/biz/ - Business & Finance

if you can't do this with excel you're a retard

Yea no, not doing that.

K... KEEP ME POSTED

>>6312744
Fuck off.

>>6312744
i thought 2017 had crypto with the like-kind loophole and that moving forward in 2018 we'd have to document everything.

Taxation is theft.

hahaahaha. wanna see them track my ED transactions

>>6312744
SHOO SHOO, IRS

>>6312774
Agreed.
But many idiots on /biz/ have no clue they even have to do this.

>>6312800
its real

>americucks

>>6312836
because it motherfucking is.
I'm not even rich and I think it is.
Though in burgerland the more rich you are the less you're taxed.
hmmmmm

>>6312866
That doesn't mean we should take it seriously. Don't you have somebody's wages to garnish or something?

>>6312744
what happens if gift crypto to a friend ?
what if you lose your private keys ?
what if you traded on DEX with no transaction logs ?

I aint givin them shit

They can suck my cock, bunch of filthy kikes

>>6312744
NICE TRY IRS

>>6312744
3301 like kind swaps was ONLY clarified to be for "real estate" in December of 2017. No, each trade is NOT needed for tax events for 2017. They sure as shit will be for 2018. Alas, for 2017 only fiat exits will be needed.

>>6312827
Everything I’ve read, people say you ‘shouldnt’ And ‘probably’ will be rejected. I’m waiting for some bizraelies to try it out. My question on that is if that’s the case, then how do you pay taxes on the 2017 amount if starting in 2018 there are new rules, and tax software would count is as if you already payed tax on that. Sorry if not making sense i tried.

>>6312864
you don't

>>6312915
what happens if gift crypto to a friend ?
form 709

what if you lose your private keys ?
so you can't sell? not a problem, you only have to report P&L on sales.

what if you traded on DEX with no transaction logs ?
then you need to keep your own logs of transaction prices and quantities for reporting to the IRS

This wasn’t even hard to fill out, why is everyone so worried?

>>6312878
>>6312836
The government was made to do stuff so it does so, so stop whining.
And the US doesn't harm the big guys because they run the show basically, a reality of capitalism.

LOL. I swing trade between shitcoins multiple times per day. There's no fucking way I'm going to record every transaction for every fucking coin. How would they even know anyway?

I arbitrage trade with bots. I went ahead and wrote a script to generate my 8949, and it made 73,230 pages for 2017.

IRS is about to change their mind about this.

>>6313114
US Exchanges report to IRS

sorry I spent on my crypto on goods and services not hodling anything

Sales price in what? Sats? Buterins?

>>6312878
>Though in burgerland the more rich you are the less you're taxed.
>hmmmmm
WRONG

>>6313114

They won't know. But on the tiny chance you get audited just make sure the capital gains you reported are good estimates of your actual gains.

>its another 3 letter agency makes a tax fud thread

fuck off, you cant prove any transactions with monero

Wouldn't the total profit loss/gain from all crypto be the same tho? Why do the extra crap for the same outcome?

>>6313146
the only US exchange you should be using is coinbase

>>6313146
Why would that matter since I don't use exchanges that require ID verification?

>>6312878
>Though in burgerland the more rich you are the less you're taxed.
Holy shit I can't even imagine being this fucking retarded. I hope everything crashes so dumb money like this can get BTFO.

>>6313116
I might not be far behind that. This might break the IRS.

One question.

How are they going to verify the data if they try and audit me?

I'd like to see them try. Every exchange not based in the US, will kindly tell them to go fuck themselves.

>>6313114
>How would they even know anyway?
they may try to subpoena the exchanges

>>6313238

Yes. And It's just FUD.

>>6313238
Artificial barrier to entry to businesses, oldest trick of the jews after opening borders and promoting misgeneation and antinatalism.

>>6313252
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe you'll get away with it. Maybe you won't. If you don't you'll get locked up for a long fucking time.

>>6313146
Are there even US exchanges besides coinbase?

>>6313108

I ain't gotta do shit

>>6313314

>>6313324
https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/united-states/
25 US Exchanges listed here

>>6313324
Bittrex

>>6313108
Please submit this

>>6313076
Fuck off faggot

>>6313108
you get audited last my fren

I have had 260 trades since January 1st...they can eat my ass.

>>6312744
LOL IRS is fucked. Enjoy that.

>>6313215
Do you honestly think they give a fuck?

With the IRS you're guilty until proven innocent. If you get audited and can't prove to them exactly how you got the money, they will seize or freeze all your assets or send you to prison and there's not a god damn thing you can do about it.

This is the IRS.

You fucking idiots don't seem to understand who you're dealing with. The IRS does not fuck around. Period.

>>6313116
no they are just going to make us use brokers and only let people with over a quarter mil day trade like stocks

>>6313114
Even if they don't have your records from an exchange, you're going to have to find an excuse for the balance on your bank account if you actually cash out

>>6312744
this literally takes five minutes using bitcoin.tax

and they have several different filing methods, you can choose like kind, or lifo, fifo, or avg... seriously so ez

>>6313292
Yeah, the IRS is going to try and subpoena some exchange based in Hong Kong because of somebody's, crypto earnings.

Good one.

Do you have to do this shit on normal stocks?

Like bought 1k worth of intel stock at $20 per stock and shit?

Dunno how normal stocks work i'm just here to shill Bitshares

>>6313434
>>6313434
they literally have their own army

>>6312744
I'll just write off my losses and collect a tax credit filthy tax kike

I think its funny that even if this shit is reported to the IRS they still make you fill out a form to try to catch you fucking up or lying. Absolute dog shit organization that needs to be reformed or completely fucking abolished. Seriously, if Coinbase and Kraken are already sending my shit to them why the fuck does it matter that I have to fill this stupid shit out? YOU ALREADY HAVE THE INFO SO FUCK YOU RETARDS

Pro-tip: they only go after top earners. There were like 2000 people in the entire US who were criminally charged with tax evasion. Of all us poorfags, only 0.4% will get audited, and 99% of those will just have to pay a fine.

>>6312744
>Literally thousands of trades
>Import my trades
>Send the IRS thousands of forms they have to go through
Good luck with that Tax man.

In 2003 I bought and sold about $25,000 of stocks with a small overall loss. I didn't file 8949 or Schedule D with my tax return. Scott trade reported the sales to the IRS. Then the IRS sent me a letter saying I owed taxes on $25,000 of gains, because they were not going to factor in how much I paid for the stocks. So I had to file an amended return for that year with 8949 and Sch D calculated properly.

>there is a team at the IRS paid specifically to post on 4chan all day

FUCKING KEK, anons you are only taxed on Crypto to Fiat trades. Crypto to crypto is like trading pokemon cards for pokemon cards. Don't fall for the "muh taxed on crypto to crypto meme", crypto are NOT securities.

>>6313434
no, they send you a bill dumbass. prison only happens if they prove you did it on purpose.

>>6313238

Seriously, I too do not understand the concept behind each trade. I guess I am missing some piece. I hold alts and once I sell something, I buy something else. I am not keeping any BTC and ETH for long time to make significant gains on it, and because of this I guess in my case the taxable amount would be : today's total value - invested total amount

>>6313492
How much is the fine? This is important

>>6313434
Stop spouting memes, the IRS are pussies, always have been always will be.

>>6313501
Agree w this guy. Not sure why that meme started government doesn’t even give a F about crypto to crypto except maybe btc to eth.

I only have 800 dollars. I don't really have to do this right...

The amount of time for an audit on one persons crypto much less unknown thousands would bring the already understaffed IRS to ceasing halt. This is going to get interesting.

>>6313434
of course these cucks have no idea how the IRS works.. i can see the post now

> be me
> didn't file crypto taxes
> now owe more in back taxes than i ever made on crypto
> REEEEE
> irs has seized all my bank accounts
> has frozen eberything
> now i hab no money

Like you think the government know upfiring. No they don’t know shit about this space

Salt

>>6313501
Sounds good to me...

>>6313580
I don't know. I'm not doing it. Fuck them. Throw me in prison I don't give a shit. They can go find all my transactions themselves. I'm reporting my profit and initial investment and nothing more. Suck my dick tax jews

>>6313539

Based on how much you owe. If you just report your gains/losses when you cash out you'll be fine 99.9% of the time.

>we need crypto to escape banks and IRS
>IRS takes crypto too even though its supposed to be untraceable
>crypto exchanges still at the whim of government / IRS
hilarious

>>6312744
Nah, I'll just buy gold/silver and trade for cash.

>>6313501
you are correct, it is exactly like trading pokemon cards.

You ARE taxed on profits you make trading pokemon cards.

the difference is, they CAN tell you bought/sold/deposited/withdrew from exchanges/wallets, and they CAN'T tell that you traded pokemon cards with billy from school. Everything you do online is recorded, in several places.

So good luck

>>6313637
> If you just report your gains/losses when you cash out you'll be fine 99.9% of the time.

So if I cash out 50 grand off an initial investment of 5 thousand dollars they're going to be just fine with me not reporting any Kraken trades I made? Yeah right lmao. They see that money go off coinbase and get exchanged for another shitcoin on kraken they're going to try to catch me slipping.

>>6312744

I'm going to write a program to this for me, and generate a 200 lb stack of paper that I WILL mail to the IRS in a wooden crate.

Good luck faggots. Lets hope they learn their lesson by next year, because right now they don't even have the manpower to process regular paper filings.

all these rich exchanges need to spend their money lobbying congress for better tax laws.

that's how the uber wealthy get around paying taxes.

fucking greedy exchanges need to be better than this

>>6313501
You're missing the point also.

If you cash out, you must provide proof of how you acquired the coins to cash out with. Aka the trade history.

>>6313755

You can literally say it was one trade and there isn't jackshit they can do to prove you're lying.

>>6313751
yeah that'll totally happen in 2017

>>6313751
>better tax laws

Doesn't exist. Tax laws only have gotten more complicated. There has been very few cases in history where the excessively complex tax code that keeps getting more retarded and convoluted actually went in the other direction

>>6313755

Yeah, and if you get audited, just print it out and give it to them.

>>6313815
They will still ask for the trade history.

They'll see which wallet it went to and how many coins it was holding, then they'll see what transactions that wallet made and your lie won't hold up. You really think they're that dumb huh

>>6313815
from where did you get the thing you traded away?

are you really this stupid? Or just greedy . . .

>>6313444
say you made one trade and gained all your money off it

>>6313880
It went to an exchanges wallet.

Now what fuckface?

>>6313444
>using a bank account to cash out

You know you can buy metal with crypto, right?

>>6312744
>2017
I'm sorry I believe you mean 2018.

Do i actually have to do this till i send it to my bank account? I found a website that lets me upload all my transactions

>>6313238
But wouldn't the numbers be the exact same tax wise? Or do I have to pay taxes on crypto that isn't even cashed out? I'm so confused.

>>6313878
>and pay the penalties
>and pay interest
>and refile this years taxes anyway
they're not gonna be like "yo anon could you email me that trade history? thx"

Your options are:
1. do it right
2. do it wrong, then pay a fine to get another chance to do it right
3. repeat step 2
4. jail

people got away with it for the last few years because NOBODY MADE ANY MONEY OFF CRYPTO. They watched that shit go up 100x and now they want their fucking protection money.

You're fucking with the biggest mafia on the planet. I hope you're ready.

>>6312744
Daily reminder that if you didn't make more than $20k in crypto the IRS don't give a fuck about your shitcoin "gains". Just don't fuck up the rest of your tax return so you don't get a human review.

>>6313940
They can track that you fucking idiot. Exchange wallets are uniquely generated to users

Why is this so hard?

i'm not reporting crypto to crypto in 2017, i will in 2018.

look you can't fucking make up laws and apply them retroactively. that's not how laws work

>>6314083
That's not a wallet you absolute retard.

>>6313238
>>6313515
>>6313314
>>6313305
No. This way they can track your coins FIFO and milk you for a bit more short term capital gains than the old way.

>>6314083
I don't think that's true. I can't be certain, but I suspect you get pooled in some of them, because it's possible to trade fractions of NEO

>>6313116
print it all out on paper and send it to them in boxes. Document the event for massive keks

>>6314053
>implying the IRS isn't anything but a bunch of pencil-pushers being controlled by their shadow government

If you:
sold USD for crypto A
sold crypto A for crypto B
sold crypto B for USD
you're fucked.

Also, good luck with forks.

so when I do my taxes on bitcoin.tax should I include all exchanges I used or just gdax/coinbase since that's what I used to cash in/cash oh to my bank account? I made something like 80k usd.

>>6312744
So glad i dont live in the land of the "free"

>>6314036
you have to prove that ISIS didn't give you the coins in payment for your video editing skills
you have to prove that you didn't sell 10 kilos of cocaine
you have to prove that you didn't steal them


You live in a totalitarian society. WAKE THE FUCK UP. YOU ARE NOT FREE TO DO AS YOU CHOOSE.

If you don't like that, do something REAL about it. Going to jail for tax evasion won't fucking help. And it will happen when they scrape your 4chan history (that they already have archived) and pull up your IP posting "FUCK TAXES N SHIAT"

>>6313108
Lol

>>6313986
No. 2017 tax forms are due April 2018.
Get started.

all my 5-6 trades in 2017 maybe.. MAYBE got me 20 bucks in gains, and that's still not definitive, one of my trades may have been a loss.

that and it was all in 2017 and i haven't made a single trade this year nor have I ever cashed out to fiat. i'm not doing shit this year

how the fuck you supposed to get more gains if the government is constantly sipping on them. i have literally no problem with them wanting a slice once i cash out. but they basically are saying if you day trade you're fucked.

Are they worried about a couple thousand dollars worth of gains? Or will they come after the small frys too?

>>6313590
lol yes PLEASE make long, exhaustive lists, anons. Dump and crash them with so much paperwork that they'll suffocate.

In all actuality they're going to clarify this later this year and i'll be a moot point anyway.

>>6314142
Um, I know that. That makes it WORSE.

>>6313316
Bullshit, the accountants will be on suicide watch when the get to track 8000 + transaction. haha

>>6314013
>Do i actually have to do this till i send it to my bank account?
You have to do it when there are any sales.
Doesn't matter if you have moved the USD from exchange to bank.

>>6313116
This has suddenly become fun, good luck irs

Is there a minimum here? Like, I've literally got $175 in the crypto game cuz thats all i care to gamble away. Do i have to record every $25 transaction ive made this month?

>>6313110
>Government cannot run a profitable business so it literally creates a welfare system for itself to sustain it's inefficient incompetency that erodes the total worth of it's lower classes
Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest

>>6312744
bitcoin.tax will use data that you can easily export from an exchange to autogenerate one of these. Pay your taxes this year. Wait until the heat dies down before skipping out on your taxes

>>6312836
Taxation is rent.

>>6314204
And the new law applies to the new year.

>>6312744
I know. I've been doing it like that since 2013.

REMEMBER THE 20,000 DOLLARS RULE: IF YOU DIDN'T MAKE MORE THAN THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES

DON'T BELIEVE WHAT OP SAYS, HE'S A JEW

>>6314214
I wouldn't report anything if your total gains were less than 10k.

>>6313108
Fucking lol

Just write AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH on every line

>>6312744
Why bother reporting every single trade if the end result is exactly the same anyway

>>6314013
No, you're supposed to provide a list of every transaction you've ever made. Guess you can risk it and claim you only made one transaction, from your bank account to a wallet and then back from the exchanges to a fresh wallet with no other transactions, and hope they buy it or don't care enough to look into it.

>>6314053
I like this guy

the whole POINT of crypto is that you keep your money out of the hands of GREEDY KIKES

so...LOL um NO

>>6312744
Fuck off IRS

>>6314240
I made like 50 transactions today alone fuck them

>>6312744
So how would this system work for people who keep their assets in crypto? The government won't accept coins. So they are forcing us to cash out?

It just doesn't make sense to me unless you start taking out fiat

Anyone with a brain is never going to fill these out. They know they'll get fucked over and be left with 75% of their profits.
On top of that, IRS agents aren't going to sit around all day looking at transaction codes to make sure everything is verified.
Never cash out, plain and simple.

Guys just put the big stuff.
Don't put eveytime you exchanged to tether or BNB. Put that you made $5000, not $50.

>>6314273
Partially, yes.
But that's what a succesful government does and the government can't also not run a business because it has a lot of responsibilities the people have decided to make it engage in that do not generate profit.

>>6313705
>the difference is, they CAN tell you bought/sold/deposited/withdrew from exchanges/wallets, and they CAN'T tell that you traded pokemon cards with billy from school. Everything you do online is recorded, in several places.
>So good luck

The difference is that its recorded in 8 different places and its hundreds if not thousands of individual transactions.

>paying taxes in 2017

>>6314213
Same here anon. I was able to calculate for free on Bitcoin.tax. It ended up being like a $2 loss. My tax guy is ex IRS so I'll give it to him to keep him quiet.

However some guys are making thousands of trades a year. Last time I checked the IRS wouldn't have the manpower to keep up with all of this but we will see.

>>6314392
and don't use GDAX

>>6314134
Might differ from exchange/currency to currency but for me I definitely have a unique wallet address that only shows the transactions that I've made

>>6314392
>75% of their income
>25% tax rate
yeah, dude, that's how taxes work.

>>6314290
Yes but will it export the value of the crypto traded on that particular day?

>>6314083
yeah because binance and kucoin and bitshares are going to hand over user information to the IRS. IRS literally has no power

>>6314421
Kek, the idiots can't even verify whether an address on an exchange is even yours.

>>6313434
IRS agent here....you think we have a clue how to keep track of all this shit??

>>6314237
Have you actually ever talked to an IRS accountant? A federal agent? My dad's friend is a veteran operative with the ATF. Let me get it through your head. The government goes after people who commit federal crimes, not Joe Blow who made $5,000 off a Bitcoin he bought after reading about it on a Estonian sheep-farming forum. If you follow protocol and act on your best conscience, you will not be on their radar, period. Most people who cook up these overly paranoid beliefs fail to realize that government bureaucracy is filled with real people like you and me.

They're not getting my sheckles

>>6313691
That's why you dive in, take your mounds of crypto, and sell it for a strategically better life. Pay your taxes which is only a small portion.

>>6314475
this, only Gdax forwards info

>>6314325
Draw a pink wojak. They'll understand completely. They might even give you a larger return with a letter that says 'JUST because'.

fiat exchange -> altcoin exchange -> privacy coin -> fiat exchange 2

cash out at fiat exchange 2

>I "lost" my money in exchange 1
>cash out coins:
1) I found a usb
2) Someone gifted me coins
3) won a coin lottery

>>6314257
Yes.
If you want to comply with tax law.

>>6314053
>people got away with it for the last few years because NOBODY MADE ANY MONEY OFF CRYPTO.

Yeah you know, just billionaires and shit randomly popping up. Nobody made money goys.

How do forks work with taxes?

Who was computer software?

Bitcoin.tax.

This is not hard.

>>6312878
>Though in burgerland the more rich you are the less you're taxed.
Are you fucking braindead? I pay 40k a year in TAXES.

>>6314471
Don't know actually, that's a good question

So if started with with $10k and made $100k. Why can't I just do:

($100k - $10k) * capital gains tax-rate

What am I missing?

>>6314497
i reckon if you're making six figures on crypto the IRS will come after you. A large sum of money coming out of nowhere why wouldn't they assume it had crime ties? Also when you cash out with your bank with a random large deposit they might send in an SAR

>>6314555
Yep, you will need that. Otherwise you have to guess it.

what about for canucks?

>>6314338
Because the IRS doesn't trust you to report your overall gain accurately.

>>6314421
Do you think they can't hire software developers to automate that shit? With the amount of money on the line, there's no other possibility. Not only that, they don't have to do it themselves. They just strong-arm exchanges to do it for them. You guys are gonna have to learn the hard way that the US Department of the Treasury is one bad fucking bitch.

IFF you planned your entry into crypto and every action and exit correctly, you have nothing to worry about. If you didn't, its WAY to fucking late now.

>>6314427
>My tax guy is ex IRS so I'll give it to him to keep him quiet.

Its funny how the people claiming its so easy all have connections to the IRS in some way.

>>6313434
The IRS is incompetent as shit like almost every government agency, there's noway they're going to spend the time and resources going after crypto investors.. There are millions of illegal immigrants who pay nothing and taxes and the IRS does jack shit about it, you're just a shill.

>>6314389
The thing that makes USD valuable is that the government forces you to pay taxes in USD. This is the only reason fiat has value.

>>6314418
>Many first world governments are selling our natural resources, land, state run business, telecom services, technology infrastructure and even city real estate out from under us, especially to developing asian countries
Even in their short-sighted quick-profit scams, they somehow don't make enough money to float their failing corrupt system.

I can't wait for the corporations to take over and fuck the government in the arse, and probably us too in the process.

>>6314086

Fucking kek. Just report all gains and losses in terms of the coins you bought.

Let them figure out the rest. Theyll take one look at it and their heads will explode

>>6314257
under $1050 in gains you don't have to report

but if you sell that shit for $10,000 in 2 years you're gonna need the records.

>>6314563
It doesn't account for where the bitcoins came from. But of course even if you did illegal shit for coins you can make up random transactions and say you were day trading.

>>6314590
Damn, guess I better start keeping track

>>6312744
Can I just take 0$ cost basis, I don't have all my records

>>6314563
biz is retarded
all trading converts to total gain/loss

biz is freaking out thinking that you will somehow owe more than your total change

>Initial
$1000
>trading
1000 trades ~ $1000 -> $100,000
>change
$100,000 - $10,000 = $90,000

you get taxed on the $90,000 profit

prove me wrong

>>6314513
>3) won a coin lottery

Coin lottery needs to be a core functionality of all privacy coin wallets anyway.

>>6314707
SHARPEN YOUR PENCILS, GOYUM.

>>6313076
ED has api’s that track transactions you mongoloid

So... are they going to apply VAT to every coin transaction you make?

Because that would simply fuck over day traders royally.

>>6314497
You could just file the Sch D (with accurate tax liability) without supporting 8949 and hope for the best, but you might get audited.

>>6314659
but its just odd to force us to cash out to fiat to pay our taxes. What if someone owes 40k stored most of it on BTC during a dip? they're fucked aren't they. It's like putting taxes on pennystock trading.

>>6313160
It's true. You can afford fancy accountants to exploit tax loopholes.

>>6313473
That shit’s capped yo. Otherwise it would be an insane moral hazard.

>>6312744

lol fuck the irs. they need to entice me to cash out first, fuckin faggots. i don't have to pay SHIT unless i cash out. lmfao don't fall for this. make as many trades as you can and stack as much bitcoin as you can lads.

>>6314630
>Do you think they can't hire software developers to automate that shit? With the amount of money on the line, there's no other possibility. Not only that, they don't have to do it themselves.

You cant automate it if you don't know the rules for every possible scenario. The problem with many of the shills here is they assume that there isn't a 1000+ random possible situations dependent on each individual coin.

>>6314682

You dropped your hat, sir

>>6314517
yeah billionaires were totally created while bitcoin went from $1100 to $220

THIS YEAR is when the billionaires were created, which is why THIS YEAR(2017) is when they are gonna crack down.

in 2013 there wasn't that much money (to the IRS) in the whole crypto market, and they legitimately had no idea how to deal with it. if you don't think they spent the last 4 years getting ready . . . you haven't been paying attention.

>>6314702


that is a... pretty damn good point

well its not the end of the world thatd prob take me like 5-10 minutes to fill out its worth it

>>6314871
Tax season is the same time every year. Ignorance is no excuse.

That's whole fucking reason for this dip . . . cashing out to pay fucking taxes!!!!

Like everything in markets if you didn't see it coming, you're getting fucked. That's why "normies" don't fuck with volatile investments. Maybe you shouldn't either.

>>6314563
If you only did one buy and one sell trade, it would be that simple.
Try filling out the 8949 without breaking it down trade-by-trade. You can't.

you fags should be recording your trades and balances in personal finance software anyway

>>6312744
if its all under 10k, u dont have to report shit. correct?

>>6314746
i wish
the exchanges needs a lottery button which takes all your dust/dividends{KC/COSS } and pools it into tiered rewards with owners of the exchange coin (KCS/BNB/COSS)

>>6313116
please please PLEASE deliver this to the irs throught the mail in boxes and document it. It will make up for all of the bizraelies who are gonna get audited this year

can delta even export this shit

>>6312744
This makes no sense though, are you supposed to calculate the fiat value of every asset at the time of every trade? And also does this mean that the government accepts crypto as currency?

>>6314926
you assume that they can't just FORCE YOU DO TO IT.

Get it? They don't have to put it all together, they just have to make you put it together. The law says you have to provide a complete history of all your economic activity. Don't like it? Too bad.

They only have to find holes in your story. That's fucking EZ.

>>6312744
I don’t own any crypto, I’m just paying tax for money on fiat that I own.

Crypto to fiat on exchange - fine I will pay tax on when it leaves the exchange.

Otherwise I have a get out of jail free card, fuckers -

You can’t own a bitcoin, you can just know a number to access value on the network.

get higher chance of winning

>>6315120
>are you supposed to calculate the fiat value of every asset at the time of every trade?
yes
>does this mean that the government accepts crypto as currency?
no. crypto is classified as property.

>>6314871
>but its just odd to force us to cash out to fiat to pay our taxes. What if someone owes 40k stored most of it on BTC during a dip? they're fucked aren't they. It's like putting taxes on pennystock trading.

What if your coins are locked away in steem power? It takes 13 weeks to get those out and if you are a broke ass and steem went up a huge amount you would be fucked beyond belief.

Oh steem went to 50 USD each in December 2018? Oh well sorry man, you better be ready to pony up that 30k you suddenly owe.

>>6314725
yeah thats fine. tax me on $90k.

why do these faggots need to know every fucking trade tho. it doesnt matter. fuck this ill just kms.

>>6314871
Page two of form 8949 (not shown above) is for long term trades held more than one year.
After going through this hell with stocks, many people learn to just buy and hold, because taxes are due only when you sell.

>>6312827
nope. wishful thinking. like-kind has never applied

>>6314929
>yeah billionaires were totally created while bitcoin went from $1100 to $220

Oh cool an IRS agent who doesnt understand percentage gains. top kek

You do realize that BTC was once worth less than a penny each right?

>>6315224
you made a grown up functioning adult amount of money.
now it's time to act like a grown up functioning adult.

>>6314823
We don't have VAT for personal taxes in the US.

>>6315079

Lottery needs to be a base functionality of crypto in general. It makes it impossible to disbelieve any story.

>>6314325
ETH being over $1k defeats the whole purpose of the token. If you knew anything about the project, you'd know this.

Use your brain people. Are you seriously going to fucking buy this over $1k?

Reminder: no taxes if you have <38k profits (poorfag reporting in)

Can you just find a coin that has price points throughout it's history that coincidence with the exact percentage increase you made and just say that you bought and held that coin?

>>6315190

The taxable event only occurs when you sell

Although fuck it I have no idea.

Unlike some NEETs here I have a real job and a real future so Im just going to pay my taxes, because i know when I cash out > $100k my ass is getting audited

Best to prepare for that now by doing this right

>>6314725

they cant because biz is full of neet retards who didnt graduate high school, let alone get a single good grade in math

>>6315135
>you assume that they can't just FORCE YOU DO TO IT.

Not sure about this. I will be paying my taxes. If they want to go in and kill me when I am paying taxes its out of my control.

You cant do the coin to coin transactions. There is no proper set list of rules and specific detail is a giant gray area. There will need to be mountains of litigation and to really make any of this make sense.

>>6315078
Banks don't have to report cash transactions under $10,000 to the IRS.

But you still owe taxes on any trades under $10,000. It is two completely different things.

Is everyone else on here actually doing this bullshit? Will I get fucked if I don't report my meager 4 figure gains of 2017?

>>6314891
That's the thing.

What if I have never cashed out? I just recently started making money. How the fuck do we pay taxes on this shit if we never cashed out. Are we forced to sell a percentage of our portfolio? Or do you only have to pay tax if you have cashed out to usd

>>6315381

Wouldn't any gains be looped in with any money you earn from a job though? So if you make at minimum $38k salary, once you go a penny over it's required reportable.

>>6315473
You are forced to cash out. You pay taxes everytime you exchange one coin for another

WHAT IF YOU STARTED TRADING CRYPTOS AT 17? I HAVE NO MONEY TO PAY TAXES

>>6315120
>This makes no sense though, are you supposed to calculate the fiat value of every asset at the time of every trade?
at the time of every SALE.
then you need to find the matching BUY which happened earlier and calculate profit or loss.

a BUY alone does not require any tax reporting

>>6315499

the purpose of reporting the trades is so they know the source of your money

if you get taxed 20% on each individual trade where you realized a gain its the same as taxing 20% on your total gains

>>6315293
>what is volume?
>muh anyone that understands taxes is an IRS agent
>You do realize that BTC was once worth less than a penny each right?
And if you don't trade it for anything else, it's not taxed. like .0001% of those .008 cent bitcoins traded hands for anything that the IRS could detect.

I've put in my charity hours for the day. Hopefully some of you pulled your immature heads out of your asses and saw the cage you are in. The rest of you are quite free to fuck yourselves any way you please.

t. not an IRS agent, but seriously considering applying after chatting it up with you fine folks.

>>6315515
Calm down

You won't get audited unless you're cashing out 5 figure sums

>>6315499

so what if I don't cash out at all

>>6315542
I'VE FUCKING CASHED OUT $300,000

>>6315549
You don't owe anything

You only have to report everything when you DO cash out

>>6315573
Sincerely hope you're joking

>>6315533
I know
>>6315549
Well when you do cash out how are you going to answer for where you got it from?

>Cash out
>Immediately move to one of those island nations that doesn't extradite and grants citizenship if you open a big enough checking account
>Enjoy your lambo and beachside property
>IRS Can't do shit and they're too busy anyways with all the 70,000+ page tax reports they have to go over
Checkmate, atheists

>>6315143
I guess you can make up your own rules.
Irwin Schiff did the same thing and spent his life in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff

>>6315462
I doubt it. I haven't bothered to analyze the possiblity though, since I will definitely be getting their attention this year.

This ain’t a fucking joke, people

>>6315573
Hope you got another 300,000 to cover that. ;)

>>6315573
your bank has sent a letter to the IRS already. It's over

>>6315610
Yeah but then you live on a crappy island nation with terrible infrastructure and high crime rates.

>>6315608
no way in hell am I reporting every single one of my trades. that's fucking retarded

>>6315610
this

I'll just get together with some other anons who made gains on crypto, buy a private island, and declare it a sovereign nation state with no taxes on crypto

>>6315573

Who the fuck let u cash out that much

>>6315672
>Implying these nations won't become wealth powerhouses with all the foreign crypto millionaires moving there.

>>6315630
So how does the taxing work if you move your crypto offshore? Seems like it would be pretty easy to move it offshore and cash out. It would be legal and you wouldn't have to pay taxes then.

>>6315709
You can cash out $50k per week on Coinbase, if he's not larping, it's actually possible

>being american

>>6315709
nigga, that's a larp, no exchange is going to allow that.

>>6315573
Hope you got some stahed away. They just want their slice of the pie. That's like the first rule of taxes. Remember to put away their portion if you are self-employed, win the lottery, deal with crypto, etc

>>6315600
>so what if I don't cash out at all
>You don't owe anything
lol no
you owe capital gains tax on the USD market value of every single sell

>>6315763
Only when you cash out to fiat

>>6315793
>lol no
>you owe capital gains tax on the USD market value of every single sell

>>6314599
Just hand over all your cuckbucks to JUSTin, you’ve got lots of Somalis to feed and houses

>>6315641

even i wanted to pay my taxes, the government sure as hell ain't making it easy for me to do so

Unironically making a shit ton of money and have cashed out 15k over three 5k transactions. Do I stop now or am I already fugged?

>>6315704
how'd that work out for taiwan?
>>6315737
>>6315747
I can cash out $50,000 per DAY
And I'm only on the second tier of GDAX. the limits go up to 1 MM/day

>>6313116
JUST

>>6312780
>>6312783
Hey guys, read ---> >>6312783

Retards.

>>6315600
>You only have to report everything when you DO cash out
FALSE. you report and pay taxes on every SALE.

>>6315763
>>6315823
Where is the proofs

>>6315823
They will only find out if you cash out though

My plan:
>Hodl on the good ones and keep 'em forever
>day trade on shitcoins
>buy more BTC and cash out at coin ATM enough >$1000 amounts to help pay for my parent's mortgage over time
>hopefully keep that consistent enough to use my wagecuck money to get my own place again
Rate my plan, /biz.

>>6312915
Simple, use your ether address. What a cuck.

>>6315855

micronations for tax evasion exist my dude

we can do it if we have enough anons and money

>>6315823
Doesn't make sense

According to which exchange do you calculate the amount owed?

You need an account to get bnb

binanc3 dot cum/ ? ref equals 11656101

>>6315870
In the tax code.
crytpocurrencies are (not like kind) property. any time you exchange property and the cost basis is less than the fair market value of the thing, you owe capital gains tax.
>>6315873
ok, enjoy your coins you can never cash out

>>6315389
One of the main things about crypto we will be seeing a lot more is the integration in to greater more complex systems. Steemit is an example where every user is getting at least dozens of taxable events every day even if they barely use the service. Video games are definitely going in the direction of crypto as well. Crypto kitties is like blood in the water for the game industry. Crypto call of duty is a year away. Micro transactions for literally fucking everything, EA will fuck that shit raw and never pull out.

> Unlike some NEETs here I have a real job and a real future so Im just going to pay my taxes

You work for the IRS so your days are numbered if you dumbasses open this pandora's box. You will be throwing kids in jail for tomigachi pets and fucking minecraft points before the next generation takes a torch to the fucking IRS buildings.

You want to see a future where democrats get even less fucking popular you better be ready to be the music industry during Napster and the fucking IRS will be Lars himself. The IRS agents will probably be a bunch of bullet sponges and your job will probably be automated anyway when the entire system is reworked because crypto made it easier to collect taxes in some other more efficient way that doesnt involve manually tracking every possible event.

Your future is bleak as fuck if you work for the IRS. The robots are coming for your damn job, this is what it looks like.

>>6314097
It has always worked this way though

>>6315901
that's your problem to figure out, not the IRS

>>6313444
Trips don’t lie. But you definitely don’t cash out into your bank account. And if you do, do it a few hundred dollars a month. You gotta leave most of it invested in crypto to avoid detection. Just put in tether if you want to lock in your gainz.

>>6315722
Millionaires have been doing this long before crypto was a thing, and the islands remain just as shitty and economically depressed.

>>6315927
>You will be throwing kids in jail for tomigachi pets and fucking minecraft points before the next generation takes a torch to the fucking IRS buildings.

Dude . . . keep that shit on the downlo. Don't want AI snoopers figuring out our plan.

Do you want to do this or not?

>>6314929
Ever heard of margin trading you total fucking retard? money is generated on each swing

>>6315943
Ok then just use dumbass exchange that reports everything at a loss

I might make my own

>>6315979
but the goal is to cash out big to live comfortably

>>6315723
good one.

>>6315979
that's fine, it's not like structuring is a felony or anything, nor do banks use AML/KYC software to detect that kind of behaviour automatically.


in fact, tellers use abacuses to calculate interest rates.

>>6316046
and anyone good enough to margin trade and and profit is either smart enough to know how to tax evade properly or smart enough to fucking pay their shit.

Neither apply to you so I'm not sure what your point is.

what if u use the shift visa card and just spend btc on buying stuff.

>>6314702
so what if you do this but you only report the one transaction that you held for a while and made a lot from?

>>6315923
Please show me the specific section(s) of the tax code that establishes this.

>>6316150
lol didn't visa recently banned crypto on their cards

>>6315793
Sorry. No.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/01/11/its-going-to-be-a-nightmare-some-bitcoin-investors-are-in-for-a-rocky-tax-season/?utm_term=.deaf54c8ed08

>>6316150
that would be okay i think because there's no way to really catch you. But your credit will still be wagecuck levels and you wont be able to buy a house even if you own 300k in crypto

I day trade and I trade coins for coins. Should I fill out a 100 page form listing BTC/XLM -> XLM/ETH -> EHT/BNB etc? How the fuck will they figure out how much USD did I move?

>>6316181
you've got it backwards m8
>>6316163
if you fuck with your actual trading history then whatever gaps you create have a cost basis of $0. You probably won't come out ahead, and could end up owing more than you ever possessed if they find your trades and treat each one individually.

>>6316196
>For example, suppose you tried to buy a cup of coffee with bitcoin. That would technically count as a sale of your bitcoin. You might owe capital gains tax if the bitcoin you paid at the cash register had increased in value from the time you first acquired it

Absolute madness

>>6316264
if they can't figure out where did your smackaroonies come from, they'll just lock you up for money laundering, isn't it awesome?

>>6315979
Idiot, you just have to move to Belarus or some other place that doesn't tax crypto for a few months and report to your embassy that you're moved out.
Cash everything out through HSBC or an offshore bank of your choice, fill out the local tax form where is says 0% taxes and come back to US.

>>6316196

If you get audited they won't actually go through all your shitcoin trades you fucking mong. They'll just make a best guess tax settlement. The only people who go to jail are ones who willfully defraud the IRS and try to hide 6 digit gains.

>>6316181
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1031

>>6316403
How fucked are these, who started using trading AI for crypto?

Wait what if I bought items with btc and ethereum that I bought on coinbase and sent to the seller last January ? Will they think I sent it to myself and all that btc and eth is mine ? That would be like 50 grand that I don’t have... how do I prove I didn’t send it to myself and sent to someone for an item

>>6316038
>Do you want to do this or not?

We don't have to do anything, its just going to happen.

Listen IRS shills posting here. You have the right idea but you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. If we have a way to track and calculate all trades automatically, that means mass layoffs. You guys do realize this right?

Your jobs are contingent on this staying nice and simple. No automation, no going after people for coin to coin trades. You get to retire, you wont be replaced.

Just let it stay nice and simple. "I see you cashed out a large sum, where did it come from?" - "A crypto investment, dont worry its being reported on taxes and I will pay it."

Done

If you go after little johnny for his ethermon pets then you better get ready to be fucked when big johnny shows up with a chip on his shoulder.

Way more people get tax returns than have to pay. The next few months are going to be awash in normie money, get your Ripple now.

what is the point of these threads. fuck off

how about i just send the trade history of my dozen bots to the irs and they can figure it out

>>6312744
I've made money, but I always sold for a loss, do I get a big tax return now?

>>6316358
>jail
they wont put you in jail
youll just be a US debt slave, imagine that now I just need to profit from this 21st century slave trade

>>6316505
>see you cashed out a large sum, where did it come from?" - "A crypto investment, dont worry its being reported on taxes and I will pay it
Sure anon, that sounds like a perfectly trustworthy excuse.
IRS don't go with the honor system.

>>6316609
no, you can't deduct crypto (property) losses from your regular income

>>6312744
nice just bought 100k

>>6316264
You should probably look into buying specialized tax software for crypto trading.

>>6316636
crypto is my only income.

Fuck I thought it was only crypto to fiat and have been using bittrex. I have like 10k trades from the past year. Will bittrex report to the IRS? I had to submit id to withdraw my shit from there after they started locking accounts fuck sakes.

If I switch to binance will they have any way of knowing from here on it? Help plz

>>6316505
anon we already can computer taxes with a computer, the irs just doesnt want to read up on US law

>>6316628
>IRS don't go with the honor system.
They cant tax you at the moment of the transaction. They have to wait a year. And if it comes to it and the guy didn't pay after cashing out, your golden. Nobody gives a shit when you jam a strap on in his asshole.

>tfw you realize the border wall will be to keep the cryptotraders from easily emigrating...

>>6315300
lick my nuts faggot. i actually have more. how does it feel to know that a "non-functioning adult" has more money then your dumbass? hurts doesnt it?

>>6316636
You can up to some amount.
I think it is like $4000.
Then you carry over the loss to next year and net it against any stock/crypto gains in the next year.

>>6316680
you only pay after your final results regardless if you made 1 or 5000 trades last year

and if it's too complex to make trade-by-trade bases gains/deductions
>>6316358

>>6316403

(2) ExceptionThis subsection shall not apply to any exchange of—
(A) stock in trade or other property held primarily for sale,
(B) stocks, bonds, or notes,
(C) other securities or evidences of indebtedness or interest,
(D) interests in a partnership,
(E) certificates of trust or beneficial interests, or
(F) choses in action.

Nothing establishes Crypto as any of these?

>>6316830
and what if somoene makes huge gains this year and huge losses next year? they can't deduct shit?
you first have to fail then win, if you go the other way around you're fucked?

>>6316505
>federal government
>layoffs
That never happens.

These IRS guys don’t have quite that much discretion, what I suspect is that they will squeeze the balls of people who are trying to comply, rather than chase after the sneaks.

In the end, they will probably settle many of the debts based on estimates because of the manpower required to get down to the penny. They will sniff around too, and if there is a whiff of illegal activity, oil up your sex hole. U gettin raped.

>>6316918
is that the actual text of the tax law? the new version??

>>6316297
what the fuck man

>>6316918
Oddly, meme money does not seem to be mentioned anywhere in the existing tax code.

>>6317012
That's what it said word for word on the link he posted.

>>6316621
>tax evasion
>5 year maximum penalty

>>6316725
Doesn’t matter. (((They’ll))) hunt you down no matter where in the world you are.

>>6316945
correct

>>6312744
You can write in so many fake losses in here because they don't require you to specify which exchange it was traded on, or even which coin you traded for.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled (for laundering his money) was apparently just filing a 8984 saying he gained $200m doing crypto and that he'd like to tax 25% of it.

kek.

all you gotta do is buy a mining rig and say you mined all year, then write off all your electricity as a business expense.

>>6317066
You get lots of chances to pay up before it gets to criminal charges.

>>6317053
>>6317042

well then

>>6316297

this just sounds like the interpretation of someone who's buttmad they missed out on crypto / buttmad having their stocks/metals missing out on the $800b that that increased crypto?

let's wait for precedents, cuz none of the shit any silver/gold/stock investor ever said about crypto came true in practice

>>6314053
>how much do I owe Mr. IRS?
>wait

>>6317112
That is a great point.
Except for two things.
It's a felony to lie on your tax return.
When you get audited they will ask for documentation from the exchanges.

>>6317142
>>6317142
more info plz

Questions here if every trade is taxable:

Say I have some shitcoins I bought for 50cents at the time and I sell for BTC when it's at 1 dollar. That means it's a taxable event and I pay it on the 100% gain. But then when I sell BTC for fiat do I still pay tax on my overall gain from my initial investment? Or is there no fee for selling for fiat? How the fuck does that work

Second wouldn't the gains going from cyrpto to crypto be cancelled out by deductions from investing. Like if I go from shitcoins x to BTC for +500 but then buy shitcoin y with that same amount for -500 then who cares right? So wouldn't it just add up to your overall fiat cash out?

>>6317142
Schedule C

>>6317252
>The exchange is now defunkt and all records are gone.

>>6317252
>exchanges keep trade logs for 3 months

all you gotta do is buy a mining rig and say you mined all year, then write off all your electricity as a business expense

>>6317252
>Foreign exchange
Why do you suck the IRS' cock so much?

>>6312744

This is so fucking easy. Use one exchange. Document your net gains or losses every time you make a trade.

>>6312744
Just use Coinbase, seems simple enough.
>Check a box
B - basis wasn't reported
>Description of property
Amount you sold
>Date acquired
Pick a date you bought btc/ltc/eth on Coinbase
>Date sold
The date you sold on Coinbase
>Proceeds
The price for the amount you sold
>Cost or other basis
Take the date you picked for acquired, sum up all the sales you'll attribute to that date, divide the sale for the current row by the total to get some %, multiply that by the amount you bought on that day.
>Code, Adjustment
Skip
>Gain
Proceeds - cost

Why would the IRS want more paperwork? I don't get it. Just take 40% of my gains you absolute faggots.

>>6314435
definitely not the case with binance or kucoin

>>6317265
In your first question there are two sales.
So there are two rows on your 8949 form.
But it is a bitch since you crossed crypto to crypto.
I would do something like this, but I'm not a tax person, so don't listen to me.
Proceeds - Basis = Profit
Row 1: $1 - 50cents = 50 cents
Row 2: $4 - $1 = $3
Total Profit: $3.50

Question 2: yes it would be nice if you could just pay tax on your overall estimate of how much you made, but the IRS doesn't allow that.

>>6317167
Depending on the situation. A crypto trader that didn't report a couple hundred of income will get a second chance, you defraud a couple thousand or have other illegal things going on they'll nail you to the prison floor for Tyrone and his homies to take turns with you.

>>6317608
WOW I SMELL GLOW IN THE DARK

I was unironically just at a crypto meet tonight and was told by a lawyer that any trade before the new law passed does not fall under current rules. So 99% of my trades are like-kind.

Can anyone add to this? I didn't see it mentioned. Post ex facto provides constitutional protection from retroactive law changes does it not? So why the fuck would I file my trades under rules that only apply to transactions made after the 1st or whenever the law actuallt passed?

>>6317400
Just trying to let people know the facts so they can make their own informed decision.
I would love to see the income tax replaced with a national sales tax and never fill out another tax form in my life.

>>6317252
>I accidentally wrote the wrong number down.

>>6313457
Have any anons used this site? There was a thread about it a few days ago but it was deleted.

It seems too good to be true I'd it's legit. But I'm skeptical as hell considering all the scam sites out there

>>6317592
Wait sorry I'm pretty dumb. Where did you get the $4-$1 from?

I'm gonna try to make a better example. Pretend BTC is 20k this whole time.

Buy 0.5 BTC (10k) and trade for shitcoin. It doubles. You sell for 1 BTC then sell that 1 BTC for 20K. So 10K profit.

Sale 1(shitcoin to BTC): 20K - 10K = 10K
Sale 2(BTC to fiat):???

Wouldn't that second sale only be taxable if BTC increased before you sold to fiat? ie your overall net gains? Sorry for not getting this

Appreciate the help anon