/biz/ - Business & Finance

yes to all i dont know why more neet dont do it its basically free money

>>675702
Probably because you need at least $25,000 to start and something like 90% of day traders fail in their first year? Just a thought.

>>675700

yes I started off with 45 dollars and made 100k last year and it just keeps going up.

>>675703
yeah if you're retarded

>>675703
You don't need $25k if you're not trading stocks. Plus you can get 100:1 leverage on something like futures or forex. What could possibly go wrong?

>>675700
>Just curious, do any of you make good money from day-trading?

No. It's just not possible without millions in capital, and anybody who tells you otherwise and that they succeeded is a walking example of confirmation bias. If a hundred thousand people try to day-trade in a year, and their risk/reward distribution matches the market, then you'd expect that 15% of them can manage 25% a year or better. Even with random chance, that means that a half-dozen will manage it for five years in a row, despite lacking 0 skill.

You can't make it, you're better off indexing.

>>675702

see man heres the problem. I'm fairly new to using /biz/ and sometimes I can't fucking tell at ALL if people are being serious or not.

Are you being serious?

And if you are may I ask you some more questions?

>>675703
I am aware you need at least 25k. I'm literally working my ass off to get 30-40k starting money in which I will use to trade. BUT before doing so I will obviously research the living FUCK out of every aspect to do with business/stocks.

I honestly feel as if I would be good at trading stocks. Primarily because I have adhd.

>>675709

god damn. So many conflicting views. I get polar opposite responses

>>675713

Put it this way. Warren Buffet, the greatest investor on the planet, can barely manage 20% returns per year. Eve if you're as smart as Warren Buffet, which is highly unlikely, then you'd need to have at LEAST $750,000 to start with in order to make $150k per year, and if you had so much as a single bad year when you start, you're facing a permanent capital loss.

>>675717

ok so whats with all these people in other threads saying they make decent money trading stocks

>>675717

and i met some kid on omegle a while ago (months ago) who is 19 and started trading stocks at 17. The dude has his own house right now

>>675717
dont listen to this retard

the reason buffet struggles to capture 20% gains is because he's a fucking billionaire

>>675728

jesus, see.. now someone is saying something ELSE.

I don't know who to fucking believe anymore.

Of course I'm not expecting to make huge money right away, of course I understand the concept of having risk capital and the fact that I'm going to have many failures.. but... you know what, fuck it, can you just answer me this.

If you had to to list a few characteristics of a person who is very good at day trading. what would you list.

>>675706
How much have you made? Just curious.

>>675711
>I'm fairly new to using /biz/ and sometimes I can't fucking tell at ALL if people are being serious or not.

>Are you being serious?

underrated post

>>675700
>day-trading
This is 2015.

Can you tell me off the top of your head what the derivative of 10x is? Do you know what command you use to include a module in a Python script?

If you can not answer these questions, you are not anywhere near ready to daytrade.

People don't daytrade any more. Or at least make money doing it. What can you do that a computer program you write can't?

>>675773

read news

>>675777
just because you can't write a NLP program doesn't mean others can't. you're out of your league

>>675700
Literally no one in the world makes more than a million per year day trading. Unless they're retired with tons if experience behind them. And even then, not very likely unless their principal is 10 million +

there is no book in the world that will teach you how to be a trader. literally the only thing that can help you become a trader is experience. its one of those "entry level jobs: 3 years experience required" situations.

I advise everyone against getting into trading. it sounds really cool but you're probably going to blow up your account and if you don't its because you got lucky, not because you're smarter or more skilled than everyone else. people can't handle hearing that though, take it as a challenge, and try their luck anyways because they heard about some dude who made a shit ton of money buying options and attributes his success to skill over luck.

I made 19k last month day trading.
Making $500 a day is easy, you don't even need to take any real risks. Most stocks will fluctuate 3% over the course of the day from the low to the high. If you can invest 20k then buying in on anything that moves 3% can get you 10k a month easy.

>>675955
>Making $500 a day is easy, you don't even need to take any real risks.

rofl spoken like someone who doesn't understand what risk is.

>>675962
Spoken like someone making 200k a year and never taken a capital loss on any week in over year now.
Day trading holds very little risk. Much less than swing.
If your losing money at day trading and think it's a risk issue then you need to have better stops in place.

>>675700
OP, here's my advice to you
become a tradie (construction/renovation, electricity whatever), earn good cash and live frugaly, once you have a good amount of initial capital start indexing, reinvest all revnues and add to it from your disposable day to day income, and basically do that until you're generating sufficient revenue to your liking

Cut and paste from the archive:

http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/behfin/2004-04-10/barber-lee-liu-odean.pdf
http://www.investorhome.com/daytrade/profits.htm
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean/papers/Day%20Traders/Day%20Trading%20Skill%20110523.pdf
http://www.iassa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/journals/075/iaj-75-no-3-ryu-final.pdf

Day trading is a quick trip to poverty town.

>>675969


wtf you make 200k a year from day trading?

>>676003
Before taxes, but yeah. 200k

>>676026

I'm so fucking confused man. I get people like you saying that day-trading can be successfully done and it can potentially make great money, then I get people saying nobody day-trades anymore its a thing of the past you will lose all your money blah blah


Help me out here please.

>>676026

What makes a good day trader. What are some fundamental characteristics in a person that usually sets him apart from the 90% of idiot day traders who lose money.

Being logical? Eradicating emotion based choices?

>>676040
Well, I've found what I believe works. Been doing it for nearly 2 years now. Was hard to get going but now it's smooth going.
I've got an employee stock purchase program that gives me 15% discount. I hold those for 6 months before selling and moving into more day trading leverage.
And then my day trading profits go back into stock purchase. It's a cycle now but it took over a year to get going and even longer to prefect.

>>676061

alright well I can't really do anything of that caliber, so I'm pretty much fucked, whatever

>>675717

this.

the handful of people who can make it day trading work their assess off in study and research of the market, and they are pretty smart to boot.

It's not far off from trying to make money playing poker.

It can be done, but few can make it, and most wouldn't recommend it as a career choice.

plus, like lotsa people have said you need at least $50k or so to start with to make money off of.

yur better off going long on big stocks, or doing index funds.

>>676040
How bout you ignore what the children of /biz/ have to say and read what actual financial researchers have to say. I mean, c'mon man, experts have been studying day-trading for decades. The studies are out there, including what I linked above.

This isn't a question for serious debate anymore. No credible financial expert believes that day trading is a viable long-term strategy for making money.

So believe them, or believe what an anonymous 12-year-old on an anime message board tells you about his tremendous success.

>>675955

ha.

gonna need some proof fagt.

oh wait this is biz, so you won't post shit.

>>676073
If I cared at all about having followers or people to brag to then sure.
I'm in it to make money not prove myself to anons. If I had people interested and following me you can be sure I'd use it to make a pump and dump play and make money off them if I could.
Stock market isn't a place for ego or emotion.

Swing trading is alright, though. Right?

I tried my hand at binary options trading as a total pleb with only a couple hundred bucks. I fluctuated a bit on $10 and $5 trades but if I actually had done my homework, I likely would have been more profitable.

>>676097
As a day trader you have no reason to swing. You'll either take your profits or hit your stop.
Only time I have swing traded was on earnings reports and I rarely do that, not my thing but some stocks are worth risking it for. Like Q1 auto related businesses.

>tfw watching youtube vids about filthy rich day traders knowing they're one in a thousand and that i'll never be them

>>676117
Money cant buy you happiness anon

Just a more pleasant form of misery.

>>676121

this is so false my god

>>676122
Go away Jew.

>>676117

ok but heres the thing, what sets those day traders apart. what makes them unique. What skill set do they have.

>>676121
next you'll tell him to just be himself.

>>676123
Jews are welcome on /biz/ go away /pol/

>>676126
>be himself
I see what you did there

>>676125
i don't know man ;_;

>>676121
>implying implications

i am a miserable NEET and i flunked (i'm from a country with a matriculation exam so at least i can take it externally whenever)
if i could just pick up 1000 USD and start daytrading it into millions right now on my computer i would

>>676131
i flunked highschool*

>>676125
All you need is working strategy and the fortitude to stick to it.
If 51% of the time you make $1 and 49% of the time you lose $1 then you've found a way to make infinite money(statistically speaking). The market doesn't really work like this however the lesson is don't change a working strategy just because a couple down days.
Beyond good fundamentals at reading charts and trends you'll need to be a fucking robot on the emotional spectrum. Get tilted even a little and you could lose weeks worth of progress.
Pre-existing wealth doesn't hurt either. Believing your lucky or holding a position out of fear or greed is the fastest way to be part of the 999/1000 failed day traders.

>>676089

yeah you're right. I understand. Keep making all that money trading man.

real glad you posted some of your experiences and knowledge in this thread.

>>675708
>What could possibly go wrong?

>>675730
>If you had to to list a few characteristics of a person who is very good at day trading. what would you list.

- Be a computer

Computers do this shit around the world now. Specialised, machine learning computers that detect subtle trends in the market to exploit arbitrage opportunities. They do millions of computations that might take you a day to do.

Are you better than a computer at arithmetic?

You could learn the shit out of this stuff and build your own machine learning computer, but if you can then you'd be getting job opportunities that far exceed $150k a year.

hey, i'm a hedge fund analyst for a firm in mayfair and I got the job thanks to my experience day trading while studying at uni. I managed to make a 90.4% return on £5k capital in just under a month. Hard work, but research the companies you're trading thoroughly and the most important factor is having a risk/reward ratio that is heavily skewed in your favour, I was using at least 1:3, usually 1:5. Meaning that for every 1 unit of capital I would gain between 3 and 5 if I was right. Hope that helps.

>>676270
>People talking about algos like they are some insurmountable mountain.
If you are able to read charts and make favorable trades then your basically able to make an algo that follows your pattern. They aren't that complex, they just follow the preset conditions you give them.
As for learning machines I'm just gonna come out and say you've probably got no idea what your talking about or probably ever even seen one for that matter.

>>676304
I'm a mathematician that studies that kinda shit. Not specifically machine learning but most of the mathematics that goes with it.

There is no 'your pattern'. They exploit arbitrage opportunities but detecting patterns most humans couldn't recognise given so long that by the time they can recognise it the pattern is no longer valid.

The whole 'find a pattern and exploit it' thing briefly worked maybe in the 90s but the big financial firms are all over that with some of the best minds in the world.

>>676304
Do you know of any good forums or something where I can learn more about algo trading? I'm more interesting in it as a programming project than actually making a profit

>>676344
There are plenty of patterns you can trade on reliably. I know I guy who trades based on weather forecasts alone. Basically watching for droughts and rainfall outside of season.
He makes a fair return off agricultural stocks.
No doubt computers are very powerful tools, but that's no reason to assume we can't out trade them.
Many things can't even be easily quantified or weighted. Things like splits can be good or bad and usually need human interpretation to decide, not to mention investor unease can play a large role in the market performance on any given day.
There is no learning machine out there that knows what to do when Buffett names his successor or how to manage funds when a new car is announced. It's entirely up to public opinion what happens, it's not really calculable. Things like that computers will never be able to replace, at least not this century.
I do agree in some ways, computers are a large part of the market now, that can't be denied. But it is questionable how good they are. Take something like the flash crash, complex high frequency trading doesn't always mean profits.

>>676371
Most quant forums will have pieces you can gather up, learning the api so your algo will actually interact with your software/broker will probably be the hardest part.
Not many people will be willing to share their actual algorithms though, but like I said, you should be able to find pieces like rsi predictors or macd triggers/backtesting.
If your really lucky you might find someone willing to share logs, the communities I've seen tend to only trade code segments, very little is given free.

If you NEED the money don't daytrade
you will go broke

>>675801
>just because you can't write a NLP program doesn't mean others can't.

Absolutely. NLP programs are one of the main bailwicks of black boxes. While he's hitting the link to load the news story, some program has already read the story, done sentiment analysis of it, sent a trade signal and has done a sale. While he's reading the first sentence, the market has already moved. He DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THIS CAN BE DONE, and is being done, yet he thinks he is going to beat the market.

You can beat the market - doing long-term fundamental analysis. Not as a day trader - unless, as I said, you can answer some basic math and programming questions without Googling.

>>675703
>>675708
>>675711
You don't actually need $25k to daytrade. It's just that if you have less you can only make 3 daytrades in a 5 day period. You're just limited. You can still do it.

>>675918

Yyyyeahhhhh you're an idiot.

>>675730
Someone with a lot of money to start who has the emotional control of a Vulcan and is highly intelligent. Now you asked for characteristics of someone who is VERY GOOD at this. You don't have to be an android to daytrade. But you do need emotional control, research, intelligence and a decent amount of starting capital, since you're typically going to be capitalizing on small swings in price. And the people saying it's not possible are just naysayers. Bringing up Warren Buffet in a financial discussion is like bringing Hitler into a conversation about ideology. Once you've hit that, you know logical thought has disappeared. Warren Buffett is a unique case for ANY demographic, so he's not a good example. There are tons of successful daytraders, they're just not usually famous.

>>675773
>People don't daytrade any more.
That's simply not true.

>>675918
>He knows everyone who daytrades

>>675939
>you're probably going to blow up your account and if you don't its because you got lucky
That's just not true. I'm constantly fascinated by the sheer number of people who can nuke their accounts daytrading. It's actually not that easy to do. You basically have to either ride a stock to zero, which almost never happens unless you picked some crazy shell company scam or you have to trade on margin in a really irresponsible way. You are right about the experience and practice part.

>>675969
>and never taken a capital loss
I'm curious how you managed that. I can buy the $200k a year is possible. But never taking a loss? That stretches belief.

>>676040
Here's the thing you need to know about /biz/. The people who bitch that daytrading will make you poor are people who don't do it and who I strongly suspect had bad experiences. When you find out what they did, it was typically act like a retard and now it's a serious case of sour grapes. Daytrading is high risk/high reward. If you're afraid of risk, don't daytrade.

>>676066
Lol, you're not fucked. That's just what that guy does. Everyone finds something that works for them.

>>676069
>It can be done, but few can make it
After having read how many people are against daytrading and then finding out how they behaved while they were doing it and talking to people in real life also, I suspect the major reason most daytraders fail is because they're complete idiots who don't know what the fuck they're doing.

>you need at least $50k or so to start with to make money off of.
You REALLY don't. No. Sure it'd be nice if everyone had $50k to start off with. But you really do not need anywhere near that much to daytrade with. It just makes it easier the more you have, especially to scalp.

>>676071
>No credible financial expert believes that day trading is a viable long-term strategy for making money.
Jesus Christ, of course they don't. That's just because most people are irresponsible idiots who don't know how to manage their money. Just look at how many people are drowning in credit card debt. Does that mean credit cards are bad? Fuck no. It means that millions of people are just raging idiots who can't control themselves and have no business handling their own finances. Just because most of the population are retards, doesn't mean the intelligent have to be cripples.

>>676117
Practice paper trading. Then enter the market and behave like you have a lick of sense. You never know how successful you'll be if you never try.

>>676131
>1000 USD
You'll want at least about $5k

>>676153
>you'll need to be a fucking robot on the emotional spectrum. Get tilted even a little and you could lose weeks worth of progress.
God damn this is so fucking true.

>>675720
Well for starters you're on biz, and these threads are made about once an hour.