/biz/ - Business & Finance

BUMP

bump

>>6204277

Nice just bought 100k ShitcoinXs

>>6204277
>the government wants you to stay poor and siphon money from you
who woulda guessed

everytime you trade a coin for different coin treat it like cashing out, then when you cash out on the second coin you are taxed again, pretty gay but thats how it works now

>>6204277
bump

>>6204277
it's difficult to determine the value to tax when trading between coins.
you could take it to court instead of paying taxes. if the IRS can't prove what the value of the exchange you made was in USD neither can you

just pay your taxes you beta cuck. i can tell you will lose your money one way or another because you are entertaining the idea of paying taxes on a thing with zero enforcement. if i asked you to fuck your sister niece cousins mother and daughters you would probably let me? oh and then i take your house and your food, cars, clothing, and kick your ass on the street. you would do that too i bet. fuck off and pay just your taxes.

Do they want a cost basis?

What if you mine some, is your cost basis electricity and computing costs, can I include my house in calculating my cost basis?

>>6204622
But that's not what the IRS stated. They told you to file the difference in price between what you bought a coin for and what you sold it for, by metric of US dollars.

Is this not a major loophole in the system? What is stopping anyone from claiming "the coin" they traded for another one was actually a purchased at a much higher rate than your "other coins" of the same type?

>>6204277
>be op
>not understand the basics of account because I'm a fucking neet
>capital gains is too hard to understand
>can't grasp cost basis
holy fuck y'all if you're too stupid to do it go hire a fucking accountant

Serious question. Say you bought $1 of silver and traded it for $2 of gold some time later. Would you be subject to US taxes? Because that seems to be more comparable to crypto trades than stocks, which I think is how they're legislating it. But I'm also a brainlet so idk what's really going on.

If you want to see how nonsensical it is try paying them in cryptocurrency and see their response.

>>6204277
it's retarded. they don't mention that.

they also add USD to the equation out of thin air. fucking kikes.

>>6204675
Yeah you're gonna get assreamed if you try and take that to court. The IRS does not fucking play and you will never win on a semantic argument.

They will tell you how much the shitcoin was trading for in BTC the day you made the trade, and how much BTC was worth in USD that day. Then the court will demand you pay the appropriate tax.

Then they will skull fuck you with fees for daring to take them to court.

>>6204737
2

These are the bitcoins I own. Point to the one worth $1500 and the one worth $5

CPA here. Probably use FIFO (first in first out) for calculation of a capital gain. So in your scenario you would have a long term capital gain of $14,996. Then the basis of ShitcoinX is $15,001.

You will file this on Schedule D.

Good luck my friend.

>>6204833
>you will never win on a semantic argument.
no really, prove to me that you can determine the value of a bitcoin at any given time. if you don't have a standard to measure then you can't enforce shit.

there has to be some basis for it, and if I lose a court case trying to at least get something definitive then good

until then fuck that noise, they're not getting any of my transaction record already

just dont file it, irs has no way to tracking any of your crypto to crypto trades on exchanges outside the us

pay your income tax, but that's it

I fully expect US gvt to ban us citizens from using international exchanges by next year, so they can steal from us

You do fifo you fucking retard. If you can't understand simple capital gains taxes exit crypto now.

>>6204894
Can you show me where it states this?

>>6204840
There's already a system for this retard
You can literally specify which one, or you can do average cost, or you can kys. People have been doing this with stocks since before you got your first psychologist consult.

>>6204999

FIFO IS FUCKING STANDARD FOR ALL CAPITAL GAINS YOU RETARD

>>6204735
i think thats' how monero works

>>6204894
This. All these retards ITT think you should be taxed for trading one pokemon card for another pokemon card. You're only taxed if you are selling a coin into USD. They can't tax you for trading a dogecoin for a niggercoin.

>>6204742
>Say you bought $1 of silver and traded it for $2 of gold some time later. Would you be subject to US taxes?
yes

How would forks or aidrops work?

Uh, heres an idea. Write everything off, say you lost it all, cash out silently, don't alert anyone, don't tell anyone anything, use international exchanges, and most importantly MAKE ACTUAL MONEY.

Again, file taxes, and make sure you're filing a loss every year. If Trump did it for 15+ years, i sure as fuck will too bitches.

>>6204277
It's taken as FIFO by default but you pay less % as it's a long-term capital gain. But I think you can opt for LIFO and will have to pay more % as it's short-term.

In your case LIFO would be less heavy on the wallet.

>>6205063
>They can't tax you for trading a dogecoin for a niggercoin.

They can and will. Every trade is a taxable event.

>>6204277
You can choose to sell the one that makes you pay the least in taxes. The purpose of capital gains tax is to scare poor and middle class people away from where the real money is made.

>>6205102
How the fuck can you can out silently when any sizeable amount of money deposited into your bank account will instantly get the IRS on your dick

What happens if I lost the keys / addresses to my old wallets that I don't remember anymore? What about the 2FA seeds I lost on my old phone so I can't login to certain exchanges anymore to access transaction records?

>>6205102
>say you lost it all

literal nigger tier evasion strategy

>>6205221
jail

>>6205270
That's fucking bullshit though, I legit don't remember 90% of the shit I've done over the last 6 months since I didn't even learn about this cocksucking change in law till a month ago.

>>6205063
what a cuck. IRS is way smarter than you dumbtard. you gotta pay taxes for all crypto transaction be it fiat or for another crypto.

For IRS, it's USD-crypto, crypto-USD-crypto and crypto-usd.

>>6205221
Then you better start liking the idea of getting a dick up your ass now.

>>6205188
Uhhh honey. Every trade to USD is. These coins aren't even accepted as currency yet, they're just "crypto assets". Like trading a pokemon card for another.

Friendly reminder that in Italy you pay taxes on crypto only if you trade more than 56.000 euros in 7 days. If you trade more you pay 26%

>>6204999
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

The IRS is still trying to come up with guidance. The way I told you to report is the safest option until further guidance is released. You can always amend the return if they come out with rules later that would benefit you.

>>6204277
>I buy 1 bitcoin for $15,000 in 2018 and 1 bitcoin for $5 in 2011. I now own two bitcoins. I want to trade one bitcoin for ShitcoinX worth $15,001 at the cost of 1 bitcoin.
You put in $15,005 and you now hold assets equivalent to $30,001. A capital gain of $14,996. Ignoring the fact that this took place over 5 years instead of within a single year, you'd have to pay taxes over $14,996 of capital gains.

>>6205339
Nope. You're some kind of an all-around crypto FUD who is trying to scare people away from getting into crypto, or you are a marketer for one of those "Crypto tax" sites. I think you are the latter, most likely, because I am investigating a number of these sites for fraud. Have a good night.

>>6204277
I ain't paying shit, their law is retarded.

>>6204277
I would suggest you account it as selling the $5 Bitcoin and getting $14,995 long term capital gains. Then when you sell the second Bitcoin in 2019 you can also get long term capital gains treatment.

If your total income is below $37,500 your long term capital rate is 0% which means you pay nothing until your total income reaches that amount and 15% thereafter

Let's say your income for the year is $30,000 - then you'd pay nothing on the $7,500 and 15% on the $7,495

What I don't know if you have to pay taxes on Bitcoin Cash because that's weird, yo

>>6204277
Use logic to screw the IRS. What you just did would back up any tax claims you file. If you get in trouble, use that logic. It’s called a loophole and you can legally use them to your advantage.

>>6205325
You were required by law to properly record every trade anon, I've been shilling this to you cucks for the entire of last year. Stop being a fucking pussy and get started on it.
>>6205439
This is fucking bullshit

Realize what you are buying and how much of it you're buying. Capital gains is on an amount higher than 20k. Cash out WITH CASH. Craigslist, LocalBitcoins, meet people face to face make an ACTUAL transaction into cash and live life normally. You bitches are just a bunch of fucks that forget what you're buying and are afraid of the IRS and dumb shit. It is literally OKAY to file a loss, trump did it for 15+ years, literally!!!!! wtf??!!?! Buy some shit, invest the money, start a new company, its only up from here, make some K's and fuckin start something real.

>>6205439
It doesnt matter. Every crypto-to-crypto trade is a taxable event...honey. It's been like that for years.

>>6205662
Meh, I'll file a loss and get it over with. Fuck them. Oh, and fuck you too.

>>6205598
Bitcoin cash should probably be reported as ordinary income at the fair market value of what is was worth when received unfortunately. It’s kinda like a dividend in sense that you obtained it from holding Bitcoin.

AHHHHHHHHH IT’S PLUMMETING!!!!!!

>>6204932
is the income tax filed when you cash out to fiat (except localbitcoins) because if you just keep decide to hold crypto, is that income or no?

how do you keep track of all the penny gains you make daytrading

Its nothing, don't cash out with an exchange. MEET SOMEONE and sell it to them, holy fuck.

>>6205766
what the fuck are you talking about file a loss? if you can't provide your cost basis your cost basis will be zero

>>6205102
>Write everything off

>>6205768
It won't get dividend treatment from the IRS, but if it's short term capital gain (ordinary income rate) then that's bullshit since it's more like a stock split than anything (I didn't sell anything yet)

Besides, does that mean I have to report Bitcoin Gold, Diamond, etc. even the forks I don't even fucking know about? That's ridiculous.

OK, so if it's only forks I'm aware of (Bitcoin Cash), does that mean if I know about it, then it's taxed? What the fuck kind of quantum taxation is this bullshit?

>>6205859
>what the fuck are you talking about
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>6205800
yes, so on the off chance you do make it you instantly go to jail because you won't be able cash out your gains fast enough to pay the taxes you owe
So you basically would have spent all that time, efffort to pay the government taxes in installments and if they coins crash and you already reported them, enjoy jail for not paying up those taxes on the gains you reported

Step 1: write a trade bot that looks for cases where it can trade for a loss in fiat, but a gain in sat/gwei
Step 2: run trade bot, acquiring BTC/ETH, but always trading for a loss in fiat
Step 3: file taxes showing all losses
Step 4: get tax credit on losses + sit on now tax free BTC/ETH

Why is /biz/ so dumb. The answer is obvious.

>>6205859
File your losses, and fud the numbers. No one will check ANYTHING unless you literally take out over 20k in one transaction to a bank account.

Meet people and sell it to them, we shill gay coins on here, do it in real life like a real bizness man, fuckin ell

>>6205874
This is how the 13 colonies started

>>6205662
>This is fucking bullshit

Go to any number of crypto pump discords. They all have GROUPS of guys shilling their "crypto tax filing sites" which promote this "coin for coin" BS. If you trade silver for gold and make gains a few years later, the IRS isn't going to knock your door saying "Sir, that gold you bought has appreciated in value. Gibs." They'll only go asking for taxes when you SELL that gold into Fiat. You are all fucking brainlets. Cucklets, even. I wouldn't be surprised if the IRS themselves were shilling in these threads to get people to overstate their gains so they can take in more money from you than they should. If you overstate how much you owe the government---guess what, they're not going to so "Ohh poor puppy, you gave us WAY too much money"! That money is gone. Bye bye. Donezo.

Cash out. Subtract your initial investment from your new cash total: that is your gains which you can be taxed from. The IRS update did NOT actually explicitly say "crypto to crpyto, coin to coin". This is a meme that is being shilled.

>>6205874
Yes it’s income out of thin air.

Maybe you could argue with an agent that it’s more like a stock split and your cost basis is $0 and you wouldn’t have to report cap gain until sold. But that is risky and I wouldn’t advise a client on that unless the IRS gave further guidance. (Which the AICPA has asked for)

>>6205439

Not quite. Every trade from one security (shitcoin) to another security (shitcoin) should be recorded with its USD equivalent. You are disposing of one asset and gaining another. This is a taxable event.

You can also offset with losses from when you bought high and sold low.

it makes zero sense and it wont be enforced. Its impossible.

Pay when you cash out and laugh at them if they try to come after you for more because they will be completely fucked.

>>6206008
Well, that implies I should know about every single Bitcoin fork in existence just so I can file more taxes

What kind of a logic is that?

>>6206032
Shitcoins are not securities.

>>6205529
No, they tax if you made gains while trading one coin for another.

if you trade $100 BTC for ETH and if ETH price goes up for an equivalent of $110, you pay tax on that $10 gain.

oh & I'm heavily invested in crypto.

>>6204277
I literally think they're going to have to have a quantum computer to figure out how to tax me lol

>>6205995
>If you trade silver for gold and make gains a few years later, the IRS isn't going to knock your door saying "Sir, that gold you bought has appreciated in value. Gibs." They'll only go asking for taxes when you SELL that gold into Fiat. You are all fucking brainlets.
You're the brainlet here.

Scenario 1:
Buy $100 of silver. It doesn't appreciate.
Trade it for $100 worth of gold. It appreciates 2x.
Trade it for $200.

In that case, you pay a percentage of the $100 in capital gains you made after you trade gold for fiat.

Scenario 2:
Buy $100 of silver. It appreciates 2x.
Trade it for $200 worth of gold. It doesn't appreciate.
Trade it for $200.

In that case, you owe the IRS the percentage on the $100 after the silver-to-gold trade, but BEFORE the gold-to-fiat trade. If you don't have any fiat on hand to pay for the capital gains, tough shit, you better sell part of your gold to cover the gap.

>>6206095
No i would say forks that you are credited with in whatever exchange you use. If it hits your account and your fiat total rises, then I would report it.

Shit I didn’t get any other forks besides Bitcoin Cash.

>>6206122
>if you trade $100 BTC for ETH and if ETH price goes up for an equivalent of $110, you pay tax on that $10 gain.
>price goes up for an equivalent of $110, you

What the fuck do you mean "if ETH goes up $10". I'm holding fucking ETH, I haven't traded it to USD yet. You act like you owe the ATH that any coin reaches any time you hold it.

>>6205929
or buy low, the non-/biz/ way.

>>6206187
I don't use an exchange, I keep my coins in a wallet. I'm "credited" with all of them if I actually decide to sell.

You didn't get anything but Bitcoin Cash, but I have forks I don't even KNOW I have. It seems like it's bullshit to require me to file for things I don't know I received.

>>6206032
>This is a taxable event.

Its not a taxable event in the realm of reality with tangibly goals and possible outcomes. The IRS does not posses MAGIC.

Report when you cash out and leave it at that. IRS shills posting on here nee to STFU you worthless piles of shit who have no fucking idea what you are talking about and have no means to enforce it.

There number of problems and possible exploits and scenarios that you bring to the table doing this coin for coin shit is astronomical.

The letter of the law is completely fucking stupid and it will not be enforced. AT FUCKING ALL.

>>6206242
>Its not a taxable event in the realm of reality with tangibly goals and possible outcomes. The IRS does not posses MAGIC.
Do you exclusively invest in private blockchain coins? Did you use a fake ID on whatever exchange you're using? If the answer is not 'Yes' to both, it's very easy for the IRS to discover fraud.

>>6206242
This. I’ll gladly pay when I cash out (some), but not a penny until then.

>>6206157
You're missing the point in my argument. Holding altcoins is like buying silver, then trading it for gold which you HODL and then, eventually, sell into FIAT. You are not taxed until you sell gold or silver into FIAT, as you yourself even noted in your scenarios, which all end in transfer to FIAT.

People claiming you are traded on crypto to crypto trades are basically saying the IRS is going to knock on your door saying "Gib me dats for dat gold sitting in your house. You didn't sell that gold yet, but its price increased by $50, give us a percent of dats!"

>>6205874
More likely the cost should be split between the initial purchase (or cost to mine) of the bitcoin that it came from at a ratio of the market value of the two coins at the start of trade post fork.

1 bitcoin purchased for $100 pre-fork

at start of trade post fork the market value in USD is
- BTC $1000
- BCH $500

BTC: 1000/1500 = 66.6%.
BCH: 500/1500 = 33.3%

Cost Base
BTC: 100*0.666= $66.60
BCH: 100*0.333= $33.30

If either fork again it gets converted from its new cost base.

>>6205995
It was never a meme and as expected was clarified by IRS last year in preparation for an ass holocaust of crypto cucks.

>>6206222
IRS thinks you sold BTC for $100 and bought ETH with that $100.

>>6206323
No, you missed my point and are now clearly illiterate as well. Read my scenario #2 again, closely. In that scenario, you are taxed when you sell silver for gold. Doesn't matter if you never sell that gold for fiat, you're still taxed on the 100% profit you made. Doesn't matter if the gold appreciates 10000% either, as long as you don't realize that gain (e.g. trade it for something else).

You pay the tax from what you bought in with fiat to what you cashed out in fiat. Everything else is conjecture. If the IRS wants to sort out each individual trade they can go ahead and do so, but good look figuring out the value of X shitcoin at X time and measuring that in dollars and figuring out how much Y it was worth at Y time, fucking retarded

>>6206364
But we literally didn’t so that’s their fault for assuming. It wouldn’t hold in court.

>>6206364
You are literally a retard. The price of BTC is tied to the exact price you traded to ETH at that exact moment, not when it goes up $10 a few hours later. Holy fuck. By your logic, I have to be taxed on every gain and loss by ETH every single nano second. I'll need a trillion dollar quantum computer to do that.

I am 100% convinced right now that the IRS is going to be constantly hit with lawsuits where they lose the majority of every single court case.

For one if you force someone to cash out the IRS is double dipping which right there is against the rules and it would be thrown out. Then you have countless examples where the letter of the law should apply to things like collectible trading cards or video game items or literally anything you can think of.

Then we will also encourage devs to make it so coins can avoid tax situations or completely hobble the IRS in ways that have yet to be concieved yet. And tax avoidance is perfectly fucking legal. And if you think that people wont open the flood gates on tons of super creative ways to fuck the IRS in new and interesting ways you are a fucking retard or an IRS shill.

Report what you cash out. Its the only fucking possible scenario.

Open a bank account in Guatemala and tell the irs to fuck themselves

>>6206332
that's the stock split basis

but it doesn't make sense either, since BTC didn't go down when BCH was created, BTC went up (???)

the split is something around 10% BCH @ 250 and 90% BTC @ 2500

and again, now I have to lower my cost basis for BTC based on forks I don't know about (???)

Of course, I'd rather do this than take short term capital gains, but shit doesn't make sense

>>6206430
This. BTC is extremely volatile, which is traded for extremely volatile alts. Calculating all of this would be pure insanity for those who do hundreds or thousands of trades in alts each day.

>>6206242

I'm not saying that the IRS can or will enforce it. I'm explaining how they view the process and when they expect you to pay tax/when the taxable event is.

I'm not talking tax minimization strategies here. The reality of crypto is that it is easier to hide profits than most other sectors. But if the IRS decide that they hate you, they might decide to invest some time in you and break it all down..

>>6206427

Exactly this.

>>6206294
>Do you exclusively invest in private blockchain coins? Did you use a fake ID on whatever exchange you're using? If the answer is not 'Yes' to both, it's very easy for the IRS to discover fraud.

They will be hit with COUNTLESS FUCKING PROBLEMS with this. You fucking IRS shitbag fucking shill. You are fucked and you cannot enforce this shit at all from ANY POSSIBLE scenario.

There is no outcome where you fucking morons are going to be able to realistically tax every coin trade. You are all fucked and you will LOSE this fight so hard it will make the war on drugs look like a damn picnic.

Report what you cash out. They are 100% powerless to do ANYTHING beyond that.

>>6205598
>What I don't know if you have to pay taxes on Bitcoin Cash because that's weird, yo lol
I'd guess youd report the Cash as a cost basis of zero and you pay capital gains on it when you sell.

In Canada we have simple tax laws.

Capital gains is basically like 20%.
Not that bad.

It's also incredibly difficult to get thrown in jail for tax evasion here.
CRA just wants their money

>>6206485
>I am 100% convinced right now that the IRS is going to be constantly hit with lawsuits where they lose the majority of every single court case.
The IRS almost never loses, nice dream though.
>For one if you force someone to cash out the IRS is double dipping which right there is against the rules and it would be thrown out.
It's not double-dipping. You're taxed on each gain once. Whether you pay a percentage on two $50 gains or one $100 gain when you fully cash out makes no difference.
>Then you have countless examples where the letter of the law should apply to things like collectible trading cards or video game items or literally anything you can think of.
The IRS is allowed discretion in which cases they pursue, as long as it isn't politically motivated/biased.
>Then we will also encourage devs to make it so coins can avoid tax situations or completely hobble the IRS in ways that have yet to be concieved yet.
Yeahno that's pretty much impossible. If it has value and gains value in your custody before selling, the IRS can define that as a capital gain no matter what it is.

>>6206595
That's what makes the most sense, but I wish IRS would issue guidance on this

Anything else is batshit insane, since it requires me to know about forks of EVERY crypto I own. Any new ETH forks out there? I don't know!

>>6206533
>I'm not saying that the IRS can or will enforce it. I'm explaining how they view the process and when they expect you to pay tax/when the taxable event is.

If the IRS claims that mermaids and unicorns are taxable events thats cool and all but they wont be taxing that either.

This is a situation where they have no power. The only place the have power is fiat. And if they FUCK with this space they will get fucked right back so hard they will lose. And if they double down they will lose twice as much.

Report on cash out only. End of fucking story.

You shills need to quit your fucking jobs.

>>6205854
>spoted the poorfag trading $500 in shitcoins

>>6204932

lol thank god I have several accounts on binance just for this, all accounts with no ID on them too. Fuck that shit.

>>6206583
I don't know why you retards find this so difficult to comprehend. Recording trades, gains, cost basis is all normal, there is software to help you. If you are audited and caught fucking around you will be told what you owe and you will pay it. Just acting like autistic faggots isn't going to get you anywhere, if you want to break the rules at least understand them first so you don't fuck it up.

>>6206466
only for gains.

I meant IRS sees it as $100 of BTC is now worth $110 and you use that to buy ETH, when you do BTC-ETH trade if you're in gains and they tax you on that $10 gains.

it's retarded but that's how it is.

>>6205995

That's not true, I got money back from the IRS when I overpaid, however this was when I had a part-time job and my company took out more taxes than they were supposed to, so that's probably different.

>>6204277
1 dollar, you fucking idiot.

Tax is based on the year not on the century you fucking cunt.

>>6206630
> The IRS almost never loses, nice dream though.

Well they are fucked right now. 100% convinced they are fucked. They are sticking their dicks in a hornets nest and they will lose. The IRS is attempting to enforce scenarios where 50% of the people who invested will owe more then they even earned. That will spark more hate then imaginable.

With that said, the IRS wont be bother going after people like this unless its a specific person for specific reasons.

The IRS will only focus on people when they cash out. Nothing else makes sense or is even possible. Ignore these shills on here. They are being paid to tell us shit that is 100% untrue so they can fucking cash in a tiny bit more.

> It's not double-dipping. You're taxed on each gain once. Whether you pay a percentage on two $50 gains or one $100 gain when you fully cash out makes no difference.

If I do not cash out, and I only have coins. ANd I owe taxes on those coins and I am forced to cash out. I will be forced to pay taxes on the cashing out. That is double dipping and you will lose in court.

> Yeahno that's pretty much impossible. If it has value and gains value in your custody before selling, the IRS can define that as a capital gain no matter what it is.

Mother fucker did you just question the power of 4chan and the internet!!!!!!???

YOU IDIOT!!!!

>>6204545
Underrated

>>6206802
They “see” it that way, but it would never hold in a court of law. You’re using $10 as an example, but what about when it goes up $1? $.50? $.01? Nobody, not the IRS, not any trader, is going to calculate every time it goes up. The only way they’ll be able to see your gains is when you cash out.

>>6204277
The whole logic behind this is like charging someone property tax from land they own in Farmville.

>>6206968
>The IRS is attempting to enforce scenarios where 50% of the people who invested will owe more then they even earned.
How is that possible? Capital gains taxes apply to a percentage of the earnings, not a percentage of the total value.

>>6204833
reminder that the IRS contracts thousands of ShareBlue employees like this one to shill online 24/7 spreading fear of the IRS with scripted comments like "The IRS does not fucking play" and "The IRS will skull fuck you with fees"

>>6206968
>IRS
>fucked
>ever
nigga the taxman is the last person you want to fuck with. They're backed by the entire US police and military. The whole purpose of those enforcement agencies is to be the gun to your head when Mr. 1040 comes knocking. Everything else that they do is secondary.

>>6207027
because they can only claim 2018 losses for 2018 taxes, so now they can't pay their taxes since that money is already gone in the crash

>>6205995
I can’t wait for you stupid fuck know it alls to get hit with fat fines and interest charges years down the line just to avoid jail. Get off 4chan and learn the fucking law.

>>6206968
Did please shut up. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. No one will owe more than theyve earned, that's impossible.

>>6207078
Loopholes are a thing and you can legally use them to your advantage, especially if you have a kike financial lawyer who can get you out of those things.

>>6206800
>I don't know why you retards find this so difficult to comprehend.

Because you are a fucking IDIOT. You cant do it. ITS FUCKING POSSIBLE. Its certainly not possible within any realm of reality. You create so many problems and you will gain little for it while sparking the hatred of the internet.

ANyone with a shred of understanding of the topic can sit back and come up with tons of situations where it would take years of legislation to even begin to work around the gray areas. And even if you did do this you would be dealing with an ever changing and evolving decentralized paradigm where a little 14 year old kid can can come up with an idea that fucking shuts the entire situation down anyway.

You not capable of enforcing this. So stop fucking trying.

We pay our fair share when we cash out end of fucking story.

>>6206991
hopefully, they only tax on cash outs.

>>6206968
You clearly have no idea what the fuck you're talking about faggot, fuck off with your pajeet tier false logics

This is pretty dumb logic. You pay sales tax on software too. I fail to see how the technology changes the fact that you are treating it as an investment. And (really it should be capital gains)
>>6204735
threat of audit I suppose. Tough to prove. under reporting income is not a brand new phenomenon. Look at taxi cab reported income to Revenue Agencies v.s. insurance companies.

>>6204277

IRS is overwhelmed, you think they have time to mess with some NEETs in their parent's basements who didn't even make 6 figures? You IRS cucks are delusional as fuck.

>>6206968
>If I do not cash out, and I only have coins. ANd I owe taxes on those coins and I am forced to cash out. I will be forced to pay taxes on the cashing out. That is double dipping and you will lose in court.
I'll explain it another way. Assume taxes are 10% for simplicity.

Buy $1000 worth of BTC.
BTC goes up 100%.
Buy $2000 worth of ETH with your BTC.
ETH goes up 100%.
Sell ETH for $4000.

You pay a flat percentage on your $1000 gained from BTC, and also a flat percentage on your $2000 gained from ETH, or $100 + $200, or $300 total.

In the case where you only pay taxes when cashing out, you pay 10% on the $3000 you made from both trades together, or $300 again. See how that works out the same? It's not double-dipping. The reason they complicate it is because a person could conceivably trade for years without ever cashing out, and the IRS wants a more constant money stream.

>>6207142
I don't understand what you think is not possible? You audit an anon, see bank transfers to coinbase and go from there.. It is fucking dead simple

EVERYBODY will not be audited, the idea is to be prepared if you are.

>>6207027
Because if you go by coin to coin trades and you are only allowed to report 3k of losses and you end up losing more than 3k you need to pay up on taxes anyway.

And the IRS will only be using the ATH of each coin as a point of reference if they feel they can get away with it.

>>6204813
not legal tender retard.
>>6207185
The problem with this is I didnt make any capital gains till I cash out. For all you know I could lose all the gains inbetween.

>>6207185
>The reason they complicate it is because a person could conceivably trade for years without ever cashing out, and the IRS wants a more constant money stream.

People would just use anything but dollars to trade to avoid taxes, the loopholes would be massive

>>6207039
>nigga the taxman is the last person you want to fuck with. They're backed by the entire US police and military.

Paying your fair share in a realistic and tangible way is not fucking with the tax man. When the tax man wants to destroy crypto currency by expecting impossible outcomes and over complicating things the tax man loses hardcore in court and they get defended even more.

The tax man has no power when the tax man over extends.

>>6207185
Yes, but what if I buy $2000 worth of ETH with my BTC, it goes up to $4000, then drops to $1000? According to the IRSIDF I’d have to pay tax on my gains ($300) even though I only had $1000 left which would leave me with only $700 left.

Also most people working at the IRS are already overwhelmed with work, and having to sort out 1 million trades in trade history from thousands of crypto traders is just going to make it worse. I seriously doubt anyone here will get audited unless they cash out straight to a bank account and don't pay taxes on that. Otherwise, IRS has no resources to know what exchanges you are using (especially if you only use Chinese ones) let alone if you hold coins like Monero in a wallet. Anyone who says otherwise is a shill or scaremongering fucktard.

>>6206364
Why is this so hard for people to understand?? Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that the irs will change just for you.

>>6207248
Jesus fucking christ, that NET CAPITAL LOSS against INCOME

How do we outjew the government?

Does tax code assume that you're going to make market-value trades at all times? For example, if you were to make an off-market trade of $100k LTC for $20k BTC with an unknown overseas individual, would you be able to consider that a loss in your gross profits for the year?

>>6207151
The problem is, I do know what I am talking about. You we just have IRS shills on here making shit up to scare people.

Pay when you cash out. Anything else is batshit insane and unenforcable.

These shills are fucking idiots. They have no arguments. They have no way to prove anything.

They are useless bags of air.

>>6207293
>The problem with this is I didnt make any capital gains till I cash out.
But you did, in my hypothetical scenario. Capital gains aren't just fiat.

You're right that it's likely to make gains and losses when trading; if your losses are similar to your gains, then yeah you probably don't have to worry much because overall your gains were miniscule, and the IRS has already said that they don't care about gains less than $600 or so (iirc).
>>6207366
Did you sell your ETH at the peak or at the bottom of the drop? If the former, it's irrelevant, you don't own ETH anymore. If the latter, then the capital losses you incurred cancel out the gains you made.

>>6207386
>muh no way of knowing

of course they fucking do, like seizing all cuckbase records. just ignoring and hoping not to get looked at is exactly what everyone who gets pinged has done.

Anyone heard of SALT? Their coin is shit but their model seems like a tax loophole.

>you give someone $100k worth of shitcoin as collateral
>they give you $100k in cash as a loan
>loans are... untaxed?

Then those funny guys can hold the coin or cash them out in a country with no capital gains tax or something.

>>6207404
It’s hard for me to understand because it’s simply not true. I don’t give a flying fuck what the IRS “thinks”, I care about what really happened. I wouldn’t sell my BTC for USD then buy ETH. I’d just trade BTC for ETH. Until I get my hands on cold hard fiat, it doesn’t matter what they “think”.

>>6207489
It matters quite a lot. If you have literally no fiat on hand, you're just fucking yourself.

>>6207466

Anyone who uses Coinbase and not expecting to get taxed is fucking stupid. I'm talking about Binance and Kucoin accounts. They don't require any sort of ID, just an email and a phone.

>>6207185
>I'll explain it another way. Assume taxes are 10% for simplicity.

Ok how about you stop trying to explain.

The situation is, a person has coins and no fiat. They are no expected to cash out and pay twice as much in taxes.

You are double dipping. You are a dumb shill and you will lose in court.

> Buy $1000 worth of BTC.
> BTC goes up 100%.
> Buy $2000 worth of ETH with your BTC.
> ETH goes up 100%.
> Sell ETH for $4000.

That's a pre-canned response you completely tried your little heart out to side step my point so you can meet your quota of shill responses. You lost the argument you have nothing to bring to the table.

Forcing a person to cash out is not only double dipping but its also a against civil rights because you will be attacking that persons freedom as well.

>>6207029
fucking kek

>>6207555
nice trips

I don't think they care about $3k gains

>>6207455
>But you did, in my hypothetical scenario. Capital gains aren't just fiat.
they are though. Crypto isn't legal tender, its an asset.
>if your loses are similar to your gains.
Sure but what if you have massive gains report it, pay taxes. Then the tulip bubble pops and your losses are WAAAY more than you can report and you never even cashed out? intuitively to me taxes should be on transfers or cashing out.

>>6207438
cucked beyond all existence

>>6207470

I'm surprised people haven't noted yet that tether in itself is also a tax loophole too.

>>6207438
No. You need to understand whatever retarded conversation with the taxman and the judges you have in your head is not going to fucking happen. If you are pulled up you won't even dare to utter any of this trash when you realize how completely fucked you are. The taxman will tell you coldly to pay an unfair amount, which you will have to pay, because you didn't bother to get yourself any legs to stand on.

Your strategy is literally 'hope' you don't get caught. It's fucking pissweak.

>>6207306
>People would just use anything but dollars to trade to avoid taxes, the loopholes would be massive

Its easier to enforce this rule with most other things. Gold and silver, houses and things like that are proven to be taxable.

Crypto on the other hand is completely different situation. That's kind of way its such a big deal, if you haven't been paying attention.

>>6207555
This. But MOST anons when they bought in did not consider an evasion plan from the beginning and just got in whatever way is easiest.

If you bought in with cash off some cuck on the street and used no doc exchanges you've probably thought your plan through, or at least started to.

>>6207172
I definitely cashed out 6 figures in crypto, it feels sick how complicated my taxes are

I have to calculate cost basis going back to 2011 by estimating WTF I did with those mtgox bitcoins

>>6207555
Yeah but it makes cashing out a bit harder since none of those exchanges trade fiat for crypto. Obviously it's always possible to evade taxes, no one is saying it's impossible, it's just risky especially if you're an American and have left any form of papertrail, which most people trading probably have.
>>6207582
>waaaaaaaaaah if I say you don't have an argument then you don't
Not even trying anymore.
>>6207620
>they are though. Crypto isn't legal tender, its an asset.
So is property, which you also have to pay capital gains on.
>Sure but what if you have massive gains report it, pay taxes. Then the tulip bubble pops and your losses are WAAAY more than you can report and you never even cashed out?
Yeah in that case you're pretty fucked. A rule of life in general, always have some cash on hand.

>>6207614

I doubt most NEETs on here even have 6 figures to begin with, so yes. Even still, you could have 6 figures worth of Monero sitting in a wallet somewhere and just cash out directly into cash via a 3rd party. It's not hard.

>>6207626
How so? Brainlet here.

Only thing I can think of is keeping your net worth in tether and having 0 income so you can cash out a few ten grand a year without capital gains.

>>6206630
Kek, no. The IRS is a dead man walking. Let me put this to you in capital letters:

PRIVATE SEND, OBFUSCATION, HIDDEN WALLETS ARE NOT THERE JUST TO BE COOL FEATURES!!!!!

The war has already begun, its just that most of the crypto world has not come to the realization that crypto is a revolution against the government-banking complex just yet. Most of them haven't realized that.

The crypto world is already on track to fuck the IRS, we're already halfway there. Monero is already part of the equation, once the decentralized exchanges come, there is nothing stopping people from sending their money to the exchanges and obfuscating their TX's.

All that really matters is real world adoption of crypto - once that happens, then its pretty much over. The Anon coins + Decentralized exchanges (which are coming, fast) pretty much spells doom for the IRS, they will have no way of enforcing the tax laws, the only way would be direction conversions to fiat. It's the only way, and even then....

you're dealing with the crypto world here. Crypto was practically made as the out to fiat currency. The writing is on the wall, people just havent realized that yet.

>>6207626
how? Selling for tether is a taxable event

>>6207626
It isn't a loophole at all if you realize gains by converting other crypto to USDT

>>6207455
I’m arguing the point where you said it would be the same whether you cashed out or paid per gain/trade.

In my case at a 10% it would be $300 by taxing each gain
>buy $1000 in BTC
>rises to $2000 ($100)
>trade for $2000 ETH
>rises to $4000 ($200)
>sinks to $1000
$1000-$300 in taxes = $700

>buy $1000 in BTC
>rises to $2000
>trade for $2000 ETH
>rises to $4000
>sinks to $1000
$1000-$0 in taxes = $1000

$0 taxes paid if taxes on a break even cash out, $300 in taxes on a break even cash out of paying taxes on each gain.

>>6207582
>forcing them to cash out.
They aren't you fucking retard. Which A) doesn't violate the constiution. B) isnt even true. You pay taxes in USD based on your gainz. No reason you need to cash out anything.
>>6207703
>so is property
You only pay capital gains on (2nd or more) property when you SELL. if you inherit a house and live in it, you don't pay capital gains on it.
>then your fucked.
Moreso than most because you paid capital gains on money you never had.

>>6204277
Thank god ATO is more sensible and tries to tax only the final profit

>>6207750
Last time the federal government had issues collecting money, they literally made owning gold illegal and raised taxes to 90%. If you're willing to leave the country and live off your crypto gains, good luck to you, but the IRS isn't the slightest bit scared about crypto killing their ability to collect money.

>>6207848
oh for fucks sake

>>6207807
when you bought BTC with ETH, that's a taxable event and you own cash

now your BTC went to shit and you don't have money to pay your taxes since it's worth only $13k and when you bought it with ETH you paid $19k in ETH

too bad you still owe taxes (???)

>>6205070
>>Say you bought $1 of silver and traded it for $2 of gold some time later. Would you be subject to US taxes?
>yes
no...
that is a like kind exchange. you pay no tax until you sell

>>6207858

Last time people tried leaving they also raised the cost of renunciation to over $2000. I feel like crypto will make them raise it to $5000 or more, with taxing you on the way out as well. Just another way to fuck us all over. Thank god I have dual citizenship, giving up Americuck citizenship as soon as I hit 500k or more (not too far away).

exchanges are supposed to provide you with a yearly report that calculates all this shit for you, that's how it works with stock trading sites yeah? they cant possibly expect everyday joe's to track it themselves to this level of complexity

>>6207858
>the IRS isn't the slightest bit scared about crypto killing their ability to collect money
That would be the case if there wasn’t the gigantic loophole of them trying to tax each gain. Literally impossible. Nobody’s saying they would be afraid to tax us, we’re just saying it would be impossible for them to tax us the way they want to. The only way they could accurately tax us is when we cash out for fiat. Only then will they be able to see our gains.

>>6207627
I pay my taxes on what I cash out on. I am not getting away with anything.

I will then begin laughing at you IRS cucks as I watch headlines pop up about some multimillionaire neet you dumb asses decided to take to court fucks you in the ass. becomes a public figure with a following and begins the process of filling in the actual gray areas of legislation.

Its a matter of time before this happens and it will be huge all over the internet while we basically watch the IRS take a giant shit on itself and the next generation of record conservative kids decide the to vote on the first idiot who promises to defend the IRS even more.

Or, we all quietly pay our fair share on cash out.And this whole thing goes away.

>>6207787
Your scenarios don't specify when you sell ETH. Until you do, it doesn't matter what the price of ETH is. If you sell at $4000, then you pay the 10% on the gains made, and your hands are free of ETH's future price. If you sell at a loss of $1000, you pay zero taxes because they cancel out your $1000 gain from selling BTC.

>>6207858
That doesn't matter. Nothing lasts forever, including the IRS' (and our governments') reign of terror and criminal injustice.

This is the beginning of the end of the IRS and, in turn, the criminal American government. The writing is on the wall.

How many people here are aware of the Banker Elites that criminally run this nation? That run the mafia known as the IRS, that ILLEGALLY tax us for income tax, that was never part of this countr to begin with?

You ever hear of those soveiregn citizens? Do you know that they arent crazy kooks, that they are actually correct? Our government has been hijacked for years. The IRS is a criminal organization, its a racket,along with the FEDERAL RESERVE that prints money out of thin air. Both psuedo-private organizations. Mafias.

Well, their reign of terror is coming to an end. Its a new age. Crypto moves way too fast for the government to keep up. The IRS is finished - you may need to pay your taxes this year, and next, but in the coming years ahead, the IRS is fucked. And the tighter they grasp, the quicker the crypto world reacts.

>>6204277
This is done on purpose to stop/discourage the wealth redistribution from the boomers to gen z and younger millenials. The Jews are freaking out

>>6207893
yeap. That's not forcing you to "cash out"
I mean
>dont deduct income tax from source
>spend entire annual net income on a car
>tax season comes up
>WTF!? THE GOVERNMENT IS VIOLATING MY CIVIL RIGHTS FORCING ME TO SELL MY CAR TO PAY MY TAXES!
except they are not. You hold more crypto than you can afford to pay taxes on. Thats not the government 'forcing" you to cash out. Get a second job, sell your car, sell your bonds, empty your emergency fund, there are 100 options and you are projecting your mismanaged finances onto the government as coercion.
I mean pro tip. The concept of "I owe money I cant pay in cash so I have to liquidate assets" has existed for thousands of years and has happened a billion times in the united states alone.
"I dont hold any cash/demand deposits" has never been a valid out of taxes.

>>6207976
If I purchase a car for $3,000 , and a year later trade it for two rare pieces of art, when will I be taxed? They'd somehow come audit me and calculate FMV of the art pieces and car and demand I pay taxes then and there? Or would they only give a fuck when I one day sell those art pieces for $X

>>6207976
So then if it’s the total gain that’s being taxed then why do all the IRS shills keep saying it’s EACH gain that’s going to be taxed? Taxing the total gain would be the same as taxing whatever you cash out.

>>6207807
>B) isnt even true.

dude if the person doesn't have the fiat they are forced to cash out and get taxed twice. Blah blah blah shill shill shill

That's double dipping. And its forcing someone to do something you don't technically have a right to tell them to do.

>>6208095
I'm saying your trade is in 2017, but your losses are in 2018

it's a little bit unfair, considering you didn't receive any cash and now you may or may not be able to afford paying your taxes

and then, your losses are just subtracted $3000 a year at a time from your taxes per year... that's kind of fucked since your gains you had to pay immediately but you don't get a check from the IRS for your losses

>>6208114
you get taxed on the value of the car, not the art pieces

>>6208132
because the IRS wants your money now, not later

>>6207893
Exactly, the IRS will be hit with this and its going to look like a monster going after 14 year old kids who got lucky with a shitcoin and then lost it all.

The IRS is fucked.

>>6204277
Why not trade during dips like these and be taxed on a "loss"? If you are taxed for gains made each trade and you buy lower shouldn't they owe you money?

>>6207413
To outjew the jew, one must become the jew.

>>6207976
you can only report on 3k loss though.

>>6208268
Yes. A realized loss is subtracted from realized gains

>>6208147
see
>>6208095
thats not double dipping. Not holding enough cash/demand deposits never got you out of paying money you owe. You have full freedom to liquidate whatever asset you see fit to make payments. otherwise I'd just take out a huge loan, put it all in crypto default then cash out.
>>6208174
thats a different problem entirely, and I agree it's B.S. but "forcing you to cash out" double dipping "or civil rights violation" is childish and laughable.

>>6208268
You can only claim 3k in losses
You’re taxed on every trade under the new law

>>6208308
Again anon, this is net capital loss against income

>>6208229
Well not exactly look like a monster but they simply wont be able to enforce it. Like I said its the beginning of the end of the IRS, this is a revolution against the criminal government-banking-industrial complex Zionist elites that run this nation. Obfuscation is not there to be a cool feature. Monero wasnt made just to be some cool altcoin.

As of righr now, the IRS can still track us. However, once the Decentralized exchanges come along with the Anonymous atomic swaps, then they are truly fucked

>>6208308
Only where income is concerned. For capital losses, there is no limit. Remember Trump's tax return leaked last year?

>>6208095

You had to cash out to buy the car... dumbass.
next

HELP US TRUMP

>>6208358
"leaked". you're all fools

>>6208370
No you moron. Im talking fiat, income. I earned. Spent it on a car. Taxes come due I dont have the cash. I have to sell the car. This is the same logic you are using with putting money in crypto, saying government cant force me to sell the car because civil rights somehow preclude you from debt you can't pay in cash/demand deposits or cheques. Its naive, borderline retarded thinking. If I had to pay the tax and didnt want to take peofits, I'd just use money from my bank account. Problem solved didn't have to cash out.

>>6207241
you're a retard, until you go back to cash there is no possible way to calculate the dollar amount at which you should be taxed. the order books dont have magical exact numbers at which the price is there is a ton of ways to interpret that.

how can the irs say they have a dollar amount of taxes for you until you cash out?

which exchanges and prices will be allowed to calculate your taxes?

WHO the FUCK determines exactly what the prices are at each price tick between every trading pair?


the capital gains of dollars cannot be calculated on the intertrading of various crypto coins only on the gains you made when you pull your money out anything else is hand waving calculations which cannot be tied to ACTUAL DOLLAR AMOUNTS

>>6208343
wait, are you fucking serious?
i've already lost 100k from buying high and selling low, but in the process of arriving at this shitty outcome, i also made literally thousands of trades in between where i bought low and sold high.
i've already lost so much from my shitty trades, but now you mean to tell me that the thousands of profitable trades i made in between are going to need extra chunks taxed out of it because the loss trades DON'T CANCEL THEM OUT due to this fucking 3k cap? who the FUCK came up with this 3k cap?
fuck this shit, i'm ready to kill the first Jew i see on the street

>>6208327
>thats not double dipping. Not holding enough cash/demand deposits never got you out of paying money you owe.

And you will be taken to court. Lose because its double dipping. Because you forced him to pay double taxes when the person never had any money in the first place.

Become the next most hated thing for an entire new generation. This always works out great long term doesnt it? Becoming total monsters attacking neet teens.

I mean just look at the scare tactics you shills employ right now. You guys have NO clue how to properly handle this situation. You are doing more damage even BEING here and shilling for the IRS.

The reality is its not enforcable. Just let it go. You might as well start attacking kids for trading pokemon cards. Because the letter of the law clearly states trading assets is a taxable event right?

>>6208613
Just don't pay it gosh.

If there's no proof the trades ever existed how can they tax you? :^)

>>6204277


the First in First out method will probably be used depending of your country tax law.

>>6208580
No anon you are a fucking retard. There is a possible and required method of taking the BTC - FIAT value from a reputable exchange on the day of the trade.

Unless you're completely fucking demented you will understand this will work out better for you than the order books giving you a magic number because if you do it you are able to select the price that best suits you.

Who the FUCK determines it you want to be you, but if you do not determine it the tax man will and he will give you the price that's best for him.

It is this fucking simple, and there is software to help you.

>>6208555
>No you moron. Im talking fiat, income. I earned. Spent it on a car.

How exactly is fiat income the same thing as some kid having a few thousand ripple he bought at 10 cents each?

Oh no Ripple went up to 100 dollars each! THROW THE 14 year old in fucking jail!!!

Your argument is none existent.

> until you go back to cash there is no possible way to calculate the dollar amount at which you should be taxed.

^ that pretty much. Hit the kid with taxes after he WILLINGLY decides to cashout on his own accord. Its not double dipping at that point. Because the cashing out is when he pays his fair share.

>>6207029
100% this......they will never find your coins

>go to coinbase
>calculate how much bitcoin you bought vs how much you sold
>the difference is your capital gain/loss

>>6208555
>This is the same logic you are using with putting money in crypto, saying government cant force me to sell the car because civil rights somehow preclude you from debt you can't pay in cash/demand deposits or cheques.

Actually what you are arguing is that if someone buys are car. And the car goes up in value for some reason on blue book or some arbitrary listing. The person should be forced to sell his car to pay the taxes. He will also lose his job (future gains) and be totally fucked for reasons completely out of his control.

Civil rights abuse bitch. You want to ruin this fuckers life because the car supposedly went up in value by some arbitrary amount.

>>6208889
You fucking idiot the event happens on disposal of the asset, he had to dispose of the property to owe the taxes

>>6208613
Dude its not enforcable. And if they do come after you its your duty to make a huge stink about it on social media so we can punish the IRS.

>>6208627
I dont know who "you" is you projecting mongoloid, but its not double taxes. You pay once. "never had any money" is false. you held assets, i.e. crypto. If I own $10mil of assets, whether it is real estate, cars, crypto or dragon dildos. And owe $1million whether its to the government, bank or otherwise. My holding of fiat, past present, or future doesnt matter. I have to pay up. And that means liquidation. Its very common with inheritance(though note fully owned, never sold propert doesnt have capital gains till you cash out, take nite IRS) Everything is money really, just to varying liquidity transaction costs and value. The rest of your post is moronic. I don't support the tax for many pragmatic reasons and bias against losses. And you are mentally ill for projecting this weird persona on a random 4chan shitposter and taking some whiteknight stance, especially when you dont understand taxes or law at all.
>>6208613
$3k cap makes perfect sense with traditional investment and normal capital gains, else it encourages excessive risk taking and exploitation.
>>6208781
>how is fiat income the same as a kid having a few thousand ripple.
Income is income, capital gains is capital gains, and assets are assets. You are just to young/poor (no offence) if this isn't self evident to you. USD, ripple, cars, houses all the assets side of a balance sheet.
>>6208889
thats how property tax works. But i digress. Im not supporting the tax Im explaining how owing money works with assets v.s. cash since you dont seem to grasp it. Nothing to do with civil rights like you falsely claim.

>>6208723
>There is a possible and required method of taking the BTC - FIAT value from a reputable exchange on the day of the trade.

you completely ignored the part where the fiat price is two degrees of separation. also define "reputable exchange" also define "price" you are serious stupid if you cant get a glimpse of the issues I'm bringing up, and how profound they are. If you think the IRS will allow your interpretation you are wrong not to mention the volatility of potential capital gains calculation is extremely large depending on how you interpret the information.

I'm pretty sure you've never traded because the number of ways to interpret this information is nearly infinite.

>It is this fucking simple, and there is software to help you.

no theres not you idiot like kind exchanges don't have tax software because having a taxable event at like kind exchange has never been a thing. unless youre seriously telling me trading pokemon cards has special tax software?

>>6208941
Boom

Part of the core functionality of a car is that it is transportation.
Part of the core functionality of crypto is that you trade it.

So in order for this example to be accurate every time he drives the car from one location to another the car changes in value. And is considered another car.

this is the funniest /biz/ thread i've read in a while

>>6207013
Fucking kek'd.

>>6209105

you actually think they're going to subpoena all these foreign exchanges so they can get trade info on millions of fucking trades? they can barely manage normie shit right now. fuck outa here.

>>6209105
You merely cease being a fucking retard and take the average fucking price from an exchange you could reasonably argue is reputable. The tax man does not give a shit about your infinite fucking retardation, if you look like you're fucking with him he'll be happy to take over for you. It is not a like kind exchange, and crypto does have special tax software.

>>6209267
These tax threads are all over the web for various countries.
Seems like the vast majority has a lot of problems figuring out how to fill out their tax forms, without getting fucked.

>>6209201
no you absolute moron.
His complaint was he owed money in taxes, he could not afford to pay unless he liquidated some crypto. I gave an example of not being able to pay taxes unless I liquidated my car. Has nothing to do with taxes on the car itself. For the example to work cars could literally be tax free. its irrelevant. You are not "forced" to sell crypto to pay taxes, anymore then you are forced to sell your car.

>>6209201
The car does change in value, and you expense the depreciation.

>>6209105
I understand you, you can not trade anything but eth, and btc for USD, everything else is valued in SATS that said, read The Trade Or Business Scam, completely lays out the law and case precident, the key to winning is to avoid flawed arguments and not play their fucking game

>>6209055

Again you are using examples that are not relatable to crypto. capital gains on property is a thing its been done. We generally know how it works.

Crypto is not anything like any other kind of asset. In order to properly tax capital gains on crypto you would have to go down an extremely complicated path which is ultimately not enforceable anyway.

That's all there is to it. Stop using examples for other things. A house and a car are not fucking examples you can use.

In order to make it so you have to enforce taxes on crypto you will have to enforce taxes on pretty much everything. Assets in video games, trading cards, you name it.

The letter of the lay does basically say you owe taxes on your Wolrd Of Warcraft gold. But its not taken seriously. Not until you cash out. Crypto is closer to that. digital assets.

>>6209273
this. literally take the cheapest exchange btc prices at the time of purchaee/sale and then under report it. Not that hard. as I said earlier itt. Y'all motherfuckers should see cab drivers report income.

>>6209055
>excessive risk taking
There is literally no such thing as a non-risky currency investment what the fuck am I reading?

>>6209442
no. Its literally an asset you hold. Plenty of countries have easily enforceable common sense capital gains. The hard part is sales tax/tx taxes. You dont owe taxes on wow gold bevause it is not an asset. ceypto is am asset, in a traditional sense. I can liquidate it easier than almost all assets infact. considering it is basically a currency. The argument it cant be compared to a house or a car works in my favour because it is actually waaay more liquid.
>>6209489
the more risk you can right off, the more risk people will feasibly take. Common sense utility maximization. People are risk averse. Every investment has risk. But putting $1000 into eth, is not the same as $10,000 into a shitcoin PND hoping for a 10x. Let alone either being as safe as a government bond. saying all three are the same because they all include some risk is moronic.

>>6208613
>ready to kill the first Jew you see on street
At least do a synagogue, take as many of them out as you can

>>6208826

sounds good to me. that's my plan.

>>6206718
They have power the moment you cash out to fiat and they see way more Bitcoins then you started with and that's all they need to legally fuck you up

>>6209601
>no. Its literally an asset you hold.

So is my CS:GO weapon skins. The IRS is getting into some insane territory at this point.

If your argument is that CS:GO weapon skins dont count because X

Then we will make crypto that behaves in those X reasons. Ripple is a centralized currency that is functionally identical to CS:GO weapon skins. "OH but valve put in its EULA that you are not allowed to sell for money" Well an EULA can be comprised but not enforced for a crypto as well.

> Plenty of countries have easily enforceable common sense capital gains.

Yeah for non digital assets. Once you get into digital assets you throw all of it out the window. None of those rules apply anymore and you will cause an endless arms race to the bottom where ultimately you cant enforce it anyway.

> The hard part is sales tax/tx taxes. You dont owe taxes on wow gold bevause it is not an asset.

Funny, because it is, and people do make lots of money selling it. There are people who make a living selling WoW gold. And you want to know when the IRS starts to give a shit?

When they cash out.

> in a traditional sense.

None of this is traditional. welcome to shit that's never happened before.

> The argument it cant be compared to a house or a car works in my favour because it is actually waaay more liquid.

The house and the car are easily tracked and the value is easily tracked. With digital assets you are hit with every possible inconceivable untraceable overflow of random shit constantly evolving shit.

Lets go with the pay when you cash out thing so everyone wins. Taxing digital assets is a complete disaster.

UNLESS!! The IRS uses a digital asset to tax digital assets. Then the process can be automatically integrated. That would work and it would solve the problems.

Otherwise, the IRS is completely fucked.

Hey faggots guess what
you don't magically owe the government money you trade for alts

If you make a gain on the alt when you sell it, it gets added to your tax liability, if you sell the alt for a loss, the USD lost gets deducted from your tax liability. The tax liability at the end of the year is what you get taxed on. You just have to prove to the IRS that you made the trades.

>>6209833
Sure then I pay my taxes on the cash out and nothing happens because it would be a worthless hassle otherwise.

Because that's exactly what will happen.

Capital gains seriously fucks you if you're breaking 6 figures a year, and that's coming from someone that's in a state without income tax.
If I ever break 7 figures this year, I'm seriously thinking about finding citizenship in another country.

Renounce your citizenship and move to a country that isn't doing this kind of shit.

>>6210009
I was thinking of going to Honk Kong if I hit 7 figures.

>>6209940
Im convinced you are being obtuse if you cant tell the difference between a CS;go skin and a currency because "THEY ARE BOTH DIGITAL HOW DO YOU TAX DIGITAL!?" no way you are this braindead. IDK how it works in your country but I already pay sales taxes on digital gamez
>ZOMG HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE ITS DIGITAL!?!?
Because the government isn't fucking retarded, they just collect taxes PoS.
>yeah for non digital assets.
no I mean literal crypto. You think its just been free range tax evasion world wide?
>people make money selling WoW gold.
Then they are obligated to pay taxes, no different.
>none of this is traditional.
Basic traditional accounting predates the automobile and IRS, and it will outlive Crypto.
>untraceable
Yeah auditing individual crypto trades will be nigh impossible. Similar to cab fares or cash tips. People can, will and should undereport. Obvious discrepancies will still exist and cashing out is traceable. So is spending habits and accumulation of other assets.trust me, I've worked in tax policy, this isn't some unheard of revolutionary problem. Hell, I've worked as a server who got cash tipout everynight, think there was some system to catch me there?... Al Capone went to jail because of tax evasion. Report $1000 crypto gains when you made $100,000 they will catch you. Skip reporting a few individual trades act like you HODLed when you didnt report your cash out amount only. The government will continue to function and we will all sleep soundly at night. Crypto isnt the birth of under reporting.

All the IRS cares about is if you make a good faith effort to report your capital gains. In other words, do the best you can. The only way you'll get fucked is if you deny making any money on crypto.

>>6209986
Most of the time nothing happens, less than 1% of people are audited, this doesn't mean the rules are different just that statistically you would expect to get away with it, you would also expect numerous anons to be caught in the sweep though, I don't want the jew getting more than their fair share.
>>6210257

>>6210327
I'm scatter brained so if I make a limp-wristed attempt and seal it with a smile and good faith it'll be "good enough". I can deal with that.

Also what's the rule about holding for longer than a year something about the cost of the capital gain lowers or something?

The IRS cares that I'm paying almost 40% of my gains to buy night vision goggles so they can train 18 year old GI fucking Joe to kill gooks in a tunnel. And after GI Joe steps on a booby trap, I'll have to pay for this crippled fucking dumbass who thought he would be blasting away gooks with runaway healthcare fees and free education because MUH VETRANS.

>>6208308
Hand on a second. You can only claim/deduct 3k as a loss, but the rest of the money you "lose" doesn't suddenly become a disposal right?

Or if you gain 100k in crypto, then proceed to lose 100k in crypto, will you get taxed on 100k you don't have?

>>6210420

shit if i know. just go to coinbase and run the reports

>>6209940
Should also mention its not as hard as you think.
If your principal is 1btc and you cash out 5 btc. That means you must report how you turned 1 btc into 5btc AND the appreciation on the 5btc. The name of the game however is report earning the satoshis for as little $usd as possible on as few trades as possible. But the total amount will effectively be the same anyway so they dont need to further audit. But no they won't ransack all your exchange accounts
>>6210438
Id be fine with this desu. But unfortunately you are way to optomostic/naive. Most of the military budget is paying autists to help special needs kids cross the street, sitting around a base in a flyover state and waving flags.

>>6210009
How does it fuck you? Isn't cap gains at a lower % than normal income?

>>6210493
If you gain 100k in crypto then lose all 100k in crypto your net gain is zero. You can claim up to 3k loss against your income

>>6210438
Don't forget goy, you get to subsidize section-8 housing and welfare for Dayquan since he's unfortunate and can't get employed because of you racist goyim, and his 20 children to 20 different baby mommas who all are also on welfare and in section-8 housing. Don't be stingy with your money that you slaved and agonized in earning goy, think of poor Dayquan.

For once Slovene government is being smart and understands cryptos a bit. Profits from trading are not taxed here

Since I only paid 40$ USD for ETC on the 29th of December last year and didn't receive the transaction till the 5th of January of last week on coinbase do I have to still file a report to the IRS?

I didn't start buying and selling on binance until last week of the 5th.

>>6204277
Pay your taxes amerimutts, Someone's got to pay for Shaniqua's nigglets.

>>6210566
Just making sure I get the picture, the 100k lost can only come out of income from the fiscal year you lost it in right?

>>6210310
>CS;go skin and a currency because "THEY ARE BOTH DIGITAL HOW DO YOU TAX DIGITAL!?" no way you are this braindead.

> Because the government isn't fucking retarded, they just collect taxes PoS.

I dont know, you are a shill and you see retarded. You dont understand how insanely complex and fruitless it would be to try and get people to track every single trade when its hundreds of them a day. You also believe that digital assets follow the same rules as real world assets. You greatly underestimate ingenuity to get around paying taxes using legal techniques as well. But you also assume its even possible anyway. You have no clue how crypto even works. you have no idea how integration of crypto on more complex systems is the greatest strength of crypto. You have no clue how many potential scenarios are created through insane number of situations. You have no idea on how this would cause us to have to think about thing other than crypto differently.

> Then they are obligated to pay taxes, no different.

Yep when they cash out. The IRS doesnt track every trade in WoW and expect that to be how much you owe.

I mean you are fucking retarded if you think people who cash out pokemon cards are taxed on every trade. lol

No, you pay when you cash out. Anything else is a complete fucking mess.

> Basic traditional accounting predates the automobile and IRS, and it will outlive Crypto.

Welcome to the matrix bitch

> I've worked in tax policy, this isn't some unheard of revolutionary problem.

I can tell.

> Al Capone went to jail because of tax evasion.

If crypto existed back then. They would never have been able to get him. That is how profound a situation this is.

Pay when you cash out.

Just buy EGAS and hold it...13mil max supply and the price is sub $0.10 - at $1 it will only be 13mil market cap and even if it turns out to be a scamcoin thats still 10x returns.
Take a look@ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethgas/

>>6210505
I don't even have any reports.

>>6210802
forgot image

>>6210835

you have to click on "new report" to generate one

>>6210723
>You dont understand how insanely complex and fruitless it would be to try and get people to track every single trade when its hundreds of them a day

You keep bringing this up, there is nothing complex about it, if you have no records the tax man will apply a worst case scenario taxing you on a cost basis of zero. Well actually, in reality what will happen is you will beg him to give you time to accumulate them and scurry around in a panic whimpering like a little bitch struggling to get it all together.

Aside from the legal requirement it's merely good practice to keep records for yourself, you aren't some fucking hero by not doing this, only a grub.

>>6211002
nice try IRS

>>6210867
Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

>>6210673
I believe. keep in mind its based on trades/sales. Not pressing f5 on blockfolio.
>complex and fruitless.
Yeah man like Cab Fares. Not possible they should just get tax exempt status! I think it should be based on cashing out. But its not hard. Exchanges keep records, and tax software exists. Obviously everyone and their mother will under report. But again this is nothing new.
>greatly underestimate getting around taxes, with legal techniques
Tax avoidance is normal, long predates ceypto (and is better to do outside crypto) And is encouraged. As for tax evasion. Again all they really care about is money in and out which is trackable as fuck.
>you have no clue how crypto works
Based on what? you keep saying this when I think you are the one who has it backwards. You think it teleports you to a magicland where government cant measure cash flows or assets and because its digital cant possibly be an asset or taxed. And don't grasp the whole blockchain ledger phenonemon.
>yeap qhen they cash out
Yes because playing a videogame is not "an asset" getting paid to play a videogame is income. You fucking braindead moron. WoW gold has no USD value inside the game. No different than twitch income vs pointing a camera at yourself.
>welcome to the matrix
oh god another retard reminding me we are in a bubble.
>id crypto existed they would never have been able to get him.
Ironically, if this was remotely true (which its not) it would ACTUALLY be because he overstated crypto gains, fudging trades that made it say he made more than he did. as much as he made from liquor alone from crypto. And that is only possible because of the insane bullmarket atm. Even then theyd probably have sufficient evidence to audit and ask for proof of trades. They arent going to say "Oh no he reported $100,000 of income and obtained $100million in assets magically, but he hit the obfuscate button in his DASH wallet so its safe to assume he reported everything!"

>>6211056
Encrypt the fucking records up your mothers ass for all I give a shit, IF you get audited you will be wishing you had stayed on top of them

>>6211002
>You keep bringing this up, there is nothing complex about it, if you have no records the tax man will apply a worst case scenario taxing you on a cost basis of zero.

Taxman wont be able to do it either. You have to go through thousands of trades and track satoshi to USD values at the exact moments of every trade. The look at the next trade and calculate the cost and value of each of those trades. Man trades spanning over multiple coins over a short time spans on highly volatile assets that go up and down 1-5% every minute.

> Well actually, in reality what will happen is you will beg him to give you time to accumulate them and scurry around in a panic whimpering like a little bitch struggling to get it all together.

I will be amused at the prospect of them being able to do this an calculate things. I would be very impressed. Being audited and paying the fee would be worth the money. It would be cheaper than hiring someone to do it. Accountants are going to be on fucking suicide watch come April. HAHAHAHA

> Aside from the legal requirement it's merely good practice to keep records for yourself, you aren't some fucking hero by not doing this, only a grub.

I am going to pay my fair share. since I know neither me or the IRS have magical powers. Ill pay what I cash out on.

>>6211176
oops everything after blockfolio is for.
>>6210723

>>6211194
>pay someone one xmr to assassinate the tax agent going after me
gee that was hard

>>6204584
>retarded poorfags without an education literally think they're poor due government
Hint: a rich pop means more money you idiot loser

>>6205441
>>6210615
false

>>6204721
what a faggot

>>6211204
It never needed to be the exact moment, an average sat to usd value for the day will do, like I said earlier either you pick the value or he will. Thousands of trades over numerous exchanges took me about 20 hours

>>6211328
>implying im poor
>implying i didn't buy into your jew education ponzi scheme
>implying that hint made sense
>implying i didn't decipher your tard speak and realize you have no idea how the amount of money the government has would still be the same multiple/percent of the wealth the population has

>>6211176
>Ironically, if this was remotely true (which its not) it would ACTUALLY be because he overstated crypto gains, fudging trades that made it say he made more than he did.

ok lets assume he was sort of intelligent and a criminal. He would pay in cash for his privacy coins. You think Capone would have made a coinbase account?...

Since its extremely obvious I am literally arguing with IRS shills right now its pointless to continue this much more. For people like Capone, you would be beyond fucked in this day and age to pin anything on them.

Anyway - these guys I am arguing with are paid to say this stuff. Pay your taxes. But its a complete pipe dream the IRS will come after nearly anyone for only reporting on cash out. And if they do they paint themselves in a corner.

This whole thing is a complete disaster and these fucking threads are nightmares. But at least it gave me a chance to learn the actual situation.

Good night IRS people.

>>6211204
>You have to go through thousands of trades and track satoshi to USD values at the exact moments of every trade. The look at the next trade and calculate the cost and value of each of those trades. Man trades spanning over multiple coins over a short time spans on highly volatile assets that go up and down 1-5% every minute.
This is exactly what they're paid to do and why accountants exist. Similar issues already exist for various employments and traders. Tax law is convoluted and retarded and has been for a long time, but that's not a defense when the IRS comes knocking.

>>6210310
How would one even create an obvious discrepancy without either using a wallet that files them or cashing in/out a large quantity of fiat? Any kind of tax effort would require a tremendous amount of good faith on the part of collectors. >>6211002 seems to like implying that the IRS just knows how much money everyone has and filing is therefore in their best interest, but that simply is not the case even without taking into account the multitude of potential holes that exist when filing "honestly" due to the inherent volatility of these assets.

>>6211436
Yep, a certified poorfag who thinks he's middle class because he lives in mom's basement for free. You people are so obvious. How does it feel? To know deep down, you'll never make it? That only you are to blame?

>>6211548
>(YOU).gif

>>6211466

Crypto makes this impossible for humans to do it because the sheer complexity of technology and the seer number of transactions. Then you toss on a shit ton of gray areas and standards that have yet to be set and you have

One of the worst fucking things accountants will experience in the history of humanity to a point where its basically not possible for humans to even do it anymore.

>>6210588
If i got rich enough i would buy a blackmarket nuke and drop it on the most niggerish city

>>6211579
Were it not for the laws and government you so dearly hate, you'd be enslaved by now. Keep thinking you're different pajeet.

>>6211176
that's not true. you can sell accounts for USD (done millions of times by now, surely). you could absolutely sell in-game items for USD on eBay or wherever else. So what makes it different?

Lets just all tweet Donald. that nigga is on twitter all the time. If we tell him it will make america better and there are hundreds of people doing it he'll listen

>>6211594
We can share that dream together, Kamerad.

>>6211328
A rich population doesn't have any reason to work and generate more wealth.

>>6211646
He just cut taxes for the rich Jews, we gotta wait until he feels unliked again before he'll care

>>6211633
According to these fucking IRS shills we will have to track every mob we killed on the way to level the level cap so we can properly report how much we owe after selling the account.

HAHAHA!!!

>>6204545
kek

>>6211382
You can even skip lots of small trades desu. You can even work backwards and do the math that way. I don't know why he doesn't grasp the total is the same regardless, they can work backwards, and they just need a ballpark.
>>6211456
Are you fucking braindead? privacy coins are the last thing he wanted. He wanted receipts. You can't forge blockchain which is why I don't think it would work.
Waiiit. You think he committed tax evasion to skim a few bucks? no you moron he did it because "selling aclohol illegally and other criminal activity" is not something you can put as a source of income doing taxes. So he had to undereport and falsely claim his legitimate businesses made the money. But unless you keep the money under a matress when you accumulate assets the irs puts 1+1 together or audits your BS claims of front revenue. Keeping it in a privacy coin or under the matress is no different. Anyway after that lesson I have no more interest in this conversation. Im not even american and have outlined many problems in the policy, but because I pointed out your flawed understandings, I somehow work for the IRS and get paid to shitpost on 4chan. Is mental illness seek help.
>>6211521
accumulation of fiat or assets is how they get you. If you keep it all in a wallet for all eternity and never spend it you are safe, but I question your decisions in life. And there are some expenditures you can easily hide. if you buy weed and hookers in DASH you won't need to report that money. Just like cash tips and the same things.
>>6211633
? you are selling a good/service. You oay taxes income. I dont understand your point. If you are saying how come you don't get taxed on an individual action in the game. its because that in and of itself is not am asset nor a creator per say of wealth. Just playing videogames, time is really the factor if anything.

>>6206800
what if you make 10 trades per minute? how will you determine the fiat value of that alt? are you gonna use lagging coinmarketcap.com prices of btc to do that? lol

>>6211628
>if the bloated military, welfare system, horrid public schools, DEA, TSA, Fed didn't exist you'd be one unhappy goy! so just take it!! take it you filthy little goy!!!

>>6211669
>rich people don't work
Ah, the simpleton who thinks that at a magical number, rich people will refuse work again.
That's why the middle class are all welfare leeches, right? That buffett and gates just sit on the internet shitposting on /biz/?

>>6211521
No, merely the requirements and what you are expected / is in your interests to be able to produce should you be audited and how this plays out. 99.99% of anons have no hope in hell of competently evading / laundering so for most it's probably best to just try and file honestly, or at the very least properly weigh risk.

There is literally no excuse for not keeping accurate records, all these fucking investment geniuses yet unironically very few capable of keeping basic fucking books.

>>6211742
Yes, it's the Jews who are to blame that you're a lazy, greedy and unlikable leech with delusions of grandeur.

>>6211730
>no you moron he did it because "selling aclohol illegally and other criminal activity" is not something you can put as a source of income doing taxes. So he had to undereport and falsely claim his legitimate businesses made the money.

They would use privacy coins for everything.

>>6211738
lol you use an average price for the day

>>6211829
>i-it's not u-us w-we swear goyim!

>>6204277
>Why is no one raising this question or am I a complete fucking dolt for misunderstanding something here?


because no one plans on filing taxes for it in the first place.

problem?

>>6211738
Exactly! This is where the cracks in the tax law begin to show. There is no fucking way to pin down fair market value on something so volatile and nebulous as crypto. I guess we'll just have to estimate it in our favor.

>>6211845
then how are you gonna tax the trades that are made within 1 day, lol, shitcoins can drop by 50% in a few minutes

you IRS cucks are laughable

>>6211863
>it has to be them! I'm too superior to fail by myself!

>>6211586
They already dealt with that with day traders and computerized stock trading. The grey area is to your benefit, they don't care if your BTC=USD is off when recording your shitcoin exchanges. They will care if you pull ten Bitcoin out of nowhere and don't show how you obtained them.

>>6211889
no, the IRS is going to fuck you hardcore and make you pay for the highest price recorded for that day unless you can prove otherwise
>>6211898
>implying i've ever failed

>>6204903

>implying they wouldn't just force you to use the average of that day

>>6211889
It's not fucking cracks, you just pause being an autist and use a reasonable method to work it out, and yes of course you estimate it in your favor, this is the entire point of you doing it yourself, you save the tax man some time and you get some appreciation in return. Be sensible though because if you're a complete fucking wingnut about it and waste everyones time though he will tell you to get fucked.

>>6211829
>if you dislike the government and/or dislike paying taxes you're automatically a lazy, greedy, and unlikeable leech

my personal situation in life (which is fine) has nothing to do with my furor over the absolute failures of government. but keep thinking >>50% of kids not being competent at the core 4 subjects by the time they graduate HS in public schools is OK! keep thinking years of food stamps and ridiculous stipends for single mothers/degenerates is OK! the military blows more $$ in a millisecond than you will pay into the treasury through taxes in a lifetime. but hey, that's okay! i love that new water fountain at the little city park near by--it hasn't been tarnished with nigger graffiti in 30 minutes! i love gubbiment!! if you don't want to pay for this at gunpoint then BAD GOY

>>6204840
I think it's based off the assumption you bought it from an exchange so they'll have coinbase logs for example what they won't know is if you bought it from another person so in that case its maybe it's like cash kind of where you can tell them what amount you bought it at just like if you bought bullion with cash although this is completely off the books but once you put that coin from 2011 into an exchange it's technically booked?

>>6211892
I don't understand what you're asking... You're trading sats for shitcoins, you record all those, to get the USD basis you use an average sat - USD price for that day on all of them

>>6211929
But if they are using an estimation, and I'm using an estimation, because there is no legally defined "fair market value" at this time, doesn't that make it a grey area open to interpretation?

>>6211780
>middle class
>rich
Get a load of this retard. How many days has Notch worked since becoming a billionaire?

>>6211841
you can't eat privacy coins or sleep in them moron. You bought a house with privacy coins. Okay congrats. Howed you get the privacy coins? Capone didn't have problems hiding money, rich people can always do that easily. Its bringing it out and using it that's hard. Believe me Capone would happily pay all his taxes.

>>6211910
>They will care if you pull ten Bitcoin out of nowhere and don't show how you obtained them.

This is one of the neat tells that I we are dealing with IRS shills.

You do realize that the number of bitcoins I have stays the same when I HODL right? Why is it multiple response are people mentioned this "10 bitc" out of nowhere thing.

Its beyond plausible to find a btc wallet by the way too. You gonna toss people in jail for find old hard drives in the trash?

What if whales start throwing random coins at people just to fuck with shit? obtaining a BTC out of nowhere is kind of something we can easily explain. Didn't BTC come out of thin air in the first place?

How the fuck is obtaining crypto inherently a crime? LOL

>>6211966
There we have it. The soyboy who hates a strong national army and rather see his nation invaded. Fucking knew it. Kys you liberal piece of shit

>>6212003
It does, but any grey area will not be ruled in your favor because they want their money and have the power to punish you if you dont listen to them
think about how grey areas with the police work, they just say "fuck it we're the police, you're being punished anyway"

>>6212018
"Capone mined some coins in his spare time 3 years ago."

>>6211985
>Average daily price
Fuck no, that is rediculous for something that can fluctuate anywhere from 50% to 10+X in a day.

>>6212017
>one autist= everyone
Yet you conveniently ignored my candidates. Notch got a lucky hit. He was never gonna make it otherwise (just like us, we're waiting to get lucky too) and you know that. Meanwhile every millionaire from his work keeps working. Soros, bill gates, bognadoff, trump.. It's just in their nature. It's why they got rich to begin with. Only a loser mentality seeks money just to be lazy layabout.

>>6204277
Just don't pay. Simple as that. If you don't cash out your crypto into fiat (USD), then you haven't actually made any money, and therefore you have no taxable income to report.

>>6212038
>Free ButtCorns
I think something like $14K is the limit for untaxable gifts. Could be more though, I don't really recall!

>>6212003
yes 100%. within reason you are going to underreport. But it doesn't even matter really. You turned 1btc to 5 btc, whether you did it buy accumulating btc at low usd value and letting it appreciate. Or you let shitcoins appreciate and bought btc with them at high usd value, mathematically its the same. You won't get hung for being a penny short. under report within reason.
>>6212075
yes. Thats why I'm saying he would unironically over report his crypto gains. Problem is he is Capone. They aren't going to take his word. They want to see evidence, likely not just a textbook audit, but they would have a warrant. He can't fudge the explorer or even wallet numbers, mining probably wouldnt even do it, and is seperate entirely. If he claims trades like the discussion itt they might ask to see proof of trades. But yeah. It would be a bit easier to overeport income with crypto.

how can the coins even be considered yours when they're held on an exchange? they aren't in your wallet. the coins belong to the exchange the entire time until you withdraw them into your personal wallet. if you never withdraw the coins, then you never have them. there isn't even proof that they actually exist, your exchange account could just be a fictitious database entry in a fractional reserve scam. how the fuck can you get taxed for something that is so loosely connected to you? clicking "Buy" and "Sell" on an exchange's web GUI does not cause you to trade coins you own. it's more like a suggestion to an unrelated third party on how to handle their own coins. you don't own the coins. the exchange does.
why the fuck does an exchange have the magic power to pass the tax burden to you when THEY own the fucking coins? for fuck's sake, there isn't even clear proof the coins you buy even exist at all until you withdraw them. what's to stop you from creating a fake exchange website to buy and sell nonexistent coins to yourself with completely fabricated prices to maximize your tax loss writeoff?

>>6212060
It's not that bad, just don't take the piss and use a consistent method based on actual logic and it will be fine. There's room for discussion on these things, you're not going to get shitted on for trying to do the right thing.
>>6212105
See this is what I'm talking about, say fuck no to the tax man and he will find the least favorable daily prices for you. The only outcome is you paying more.

>>6212215
that's what I said about my bank account. Turns out I still have to pay taxes.

>>6212060
How can I "not listen to them" if this shit is barely defined though? You IRS folks need to meet us half way on this, otherwise we know that you are just a tool of the Federal Reserve being incorrectly used as a weapon against crypto.

>>6212165
False equivalence. Just because self-made millionaires in a fucked up economy that prevents growth work, doesn't mean that the average person would continue working if they could achieve retirement-level wealth in early adulthood.

>>6212276
most people who dont, end up depressed.

>"mined bitcoin back in 2012"
>research defunct exchanges
>claim you traded bitcoin for monero on one

>>6212276
If that's false equivalence then so is using notch (an legitimate autist) as the gold standard. Sounds like you're just looking for a valid reason to not work if you ever make it. But you won't. Not with that mentality.

>>6212207
>mining probably wouldnt even do it, and is seperate entirely

You do realize that its entirely possible that mining 3-4 years ago could have potentially net you infinite money forever. I cant even imagine someone investing 25k into BTC when it was worth less than a penny...

Its completely possible this could happen too. Uncover the hard drive then invest in privacy coins...

It would be fucking stupid.

>>6212251
>whataboutism

>>6212215
>what's to stop you from creating a fake exchange website to buy and sell nonexistent coins to yourself with completely fabricated prices to maximize your tax loss writeoff

this is why i say reputable exchange. if you do this own exchange type shit the tax man will immediately call it a scheme and ass fuck you, he has no interest in autistic gain, you will literally be sitting there quivering like a raped schoolgirl unable to mutter a rebuttle

>>6212323
what would this achieve? mathematically your taxes are the same.
>>6212356
I mean factoring inflation Capone would have needed a large power bill and LOOOOTS of GPUs kicking around. again dont understand the reasoning behind privacy coins. He is trying to do the opposite.

>>6212368
>if you do this own exchange type shit the tax man will immediately call it a scheme and ass fuck you, he has no interest in autistic gain, you will literally be sitting there quivering like a raped schoolgirl unable to mutter a rebuttle

We are in a situation where literally any story about randomly discovering a billion dollars is entirely plausible.

>>6212347
I only need a plausible argument, not a proven one, to undermine your unsubstantiated claims.

>>6212436
He could have did that shit with a CPU running for awhile. BTC was a lot easier to mine back then.

>>6212038
There are already rules for paying taxes and providing evidence for found property. If you decided to lie like this, you'd also be responsible for tax on the whole value of the Bitcoins rather than just profit. And it'd be piss easy to discover if you're lying if you've ever associated your name with exchanges. People with sketchy income are the first ones the IRS investigates.

>>6212495
he could have won it all horse racing or foind it under a bench! gonna need some receipts. He's Al fucking Capone, not just some dude randomly selected for a brief audit. They had warrants.

>>6212498
>If you decided to lie like this, you'd also be responsible for tax on the whole value of the Bitcoins rather than just profit.

Cool! 40% of a billion dollars.

Holy shit it happened again next year. WTF I am just amazing at this. I bought a where house of old computers and found another billion. Welp time to pay muh taxes again.

>>6212368
Each post you make seems to contain less substance and more keyboard warrioring. What you're describing is circumstantial evidence of a crime at best.

>>6212558
The IRS is a tax agency. They are getting max tax revenue from the BTC you magically find. More than any other explanation. They are happy, and if your goal is to avoid taxes you failed miserably and overpaid. Anything suspicious passed that would be FBI who probably know how to read the btc ledger if they care enough about you.
>>6212582
not him but it's crimnal and obvious. Why so you guys think the federalis are retarded?

>>6212548
What part of the IRS is kind of fucked because this situation is completely absurd and anyone can say anything they want for a plausible story are you still having trouble with exactly?

"Whoops I lost the password to my wallet! And then I got it back again using a brute force program 4 years later because that's how long it took to crack the encryption."

Well taxman looks like I will be paying my fair share now!

>>6212688
>They are happy, and if your goal is to avoid taxes you failed miserably and overpaid.

But now all of a sudden Capone isn't in jail and still rules the city with an iron fist. Isn't that funny how this all turned out?

>>6212695
that's great anon. But Im not the taxman Im the FBI with a warrant. I want to see that wallet and it's adresses. your power bills while you mined, proof of purchase or ownership of your cpu and gpus, transactions, cash out information and much more. Why do you think so many criminals got busted over this? cause they never thought to say "IT FELL FROM THE SKY" ironically finding cash on a park bench is harder to disprove than "I found/mined bitcoin"
>>6212736
Capone went to jail. Not facing backtaxes. Do you even know what the IRS is? spoiler they arent the police.

I'm going to enjoy watching tax revenue become implausible in the future with banking and fiat currency ceasing to exist

>>6212688
I mean he wouldn't be able to use any of that money in the US, but all the suspicion in the world doesn't do them any good if they can't find any assets he shouldn't have whatsoever.

>>6204277
>Make 10000 trades and cash out.
>Document every single transaction to pay <tax bracket>% on gains and get leniency on losses
>Spend weeks doing the math to figure out you'll be paying <tax bracket>% amount anyways.

Save yourself some time, cut a check for the whatever percent plus flat rate it is, print the pages out for the IRS to go through if they want, and mail it all in a bubble envelope.

>>6212819
The FBI were completely fucked by Capone. The FBI did everything in their power to take his ass down. The IRS were the only ones who were able to do it.

Also too,

> I want to see that wallet and it's adresses. your power bills while you mined, proof of purchase or ownership of your cpu and gpus, transactions, cash out information and much more.

easily forged and tracks easily covered.

> cause they never thought to say "IT FELL FROM THE SKY" ironically finding cash on a park bench is harder to disprove than "I found/mined bitcoin"

Its crypto currency, it literally can come from nothing. It is 100% plausible that any one of us might happen upon a massive sum of money at any point in time. Some dude in china sent to the wrong address one day. Whoops!

its undoubtedly possible. There are computer viruses that force people to pay in BTC to gain access their PC and the FBI cant figure out where the money is going lol!!

>>6212946
thats true of cash too really. but no fun. He could of just saves it all to retirement and taken it to some 3rd world shithole. But why?

If you make below 200k a year and don’t own rentals or have a small business your chance of getting audited is .4% you dickshits.

>>6213002
no. IRS likely helped, and back then law enforcement probably had full unadultered access to all their info warrant free. But they arent law enforcement you fucking retard.
>crypto comes from nothing.
If only they had some sort of explorer you could looknat transactions....
>some guy from China sent it to the wrong adress whoops!
Genius! Capone could have just mailed himself cash and said that! Why bother money laundering at all!?
>fbi can't figuire out where the money is going. Thats because they move it through a fucktonne of wallets then cash out some other shithole country where they dont report the income to anyone who would share the info. I dont think you understand crypto, or money laundering at all. Anyway Im going to bed.

>>6213159
>>6213002
should mention again. obfuscation as you described the fbi struggling with. Is the opposite of what he needed. He wanted receipts for money he already had. Not for it to dissappear. He puts it in crypto, cycles it around and they lose track. He cashes out. He still has no legitimate source for the real money. he had $200k he couldnt explain. It dissapeared. He comes out with $200k he cant explain.

>>6213159
>If only they had some sort of explorer you could looknat transactions....

this is desperation at this point. Some dude from anywhere in the world can fuck up a transaction at any time. You know this is true. Everyone knows this is true.

> Genius! Capone could have just mailed himself cash and said that! Why bother money laundering at all!?

In crypto you can almost literally make up any story you want and it is totally possible. This isn't fiat.

If Capone had crypto Capone would have never went to jail.