/biz/ - Business & Finance

Fine. A nitpicky note is that the S&P500 is an index, not an index fund. The fund would be something like SPY.

Also, the "how do I get rich" threads are mostly intentional shitposting. This won't stop them.

its a good start, this fucking thing should just be sticky'd

>>651496

not bad for investing, but I think a "how to get rich" should be made up of:

a) finding something you are passionate about and good at
b) the route to gameful employment in that path
c) tips for securing the highest possible income in your career path

investing has always been a secondary thing to me. People that just have a small sum of money and turn that into a fortune via investing are a very very small group.

>>651496
Add 6 month emergency fund and sticky this, 99% of everyone will have something to work towards forever and never achieve. The circle is complete

Nice and straight to the point. It would be nice to include a reference to the recurring threads, but then I realized that generals aren't as easily identifiable here as they are in other boards

>>651496
Complete crap. Job first; investing second. Nothing on emergency funds. No allocation advice. No tax considerations. Zero discussion of 401k or Roth plans. I could go on, but you should get the jist.

I know you meant well, but nope.jpg.

If this gets stickied, /biz/ is confirmed for crypto-containment shit board. We deserve better.

>>651577
I support this post

>>651577
Well, in a way I wanted to include more, but I thought it'd be too large then.

Stuff like allocation advice is outside the scope of it, and tax consideration depends heavily on the reader's country of origin.

Think of it not as an "investment guide" because it's certainly not.

>>651588
The problem with you approach, to be frank, is that too little information is worse than no information at all. Your chart is not conducive to intelligent financial decision-making on any level. Nor does it -- in any conceivable manner -- answer the question "how do I get rich?" Consequently, with respect, your chart is poop.

>>651599
OK. How do we make it not poop then? Let's try to stick with a "beginner's first look at finance" approach to it.

I still object to tax discussion on it, but I've added an emergency fund section.

I really liked your idea of allocation advice, what do you think we should put?

>>651606
>How do we make it not poop then?
Someone with the qualifications, knowledge, and experience to make a helpful sticky would not need to ask this question.

Sorry anon, you are not the chosen one.

>create a budget

Even this is something that most people don't know how to do.

>>651608
Here I disagree.

Anyone might be the chosen one.

I doubt any single person could do it though. Stickies on other boards are made through cooperation of the posters. This should be no different.

That's why I'm asking for input, in fact, I'd love it if someone who is actually good at design would do the actual look and feel of it, and if we as a board could provide information for it.

>>651577
>Zero discussion of 401k or Roth plans

because everybody here is from burgerland

>>651496
I save at least $250 a week and still feel poor as fuck.

>>651496
seems pretty basic, I like the dollar bill green and gold layout

1: boil down what you have into key points, it should be in the form of "let me make a quick point as concisely as possible, this is is important and here is how you can find out more" then it moves onto the next point, punching them in one after the other, that makes a good infographic

2: then add more, especially useful links, khanacademy finance, sec filings on nasdaq.com, finviz stock screener

3: add some advice against scams, make it clear that multi-marketing schemes are almost all scams then instruct them to find out more about them so they can see the warning signs of what a scam is and how people are lured into them "OMG WOW SO EXCITING WE'RE SELLING ENERGY DRINKS SUCK MY DICK", also a little about pumped and dumped stocks, short squeeze, dump and dilute

4: warn them about "self-help" books like "rich dad poor dad", tell them that time is money and they would probably be better off reading text books and wikipedia articles on options etcetera

5: then recommend some books and give brief reasons why they ought to read books like the intelligent investor, put them in order of importance

6: the importance of research and good critical thinking skills, being biased and putting aside any prejudices you have avoiding survivor bias and confirmation bias, the emphasis that needs to be placed on accumulating information before you start leaping to conclusions, stock market research has a very good system of validation, either your predictions come true or they don't, it can help craft you into a better person as well as make you money

7: talk a little about psychology, philosophy and motivation, life is short etcetera, how personal problems might have to come before any obsession with making it big on the stock market

8: As well as finances you might want to talk about starting your own business

>>651496

You don't get rich by reducing expenses. Homeless people might have expenses of $0 but they aren't getting rich anytime soon.

>>651687
These are all great ideas, thanks!

One problem I see is that it might get a bit too large. Any ideas there?

>>651695
you don't have to dwell on any of these points much just kick them in the right direction, if they need to look up paragraph 8021 chapter 92 of the joint committee on taxation subsection in the internal revenue code you don't need to look it up for them, just give them a vague idea of how you learn and research things and they will figure it out on their own eventually

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

>>651687
>being biased
unbiased*

>>651707
So do you think I should remove the text under the titles? So instead of explaining "spend less than you earn" I should just leave it as the title and move on?

>>651496
This guide helps nothing. It's like that sentence "Just be yourself :)". Total bullshit.

Terrible design too. Not uniform in any way. Spacings, fonts, grahics totally way off and not uniform,

>>651716
>Total bullshit.
I mean it's just too broad.

>Save money and you become rich!
no shit

Well, I've started a new draft. I've cut down on the text, and sectioned stuff into categories. This way I can fit more information, albeit less detailed.

Dont listen to the fuckwits here OP, you are doing something good for the board

>>651608
Do one yourself then...

>>651725
Well here's the second version, based on some of the feedback in the thread.

Personally I like the original better. Yes, it's more basic, but also more detailed. Feel free to comment and criticize this one however.

>>651774
This feels like a good start.
Again S&P 500 is an index, not a mutual fund, try:
> Index funds are a great way to start investing. SPY, which tracks the S&P 500, is the most popular.

I'd also add
Lessons for corporate america: the essays of Warren Buffet.

Add a section about an emergency fund: it doesn't matter if the image becomes too lengthy: most stickies are quite so. Or you could divide it into two images.
> An emergency fund should be used only for medical expenses or as an unemployment insurance. As soon as you are able to normalize your income, your first months savings should replace the emergency fund in full. A suggested measure for the fund is 6 months to 1 year of expenses.

>pic related, official biz mascot

>>651608
Well, he is still taking the Socrates approach of saying he knows nothing which is respectable in itself in my opinion.

What you can do however is tell him what he can do to gain the knowledge to make the sticky. This will not be for him to learn enough to make it but rather put your instructions there which would be a good starting sticky until someone improves it.

>>651867
this.
stickies are generally common projects where you have mostly three roles:
writers, who unload OC
correctors, who delete mistakes, and improve on what was done
synthesizers, who collapse the whole into a readable entity

Why doesn't /biz/ have a more formal sticky along the lines of /fit/ or /k/? I'd be more than happy to contribute writing, although I don't know how to set up a wiki or anything.

>>651496
Good work OP keep it up.

Make sure you change the s&p500 bit to an actual index fund.

We've been arguing for a sticky for ages especially with the recommended book list.

>>651927

This would be fantastic. I support this and the OP.

>>651496
Your link should be to https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started

Not Investopedia. Investopedia has tons of abstract information that has no relevance to the average /biz/ user. The link I provided has the exact things you mentioned plus other good tips (how to reduce taxes, asset allocation, buying vs renting etc.).

>>651496
>Rate my "how to get rich" infographic I made for /biz/

Use common sense/10

On the other hand, a lot of people seem to be lacking that so maybe it aint too bad.

>>651774
Great stuff OP, put this shit up on the sticky and you will forever be engrained in the history of this site. And you will rid us of retarded threads.

>mfw in my time of browsing /biz/ it's actually gonna go from dogshit to decent

>>651948

I'll make a 'sticky development thread' tomorrow, weds or thurs night, depending when I have time off work. Hopefully some people help out!

>>651676
I spend $250 a week on student loan payments and am consequently and actually poor as fuck. But man, I'm about halfway done paying that shit off. Can't wait to be debt-free.

>>651774
>>651774
Your personal finance bit doesn't make sense to be honest as budget, save and be frugal are the same thing: "Live below your means". Your investing bit is lacking and doesn't need the research and be objective shit. Researching is automatically a subjective process and being objective it pointless as /biz/ users are idiots. Just have sound investment advice and nothing else (index funds, asset allocation, re-balancing etc.).

Get rid of the books section entirely. And for the love of God if you're gonna have a books section don't include Graham who admitted that the methods in his books no longer work and suggested investing in index funds. Security analysis (the book and the term) is pointless for everyone except those doing this professionally.

Your links are shit and full of impractical information. Just link to

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started

EVERYTHING that you're trying to say has already been said by the Bogleheads community. Bogle was the one who invented the first Index Fund and Vanguard (his mutual fund) was the first company to provide an index fund to the public. That as well as all the the information you need about personal finance is provided by the bogleheads community for free with the link I provided.

Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

>>651673
>burger land
I kek'd. Everyone hates us so much

>>651968
Seconded. Bogelheads is a great source

>>652016
Cool story bro

>>651496
dumping biz related infographics
1/5

>>652060
2/5

>>652061
3/5

>>652065
4/5

>>652067
5/5

>>652069
god dammit

Nice job, OP. Fix the s&p is a fund thing.
What I would add are brokers to use and funds.
In Scandinavia Nordnet and Lynx are the best. In Finland in particular Seligson is the best for ETFs because lowest costs(interest on interest).
This depends heavily on the country, though.

>>651520
is the emergency fund supposed to be:

>6 months of living expenses
or
>6 months of income

my goal is to have 1 years worth of income as an emergency fund.

>>652082
>Finland
As if anyone gives a shit.

>>651687
>hating on rich dad, poor dad

the book isn't that bad you know.

>>652067
I don't know about including this one. Although the questions are a bit annoying, they tend to end up in a lot of debate. Generally the only tier that isn't argued about is the Shit tier.

Not saying that the info graphic is wrong. I'm just saying that such a subjective topic shouldn't be included in a basic sticky.

>>652092
Expenses

>>652096
The enter book can be sumed up in to a few pages, on the note most of Dave Ramsays books are for the financially ignorant masses who have no self control.

>>651496
This sounds like an exact copy of that Mr. Money Mustache blog, especially the "waiting one month to make a purchase" part. You should check it out if you haven't already.

>>652193
would it be wise to put the emergency fund in something liquid like cashable GIC (canuckfag), high interest savings account (topkek) or just stuff cash in a Jordan shoebox (inb4 basketball american)

>>652233
I had no idea. I'll check it out.

>>652044
Well, Bogleheads has a lot of great information, and for a while I thought about making their key points into an infographic/sticky image. However, I feel like if I do that some people on /biz/ will fell like it's shit.

>>651714
Not all the text. Just reduce it to the bare essentials without oversimplifying.

>You are the master of your budget and the sole person responsible for it.
What were your reasons for adding this? I guess you were trying to ensure people don't let someone unscrupulous handle their budget which is important but you have to settle on a certain level of importance or the infographic will be too long.

>>652481
OK. So what did you think of the second version? It had the text cut down on.

I added it since some people feel like slaves when living under a budget, but they forget that they are free to create it however they want.

>>652067
>>652071
>CS mid tier
>top job: sysems engineer
At least try to be consistent.

>>652067
>>652071

>Business ranked low tier
>CPA is in the top 10 best jobs...

>>652044
>And for the love of God if you're gonna have a books section don't include Graham who admitted that the methods in his books no longer work and suggested investing in index funds.
Source?

Honestly, this is the simplest infogragh I've seen on how to become wealthy over time.

>want to get rich quickly so I can do drugs with hookers instead of going to work
>come to /biz/
>sticky tells me to work hard and spend nothing
>create a "how to get rich" thread

OP here again.

I'm working on a new, improved version.

I need some books recommendations to put on there. Books that are commonly viewed by /biz/ as required reading. So far I've got:
* Security Analysis
* The Intelligent Investor
* The Richest Man in Babylon
* Bogleheads' Guide To Investing (will also link to website in the links section)

Alternatively I could just throw the entire recommended book image on there.

>>652851
This right here. OP's shit is convoluted while really not saying anything of value.

"Beware of self help books" oh really?! NO FUCKING SHIT

There's only two books and one program that are really a must have IMO.

1.The millionare next door
2. the intelligent investor
3. YNAB

Coupled with the simple milestone infograph that will solve like 90% of people's financial woes

>>653076
Well, a lot of people don't know a lot of this "No shit" stuff. How many people buy into these self-help books and programs? Most people live beyond their means, or paycheck to paycheck.

Anyhow, I've updated the infographic. It now includes books, links, an expanded section on investing, while not sacrificing the depth the second one did. This one is conversely longer.

>>653092
> mfw when actually contributing to financial literacy on a peruvian modal jazz board
mother would have been so proud

>>652631
>I am no longer an advocate of elaborate techniques of security analysis in order to find superior value opportunities. This was a rewarding activity, say, 40 years ago, when our textbook "Graham and Dodd" was first published; but the situation has changed a great deal since then. In the old days any well-trained security analyst could do a good professional job of selecting undervalued issues through detailed studies; but in the light of the enormous amount of research now being carried on, I doubt whether in most cases such extensive efforts will generate sufficiently superior selections to justify their cost. To that very limited extent I'm on the side of the "efficient market" school of thought now generally accepted by the professors.

http://www.bylo.org/bgraham76.html

Graham said that all the way back in 1976. We're in 2015. Markets are far more competitive than they've ever been. AUM at hedge funds have exploded as has quantitative investing, high frequency trading etc. If Graham were around today he'd be even more against security selection or market timing.

Graham's methods do not work. Reading The Intelligent Investor is a waste of time. Do not listen to people on /biz/ because they have no idea how markets actually operate. They just recommend pic related because it was recommended to them and they gave no other thought to it.

Index Funds.

>>653111
And just a bit from the same interview where Graham says beating the market is folly and index funds are better:

>Can the average manager of institutional funds obtain better results than the Dow Jones Industrial Average or the Standard & Poor's Index over the years?

>No. In effect, that would mean that the stock market experts as a whole could beat themselves--a logical contradiction.

>Do you think, therefore, that the average institutional client should be content with the DJIA results or the equivalent?

>Yes. Not only that, but I think they should require approximately such results over, say, a moving five-year average period as a condition for paying standard management fees to advisors and the like.

>>653119
>>653111
Why haven't I seen this on /biz/ before? There's a lot of talk about "The Intelligent Investor" but no one ever seems to mention this.

>>653123
>Why haven't I seen this on /biz/ before?
I've mentioned it before numerous times. Just nobody asked me for a source before. Maybe they didn't read my post or thought I was lying. Or thought they'd become millionaires by speculating in their brokerage accounts lel
>There's a lot of talk about "The Intelligent Investor"
Like I said, people like to be seen recommending a "classic". It gives them some sort of validation. People who actually know Graham, his partnership and his beliefs would never recommend you bother with The Intelligent Investor. It was written in 1934 for that time.

>>653092
>still no mention of emergency fund
>still no mention that the majority of your wealth should come from your job
>still no mention of retirement accounts
>still no mention of tax considerations
>recommends index funds then instructs to research individual companies

Also, suggesting that anyone should invest in the equities market without having a stable income is practically criminal.

On the whole, I suppose its better than before. But still a very poor effort.

>>653123

It's because everyone is all "muh Buffett" and they don't realize Warren recommends index funds for most investors as well. That combined with people thinking they'll read that book and pick up on some efficiency that hundreds of people who are financial analysts for a living have missed.

>>653136
>still no mention of emergency fund
This I actually forgot, I'll add it in
>still no mention that the majority of your wealth should come from your job
This I don't see the point of. For 99% of people who read this, that will be the case.
>still no mention of retirement accounts
Heavily depends on the country.
>still no mention of tax considerations
Again, heavily depends on the country.
>recommends index funds then instructs to research individual companies
This is not contradictory. Also if you read it carefully, it says to research BOTH mutual funds and companies. I.e. if you invest in index funds then research those funds, and if you invest in individual companies research those. Or any combination of the two.

>>653143
>This I don't see the point of. For 99% of people who read this, that will be the case.
Do you even read the board?

>Heavily depends on the country.
Lies. Do the research you lazy fuck.


>This is not contradictory.
You're sending confusing messages to the few simpletons who might benefit from this. Stop being lazy.

On reflection, this is really little more than highly-selective cut-and-paste bullshit. I'm going to stop bumping your thread because it's evident this is turning out badly (shocker).

/biz/ deserves better.

>>652046
They hate us for our immense wealth :^)

>>651928

>no irrational exuberance

>>653282
Lol im dying that he thinks he shouldn't mention retirement accounts.

>>653092
hmm, it is neat that you are putting effort into this and listening to /biz/ and I appreciate it but I will criticize the fuck out of this at some point, constructive criticism

>>653111
Still going to read it anyways.

>>653076
>>653092
Add this to books

Why Smart People Make Big Money Mistakes And How To Correct Them: Lessons From The New Science Of Behavioral Economics

Gary Belsky, Thomas Gilovich

>>653092
>saving at least 10%
a bit specific, the default should be to become a miser, pay attention to prices and judge every purchase carefully, buy the concentrated orange juice etcetera and save your entire surplus

>contiue saving even after you start investing
yep, also reinvest all your returns

>be frugal
this could be combined with "saving at least 10%", it is basically the same thing in principle

>budget
I think you can pack more detail into that small space.

"it is important to record household spending so you can see where you can make cuts but difficult to keep track of your dozens of minor purchases, these can be condensed into your grocery bill and the amount you withdraw to put into your wallet"

plus an example of a excel spreadsheet for household incomings and outgoings in the same vein as double entry bookkeeping, something simple and intuitive

>muh index funds
I agree, however during a recession people might want to consider switching to cash or bond ETFs. Needs a warning about potential scams and learning more about finance and the stock market before making any rash decisions (including when to switch to bond ETFs)

>be careful of these
this was well written, though if one of your relatives is an actual quant working for one of the big hedgies or something then maybe you should listen to them

>be objective
well written as well, dont know if I can add more, I would probably lecture people more on some key problems in critical thinking, confirmation bias, survivor bias, prejudices, petty foibles, lowering stress and dealing with personal crisis', being very practical, trying to avoid mental laziness if you have such problems concentrating

>research
could put the links here

http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/bwld/sec-filings
8-K, 10-K and 10-Q are the current, annual and quarterly reports

http://finviz.com/screener.ashx?v=111&f=ind_majorintegratedoilgas&ft=4&o=-marketcap

>>653092
>diversify
yep

>richest man in babylon
is this where the 10% figure came from, good books I guess, people are always asking for books

I think much of this could be used in a sticky for /biz/ to tackle all the "how do i get rich" posts

I think the answer to that is "that is what we're trying to figure out".

though the sticky would have to include a little about how to start a business rather than being purely about investing, or where to find out

>>654256
>is this where the 10% figure came from, good books I guess, people are always asking for books
Yup. Bogleheads also quote it though.

>>654255
>yep, also reinvest all your returns
Do you think this needs to be explicitly stated?

>this could be combined with "saving at least 10%", it is basically the same thing in principle
Good idea, but how should we combine it? Just remove the "be frugal" section, or remove the "spend less than you earn" section. They are quite similar.

>>Budget
>I think you can pack more detail into that small space
I'll try to figure something out. Probably going to use your quote in part or whole.

>>muh index funds
Good idea, I should add in a section on what to do during bear markets, but I'll need some advice on what to actually put there. Bond ETF's are already going in. Do we need something else?

>well written as well, dont know if I can add more, I would probably lecture people more on some key problems in critical thinking, confirmation bias, survivor bias, prejudices, petty foibles, lowering stress and dealing with personal crisis', being very practical, trying to avoid mental laziness if you have such problems concentrating
I, personally, think it's a bit outside the scope of the guide.

>could put the links here
Will do!

>>653092
Terrible. Just go to bogleheads.org/wiki/getting_started

Then copy it and paste it into your infographic. Insisting on doing your way will just lead to subpar results. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

bup

>>654537
thank you all anon's for a /g/nard this thread is gold

>>652067

>marketing not included
>biz shit tier

I couldn't have made a million with any other subject, I don't have the smarts or dedication.

What tier is what depends on what you want from life

>paper qualifications
>some footnote in academia
>maybe a patent or two (possibly stolen with no compensation, because most of your work is 'public domain' as you're a scientists not a businessman or marketer.
>partial credit in a few research papers

OR

>paper money
>hookers & weed
>24/7 travel lifestyle
>automated online businesses

Yfw you need no qualifications to hire qualified people...

Therefore the main subject I study is Wealth Creation, funnily enough, it doesn't appear on any university prospectus....

>>653111
>>653119

Warren Buffett still recommends it, as late as 2006 in a speech from one source, and there are still some solid principles there.


What would the fund managers, the index/indices, the 'experts' have said to invest in on September 10th, 2001?

One of those well-established corporations in the World Trade Center?

Or before the 2009 crash?

Somewhere safe?
Like those banks that crashed? The auto industry? Real estate?

I know where most of my money wouldn't be if I followed my own intuition - 80% of it wouldn't be anywhere near international corporations, it would be local startups...

IDK about the whole "make sure to research your stocks lel, here are advanced books on picking securities" thing. In past threads it seems like almost nobody on /biz/ actually buys individual stocks and tries to be Warren Buffett. I like mentioning index funds, maybe talk some more about diversifying (use both stock and bond index funds). But if someone doesn't know to save at least 10% and needs this sticky, they aren't ready to be picking their own stocks IMO.

Full-disclosure: Poorfag who owns SWPPX and nothing else

>>654285
>Do you think this needs to be explicitly stated?
put "reinvest your returns" in somewhere, to help build an impression of what they should be doing maybe

>how should we combine "be frugal" with "spend less than you earn"
they should be spending less in general, saving more than 10% if possible

when considering a new purchase try to think in the long term, what it will do for you, how long it will last, of course the price, if you are tempted to impulse buy an expensive item wait a month and see if you still want it and only then make the purchase.

a penny saved is a penny earned, people often spend on things they don't need or spend more than they should and don't realize it, a good way to find ways to save money is to create a budget, it can be one of the easiest ways to increase your net income, easily the equivalent of a pay rise

something like that, maybe squeeze in the idea of selling old clutter at flea markets or on ebay

>what to do during bear markets
not even the experts know what to do during bear markets, there is also the risk people might misinterpret and overreact to a slight blip in the S&P 500, I suppose you could mention this and suggest to beginner investors to put their money into very low risk stocks and funds for the long term, not fretting over the business cycle

>I, personally, think it's a bit outside the scope of the guide.
a quick example of what to look out for maybe

>>651577
Mutual funds are shit

>>655758
>Warren Buffett still recommends it, as late as 2006 in a speech from one source, and there are still some solid principles there.
Because Buffett is promoting an image of himself that isn't accurate. He wants people to think he's this Graham schooled value investor when he's in fact nothing like it at all. But gullible idiots who have never read a 13F or understand Buffett's options trades just lap it up.

>What would the fund managers, the index/indices, the 'experts' have said to invest in on September 10th, 2001?
No idea. I'm sure different fund managers and different experts would say different things. But all passive investors would have carried on investing in index funds.

>>653325
>obesity, feminism, anorexia/bulimia, niggers, chinks, spics, faggots, tipping, non-metric

>>655782
Is that a joke? How are they shit for the beginning investor, or any investor for that matter?

>>651496
Does anyone find it sad that anyone might need an 'infographic' like this on a fucking business and finance board?

This is all fucking common sense. These infographics are just a way for lazy pieces of shit to feel good about themselves for not doing anything.

>>655843
I would rather have niggers shitting up my country instead of getting Sharia law shoved up my ass.

>>656126

>muh sharia
>grabs crotch

Maybe check actual minority sizes in relevant countries and compare which is in deeper shit. Hint: it's you.

>>656159
>implying we all aren't already shitted up
>implying muh implyings

>>651496
nothing about sucking a thousand dicks? 0/10