/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>58319902
>Capitalism will inevitably destroy itself.
Two more weeks, amirite? How's the USSR doing by the way?

>Two arguments.
There's the same large flaw in both of those arguments, I'm actually interested to see if you're able or willing to spot it yourself.

>>58319965
>There's the same large flaw in both of those arguments, I'm actually interested to see if you're able or willing to spot it yourself.
I'm not going to do your work for you.
>>58319965
>Two more weeks, amirite? How's the USSR doing by the way?
It wasn't socialism. It was state capitalism because prices still existed. In a socialist system you would have the use value (based on objective scientific measurements) replace the exchange value (market value).

>>58320028
>use value (based on objective scientific measurements)
lol, very trusting of The Science.

It's clear at this point that late stage capitalism is a huge failure. Socialist market economy is the way to go.

>>58320053
No, it's actually pretty simple. Use value for a consumable commodity is something like the amount of energy in an apple. That is what I meant by a scientific measurement.

>>58320067
The tendency for the rate of profit still does apply to a socialist market economy though.
One of the more interesting proposals of a socialist economy would be labor vouchers. In exchange for your labor time (SNLT) you would get a labor voucher, which you could exchange for whatever thing you'd want. But for, say, an apartment, you would need to work exactly the amount in your job as it 'costs' to make an apartment.

>>58320070
>Oh wagie! Sure, I mean comrade, right.
>We're moving you into the ghetto (don't worry, The Science™ says it's better because of extra square footage)
>And we're replacing all your foot with a blend of bugs, söy and SSRIs.
>Better not complain, The Science™ says it scores very high on the Wagie Slop Index!

>>58320105
Which WEF, which globalist as they are called now, which one of them is a Marxist economically? No Marxist would ever call for a 'stakeholder capitalism'. And they certainly do not call for an end to capitalism.
They want to try and reform capitalism to make it never fall apart.

>>58319902
TLDR

bait.

>>58320132
You're missing my point. How do you "scientifically" price food for example, without creating a Wagie Slop Index which will be inevitably subverted?
How do you
>Take into account individual needs
>Take into account individual preferences
>Determine how much of food X should be produced?
Because market pricing achieves all of that.

>>58320086
>One of the more interesting proposals of a socialist economy would be labor vouchers
So money - but let's not call it money because that's capitalist, racist, sexist, and fascist. Right?

>>58319902

Marxism was debunked more than once century ago. Now it's just a religion, just like christianism, islam or judaism.

>>58320162
It's money except with no motivation to do useful work, only to do as easy "work" as possible kek.

>>58320179
Kek, these redditors have yet to walk into a DMV to see the marvelous efficiency of the government.

communism is just rage against entropy

>>58320158
>Take into account individual needs
Individual needs can be calculated. We know how much people /need/ to eat in order to survive and grow. It's probable that this knowledge will only get better.
>Take into account individual preferences
I would say that we have to flip this argument on its head. Individual preferences do not actually arise from the individual, but the general superstructure.
Why do people prefer 'real' diamond rings compared to synthetic diamond rings? Materially, they are essentially the same and look the same. But through film, culture people are essentially influenced to have 'individual preferences'.
In a socialist society, this would simply not exist. People would not want things they do not need.
I think you're referencing Hayek's arguments here. In the end, Marx didn't promise that people would get what they want. But they would get what they need. It's far more useful to look at the core principles of Marxist economics (like the previous arguments I mentioned in the OP).
>Determine how much of food X should be produced?
We can calculate how many calories people need to survive and be healthy. This has never been implemented in a planned economy before, but today we have the capabilities to observe productivity by each worker, factory and such in an entire economy. Soviet planners did not have this ability.
>>58320162
No, money specifically is used for exchange value. But labor vouchers would be closer to what buying stock is today. As capital today is dead labor, a labor voucher would essentially just be a representative of labor.

>>58320169
>Now it's just a religion
What most people don't realize is that's kind of what Marx was going for. This shouldn't be surprising considering Marx was the son of a famous rabbi.
This explains it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6rk1mYiOAw

>>58320254
>whiteness is a form of capital
I can tell this is just a chud who is going to rant about muh woke Marxism with zero understanding of the core ideas of Marxism (socially necessary labor time, tendency of the rate of profit to fall, class dialectics)

Capitalism should have been destroyed by the subprime mortgage crisis. If all the investment banks would have been allowed to fail, and not just Lehman Brothers, we’d still be trying to climb out of the wreckage of that mess.

>>58320241
>"labour voucher" = "representative of labor"
>spend the next 50 hours digging a hole for absolutely no reason or purpose
>collect comrade gibs without no one being benefited by all this whole
>???
>economy grows 1000%

Also,
>Marx didn't promise that people would get what they want. But they would get what they need
And you *really* can't see how much this is dystopian?

>>58319902
2. Has been debunked for years. LMFAO

>>58319902
nigger

>>58320277
You don't understand what the labor theory of value in Marxism is. It's difficult to explain it, but it's actually called socially necessary labor time.
For a given commodity, its market value is not the amount of labor an individual has put in, but the average macroeconomic labor time. That is the value. I'm sorry if I haven't explained it adequately enough.
In truth, the hole would have zero value. It would have almost no use value, it is not socially necessary (therefore it would never even be dug by a rational actor)
>And you *really* can't see how much this is dystopian?
Is it not dystopian today to be, for the lack of a better word, brainwashed into consuming one good or another good?
The only way you can ever want real diamonds and not synthetic diamonds is simply because mass culture (owned/influenced by the capitalists) pushes you into wanting them. It's essentially just conformism. Some are more susceptible to it, some are less. But it exists as a measurable effect.

>>58319902
Just say you’re poor.

marxists are invariably losers from what ive seen so i assume anything they espouse is wrong in principle

>>58319902
>Capitalism will inevitably destroy itself.
> Two more weeks

>>58320786
I can fix her.

>>58319902
We have lived in a communist Marxist society feigning capitalism since 1914.
You’re a moron and also manipulative.
Your Marxist system is collapsing (fiat + central banking)
>verification not required

>>58319902
Marx was 100% right literally nobody can argue against the Labor Theory of Value. The only people that claim he is stupid are the people who have never read his work. Everything in Capital is 100% true.

Would love to see a single person in this thread try and argue against the labor theory of value. Only reason yall hate marxism is you know all of the wealth you have gained through bullshit is not deserved and really comes from someone elses labor. This is a very hard thing for alot of you to accept.

>>58321865
>>58321905
...you do realize that albeit this is called "Business & Finance", almost no one here actually owns any means of production, right? Most of us just speculate on the leftovers dropped from banks, funds, and normies FOMOing every halvening. Having more money than the average person does not automatically make one a bourgeois.

Even from a Marxist perspective, you're still a failure.

>>58320318
>answering a question with another question
yep

>>58319902
Commie filth, rest in piss with the rest of the faggots back on reddit

>>58319902
Any day now.

>>58321917
Actual production doesn't play much of a role in the US economy anymore. Most of our buisness is in service and technology. It's an economy an old school marxist coulden't even predict would exist.

Everyone is avoiding the fact that all these economic and political systems are Jewish funded and created

>>58319902
Nice wall of text you fucking faggot. I know your first semester of college is exciting and all but they don't really teach you anything there. I'll be making money and dabbing on commies every second of every day. Stay devastated comrade.

>>58321905
It's subjective. I could say the value of your labor is whatever someone is willing to pay you for it. In reality, that's exactly what you're going to get for it. You could say your labor is worth $10b an hour. In fact, let's say it is. I think your labor is worth 10b an hour, and it's a shame no one will pay you for what your labor is REALLY worth. Maybe someday.

>>58322000
Yes, one has to be profoundly retarded to believe in everything some old German guy wrote 170 years ago. Yet this thread exists.

>>58322011
Not all people assume jewish=bad. Most of you nazi cunts love jewish mythology at least.

>>58322043
Jews are bad though. 109 countries can't all be wrong.

>>58319902
>Capitalism will destroy itself
Consider the following
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

>>58322061
Jews are fine. /pol/ is bad. That shit is poison for your soul bro

>>58320241
This mother fucker wants a government overlord to rule over them and control every aspect of their life. From where they live, what job they have to even how much food they need to "survive". Kys commie nobody is buying your bullshit. The only people that want this are lazy fucks who could never amount to anything so they need the government to subsidize their life. Get a job, faggot.

>>58322085
did you ask the palestinians about that?

>>58322096
Lots of jews are pro palestein anon. The young progressive ones specifically.

>>58322085
>W0MAUN2c

I don't listen to women.

>>58320318
>they hated him (also couldn't even begin to refute him) because he told the truth

>>58322109
Your choice, but I can tell you after years of going on /pol/ everyday, it only ever made me miserable, angry, and bigoted. I'm much happier now that I don't use it. Just saying.

>>58322108
You probably still think Hitler was evil and just for no reason at all...

>>58322108
the ones that dont matter

>>58322130
He's also wrong. Nobody needs diamonds. They're a status symbol, not a necessity. People want real diamonds because most people can't have them. This has been a thing since the dawn of humanity. It's not capitalist influence, it's just the human condition.

Do you want to know why liberalism defeated communism? Because liberalism necessitates we be human, and communism demands we fight our humanity.

>>58319902
By Marx's own definition the proletarian doesn't exist because you'll always be the owner of your body and time at least, and your own expertise in a craft can be considered invested capital. So you'll always have at least that means of production at your disposal.
There is no "nothing to lose besides your own chains" people besides the criminals Marxists have tried to use in their favor ever since the Commune of Paris; and when those criminals reach power you have manslaughter by the millions like what happened in Vietnam and China.

>>58321905
LToV only models the supply side of supply and demand. It's not wrong, but incomplete.

>>58322139
I think Hitler was evil, yes.

>>58322147
To you.

>>58322165
no to you

>>58319902
1. deflationary spiral
solved in the 1930s with Discretionary spending
2. This assumes that everyone is an economic machine at all times and ignores the power of branding and marketing. Branding is the reason why Reece's Puffs cost $5.99 while Great Value Peanut Butter Chocolate Spheres cost $2.99.

>>58322170
I do not think or care about jews besides Ben Shapiros sister. That's your shtick.

>>58322196
if you know nothing, then why do you open your mouth?

>>58321865
>Marx was 100% right literally nobody can argue against the Labor Theory of Value. The only people that claim he is stupid are the people who have never read his work. Everything in Capital is 100% true.
The bible is 100% correct literally nobody can argue against Genesis. The only people that claim it is made up are people who have never read it. Everything in the Bible is 100% true.

>>58319902
That’s why they devalue the currency and anchor that currency to assets that can only be purchased with devalued currency. Bidenomics, chud!

>>58322200
I used to browse /Pol/ all the time. I was there during /GME/ when they linked maxwell to terramar. For pizzagate pt.2. The buffallo shooting. DoD leaks about Wuhan and the eco health alliance.

The nazi shit is all stupid. Let it go before it swallows your life anon. God bless.

>>58322200
He wants to suck your dick.

>>58319902 | >>58319965 | >>58320028
>>58320050 | >>58320053 | >>58320067
>>58320070 | >>58320086 | >>58320105
>>58320132 | >>58320150 | >>58320158
>>58320162 | >>58320169 | >>58320179
>>58320193 | >>58320206 | >>58320241
>>58320254 | >>58320273 | >>58320276
>>58320277 | >>58320299 | >>58320314
>>58320318 | >>58320326 | >>58320388
>>58320786 | >>58320939 | >>58321854
>>58321865 | >>58321905 | >>58321917
>>58321923 | >>58321925 | >>58321985
>>58322000 | >>58322011 | >>58322021
>>58322026 | >>58322037 | >>58322043
>>58322061 | >>58322066 | >>58322085
>>58322086 | >>58322096 | >>58322108
>>58322109 | >>58322130 | >>58322133
>>58322139 | >>58322147 | >>58322155
>>58322159 | >>58322160 | >>58322165
>>58322170 | >>58322178 | >>58322196
>>58322200 | >>58322211 | >>58322219
>>58322225 | >>58322230
> About Capitalism
https://files.catbox.moe/t0pn97.webm
> "It's NOT Capitalism!"
https://files.catbox.moe/3j3pl8.webm
> The Total Annihilation of Stefan Molyneux
https://files.catbox.moe/8kc317.webm
> Comment to "The Total Annihilation of Stefan Molyneux"
https://files.catbox.moe/9ppk8s.webm
> The Decapitation of a Two Headed Beast
https://files.catbox.moe/qi15vn.webm

>>58322211
> (((Marx's writings))) and (((The Bible)))

>>58322267

>>58320028
>It was state capitalism
lol, you fucking retard.

>>58322279
Yes. Although communism is a lot worse since they are narcissistic enough to replace god with themselves which removes all accountability.

Which is why its the belief system that has killed the most innocents ever

>>58320241
>We can calculate how many calories people need to survive and be healthy
>A couple of bottles of vodka for the week and the comrades are good to go

We should like, make a huge fun camp were we would compel people like you to partake in usefull proletarian friendly activities

>>58322026
Actually read Capital. Marx goes over this yes its subjective the value of the labor is determined by the use value to the other party. Like first chapter is just Marx going on and on about coats and linen and how its subjective. Either way that labor is where the value is originally created and capital is just a storage for that labor.

>>58322160
Actually read Capital the demand side is what use value is about.

Nobody ever actually reads theory shits messed up.

>>58322630
No, it essentially says adding processing steps increases price, then confuses it with value.

>>58319902
Cool starry, bra.

>>58320028
>It wasn't socialism. It was state capitalism
So that's why shitlibs use its symbolism in their shitty memes, or make claims that the USSR was a successful society that was only subverted by capitalist infiltration?
Kill yourself, pedo.

>>58320070
LMAO
>>58322267
>>58322279
Good morning sir

>>58322643
Marx sees price and value as 2 intrinsically different things. Seriously read the book man stop talking out your ass.

>>58322682
Read Marx. Communism can only exist after the collapse of all states and the abolishment of all monetary systems. Its a utopian idea that would only be possible through and international revolution of the proletariat.

>>58322291
The society which organizes production anew on the basis of free and equal association of the producers will put the whole state machinery where it will then belong—into the museum of antiquities, next to the spinning wheel and the bronze axe - Engels

>>58319902
1. automatization means one pair of hands can produce more. it makes products cheaper, so lower wages ain't a problem. but anyway it's not the case, because wages probably won't go lower (even inflation adjusted) - automatization through all of it's history made more better paid jobs requiring higher qualifications. it doesn't seem that it gonna change.
2. the rate drops to a level below which it is no longer profitable to go down and there is nothing wrong with that. then there is motivation to change the business profile to a more profitable one - where the demand is not yet met. that's the beauty organic-like features of capitalism.

>>58319902
All true but you're missing the point that it was initially designed to inevitably fail and end up in communism. Everything is going according to plan.

>>58322764
>Yesterday I took a piss and blood came out, it wasnt pleasant. - Some random bloke.

Eat shit.

>>58322735
there was one such time that happened, it was the fall of the roman empire in the west. it lead to serfom. just like your dumbass takes on politics and economy you filthy tankie

>>58320276
>capitalism
The whole reason why we got the subprime mortgage crisis was because we're on a fiat standard where the state and central bankers control the money supply, and in its aftermath can choose to bailout friends of the state from taxpayer money. (and the inflation tax aka money printer go brr)

>>58322972
It is fucking insane how much people talk without reading. Yes this is exactly what Marx said retard. What you are talking about was the transition from slavery to feudalism.

>>58323092
holy shit youre such a fucking retard.

>>58323119
This is why I said earlier I have never seen anyone actual refute Marx. It always just turns into them getting angry as fuck lmao. Make an actual point or stfu

>>58323159
marx was a capitalist only talked that bullshit to poor idiots who don't know any better.

>>58323159
ok, here it goes

>primitive society had no excess of wealth/class conflicts
>conflicts were driven by slaves against their masters in the classical era
>medieval era was about conflicts between serfs and lords
>there was a transition from slavery to feudalism

all of them are wrong you dumbass. i actually studied history but i wont spoon feed you. kys

>>58323186
so your argument is nuh uh

>>58323197
Im not really arguing with you. Im mostly saying you are a retard.

>>58323183
Marx was a thinker he didn't practice any of this. He was funded by and best friends with Engels who was actual bourgeoisie.

>>58323214
I know, because you have no argument.

>>58323215
No thinker, just the typical agent of the ruling power. His script was given to him by his family to sell to the public. He is rothschild.

>>58323234
oh trust me, there is no arguing with your kind, the only thing you deserve is some lead in the back of your skull

>>58323265
>>58323238
World is so cooked. Jesus wept.

>>58323289
I see you can't refute anythign I said. You say Engels was bourgeoisie as if Marx wasn't also. kek

>>58323323
You said some /pol/ dumbshit it is literally not worth responding to. Marx did not hate the bourgeoisie it was those who came after him who did, he just wanted to dismantle the class system. Marx would be considered an Intelligentsia, he did not own any means of production so he was not bourgeoise although he did benefit from it through Engels. Marx was not Lenin, he was not Stalin, he was a poor guy supported by his rich friend that wrote books. Thats it. Books that completely changed the world.

>>58323357
I didn't say Marx hated the bourgeoisie. Putting words in my mouth that's an old tactic. Can you not read, he is in the family of Rothschild by marriage, end of story. Those who fell for the marxist/ communism schtick are mainly only poor people. Marx didn't believe in any of the shit he was spewing and no decent human would want to live in a communist society.

>>58323408
You think Marx spent his entire life studying and writing about something he did not believe in. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

>>58323426
You are a simpleton only you may just be a con artist. Yes he spent "half his life writing about something eh didn't believe in". See the trickery in that statement? So if I'm a rich ruler sure I'll write to the plebs about how they need to be enslaved and how it's good for them and how they will ultimately rule the world, hahahaha what a joke. Sure if I'm a wealthy ruler I'll write manuscripts for the poor and decadent about how they should just love making the same low income while never advancing in anything. I always found it hard how people couldn't see through this bullshit but now I realize humans are lazy and simply dumb as fuck and also don't think for themselves.

>>58323463
You believe Marx was a rich ruler? How? Dude was broke as fuck

>>58319902
Just try to make as much money as you can and get a lifestyle as comfy as you can before you get priced out.

>>58323487
kek broke, keke ekekekekek. he was rothschild several times you obviously didnt know that but Im sure you looked it up and you still come back spewing stupid shit instead of admitting how youve been fooled all along just like hundreds of millions also. Your ego won't allow it.

>>58322682
Using the word "socialism" as a synonym for "communism" is a tell tale sign that you're either a dumbass left leaning college student or a dumbass meth smoking fox news junkie.

>>58319902 | >>58319965 | >>58320028
>>58320050 | >>58320053 | >>58320067
>>58320070 | >>58320086 | >>58320105
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>>58320318 | >>58320326 | >>58320388
>>58320786 | >>58320939 | >>58321854
>>58321865 | >>58321905 | >>58321917
>>58321923 | >>58321925 | >>58321985
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>>58323265 | >>58323289 | >>58323323
>>58323357 | >>58323408 | >>58323426
>>58323463 | >>58323487 | >>58323500
You guys need to look at this post: >>58322251 <--- that's the best post in this thread.