/biz/ - Business & Finance

Nobody cares about this infinite dilution glowie scam. Z cash is better and even it sucks

>>58726536
unironically, XMR using the exhaust system makes it infinitely better than Bitcoin as the hash rate required to keep the network operational doesn't require insane mining rigs, making it more decentralized and private.
>cash is better
Explain this please.
Imo, monero is the first successful POW project to be "complete" as the final block was mined and the exhaust system kicked in without a problem.

>>58726536
>infinite dilution glowie scam
You should really focus on your math classes at high school boy cause you really suck at it.

>>58726514
Half of what you said isn't true: price increasing is not bad but moonbois obsessing about price is bad. Moonbois are bad in general, we don't want speculators, we want users. Fuck off. Losing localmonero is not good but it's also not bad with Haveno around the corner. Losing KYC exchanges is good and gets rids of a lot of those moonbois. Been used in darknet markets is amazing, it's the best indication that it works you moron. CP is disgusting and vile, but Monero being viable for trading it is just more proof that it works. Liking the latter doesn't mean you like/support the former. Knives are good when they cut enough to easily kill someone. That doesn't mean murder is good, but a knife that can't murder is a shit knife. Trading drugs is a victimless crime and it's none of your business if people want to shove plants up their asses or smoke PVC cable coating.

>>58726620
>>58726627
Scaring off moonbois and losing liquidity and exchanges made Monero one of the least profitable coins to mine, making it much less secure than other alts.
And anything that becomes a popular medium of exchange comes with a monetary premium, it's value becomes greater than its utility, all the goods it's used to trade in. This premium is captured by speculators. If you want users, then speculators are a big part of that. You have to have both.
And being used in darknet markets isn't bad. But thats all you are left with because feds scared off all the normal users.
>haveno in two more weeks
Amazing how long it takes to slap a new UI on bisq. Not that it will have any liquidity.

>>58726694
>Scaring off moonbois
You don't want to depend on moonbois to secure anything. That's a really bad idea. Better be insecure all the time than have a false sense of security that goes away any time moonbois jump to the next moontrend.

>losing liquidity
So what? Moonbois and daytraders can't speculate on it, oh no what will we ever do.

>made Monero one of the least profitable coins to mine
What are you comparing it to? Other coins need specialized equipment, Monero doesn't. You need to count that cost in too.

>making it much less secure than other alts
And it's still not attacked, so... what gives? Also who cares? BTC succeeded even when it was extremely cheap to attack it, and still nobody really did. BCH is trivial to attack given that it shares the algo with BTC and the hardware to attack it is already out there, but nobody has attacked it.

>it's value becomes greater than its utility
Define value and utility cause this sounds like a meaningless sentence to me.

>This premium is captured by speculators
What... Captured? What does that even mean?

>If you want users, then speculators are a big part of that.
Bullshit straight out of your ass. You want users to increase the price, so that there is a point to speculate. You cannot get users because you got speculators, that's retarded.

>But thats all you are left with because feds scared off all the normal users.
Are you a retard? Multiple crypto shops on the clearnet STILL report higher XMR usage than LN and BTC.

>Amazing how long it takes to slap a new UI on bisq.
Shows how little you understand about the differences between the two projects.

>>58726514
Just use non-KYC Bitcoin, way easier than monero

>>58726782
what you call moonbois are just people speculating on the future value of something, same as anyone holding gold, savings, or anything they believe will retain value against an inflating dollar. These people having a high time preference is not ideal, but you need people who believe your currency will have future value which necessitates speculation.

>losing liquidity, so what?
Lower liquidity makes your currency more volatile which makes it less ideal for people to use it as a medium of exchange or as a savings vehicle. People can't trade large amounts without upsetting the whole economy

Specialized mining equipment just makes computing hashes per watt more efficient. Monero is barely cost positive. If you take the cost of a 7950X PC build into account, it'd take a decade to pay off your hardware mining Monero. Considerably worse than "specialized equipment"

And there were attacks on Monero a couple months ago, someone spamming transactions because it was dirt cheap to do. It is being attacked because it's not very secure.

>value and utility
utility as in the combined market cap of all the goods Monero is used to trade in. value as in the market cap of Monero. speculative premium as in how much the market cap of Monero exceeds that of the goods it is used to trade in.

And users and speculators are part of the same thing. If something is being used for something it has value, if it has value people will speculate on it. Even if the uses are sometimes for things you don't like, like being used for a savings account, that's still a use.

>>58726928
>what you call moonbois are just people speculating on the future value of something
A moonboi is a specific kind of speculator. One that cares not about having sound money. One that would buy war bonds if they knew it would guarantee profit. No morals, no ideology, just obsession with the moon.

I don't care about people investing in a currency that they think is good and will be useful in the future. That's great by itself.

>Lower liquidity makes your currency more volatile
Yet it's almost like a stablecoin for a long time now even through delistings. And I attribute that stability in part to the lack of liquidity in places that moonbois and daytraders frequent.

>People can't trade large amounts without upsetting the whole economy
That would be a nice problem to have. But not having it means we can focus on moving in and out only what we need, while we trade it around for items and not for fiat.

>Monero is barely cost positive.
That doesn't just work against legit miners, it also works against attackers, as it reduced the money they could make while mining too.

>If you take the cost of a 7950X PC build into account, it'd take a decade to pay off your hardware mining Monero
So don't buy a PC just to mine. Buy the PC you anyhow want, and mine on the side if electricity is cheap or at a small loss hoping the price will go up later down the line when you actually spend it (which is very likely IMO).

>And there were attacks on Monero a couple months ago, someone spamming transactions because it was dirt cheap to do.
Completely unrelated to the mining difficulty or profitability and fixable by changing the minimum transactions fees, which is already discussed by MRL. So no it's not getting attacked because it's not secure. You're starting to glow.

>utility as in the combined market cap of all the goods Monero is used to trade in.
I can literally buy ANYTHING with Monero, I have no clue what you are measuring by this.

>>58726536
cope. monero is low supply and similar inflation to btc

>>58726928
>And users and speculators are part of the same thing. If something is being used for something it has value, if it has value people will speculate on it. Even if the uses are sometimes for things you don't like, like being used for a savings account, that's still a use.
I'm not denying that. I said I don't give a fuck about losing speculators especially of the moonboi variety that frequents KYC exchanges and jumps on any wagon they think will get them to a lambo. I'd rather have true believers investing in Monero because they want a better future. The moonbois are toxic, always have been for all crypto communities. They are the ones that destroyed BTC and turned it into bankcoin/blockstreamcoin.

>>58726983
Doesn't even matter. Tail emission doesn't mean infinite supply. At some point the tail emission becomes equal to the average number of coins lost (which is proportional to the current supply) and the supply stabilizes.

Fixed supply crypto is actually deflationary.
Monero is the actual fixed supply.

And, in the end, they all behave as if they are deflationary in terms of purchasing power since the economy grows mostly by steady % per year.

>>58726694
i know it's hard for you to understand, but monero is a crypto that is USED for something. not just speculation, like literally everything else. when your crypto has a use, rampant speculation is actually a bad thing.

xmr works fine and miners continue to keep the network running
unless theres some hidden bug nobody is aware of it is a success even if the price per coin is $5

>>58727038
moonbois cannot understand this

>>58726971
>A moonboi is a specific kind of speculator
Okay, so you want low time preference long-term savers then. Which would come from ordinary people saving in Monero to avoid inflation, just like ordinary people who buy gold or silver or land. But that requires ease of access, liquidity, user friendliness, popularity outside of drug/cp markets

>it also works against attackers, as it reduced the money they could make while mining too
Attackers (feds) aren't deriving much value from legitimately mining monero but from harming the network. They could be mining at a loss and it would be still worth the expense. No so for legitimate miners.

>Buy the PC you anyhow want, and mine on the side
That's just using your hobbies to subsidize mining, but the costs and profits come out the same. Worse actually since if your miner isn't operating 24/7 then you'll take even more years to recoup hardware costs. The hardware will die before it pays for itself.

>hoping the price will go up later down the line when you actually spend it
That's just speculating on Monero with extra steps

>fixable by changing the minimum transactions fees
So rather than letting a robust fee-market decide things you need a centralized party (the devs) to step in and artificially control your economy

>you're starting to glow
"schizo = good and then anything that isn't schizo enough = psyop", see >>58726514

>I have no clue what you are measuring by this
this is basic economics

>Yet it's almost like a stablecoin for a long time now even through delistings
Stable against an inflating dollar isn't stable. And if delistings shrink the overall size of your economy, then that stability is really just lack of activity

>>58727011
You all conflate speculation with foaming-at-the-mouth meme coin retards. Sure that exists, but you can have healthy, sizeable speculation outside that, same as the gold market, which is mostly speculation (after jewelry).

>>58727003
>Doesn't even matter. Tail emission doesn't mean infinite supply. At some point the tail emission becomes equal to the average number of coins lost (which is proportional to the current supply) and the supply stabilizes.
good point

>>58727038
>>58727046
>Price per coin drops to $5
>daily miner revenue drops from $64k to $2077
>now even Haiti can afford to bribe miners, spam the network, completely destroy the chain

>>58727047
>ease of access, user friendliness
Yes
>liquidity
not really
>popularity outside of drug/cp markets
Yes, and it already has it as I said.

>No so for legitimate miners.
Long-term investing miners that mine using equipment they already had don't care about that. And we should be focused on having more of these miners, and less "pro" miners. That's the whole point of RandomX.

>(feds) aren't deriving much value from legitimately mining
No but a higher profitability WOULD make their attack cheaper since they do keep the emission. If they are throwing the emission away then they are just increasing their costs further, ok fine by me.

>you'll take even more years to recoup hardware costs.
You don't need to recoup mining costs. You use the PC to do stuff you'd normally do, you mine on the side. There's no extra hardware cost to recoup.

>That's just speculating on Monero with extra steps
That's investing in Monero's future. It's not moonboism. And where's the extra step? No KYC, nobody else is involved. This is the true base investment we need. Any other kind of investment is the one with "extra steps".

>So rather than letting a robust fee-market
BTC-style fee markets are a retarded idea. Go to BTC please and leave XMR alone. The only fee "market" that we need is the dynamic fees we already have. Maybe the need tuning if spam is actually a problem. So what? Hard-forking and choosing to follow the old or the new fork is not "controlling the economy". Spam doesn't even look like a serious issue for now anyhow and as the network grows it will become less and less of a problem.

>schizo = good
I'm not schizo for not falling for your FUD about XMR being insecure just because TXs are cheap enough to spam when you've demonstrated nothing about how this impacts security.

>this is basic economics
Sure, sure...

>Stable against an inflating dollar isn't stable
Oh you're a nitpicking retard.

>>58727047

>then that stability is really just lack of activity
And a liar. Activity is just fine as reported by all websites pushing stats.

>>58727123
3 years ago there were 80k miners, now there are 18k (https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero).). Despite hardware improvements hash rate has been dropping for 2.5 years. You're just trying to hand-wave away the hardware costs by saying you SHOULD use your normal computer to mine or people SHOULD be mining out of the goodness of their heart but the reality is there are less miners, a lower hash rate, lower miner profits, and the network being actively spammed.
A few years ago Monero had a ton of potential, listed on plenty of exchanges, lockdowns and people being frozen out of their bank accounts was the perfect marketing opportunity. Instead of taking advantage of it feds scared off everyone they could with opsec schizobabble, purity spiraling over muh circular economy, and ripping on anyone who wanted to talk about price. It gave them enough time to shut down exchanges and kill Monero's momentum at the one time it was really needed.
Now all you have left are tards who think "Monero works just as well at $5", congratulating themselves that they're in it for the tech not profit.

>Maybe the need tuning if spam is actually a problem. So what?
That it needs constant tuning and maintenance to not shit itself means it's fragile and centralized.

>choosing to follow the old or the new fork
Everyone will always choose the new fork because that's what the devs say. They have so much control over everything there's not even discussion of alternative forks, a Monero version of ETC or BCH.

>>58727220
>and the network being actively spammed.
You keep saying that as if it's related to the network being spammed.

>80k miners, now there are 18k
A bad thing, no denying that. But some people are scared or just don't want a currency that they can't trade on KYCuck exchanges. Fine, let them go to BTC, not much we can do about it and the currency will survive either way. Usage isn't down. Neither on DNMs nor on clearnet so we're doing fine it seems.

>purity spiraling over muh circular economy
That's not feds. That's users actually saying something that has been said about OG Bitcoin from the very beginning: When the price actually moons, you won't need to sell. This will be your currency. Was that feds too back then? Monero just keeps that flame alive, and if people don't like it and worry about cashing out over to fiat over KYC, fine let them go. We need a community that actually cares about sound money and privacy. We're choke full of moonbois everywhere else, no need for more in XMR.

>kill Monero's momentum
Usage is fine, and usability has improved. You keep focusing on a few indicators while people are still happily using it.

>constant tuning and maintenance to not shit itself
Who said "constant tuning"? This is the first spam attack that I'm aware off and the first real attack that tests the dynamic fee algorithm. We may need one, maybe two fine-tunings and we may be done. Again, fucking FUD, you glow.

>Everyone will always choose the new fork because that's what the devs say
Key-word: choose. That's not centralization. Contrary to BTC's cuckstream, nobody in XMR as far as I know is forcing changes down people's throats by soft-forking them in, in ways that you cannot avoid them. Like they did with segwit.

>They have so much control over everything
Glowing FUD. Monero Classic/Original/etc was/is a thing. And there are no big alternative forks because users actually trust MRL and the devs enough because they aren't doing anything really controversial.

>>58726514
Yawn.

>>58726694
>If you want users, then speculators are a big part of that.
Speculators and all their fucking swing trading results in constant volatility, which is bad for business.

So fuck speculators, fuck moonfags and fuck you. Go "invest" in DogWithYarmulka or whatever the fuck and leave Monero-chan alone.

>>58726514
fluffypony is a glowie themselves. don't know if he always was but 100% switched now. he promoted the legitimacy of the p2p encryption of whatsapp and singal etc. kekd and checked

>>58726620
>unironically, XMR using the exhaust system makes it infinitely better than Bitcoin as the hash rate required to keep the network operational doesn't require insane mining rigs, making it more decentralized and private.
The fact that BTC uses ASICs makes it more secure.
>hashrate is more reliable; miners are locked into mining BTC, can't hop to other coins
>an attacker has to obtain specialized hardware, can't rent cloud servers and/or direct their botnet at it
>little/no risk of a new coin coming along that's and stealing hashrate from the old coin by being more profitable
ASICs are underrated. Maybe this insistence on being CPU-only is part of the glowie psyop to keep privacy coins from reaching their full value

>>58727569
Depends if you think botnets are a significant chunk of the Monero hash rate. If they are (they are) then the owners have zero equipment or electricity costs and can afford to mine at max capacity and dump at any price, artificially suppressing the price and undercutting honest miners. Wouldn't be surprised if the feds were involved since they already have backdoors to every modern computer.

>>58726694
Haveno is already live with +100 offers after 1 month. Bisq has in total, over bisq1 & 2, 700 offers after a decade. retard.

It's in fact so successful, right now it's already being attacked by a futile ddos attempt on the seednodes.