable is the key here. It doesn't matter what kind of skills you have if a million other people have the same skills and are willing to do your job for minimum wage.

>>71879
>Not even trolling, if you're making minimum wage you failed at life somewhere.
You know how stupid some people are? They're just born that way.

Seriously, try to get out more. You are embarrassingly ignorant.

>>71885
>>71627
>Fucking retarded. It's minimum effort, minimum skill-set jobs. The term livable wage should be removed. You want to live on the easiest job available to you? Get a fucking room-mate.
was the original comment.

>>71866
Well, studies like the one posted before would be nice. An individual sample isn't used in statistics very much for a reason, you know.

>>71890
Studies of whether minimum-wage workers work hard? Good luck getting that grant.

>>71889
>I'm going to tunnel-vision the rest of the discussion now to somehow prove minimum wage should be raised and ignore additional, relevant, arguments.

Get the fuck out of here.

Dumb people shouldn't receive easy money and neither should lazy people. Answer this shit without "muh emotions" guiding your answer.

>>71166
But then they'd be blamed for it.

>>71903
Well, I'd need lots of money, which I can't get from an ordinary job. It's unfortunate that those who want things done usually have to be businessmen. But then I can't study quite enough for whatever I wanted to investigate in the first place.

>>71883
>but so do domestic wages

That's just fantasy. Here are some more likely scenarios:
1) The jobs move to different low-wage country with lower tariffs.
2) Domestic manufacturing output increases through the use of greater automation. (Note that US manufacturing output has been steadily rising for decades with little change in employment).
3) The supply of goods is reduced and prices increase. Everyone is worse off.

employment stems from demand, employers aim to hire enough people to meet customer demand. If a factory's getting a lot more orders than they can handle, they'll invest in additional machinery with more operators to meet that demand, perhaps another mechanic for the new machinery, more people to keep up with product inventory, more people in office to file more paperwork. Minimum wage isn't going to kill off jobs unless it would be cheaper to refuse customer orders, which of course the solution to that is a higher price.

>>71889
Either or bad troll or an idiot.

People who work minimum wage literally can be replaced by anyone even retards. So you arguing that they should get a raise because they didn't go to school or strive to actually do something with their life that they get to get a raise is complete horse shit.

Top lel at you Americans. Australia here with $18/hr and we've got it great.

>>71903
No one is seriously insinuating minimum wage workers cannot work hard. There is no doubt that many minimum wage jobs require an excessive amount of manual and/or tedious labor. However, they rarely have any responsibility or qualifications and can be replaced with anyone off the street in hours. You will not be paid more because they can find someone else willing to do your same job for less.

Raising the minimum wage does nothing to better those people's lot in life. The minimum wage is always $0 and you cannot raise it, because that's how much you will make when a business decides it can't afford to hire you for $10 or $15 or whatever the legions of no-skill no-responsibility "hard working" people decide they ought to be paid today.

>>71919
They're holding up their end of the social contract so society should hold up its.

Be law-abiding and work, and you get a livable life. Really, why should anyone get anything? Or not? Pretty fucking arbitrary. But having these common-sense policies keeps the wheels on.

>inb4 social contract theory is bullshit because muh negative rights

>>71939
You could just talk to someone.

>>70148
>getting any job without a college degree diminishes

>>71933
How? If they concede to let the dems have complete control over a new min wage bill while acknowledging the repercussions, not only will it put a nail in the coffin about min wage being some whimsical money creator, but it would also precipitate the dollar crash that is bound to happen.

>>71982
You're forgetting the shitty media and low-info voters, which are both all the liberals have and apparently all they need, at this point.

>>71999
They can get fucked well the informed bets against the dollar making a killing.

People are stupid, what else is new?

>>71966
Enjoy your higher costs of living then faggot.
>http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Australia
>http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States

>>71982
I tried telling someone about how a certain policy was good for us because a president implemented it and it caused positive effects, but then he said it was the result of the previous president, even though he was blaming a a president for his policies in the same term.

In other words, people don't use their heads much.

>>71969
Yup, muh emotions bullshit since you think everyone deserves a house, free healthcare, a car, and two kids all while working a minimum wage mcshit job.

Fuck off, Socialist.

>>71969
If it weren't for the fact that poor Americans die of obesity instead of starvation I'd say you have a point. The concept of a what a minimum "livable life" is has been stretched beyond belief to include all manner of things everyone else in the non-western world considers luxuries.

>>72007
the ratio of minimum wage to cost of living is in their favor

>>72037
Until it isn't and they raise the min wage again.

>>70339
Stop fucking with it. The reason you can't live on $8 an hour in california is because you did things like put the minimum wage in the first place. When I was 19, I made $8 an hour part time, and lived fairly comfortably. Worked full time in the summer and winter, and got extra cash to buy some nicer shit, like a big tv and some audio equipment.

You have fucked yourself, the only rational thing to do is to leave California if you are poor.

>>71968
>The minimum wage is always $0 and you cannot raise it

/thread

unless you're advocating forced hiring as well

>>72041
what's that based on?

Minimum wage has not been close to keeping up with inflation since the 70's. If McDonald's and Wal Mart could pay minimum wage back then, they can certainly do it now.

>>70339
Pay tends to scale with local prices anyway, so your example of California spreads to other states pretty easily. I lived in a shitty part of the South for most of my life, and although shit was cheaper, pay was low as fuck and raises were also rare and if they did occur it was like a dime raise. It was common practice. I moved up north, and although it costs a bit more to live, the pay went up a little. In both cases the starting wages were miserable to live by.

Working class Americans are dumping the vast majority of their pay into necessities, rent being a huge one. Read an article that in the 80's it took about a week of pay to make rent; that has gone up to about 2 and half weeks of pay now. What would happen with a min wage increase is human resources dickshits concerned with the corporate bonus will kneejerk cut people, usually your slower workers anyway, but with a large group of people having extra money to kick around, sales will increase and these positions will be reopened within a couple of months. This happened back when min wage went up to 7.whatever.

Yes, this will hurt small businesses initially, but this threat has been known for decades. Even if they raise min wage, if it isn't kept track with inflation (or inflation kept track of in general) we'll be in the same situation in ten years with more worker consciousness.

>>70060
Don't care.
Only poor idiots are concerned with this.

>>71968
>No one is seriously insinuating minimum wage workers cannot work hard.
No they were just saying they are low-effort jobs. Have you even skimmed the thread?

Obviously not, otherwise you would have seen the high-quality research suggesting that minimum wage increases have no effect on employment.

>>72027
>implying ill health isn't a symptom of social isolation, stress, decaying norms and cheap food being shit

>>72033
>>>/pol/
From a political economy perspective, avoiding class riots is good for GDP growth. Eat a dick.

>>70908
omg how can we pass dis as law guise

>>72007
Meh, doesn't really matter. Opportunities for growth are great here and there are plenty of options for people to get educated and move above the minimum wage.

>healthcare, no worries
>university loans, no worries, just pay the government back (interest free) once you've graduated and you've got a job
>trades, no worries, people are making 6 figures after their apprenticeship

Not sure why you think an increasing wage gap is a good thing, considering Burgerland has it the worst.

>>70060

It makes me feel like a lot of people need to take more economics courses. And not just that silly Econ 101 that doesn't teach you anything. I mean advanced micro- and macro-economics.

I swear poor people hate money.
They can't stand having extra money in the bank, so they go blow it all on stupid shit.

>>72079
>avoiding class riots
Then do it in a way that won't hurt the middle-class.

>>72007

>I can't into math

>>72098
who's gonna lose their job over a minimum wage increase?

>>70372
Isn't that the whole point of minimum wage? The minimum wage at which a person can live?

>>72037
>implying he put Australia's minimum wage.
Did you factor currency exchange, and not really because you have to remember that they have to buy just as often as you do, sure its a nice wage if you live alone, but even American minimum wage is good enough if you live alone. It is the people who decide to raise a family on minimum wage that screw themselves. It is meant for young people who are training for higher paying jobs and that can be replaced by anyone.

I'm a liberal at heart (socially), but I just can't side with these retards. Having a heart and being financially/economically retarded are two different things.

>>72120
Those very employees that are going to supposedly benefit the most: low-skilled laborers.

The people that are high-skilled laborers will be, for the most part, unaffected. Until, of course, the marginal cost of producing an additional unit increases significantly, and renders de facto inflation.

>>72094
You can do that here to just people don't understand that it means they will have to work a bit to actually get the higher paying job. People here just want the job to be handed to them they don't want to work for it.

>>72136
Exactly. I'm with you on this. Fiscally I'm a conservative and with social issues I'm liberal. Too many "muh emotions" bullshitters who think people have zero fault when it comes to their economic situation. Just hand out money like it grows on trees and fuck the middle-class and people who actually worked hard.

>>72126
Three people in a 2k can certainly live on $7/hour each.
My opinion is that the rent is just too damn high.

>>72062
>what's that based on?
Call it an educated guess. I am pretty unfamiliar with Australian economic policy, so I may be wrong. If I were to assume, I'd imagine that their min wage has went up many times over the years to combat cost of living. I would also guess that inflation and price of living increases may not be fully realized, but once that happens another raise on the min wage is sure to follow. Basically what I'm saying is this is a cycle that will not end until either the min wage freezes or the economy collapses.

>>72115
>Can't into currency exchange, can't into the prices add up moron.

>>72066
I'm the person you're replying to, and I agree with everything you said.

>What would happen with a min wage increase is human resources dickshits concerned with the corporate bonus will kneejerk cut people, usually your slower workers anyway, but with a large group of people having extra money to kick around, sales will increase and these positions will be reopened within a couple of months.
So much this.

>>72133
okay, it's 16.88
the ratio is still in their favor.
>>72153
specific jobs please.
jobs that if cut wouldn't prevent a company from completing a customer order, because then they can't even run a business.

>>72157
Seriously, you belong on /pol/. You have a pathetic inability to control your butthurt.

>>72203
Seriously, you belong in the USSR. You have a pathetic inability to control your butthurt.

>>72179
>All these newly unemployed people will have extra money to kick around
Or did you did you mean the people who managed to keep their jobs? Do you not know how budgeting works? If you have a million dollars to spend on wages you will spend a million dollars on wages whether that buys you ten employees or a thousand.

>>72220
You're the one shitting up a thread about the employment effects of the minimum wage with a bunch of paranoid shit about the lazy poor leeching off the hardworking middle class.

>>72203
/pol/ is for fascists and natsocs now. logic is for the other boards now.

>>72255
see
>>70260

Businesses don't budget their wages at the minimum level. They hold just enough employees to keep that part running - and not a single employee more. You act like there is some surplus of positions that will get axed.

>>72255
you're either gonna have to up your wage budget or not have enough employees to meet customer demands.

>>72257
you're the one shitting the thread with "muh emotions" trying to advocate raising the minimum wage because you sympathize with lazy shitters.

>>72283
>logic

why doesn't the goverment just print more money? greedy bastards are hoarding it all

>>72308
Once again, >>71627 was the original post.

>>72318
Might actually help if they gave it out instead of just giving it to the banks

>>72192

You're right, it wouldn't prevent a company from completing the order, because they would invest in technologies that would eliminate low skilled positions.

And when I say low skilled jobs, I was talking about those jobs that require low levels of marketable skills, or none at all. Read: flipping a burger, emptying a trash can, etc.

>>72332
That's what Helicopter Ben said we should do.

I wonder why he changed he did the exact opposite...

>>72255
Not him, but most huge chain stores are barely running on skeleton crews anyway, no way in hell they're cutting half of their staff. They didn't cut half their staff in the last min wage increase. If you knew as much about budgeting as you claim, you'd realize most budgets have a safety gap. It's rare big chains dump 100% of their employee budget on the max amount of employees, upper echelons are actually given a bonus if they use less of the budget. At most, you'd probably see 10% employment cuts, and that's at most. Budgets are dictated by (typically) district income. When district income goes up, so do the budgets. I've been in a place of related power the last time min wage went up, and the only people cut were people the store was trying to get rid of anyway for being slow/calling out a lot/etc. In a sense, min wage increases allow to cut the fat. Sales do increase, and when the budget's safety gap opens up more, more people will be hired base on need.

>>71478
Go back to /b/ shitposter

>>72322
>minimum wage worker spotted

>>72373
I haven't had a minimum wage job since I was 16, faggot.

I am a professional student, however.

Beyond the issue of 'lazy/unskilled', there's the issue of how many higher paying jobs are available. The fact is that even if everyone was smart, educated, and hard working, people would still be working minimum wage jobs because there aren't enough better ones to go around and someone has to flip the burgers.

What constitutes 'livable wage' is also subjective. In a first world country, livable wage doesn't mean the bare minimum necessary to feed and shelter yourself. It includes common amenities based on standard of living or quality of life in your country. A more prosperous nation should have a higher minimum wage (relative to prices) because the standard of living of all citizens living there is higher.

On the other hand, there is a limit to how high it should go. Used correctly it prevents unscrupulous employers from taking advantage of needy workers. But after a point it just leads to price inflation and the like. That is, you can only squeeze employers for so much.

With all that being said, considering that experts in the field can't even agree on the details of minimum wage I doubt anyone here will have much insight into whether any particular example is too high or too low.

>>72354

>Mere assumptions on companies not laying off
>Ignoring the CBO report which says 500,000 jobs will be lost

>>72382
>Professional Student

Literally losing money. You poorfag :(

>>72342
okay, what technologies are they gonna invest in to get rid of burger flipper?

>>72382

>Professional student
>I.E. I've been living off of student loans for seven years while earning my masters in feminist literature

>>72403
I like it. I'm not a money grubbing sack of shit like some people I won't link to.

>>72408
>projecting this hard
I was in chemistry now I'm doing finance.
You really do need to fuck off back to >>>/pol/.
I'm serious, you're not a good fit for this board.

Anyway, I do need to work. Night.

>>72430
And I'm about to graduate with an offer @ $81,000

Stay poor, "muh emotions" bean counter.

>>72387
>ignoring the words he and others have said
>trusting official estimates after Allen Greenspan
>taking one predictive model as fact

>>72430
Looks like he accused people of being from /pol/ and ran away without giving evidence. Typical.

>>72383
I think the job losses will be more tragic than companies cutting down on burger flippers, it will be the small companies that can't absorb the losses going out of business. the next to lose will be everyone who makes more than minimum, since their wages will be negatively impacted to compensate for new losses their employer is taking some where else.

also, people who have no previous jobs (teens) are going to have an even TOUGHER time marketing their lack of experience since employers will be even LESS willing to train some one from scratch while paying top dollar for the janitor who doesn't know what happens when you mix bleach with ammonia.

>>72444
Is 80k the magic point at which a miserable fuck like you can live with himself? Congrats.

>>72458
>evidence
Wat

>>72405
I don't know. The great thing about markets is that they'll come up with a solution to any economic issue. But to speculate, perhaps a machine that senses the temperature of the burger and flips it over automatically when it gets too hot?

>>72449
>Taking the word of some random poster on 4chan
>Ignoring professionals at the CBO
I don't know. How do you even argue with someone like that?

>>72476
Just the point where I can make fun of future-jobless shitters such as yourself.

>>72488
I'm not rightly sure you can...

>>72449

>trusting official estimates after Allen Greenspan
Right. We should just base economic policy off of our feelings because Greenspan didn't slow a housing bubble.
>taking one predictive model as fact
>Implying every peer reviewed study doesn't point to the same trend

http://www.nber.org/papers/w12663

lel go spout your feelings on tumblr

>>72482
alright, so we're pioneering expensive new technology to cover one aspect of a minimum wage restaurant worker's job. I don't feel we'll be cutting him anytime soon, as he also assembles the burger, fries up the fries and nuggets, replaces the empty boxes of soda syrup, washes the dishes, empties the trash, cleans the grease trap, sweeps and mops the floor, sanitizes food surfaces. Assuming this is a restaurant staffed well enough where he doesn't also have to handle customer service as well.

>>72387
The US is pretty big, if every major store cut one slow asshole I'd say that's around 500k. That's if CBO is right (lol). Regardless, they'll all be back in work when the other millions of workers powerspends their new money.

Raising min wage has always been a bandaid fix, what is your proposal?

>LEL ALL POOR PPL SHUD DIE XDDDD

>>72575

>powerspends their new money.

On their more expensive products and services. Congratulations you solved nothing other than getting us back to where we started

>>72535
if they can't cut anything else, the prices will go up.

>>72468
>it will be the small companies that can't absorb the losses going out of business
This is true (although I wouldn't call it 'tragic'), but it depends on a lot of different factors. The question is whether the harm done by increasing the price of employees is greater or less than the benefit caused by consumers with more disposal income, or whether there won't be a significant difference. Minimum wage increases can be good or bad depending on the context of the economy.

>>72592
>everyone makes assumptions but me
>everything I say is fact

Yes. People who are barely affording rent will buy diamonds and yachts when they can afford rent.

>>72535
If the companies value the technology, then yes the businesses would work on pioneering it. The thing about the investment, or capital, is that it will (generally speaking) give consistent returns. And who is to say that other technologies wouldn't be created to do the other aspects of the position?

Note, I'm against the government forcing a minimum wage upon us, higher or lower. That doesn't mean I don't want people to have high wages. But the best way to get a high paying wage is to get a highly market-valued skill. What are those? I don't know, I'm still on working on becoming one myself.

>>72575
>LEL ALL POOR PPL SHUD DIE XDDDD
dick, you are living under the assumption that we believe what we believe because we don't care about the poor.

we just know their best interests will not be served by collapsing the economy under good intentions and poorly thought out policies.

>>72618
YOU
ARE
DENSE

>>72618

Have you seen a supply and demand graph before?

>>72635
Exactly.

>we just know their best interests will not be served by collapsing the economy under good intentions and poorly thought out policies.

This guy gets it, fuck.

>>72642
Not him, but big capital letters certainly prove your point.

The assumption of an equitable rise in the price of goods is ridiculous. The prices will rise - they always do with inflation - but no model predicts that the price of goods will equal that of an increase to minimum wage. They aren't the single driving force of the economy.

>>72589
probably, but still in the favor of minimum wage workers, and only in industries that rely on minimum wage.
>>72634
I don't think most restaurants have the capital to outfit their restaurants with such new technology. In the short term they'll have to pay their workers more. Who will then spend more, mostly on retail/fast good/grocers anyway, so they'll make profits relative to the wage increase. Probably not entirely enough to cover the cost, but I don't care much about that, they've spread their workforce far too thin for too long for too little pay.

>>72635
No, I'm living under the assumption that when enough poor people go hungry and pissed off, there are far fucking more of them than there are you. I'm also living under an assumption that a good chunk of 4chan is upper middle class nerds that can be unemployed because mommy and daddy have a huge basement for free or regularly listened to daddy's Fox news regurgitation on the drive home from church. If you don't want to be living in the new USSR when you're 45, you'd be well to acknowledge the poor as a huge pool of consumers instead of a huge pool of idiots.

>>71889
>You know how stupid some people are? They're just born that way.
>says the person working for minimum wage

>>72682
some increases in price will cascade to other businesses. they aren't islands.

>>72719
Which could be a good thing. For the US, cars are still a huge goal for working class people. The American auto industry could benefit from this with the right marketing/sales. But they won't.

>>72719
retail and fast food are the endpoints of most industries. Higher costs there aren't going to trickle down. It's not like the price of steel mining causing the price of machine production to go up. I can't think of many other industries that would trickle down that do rely on minimum wage. Factories typically are a bit above min wage.

>>72677
You'd assume that, but you'd be wrong. Some of us are actually fairly successful, though this really shouldn't devolve into an account measuring topic. I'm just saying not everyone here is an unemployed manchild living in their parents basement. Some of us even have real jobs.

>>72776
I actually didn't mean to imply you personally, but if you scroll up, there are a couple of dickshits, and I'd guess they're more common on other boards. Although I don't think I'm wrong about the general populace. Intelligent people on here are the exception, not the rule. Be it not for the few intelligent people, none of us would be here.

>>72682
You're right, not every restaurant would be able to invest in that, and those that cannot would be forced to raise prices, which possibly could decrease sales, because higher-than-minimum wage jobs would most likely not see an increase in pay equal in percentage to that of the minimum wage hike. If the revenue cut is significant enough (meaning, it forces their revenues to dip below the total fixed cost curve, being that which the business cannot alter, as it is fixed), the business will go out of business.

>they've spread their workforce far too thing for too long for too little pay.
>>that's what raising the minimum wage above the market value does.

>>72804
Programming isn't as hard as you think, you know (sometimes). Moot took the code straight outta futaba and used it himself.

The average man is smarter and more important in society than you know. They probably think that much, though.

>>72648

>>72817
>>that's what raising the minimum wage above the market value does.
Nah, labor costs leave a huge window of profit for our franchisee. The average lately has been like 15%. I've always been in favor of higher minimum wage, but getting into fast food management and seeing real numbers makes it apparent as a much more feasible thing. Franchisee wouldn't like it, but he would still be making money.

>>72100
Poor people don't trust banks at all. Go to a low income area and count the check cashing places. I can open a bank account with a $10 minimum balance right now, why can't they?

>>72896
This. My buddy used to own a check cashing place in the middle of poverty land. Made bank for years and years.

I asked him why he stopped.
"I got sick of all the fucking niggers"

He went on to own about 50 7/11s around the eastern coast.

>>72879

If the business wants to raise its own minimum wage it pays its employees, that's awesome. More power to the company and the employees it has. That's what every company ought to do: pay its employees the highest wages it can while remaining in business.

I do not like it when the government comes around and forcing higher wages on employers.

>>72100
You mean like alcohol and cigarettes or shitty weed to cope with the soul sucking jobs they have to work?

>>72983
no one said anything about businesses raising their own wages, of course they won't. You need unions or government intervention for such things. I'm all for unions, not getting one for fast food anytime soon though, so the only other option is raising the minimum wage.

>>72896

It's not an issue of hating banks, it's more of an issue of not wanting to get burned by fees. Most "free checking" commercial banks require a certain minimum deposit in the account, or you'll get charged usage fees. Or they're afraid of getting burned from high overdraft fees. A person who's poor who might not have steady income might just think it's better off to deal with a set see from check cashing places than to deal with monthly fees to keep an account open or if they accidentally overdraft.

>>70060
I don't know anything about the pro/contra of minimum wage. But in my country, whenever the public/private sector raise the wage (especially public), all capitalist will immediately raise their good's price. It's funny because the reason of the raise is to coup with raising life cost. But sadly, this only trigger vicious cycle that lead to hyper-inflation.

>>73033
Ah yes. Unions. They've made Detroit such a vibrant and successful city we should have them everywhere.

>>73101
Unions seem to be working for the Germans.

>>72896
Well for one thing its impossible to garnish an account that doesn`t exist.

>>73101
Come on, you know Detroit is black people.
Unions just represent workers.

>>73154
>implying there isn't money to be made there

>>73159
I ain't goin in there, I've had enough bikes stolen

>>73178
stolen bikes ride faster

>>73133
Did the capitalist rise your good price whenever your employer accept your union's demand?

>>70136
Another sane Seattle person here. It's tough out there.

>>71303
Free press and death penalty for corruption

>>70260

If that were true (not to say it isn't) then all that will occur is inflation. And once that's accounted for your in the same position.

>>70339
>Minimum wage is meant to be the minimum earnings it takes to live above the poverty level in your state.

Says who? Whoever said that? If you want to have more, make more money. If you want to make more money, offer a product or a service in demand. To do that, you need an education. then go to the public schools and ask why they are turning out non-functioning illiterates, 42% of which cannot even name the vice president of the US. This is the land of opportunity, not promise; no one owes anyone else a living.

>>75786
not the guy you replied to and i do agree with you. but public schools are designed to create more people just smart enough to run machines in factories, not people smart enough to develop businesses. in some ways it's not "use what you learned in school" to succeed, but "forget what you learned in school"