/biz/ - Business & Finance

The silver lining is that 2018 is a whole new year. So any losses or gains will balance each other out.

Hope you didn't own any of that shitcoin REQ lmao get REQKT by taxes faggot.

>no posts in 10 minutes

Wow, really? No one gives a shit about this free and accurate information I'm giving to you ungrateful niggers? Sweet.

Thank you blessed anon. How much did that cost you? I will pray for you accordingly

>>6905005
600 dollars for two hours to go over all my shit. I have one of the best accountants in San Fran, highly recommended by my uber rich friends. We're looking into ways to for me to keep my money (made over 1.8MM). We did other shit too but I'm just telling you the crypto related information that I remember.

>casting out
He fell for the meme!

>>6905317

>he's converted to fiat
>pump it

Nice meme, but you dont owe taxes until you cash out.

Even so, if youre cashing out less than 10,000 just dont pay taxes..

>>6906118
except every trade you make is a "cash out"

>>6906118
Yeah, you’re literally retarded. If you bought bitcoin and never traded it and then sell, yes you only owe taxes when you cash out

Every time you trade that bitcoin for anything else, you have to write that trade on your taxes if you live in burger land. And if you think otherwise enjoy being ass fucked by the government and never making it

>>6906118
this is a meme perpetuated to encourage rampant and unchecked investing. You will get ass fucked by the IRS if you behave in accordance to this.

>>6906265
So if someone just wrote down the dollar amount each time they traded on a piece of paper, got audited, and handed it to the irs would they take it as proof? And how about all the people who never kept records of trades because this literally just became the rule?

Literally just gonna pretend I never did anything crypto related and pray

>>6906468
if you've ever used coinbase the IRS has your records, btw

>>6906404
it's on you to prove to the irs you acted in good faith and as accurately as possible. irs is what fucked al capone. you don't fuck with daddy dick irs.

>>6906234
>tfw I owe 300k in taxes from all my runescape gold from 12 years ago

>>6904657
---1/3 of /biz thinks that anything tax-related is IRS conspiracy. They actually believe that low-level DC employees work at 1:30am est.
---1/3 has no idea what is coming for them if they honestly try to self-prepare
---The remaining 1/3 think they are clever and have some scheme of i won't get caught or they don't live in the USA.

I've answered dozens of tax questions as it is job-related. I feel bad for some anons who have no idea what is coming when they go to do their taxes.

I believe that the IRS will be very critical of trades. The crypto market doesn't sleep. The IRS is used to seeing closing prices. They are used to orderly buy/sell information from Edward Jones and E*Trade.....not the hodge-podge of garbage that they are going to get come April.

I am interested though. What did he say regarding active traders? How would one file if they have a huge 100+ page schedule D?

>>6907754
basically they're fucked, is the gist of what I got from the conversation. I trade but not frequently like some of these retarded coin flippers or people with bots.

He did say that if you report some, you should definitely report all, otherwise if they come for you then you will be charged with criminal tax evasion.

>>6907958
From a legal sense, you could hire a tax attorney to file suit on your behalf, you'd definitely be the crypto taxation law trailblazer though. Tax court usually rule in favor of the IRS anyways. You would probably have to claim a $0 basis and short-term gains, or whatever situation they could come up with that has the highest penalty.

>americans

i'm planning on just uploading my shit to something like bitcoin.tax, hopefully this should be enough

>>6908144
i use over 10 exchanges so I have more work to do than you

I'm so fucking confused.
So if I buy BTC, then trade it for LTC, I have to pay a tax?
Or is it I buy BTC, trade it for LTC, then sell it it, I have to pay a tax on the BTC I earned or lost?

so when will binance roll over for the usa op?

>>6908351
If the LTC that you buy has a higher dollar value than the BTC when you bought the BTC, then the profit you made on the trade would be added to your taxable income.

So this is the govs plan to kill cryptocurrency, make it a fucking bureaucratic nightmare and tax the fuck out of it.

What a surprise.

>>6904513
>If you buy bitcoin at $10, then it goes to $100, then you sell it all for Ethereum, you owe tax on that $90 gain.

... except you don't have a gain, you lying kike. You just had a $100 expense when you "bought" the ETH. Net profits of zero because your expenses come right off your gains. How the fuck do you think a company like (((Amazon))) can have a 130 motherfucking billion dollars in sales a year and not claim a fucking dime in profits? Because expenses are deducted out of your profits and they "spend" that money buying more shit.

Why do you oven-dodgers feel the need to come here and constantly lie?

>>6904657
I don't like in your shithole of a country. Here you just get taxed on cashing out.

>>6908718
No, you've triggered a taxable event by selling your BTC for ETH. Whatever profits you've made on that BTC, from the moment you bought it to the moment you sell it for ETH, is taxable.

This is to discourage day traders in stocks, since unlike crypto stocks have real businesses behind them and need to be not fucked with by pajeet shills and pump and dumpers for our economy to run.

There's a reason for this, it's to protect companies and encourage long term investing.

whats stopping people from registering to binance in h.k or Singapore?
whats your answer op?

What I don't understand is if I buy 200$ worth of ETH, trade it for BNB, and buy XLM with it, I'm essentially taking 200$ and moving it across 3 currencies with a gain of 0$. I'm just converting coins. How can they tax a flat conversion?

Now if I buy ETH, trade it for BNB, and buy XLM, then sell the XLM for a 400$ profit, and pay 600$ for a MEME coin, I owe taxes on the 400$ profit???

So fucking confusing. All I can take from this is, is don't trade if you're a burger. Just HODL and hope your coin moons like crazy. And if it does don't sell???

>>6908881

Apparently FBAR. If you own 10,000$ USD or more in a, "foreign exchange", you are liable for taxation up the ass.

God Bless America :')

I'm not paying taxes you fucking spook

Thats right!
You 10x'd on December you owe 40% on those 9x gained.
You didnt cash out before January crash?
Guess what you now have 5xgains from initial investment because you bought DBC or whatever at ATH.

When you sell now to pay the tax you owe on last year's gainz you will be lucky to break even, faggots!
Better hope that shitcoin you hold pumps before tax day!

And the IRS gets all our precious cash out fiat...

Great hoing Burgerfag!

Mericans should just stop trading and taking our fiat to IRS in brilliant taxation plan of theirs!

>>6908947
judging from your previous post, you know very little.
OP, what do you think?

do i have to worry if i cashed out only about a couple of thousand dollars in 2017? should i even bother to report this? or just wait until 2019 and include crypto trading for 2018?

>>6908881
Nothing, unless you reuse the same address for Coinbase and Binance. The tax change is going to take away business from American exchanges and move it to foreign and decentralized exchanges.

>>6909061

I don't know, that's why I'm asking OP.

I have heard that FBAR applies to Binance. DYOR and come to your own conclusion. It's all so confusing and just another way for ZOG to reach into your wallets.

>>6904513
>dec 31st
>end of financial year
nice larp

This is too retarded to believe. Do day traders just sell everything, give up all their gains, and then look forward to having their ass fucked in prison?

>>6909140
I figured so, i dont really expect many americans to consider it, or have the means to. You need serious money and/or connections to make it over there.
OP, anything?

>>6906265
Doesn't that strike you as really fucking strange though seeing as crypto is (in a really, really simplified sense,) different kinds of encrypted data which can be used for a variety of applications? There are many, many things which internet users can do from day to day which could be considered to have a net worth but are never taxed. What is the distinction between crypto and say, a player who sits on Eve Online all day to grind out materials to build assets which can actually be sold for real money? Does the IRS believe that every single ship / item / tool used in this end result should be taxed also, or just the end-result of selling the thing online? I know my example here is pretty weird, but I just want to know how they make the distinction between things like that and crypto seeing as they are attempting to place a tax on data. I also laughed out loud at the idea that the IRS could bounce back a 4000 page tax document. If you record everything you do accurately, that is your proof of good faith. They can go fuck themselves if they bounce it back because they don't feel like it, and if they want to take it into a court of law they don't really have a leg to stand on seeing as they're just refusing to read through the accurate records which you have provided.

>>6904513

>3) UNLESS the year ends. So if you made the bitcoin to ETH trade in 2017, then ETH crashes in 2018, you owe tax on that bitcoin profit and cannot write off your 2018 ETH loss towards that gain. Essentially, if your portfolio is worth 1MM on Dec 31st 2017 at midnight, then January 1st 2018 it crashes to 200k, you OWE TAX on 1 million dollars, and cannot write off the 800k loss, except for 2018. Basically you'll owe the IRS 500k, but only have 200k if you sell everything, and will be fucked. There used to be a law where you could write off losses two years previous, but it was dismantled in december last year.

Ok, so hypothetically, what if American /biz/nessmen made a coin and invested their whole portfolio on Dec 31 into it and it crashes that night. On Jan 1 it returns to their original amount. They can now write off a huge loss to the IRS?

>Anonymously sign up to a foreign exchange
>Anonymously transfer 2 BTC there
>Trade trade trade, pump and dump over and over
>Make 100 BTC and anonymously transfer to your own wallet
>Decide to cash out 1 BTC, move it to a new wallet.
>You become not so anonymous anymore
>Tax man wants to know where the money came from
>Computational cycles in 2014 sir.
>Pay tax %age once and move on.

What's with all this trading taxation you're talking about. Are people actually verifying with their identity to trade? Why? Am I missing something? How fucked am I.

>>6909575
Yeah I mean I've been verified on poloniex

I wonder if it's not too late to just pull my funds out of there and into an offshore exchange and pretend my polo days never happened
Maybe mix it up with monero or something in there too

>>6909515
The logic in the OP is fucked desu. I don't know what kind of accountant OP was talking to, but it's completely unmanageable for the IRS and extremely difficult for them to prove in court due to the way crypto works. You could set up an anonymous wallet and "gift" yourself BTC back to cash out and just write off all of your expenditures as losses or theft by siphoning them out of your exchange or an online wallet. If anyone in this thread disagrees with me and says there's a loophole - please explain how this logic is wrong or how the above wouldn't work, or under what basis they could even charge you with fraud if they decided to pursue it.

fearmongering op is gone, i wanted a fear inducing response from him.

So, is there even a kernel of truth to anything in the op?

>>6909709
You may have a point, however the IRS can just buttfuck you with a guess of how much you need to pay and then YOU must prove that you don't need to pay that much, if you can
Since, of course, the IRS works by guilty until proven innocent

>>6909773
as long as its 20% ill gladly pay it.

>>6907754
Alright you faggot, I'm gonna give you some knowledge on how to not be retarded and how to at least avoid taxes on each trade - I live in Australia, not America, but we still get taxed on each trade as well. You will need to pay the actual capital gains tax, but you won't need to pay the each individual tax

- it doesn't matter what you buy, what you trade to, whatever
- make your millions
- when you go to cash out, put your money through Monero to wipe all previous trades clean. No matter how many elite gubbment agents want to fuck you, even if they somehow get the exchange you used for cashing out to give them your history (for the love of god don't use your an exchange in your own country for trading and cashing out - if you use an exchange from another country, your privacy is safe, but this is just in case)
- find a coin that has similar % gains to what you started with to when you cashed out
- "but IRS, I didn't make multiple trades. It was all in this one coin the entire time, I traded the original Bitcoin instantly and didn't gain or lose anything from it"
- optional: if your country has a rule that halves the taxes if you held the individual crypto for over a year, then wait a year before cashing out and say you held it in that one for over a year for even less taxes

tl;dr use Monero to wipe your history just in case they manage to somehow find your address, which they shouldn't, and then say you only held one coin, and say you held one coin for a year

The only, even remotely, difficult part of all this is to find a coin that had a similar gains % - worst case scenario, just cash out chunks at each quarter of the year or something and keep your gains smaller so it's easy to find a coin each time, and then just say you started from $500 again or something each time, repeat

>>6909719
>>6909765
I'm still here faggots. I'm just trying to inform you of how the real world works.

>>6909851
It won't be though

It'll be like 33% or even ~50%, worst case with state and federal

>>6909874
Do you think the IRS is stupid?

"HURR DURR I BOUGHT 10K WORTH OF BTC THROUGH COINBASE WHICH WUD HAVE TURNED IN2 300K BY NOW, BUT WHOOPS I LOST IT ALLZ!"

>>6909875
still no answer?

What if i start a token linked to a smart contract.

Everyone buys it on the 31st it then releases a massive supply of new coins meaning the value goes to shit.

You cash out realise a loss

Buy back on the 1st

New supply is then burnt

Everyone has there value back -%1 fee

????

Profit

>>6909917
Are you fucking stupid?

You aren't putting it through Monero and saying you 'lost it' like half the niggers who think it'll let them get away with taxes. You're solely using Monero because it completely wipes your trading history as your address is no longer linked to anything in the past. They literally cannot prove you did any trades even if they somehow find your address, and they can't tax you based on speculation. If you give them a coin that is incredibly similar to the gains you made, they don't have an option but to accept it.

Even if the IRS somehow convinces the exchange you cashed out through to give them your address, literally all they'll get is a Bitcoin address that magically stops having history after Monero. If you pay appropriate taxes to what you cash out, they can't bitch. What's that, you put in $500 through coinbase and it's $300k now? You picked up ETH at X time a year ago and it had proportionate gains. It has literally nothing to do with 'being stupid'. They literally cannot prove a single thing.

I'm not telling people to claim they lost shit in a boating accident - you're still paying taxes. You're just paying taxes on something that you dictate and they can't prove otherwise you fucking mong.

>>6910024
But how will you prove that you held that coin if you can't produce any records of you buying it on an exchange or otherwise?

>>6904513
>paying taxes
lol @ americucks

still no answer on singapore/h.k registered accounts, guess its beyond OP's capacity.

>>6910024
Are YOU stupid? This is when they start auditing the fuck out of you and monitoring how you spend your money. You think the IRS is that fucking easy to trick? They are a mafia with the government behind them. You think they're going to buy, "oh we can't track this wallet after a certain point because of Monero"

You'd go to jail.

>>6907103
only buys, report it as a gambling loss, omg my addiction came over me, bla bla bla sob story, fuck.

>>6910129
shut up faggot this thread is about American tax code. get out.

>>6909765
It's all true my creatura friend. Thank God I don't live in the USA.

>>6904513
>tfw I can't fucking wait to make enough to go be an expat in SEA, the only thing I'll miss is family

Singapore pls.

>>6909874
I have stated before. Most /biz/ shitters who have 10k or 20k are not going to have the screws put to them. But to anyone with large 6 figure earnings or more, by going your route, you are either forced to keep your money in crypto, or you risk the red flags when drawing foreign funds into your bank account in large enough sums to buy something useful, like a home.......Paying cash for a home is suspicious for a first time home buyer. Having somewhat routine sums of money coming into your bank account is a red flag. Your lender will do a look-back on your account to make sure the money is from your stated source (a job or whatever you decide to lie about) and that you can afford the down payment based on your income, and that mom and dad didn't give you that money as a gift.

People far smarter than you and I are thinking about the taxation issues, and have not been able to sum it up with one Aussie shitpost.

The IRS wants your money. They are the main source of revenue for a massive government that spends almost $4 trillion each year. Americans should be filing an extension for 2017.

>>6904513
What happens if say I buy bitcoin with $10. Then it goes up to $100. I then exchange $20 of that for ETH. Now I have $80 in bitcoin and $20 on ETH. Does that count as a $10 profit?

>>6910137
Wow sounds like it’s worth paying those taxes to a corrupt government mafia instead of just leaving this shithole country behind

>>6910091
You don't have to 'prove' you held a specific coin in the first place. You don't even have to give them your address. You just have to tell them what you did and they can cross-reference the actual values of the coins at specific times all they like, but they can't find your address if they want to dig deep. Literally the only reason the IRS would ever be able to 'prove' anything is if you told them you got 10x gains through ZRX but you cashed out 50x gains, in which case you would need to validate your claim when audited and prove how the numbers match up. If you give them a coin that had approximately 50x gains, they don't have any choice but to accept it.
The only other way they can prove anything is if they talk the exchange you cashed out from into giving them your address - in which case what are they going to do with that? The history past that vanishes thanks to Monero, despite the fact it really led to Binance, and they're not legally allowed to ask Binance for your history unless you live in China.

>>6910137
You are actually 100% retarded, no joke. What the fuck are they going to audit? The magically disappearing history of an address they shouldn't even have access to? This is specifically why you find a coin with proportionate gains to what you're cashing out. If you made proportionate gains to what you put in and what you pulled out and gave them the coin for it, they can go and research the coin's history all they like, but they can't prove that you're did different.

You cannot legally be taxed unless they can prove that you did wrong. If what you tell them completely adds up and they can't prove otherwise, you are not wrong.

Any of you niggas have any sources for any regulations or legislation or whatever that proves this shit

>>6910268
no, there is none, chimp out, now.

>>6910137
"This is when they start auditing the fuck out of you and monitoring how you spend your money."
That's the point - they can't reliably prove even via a thorough audit that you owe whatever retarded and convoluted fee they would have slapped on you for your trading history otherwise.
And as for monitoring how you spend your money? Are you like 10 years old? Do you think that the government doesn't already track how people spend their money already? At least in when it comes to all other forms of electronic transaction anyway. As long as you aren't a fucking retard about it, they still won't be able to prove anything worth pursuing.

>>6910156
The truth has revealed itself, you don't know.

>>6910243
They'll prove it when you bought an audi but haven't had a job in 3 years. You're engaging in what is called, "wishful thinking"

>>6910217
I never said anything about hiding your money - you aren't moving to a different country to pull out, nor are you not paying taxes. You are paying taxes. You're just not paying taxes on excessive trades, and if your country has a law to hold something for over a year, then you're also getting that benefit. Nothing else.

People ITT who think they actually think the magical IRS gympsiefairy with year 3000 computers can hack Monero to find your old history (which isn't even kept, so it isn't).

I'm not telling people to keep their money in Monero so it's never found, I'm using it to wipe history as you get a completely clean address.

The only people who can get in trouble are the ones who try to /hide/ their money and end up messing up and giving false info that the IRS can then latch onto and say it doesn't add up. You aren't hiding anything. You are playing by their rules. You made one trade over the course of a year and the maths adds up, and now you're paying the exact tax you need to on the value you're cashing out, after having held one coin.

>>6910322
you're right, I don't know your shithole chink country's tax code. now get out faggot and then kys.

>>6906234
Except no western gov will ever ever ever get access to the chink exchanges user records lol

>>6904657
Yeah dude I'm not filling fucking taxes in this shit. The IRS can blow me. As long as I keep holding and not cashing out no will know. I really doubt a sudden extra thousand in my bank account will be suspicious

>>6910330
What the FUCK are you on? No really, what the fuck? Are you even reading shit, or are you just some paid IRS shill?

You are giving them THE EXACT NUMBERS they ask for. If you started with $1k end cash out $300k, you do not NEED a fucking job. You are telling them exactly how you got it, under the exact circumstances you go it. You are still paying taxes, and you are still playing by the rules. The only difference is that you're not paying the excessive taxes for extra trading, because they cannot, under any circumstance, prove you did extra trading unless you're a retard who did everything on one exchange. Even Monero isn't required, it's just a guarantee they will never find your history to prove otherwise.

Once you have proven your findings for how you got a certain amount of money, it is then up to the IRS to prove otherwise. If they literally cannot get proof, they cannot tell you to pay anything extra. Otherwise, literally everyone who has ever cashed out, ever, has definitely been taxed far, far more than they need to because they could have magically made up situations about what they really did.

No really, how the fuck do you function?

>>6910347
You have no answer for it. If i lived in singapore why would i even be posting in this thread
But please, do continue to make fun of said chinks, their coins will continue to moon.

>>6910406
The OP clearly has no fucking idea how crypto works. At this point I doubt he even visited an accountant, or if he did the accountant has been pretty fucking lazy about their research and hasn't had to deal with crypto much yet - which is entirely possible as crypto has only been around for a few years.

>>6910406
You've never made any significant money in your life, have you?

>muh monero wash

They don't need to prove shit, they will simply demand the information from exchanges from you. With the IRS, if they suspect fraud, you are guilty until proven innocent. Then, when they find out you're washing money with monero, it proves criminal intent and you go to jail for tax evasion.

But no, you're sooooo clever. kys faggot.

How does this apply to miners?

>>6910485
I didn't even read your original post.

It's called fucking "fraud" you idiot and you're breaking a shit load of laws if you live in the US but set up your trading in singapore. I don't need an accountant to tell me that.

People do it all the time, but if you plan on spending that money in the US you need to launder it in faggot. How are you people so delusional and retarded?

On TenX you see how retarded this market is.

They will never be able to use a credit ever again. (From Visa or MasterCar) and this broken concept coin is still worth 2.50...

>>6910406
And if you don't want to cash out would you just run your assets through monero once a year?

>>6906404
They were irresponsible even if we weren't talking about the IRS.

You're trading a pair and you don't know the value each way?

You're cashing out from alt to fiat and you don't know how much you made / lost before it got to your pockets? I mean come on

>>6910522
it doesn't apply to anything

this thread is an awful troll, and it you're dealing with huge amounts of crypto you shouldn't have it linked to your identity in the first place

>>6909765
Yes unequivocally.
People here think they can outsmart the IRS when the truth is they're just small first and will be overlooked at best.

Note the value of your trades at each step.

Going from dollar to btc to dogecoin creates more than one taxable event one way.

Haven't checked the whole thread yet, has anyone shilled their tax software yet? "Because it solves the problem so well thanks op!"

HAHAHAHA

>>6910604
Has me curious just how much power the IRS actually does hold over crypto though.

>>6910653
*Small fries.

You should be able to use a service to get it done for you by linking your account if you lost track I want to add

just move to Puerto Rico. no tax

>>6910662
If we're talking Bitcoin they're already paying a research firm to find people. If you're linked to a KYC-honoring exchange you're already easy to find

People in this thread like
>>6910604
Are in for a ride Awakening if they aren't larping

Just trade offshore you cocksniffing fucking faggots.

>>6904513
Did your accountant mention the math involved in crypto-to-crypto trades? Why won't the IRS just tax your gains when you cash out? Makes it easier on everyone.

If any of you want to coin before it's shilled here or a TA on any coin then join discord code

RGUWvvY

>>6910517
But with an anonymous wallet intermediary, when the coins come back to you there's no realistic way they can prove it actually came from you unless you're stupid enough to give the IRS the keys to your crypto wallet. Yes, the IRS is powerful, but you're easily the dumbest cunt on this board currently if you think that they can just go off their leash without actual evidence to connect anonymous transactions coming into your "ID'd" wallet back to you. You could literally just say to them "I left a piece of paper with my public address on it on a park bench, I don't know this random account which has been sending this stuff to me ever since." And they could do nothing about it because they would then need to prove that this is connected in any tangible way to the currency which the audited party is receiving.

Here is a good page for you to get started on to see the basics of how crypto works. Maybe look at a few videos on wallets and how public keys work after.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency

After you have actually made an attempt to educate yourself, you can fuck off to reddit. Then when you make posts on there instead of here, you'll just be a lying troll instead of a retarded faggot and you can freak out all your fellow boomers which would be entertaining for us at least.

>>6910517
>IRS asks for exchange details
>Binance doesn't even give the addresses of the people you've traded with
Wow it's so hard to prove your claims

>okay, this one guy has given us every single thing we've asked for and we literally cannot, under any circumstance prove otherwise
>let's baselessly accuse him of fraud because 'muh feelings' tell me he's cheating us even though he gave us the exact same thing everyone else did - what's that, it won't hold up in court? Fuck it, do it anyway
>we demand you give us proof of your trades
"Yeah I literally traded once and this was the starting value, this was the ending value"
>no, we demand you give us trades directly from the site
"You mean a screenshot from the site? Okay that's cool, let me just edit the source to say the exact values I just told you, because the main exchange I use literally doesn't give me any cryptic information that would be hard to edit"
Absolute worst case scenario, you're forced to edit a screenshot with source, which cannot be proved as a fake unless you mistype an entire new decimal place, and this is all assuming the planets align and they pick you, out of all the multimillionaires cashing out due to crypto gains, despite the fact you've likely given more evidence than most other people, you're still paying all the taxes they ask for, and they can't prove you're lying under any circumstance.

Yeah, I can see why you needed to 'hire an account' you paid IRS cocksleeve. Because you're fucking retarded and don't actually understand how crypto works in the first place.

>>6910739
Are they? I think when we figure out how exactly crypto currency is defined in law you will realize that the IRS is in for an awakening when digital asset that involves cryptography" includes all digital assets. Video games, music, movies, any social media pages.

You think this shit is going to go down smooth for you fucks? There will be hell to pay in litigation and the crypto side has unlimited money for lawyers.

Who exactly is in for the awakening?

>>6910579
You don't need to run it through at all until you cash out. They shouldn't ever have your address. The only reason they would have to be able to find it in the first place is if you decided to cash out in an exchange in your country in the past and they audited you at that time, and at that time you already used Monero once so they'll never find your address. If you're just holding you never need to use Monero. If you're cashing out once a year, then put it through Monero once a year before cashing out.

>>6910846
I was talking about power in terms of being able to point a user to a transaction.

If we're talking law it's currently some nebulous "digital property" in the new tax law, I don't want to tackle that bc I don't know what it means and it's likely to change to be clearer in the future.

I'd put my money on the guys who keep fucking over millionaires with twice our clout and Iq. For the record I don't want the IRS to succeed but they're in the right environment for it.

>>6910952
I bet you've also put all your money on Ripple because you think 'the banks will win XD', right?

>>6910952
Cont.
And if something does happen to change the way we see these assets, legislation is slow. We might be done serving our sentence before the real discussion begins

how does one track trades from exchanges that havent existed in years

>>6904513
>Essentially, if your portfolio is worth 1MM on Dec 31st 2017 at midnight, then January 1st 2018 it crashes to 200k, you OWE TAX on 1 million dollars, and cannot write off the 800k loss, except for 2018. Basically you'll owe the IRS 500k, but only have 200k if you sell everything, and will be fucked.

Land of the free indeed

>>6910996
Nope. I'm only holding btc.
And a small number of altcoins with already existing companies behind them.

>>6911006
They don't. But the IRS will tell you they've got magic year 3000 hypercomputers that can hack the blockchain, so you need to fear them

>>6911045
Chainalysis does and the IRS hired them

>>6910952
They need to define it in law. We will will force you to define it. Once you define it we will have 20 vectors in which to change the technology to be outside of the definition and force you to begin attempting to enforce tax laws on all other forms of digital assets.

You lose basically, unless you want to start coming after little jimmy for his runescape account. Honestly, this is all bullshit though, I seriously doubt the IRS gives a shit about digital assets until it hits fiat. Its never worked this way ever before and the laws have existed for a long time.

It will keep working that way. Or the IRS will be hammered fucking harder anything we have ever seen before, when basically the entire internet decides its time for you guys to be humble.

So be nice and humble ok

Can OP or someone clarify an FBAR and over sea exchanges like Binance? I keep seeing people think they can outsmart the IRS by pumping trades overseas, but it looks like if you go over 10k you're in for some shit.

>hurr durr dont verify

How are you ever going to collect your fiat then?

>>6911066
Chainalysis literally only works for Bitcoin lmao. All the actual money post-2016 gets made in alts and Bitcoin is just a medium to cash out.

NORMIES GET OUT RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>6904513

So I buy 100$ ETH, trade for XRP, XRP shoots up to 1,000$ I owe short term taxes on 900$ profit, even if I hold the XRP?

Seems broken.

>>6911066
It doesnt matter. you can have the biggest most amazing computers ever made. You can have super mega computers.

You need to define digital asset in a way that only includes cryptocurrency and not everything else that cant include any other digital assets.

So lets begin, give it your best shot.

>>6911133
Aren't you concerned about not having more widely used ways to cash out fiat?

I'm interested in what different people think about the whole situation with altcoins

>>6911206
Wait why is that?

1031 refers to "real property" and it was even vaguer before with "property"

>>6911217
I said it's 'a' medium to cash out, not 'the' medium. There's already multiple ways to cash out, it's just that people getting into Bitcoin now will never make it unless they already partially made it before getting into crypto. Chainalysis does literally nothing for the current state of crypto. At best, they find out who bought crypto in 2011 and if they're telling the truth on how much they bought. It does literally nothing for the IRS past that.

You can already pay for things with crypto using places like LivingRoomOfSatoshi, you can already cash out with multiple options outside of just Bitcoins.

>>6906118
did you even fucking read what OP wrote you fucking brainlet?

I talked to a CPA knowledgeable about crypto and what OP wrote is accurate.

>hurr durr if I don't it its wrong

Honestly, how will the IRS even be able to sort through these tax filings to prosecute anyone in the first place? It seems like they've created an impossible task for themselves. I'm actually curious.

Also if I play with pocket change, is it even worth filing taxes over $90 in gains?

>>6911272
So the law also includes world of warcraft gold. It includes ISK from Eve online, CS:GO weapon skins. Real estate in Second Life. It also includes potentially the value of accounts on reddit with kharma? Does it include Steam accounts with lots of games? It accounts for all digital assets right?

Also cut the shit those things are all worth a ton of money. "But those things are not high valued" I am tired of that argument stop fucking using it.

My guess is that it has always technically accounted for stuff like that but it was never enforced. So once you enforce it on one thing the main thing that will happen is you will be forced to include other things as well. Or define how they are different. Once you define those things are different then crypto can be made to fit outside of those definitions.

The kill shot for the IRS will be when the actually force people to pay taxes for world of warcraft gold.

>>6904513
>If you're even a somewhat active trader your tax return would be like 4000 pages, and the IRS would just deny it.
>Every trade is a taxable event
So we just give them a number then? Great, I'll give them my numbers from Coinbase. Done.

On that note, it actually is a strong argument for anyone who thinks we should pay taxes on crypto to also have to pay taxes on WoW gold. I mean that really is a valued asset and it does behave as a solid income. It was designed as a storage of value and currency from its inception. And many people do sell it for real world money.

WoW players SHOULD be paying taxes on those earnings. Its actually not a bullshit argument. Its a real thing.

I dont agree with it, because I think this is all fucking retarded. But it is a serious problem that people can make tens of thousands of dollars in a game like WoW and cash out any time they want with no consequences. Its identical to cryptocurrency in that respect.

>>6911554

>>6911304
Ah of course, along with that reddit spacing comes with a reddit-tier understanding of crypto. Even if the way the taxes traded were declared - every single transaction - you can still use anonymous intermediary address(es) to remove their ability to prove that the gains you are receiving are actually related to the money which could be fed back to you in chunks, and therefore put them in a position where they would have to chase charges with pretty much no evidence whatsoever except "oh, the address he uses in the exchange seems to randomly receive 20btc from this account which we can't verify the identity of to the standards required in a court of law for a conviction to be made."

I doubt that any of this will get through to you, retarded faggot that you are, so I'll put this very simply: You are a retard. You do not understand how crypto works. Stay mad. Stay poor.

>>6911406
It would literally just take them adding a section to the tax code that specifically targets cryptocurrencies by name and defines them a certain way.

HORSES are in the tax code. Livestock is mentioned by name. You are wrong.

>>6911554
If WOW farming became rampant in the us they would make a publication clarifying that and look for back taxes to charge.

>buy steam games before winter sale
>they all go 80% off from the 25th to the new year
>80% LOSS! TAX DEDUCTIBLE
>get refunds on Jan. 2nd
Wew

>>6911584
So any new currency we make wont be in the list? LOL

What if its not technically a cryptocurrency anyone, what if its a service token. What if there is no easy definition because the technology is changed in some way.

> HORSES are in the tax code. Livestock is mentioned by name. You are wrong.

No I am right! This is exactly my argument! My point is that just because its in the law doesn't mean it will be enforced. And if they do decide to enforce it we can force them to enforce it on everything which would be the second coming of hell.

> >>6911613
>If WOW farming became rampant in the us they would make a publication clarifying that and look for back taxes to charge.

Isn't it a 2 billion dollar industry? Its pretty fucking rampant man. You cant even play an MMO and escape the shit for more than 10 minutes at a time. Its absurdly common.

The IRS just doesn't give a shit until its time to cash out.

You guys have to stop with these half baked arguments and look at the reality of it. Crypto is not the first time this has come up. Its been going on for more than a decade now. Crypto is just the next fad and its going to be the same shit all over again.

>>6911732
Iirc most wow farming
Happens outside North America. It is a big industry in china.

>So any new currency we make wont be in the list? LOL

You're right, so long as it is different enough to not be defined. So you held 3000usd in eth and you moved it to bizcoin wallet? Good luck preserving that value with your laundry coin.

>>6911843
>Happens outside North America. It is a big industry in china.

Where do you think they get the most of their gold? They get the gold from top end players in the west who sell it at a premium. Then they turn a profit by jacking up the price.

The ones who do all the annoying spam and shit are outside of the country but the gold is coming from the US. American players who play the games non stop making shit tons of money from this kind of shit. There is an economy and its a very interesting topic actually. If you look up the top players in the world you can bet your ass many of them are sitting on 9999999999999999 gold and shit. I remember Blizzard had to raise the max amount for cataclysm if I am not mistaken. That was years ago.

> Good luck preserving that value with your laundry coin.

Lets say the IRS goes full ham and fucking full retard on this. And someone creates a coin that is outside the definition of tax code. Maybe some kind of insane fucking polymorphic setup where definitions basically fucked.

That coin would explode in in value, especially since the only places to get it are on decentralized exchanges lol. Maybe its a currency only meant to be used for a video game.

Welp, Id be pretty comfy holding that shit anon.

pretty sure we don't have 3) here in krautland, wtf is that shit

>>6904513
if i take a loss does the irs owe me money?