/biz/ - Business & Finance

Eth/btc hitting new lows, what happens when the SEC denies the ETF, declares it a security? Pursues legal action against all these scam artists using unregistered security?

It hasn't hit it's high against bitcoin since 2017, that's nearly a decade ago. Why haven't you realized yet? What are you waiting to see?

link/btc lol

Close, but you missed it still.

You're right about Altcoins, people are realizing they're all a meme, pointless, retarded, just a way to get higher % return on every dollar invested,

But memecoins are different, memecoins are altcoins, but without all the LARPing and bullshitting, it's just all open and honest now.

Bitcoin is all that matters at the end of the day, but most people are priced out of ever owning any decent amount of Bitcoin, and thus memecoins are the new meta for most people.

Bitcoin is now for those who have already made it and just want to secure that made it wealth in the long-term. Memecoins are for those who want to build up a made it stack (USD value wise) in order to put hat made it stack of USD into Bitcoin so they can finally relax

The big money for this is mostly done on ETH, so ETH will retain relevance purely for this purpose.

Look at the most successful alt against BTC, still failed to break through it's highs despite even retail getting in on it. Has fallen through the support band already. You don't think the SEC is going to pursue action against them as well?

>>58481486
No new liquidity is going into them, it's literally just people getting out of alts and anyone who succeeds rolls it back into btc

Also it is looking more and more likely the SEC will pursue legal action against ETH. That'd kill memecoins as well.
Anyone who was going to make big money off memecoins already did and rotated back into btc, anyone holding any alts or memes is going to be regretting it.

This is a strong indicator for TOAD

>>58481480
Maxis in 2024: I love the government
What shame
Also eth rejection is more then priced in now
>>58481472
The trend is clear, and Bitcoin is a good hold but this is a local top

>>58481472
if you weren't scared you wouldn't need to make this thread LOL ticktock bitcoiner

>>58481610
Scam artists ruining the name of crypto deserve to be in prison.
No one involved in alts is not a scam artist and it all degrades the idea of bitcoin for the masses/mass adoption. I'd love to see Vitalik and Sergey in prison.

>>58481472
nice post OP, i totally agree with you

>>58481486
nice intervention too, I mostly agree too

>>58481610
>Maxis in 2024: I love the government
ultimately every one will come to the same conclusion about alts value toward bitcoin wether the government act about it or not

>>58481472
I'm sure people won't just rotate out of BTC when it tops out and move into alts to make more money. The principled participants of this upstanding market know where real value lies, and will exclusively commit to Bitcoin maximalism.

>>58481864
Yeah I'm aware when the money printers open up people are expecting another alt season. I think the idea things will repeat because it's happened twice before it has to be a law is kind of crazy.

I think memecoin season is people fleeing alts, was my point. Those people waiting for alt season gave up, and moved over to meme coins after seeing them destroy their alts in performance, and then are rotating those profits into btc.

They key difference i just w/ alts there was SOME guess of "long term value" or something before. I think that's totally gone now for most people. Any alts being held are just to dump when they go up a bit, and rotate into btc or memecoins. Anyone still dcaing alt coins is mentally ill.

Memecoins are going to totally replace vc/altcoins (and they basically have already), "alt season" will just be a more extreme version of meme coins and it'll rugpull like no alt season ever has before as everyone flees at the end.

By the time the cycle is over btc.d excluding alts I expect to be atleast 80-90%.

Everyone realizes the only point of alts is pumping and dumping, memecoins are better for that. BTC is the only thing that acutally matters.

>>58481737
Bitcoin cannot be adopted as a store of value for the world, because it's limited to 200 million transactions per year, it would take 20 years for half the world to make a transaction onboarding themselves to the btc network, and that's assuming ZERO transaction volume is spent on anything else. Lightning does not fix this. Bitcoin won't be seen as a good store of value anymore when people realize that it's literally impossible for the world to use, not just as a currency but even for a slow-moving store of value narrative as maxis have been forced to adopt over the years

>>58481907
excluding stables*

>>58481921
self custody is only for highly competent/technical people. BTC will be custodial for 99% of people, and that's fine. Onchain will be for settlement and whales.

The primary issue's with our economic system is about issue's on the base layer being fake, so long as we have a reliable base layer anyone can hypothetically self custody. Countries, large institutions, and the wealth will do that. Anyone else (people who don't have btc already) would just end up getting scammed/lose their keys anyway.

>>58481472
>Then they take their profits and roll in back into BTC.
Yes, the people who sold their alts because they weren't satisfied with small returns are accumulating the only crypto that can only make small returns.

>>58481921
absolutely this
the reason altcoins emerged in the first place were the scalability problems with BTC and those problems have NOT been solved (not by LN either).

So yeah, altcoins lost their way with all the meme bs about muh defi and Depin and whatever, governance tokens etc. At best there's some over-leveraged loans and poorly maintained pegs to other assets.

But solving scalability remains a big value proposition. Many have claimed, but have failed at the cost of decentralization and security.

But guess what. Kaspa has succeeded. Time to wake up if you haven't already boyos.

>>58481940
>it's fine for the network to be centralized
Maxis are so desperate, they're willing to toss out everything that originally made bitcoin good just so they can pump their bags and gain more fiat later.
It's 2024, people are growing more aware of crypto, more people are embracing self-custody and it's becoming less of a scary thing to people. That's good. That's what crypto was made for. And you want to put a plug on that process because your network isn't technologically capable enough to handle it.
The BTC maxi narrative is a ticking time bomb. You can't hold back the evolution of technology forever. Just look at the people who are trying to stop AI from proliferating.

>>58481907
If BTC goes up, so will everything that isn't completely dead. It's unavoidable. You shouldn't dislike this either, smart maxis know that alt profits largely wind up in BTC. I disagree on memecoins, serious (there are a few) alt despair is pretty high right now, but meme coins are nothing new. BTC.d was nearly 80% in 2021. Bitcoin will squeeze everything else, then that money pumps alts on downwards.

>>58481967
the problem with self-custody and full-blown adoption is that anyone could just break into your house and steal your entire life savings if you weren't VERY savvy with how you hid your keys

Even without full custody BTC still has transparency, which is still a big improvement over tradfi

>>58481940
When you buy coins on an exchange and leave them there, you are not involving the base layer in your transaction at all. You're making a paper trade which has none of the security of the base layer. You have no way of verifying that your coins even exist until they've been withdrawn to you. That's even worse than using Lightning for your transactions.

>>58481979
So now maxis are arguing against the very idea of what Satoshi built, which is a peer to peer money system where people have self-custody of their funds and make transactions without the need of a third party. Now you guys are saying fuck that, it's better for exchanges to own your coins because people are too stupid to use it how it's supposed to be used. You maxis are shameless. You're only saying this stuff because you have no choice but to embrace these narratives due to BTC's tech. If BTC was faster then you'd be talking about how it's a good thing because it allows the network to remain more decentralized. It's a narrative of pure convenience.

>>58482011
I'm not a maxi if you look a bit you can see Im advocating kaspa
just pointing out that this is a big reason people don't like self-custody, and I'm not hearing any real counter-arguments except whining about muh satoshi

self-custody opens you up to:
-robbery
-losing keys
-dying unexpectedly without inheritance to loved ones (or trusting some lawyer with your keys)

These things are big barriers for normies.

>>58481967
This is like a caricature of autistic technical shutin who never interacts with normal people. I'd suggest working tech support for a week, maybe interact with some normal people once in a while. Half the population in the US's iq is sub 100. If you include the whole world it's even lower.
Self-custody in a widespread scale is insane. You can't have a normal grandma or just 95 IQ normie get scammed because he has everything in a hot wallet that has no insurance. It's just not ever going to happen.

I don't care what Satoshi wanted or what "Crypto was made for", crypto is a technology that exists beyond what anyone's desires for it are.

Transferring the base of world money into something that cannot be controlled top down and isn't inflationary is sufficient to be one of the greatest steps forward humanity can make. It doesn't need to be more then that. I wouldn't be surprised or even care if normies still use fiat so long as everyone smart is using btc (institutions,states,the rich), poor people will always be retarded and self destructive.

>>58481984
I'm aware. The difference now is when a bank gets rushed when people withdraw (or settle with another bank which is historically what caused most banks to fail) the federal reserve prints money to make up for their lack of reserves.
What I expect to happen is a bunch of custodians, many of which "play games" and end up failing due to interbank settlement. No one can save them though, no one can print more bitcoin.

If all bitcoin does is that it's one of the greatest inventions in history. Currency debasement/inflation is one of the most constant evil things in all of human history.

>>58482011
Satoshi invented something good, that doesn't mean he was a genius in terms of world geopolitics/economy/moral philosophy. The guy who invented the telegram had no conception of the impact it would have.

Wide spread self-custody is totally ridiculous to anyone who isn't an autistic shutin

>>58482011 is right. You only embrace these narratives out of convenience. You know it's good for people to have the option of self-custody. The issue is that it becomes harder and harder to do so on BTC over time, even for savvy people who want and are capable of holding coins in self-custody. Instead of acknowledging how BTC fails here, you go on a tangent about how self-custody over your own assets - which is one of the most powerful things that cryptocurrency enables - actually isn't even important and should be avoided by most people.
Maxis only moved to the "BTC as a store of value" narrative in 2017 when it became clear that it can't support enough volume to ever be used as a currency.
But soon, it will be clear that it can't really be used as a store of value either. Becsuse transferring that value to others will become prohibitively difficult and expensive. It leaves room for different tech for people who actually want to benefit from the good aspects of crypto

>>58482024
Self-cutody keep you from bein a victim whn exchanges like mtgox, FTX, etc. either go bust or have their funds stolen. They have self-custody hardware wallets that make it extremely easy to do this is a convenient and failsafe way (i.e. Ledger and Tangem). It's not hard. Quit spreading misinformation like this.

>>58482102
they really are this autistic and delusional lmao
have you ever interacted with normal people? Have you ever worked in an office and seen how normal people use computers? Talked to them when something was going wrong? Seen them fall for obvious indian tech support scams?

>>58482112
Normal people aren't as dumb as you give them credit for. Even my boomer dad has a self-custody bitcoin wallet. Thre are tons of normies who use crypto, it's not a sekrit club anymore. The fact that you think people are too dumb to download an app on their phone is more of an indication that you don't interact with normies much. Nicehash desktop is one of the most widely downloaded pieces of software of all time.
You know it's not really that hard. You just act like it is, because you need other to be true in order for your whole narrative to be true.

>>58482102
huh? What part of what I said was misinformation? You didn't address a single fucking thing of what I said and just highlighted your own pro points (which I agree with btw).

But even with a Ledger or Tangem, you still have keys, and that still opens you up to:
-robbery
-losing keys
-dying unexpectedly without inheritance to loved ones (or trusting some lawyer with your keys)

Address these points motherfucker or I will accept that you're just a delusional nobody

>>58481940
>>58482028
thanks for your replies and this high quality thread anon, you explained better what was in my mind

>>58482011
you still can use the base layer whenever you want
it's just not the best for everyone use
same reason most people don't make wire transfers for each spend but use other layers -> it's cheaper and more conveniant + you have inssurance
I'm aware of Bitcoin limitations but I don't think it has failed because of this

>>58482083
>Maxis only moved to the "BTC as a store of value" narrative in 2017 when it became clear that it can't support enough volume to ever be used as a currency
and should I remind you what was the other side proposition? -> giving total power to miners and bigger blocks. while i'm fine with bigger blocks i disagree with the other thing
>Becsuse transferring that value to others will become prohibitively difficult and expensive
probably one day but anyway, people will use other tokens or layers to transact value and value will still be in bitcoin, because bitcoin is different (https://www.onceinaspecies.com/p/the-crypto-catch-22-why-bitcoin-only))

>>58482112
This might come as a shock to you, but there are a lot of normal people who are also intelligent. Half the population has an IQ above 100, which is more than what's needed to use cryptocurrency. The people you're taking about are in the 80 iq range, which is actually less common than normal intelligence. The people you interact with at work clearly aren't a perfect cross section of society.

>>58482158
it doesn't matter how smart you are.
even smart people are at risk of >>58482136

When the gold standard was a thing even banks got robbed and they were secured by the best and brightest. Normies don't want the RISK, it's not that they're too stupid.

>>58482151
We have ghostDAG now, which allows proof of work to actually scale with ZERO penalty to security or decentralization. The tech didn't exist back then, but it does now, and technology will continue to march forward with or without you.

>>58482127
>self custodying is just downloading an app on your phone
Yeah let me know what a normie understands a private key that allows you to create a new UTXO which spends a previous one. That they don't actually have a value in a bank account but a collection of UTXO's that their private key allows them to spend in a new utxo.
If they dont understand what a private key is, they are going to share it, or lose it. They'll call up the wallet company saying they got a new phone and can't see their crypto. Or their backup their key to gmail, have that email get linked (because they don't have 2fa) and lose all their money.

That's ignoring scams. Or if they even back it up at all.

In order to self custody well you literally just have to have a basic understand of cryptography and the mechanics of how cryptocurrencies work.

That is literally just not ever going to be widespread. Frankly it's not even an intelligence thing, it's just a personality thing for the most part. In order to even CARE about something like this you have to be a fairly abstract thinker, if you are a more grounded sensual person (trades person, musician, craftsman, service industry, etc) this is simply not the way of thinking you are used to.
And guess what, it's fine to be a human being that doesn't care about computers. It's fine to be sub 100 iq, it's fine to not give a fuck about how the financial industry works. It's fine to just care about people and focus on them and have your mind glaze over with technical/abstract/financial stuff. Those are good people and they aren't going away, but you cannot expect them to self custody.

>>58482158
So you're just saying blacks can't use it? Lol

>>58482177
Normies don't need to understand the implementation details of the software to use it. And yes, normies are capable of understanding that stuff, especially ones who grew up using technology and have an IQ over 100, like I said. If gen alpha can figure out how to make scripts and character mods on Roblox then they can figure out how to send some crypto when they're adults.

>>58482176
i hear you, but it's still not bitcoin and thus, will never be the same
people might use it for conveniance but it will never be as valuable as bitcoin because you can't repeat the invention of digital scarcity
read this https://www.onceinaspecies.com/p/the-crypto-catch-22-why-bitcoin-only

also you said earlier:
>If BTC was faster then you'd be talking about how it's a good thing because it allows the network to remain more decentralized
what do you mean here precisely ?

>>58482177
>In order to self custody well you literally just have to have a basic understand of cryptography and the mechanics of how cryptocurrencies work
this. and we all know how it works because we all spent countless hours studying crypto but do not forget that the learning curb for this is a bit long
not everyone have the willpower or envy to do this
many just prefer to open an app and buy and close it without thinking about self custody
like you don't bother hiding all your cash at home and just use a bank (because of risks and conveniance)

satoshi gave us the base layer, now it's up to anyone to decide on how to use it if they even want to use it

>>58482177
99.9% of people who self custody their coins have no understanding of cryptography at all, but they can still easily grasp the concepts of "if I own the wallet, I own the coins".

>>58482196
You literally do need to understand implementation to self custody well. Self-custodying well is all about being careful about and protecting your private key/keys. That's ALL self custody actually means. Self custody well isn't having an app on your phone, or a hot wallet that generates a key for you that you keep on your phone. You need to have an explicit understand of what a wallet actually is, and what's involved to keep it safe or you will not be capable of managing it well. Like I said if you don't you'll fucking send yourself an email with your private key to "back it up", send it to people who knows. Most likely you'll just lose it though. Literally all of someone's money just disappearing not because "of an evil company" like ftx but because they did a factory reset on their phone without thinking about it. A normie can understanding ftx losing their money, seeing them freak out over just accidently not saving their private key safely is a whole other world.

>>58482215
I have a feeling they won't have custody for very long, or at least their kids won't maintain the custody.

>>58482226
No you don't. You just need to understand that it works and how to use it. You do NOT need to know how it's implemented, whatsoever. Saying that it's a requirement to do it 'well' is a meaningless and vague statement. The fact is that solutions already exist for normies who want self-custody but have a hard time wrapping their minds around the technology stuff. Just get a tangem wallet and store it on there. Ezpz.

>>58482260
Can vouch that Tangem works well. I keep one of my cards in a safe deposit box as a backup in case I die or my house burns down or something.

>>58482260
while I agree with you here I the disagree with your previous statement:
>But soon, it will be clear that it can't really be used as a store of value either. Becsuse transferring that value to others will become prohibitively difficult and expensive.

people will safe custody because they are afraid of losing their money to cex but I don't see how it will be impraticable for them to transfer their satoshi when needed
it's not like the average bitcoiners does daily or even monthly tx nowadays. there are other layers and crypto for that (yeah i know that wasn't the goal at first but anyway)
most people who self custody just transact to add more btc to their stash or to send to a cex so I think we still have room. and wanyway the fees market is part of bitcoin
and even if i'm not a fan LN still has a huge room for adoption and improvments so not everyone will use the base layer
all the people i know AFK who are in crypto (since 2020 tho) none of them ever made a tx on the base layer (i mean more than a tx from a cex to their wallet)

>>58481486
>>58481907

this is the picotop for memecoins. shit like this reads like a hedgefund who wants to buy alts cheaper + have more time to accumulate. Not selling my LINK. Pants on head retarded thesis. memecoins still great for gambling though

>>58482362
>shit like this reads like a hedgefund who wants to buy alts cheaper + have more time to accumulate
hedgefunds aren't stupid and buy bitcoin only