/biz/ - Business & Finance

Retarded idea. Central planning is dumb enough. Central planning where people who don't know anything about economics are allowed to vote on it is totally absurd.

I really think he is throwing around keywords and has no clue what he's talking about.

"democratic planned economy" so what? the nation has to all get together and vote on the price of goods and services? not a chance would that work...

>>580559

>I really think he is throwing around keywords and has no clue what he's talking about.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINRAR

The only thing worse than an anti-capitalist authoritarian is an anti-capitalist authoritarian without a plan.

If you're going to go around claiming tenets of civilization need to be "abolished" you need to have a better proposal to replace ten thousand years of practice than something that starts with "some kind of".

I wonder if he realizes he'd personally be much worse off under the system he advocates for.

Capitalism is like fire: powerful, amazing, and necessary for survival.

But unrestrained it can be very destructive.

So, I favor the free market, with controls to favor the labor class.

This guys quote is beyond retarded.

>>580555
>democratically planned economy

I'd need to know what it is before I could form an opinion

>>580557
democratic planning does not always equal central planning.

When I imagine communism I amigine high-tech villages, with the villagers deciding what to produce. late-stage socialism will basically be everyone has their own person perfect complicated parts-making and assembling 3D printer. And they vote on what to make with the bigger 3d printers.

>>580607
That's still effectively central planning.

>>580589
It is essentially what utopian Marxism aspires to be.

>>580557
>Central planning where people who don't know anything about economics are allowed to vote on it is totally absurd.

That's funny, I would characterize an economic state where individuals "vote" (i.e. choose) what products to buy and what to make themselves as, I believe the term is... a "free market"?

Your're all unironic morons, and Mr. McIntosh is either extra moronic or a brilliant and subtle troll.

>>580555

>democratic participatory planning process
>people get together to decide what they're willing to pay for goods and services through a bid/offer process

>what is a market?

>>580555
it should be allowed but shouldn't be imposed on people

>what is happening in venezuela now.exe
http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/12/investing/venezuela-russia-default-wall-street/index.html

>>580675
No, what McIntosh seems to be suggesting is not a free market. The implication is that there would be some sort of majority rule that everyone would have to go along with. That's not how a free market works.

>McIntosh is either extra moronic or a brilliant and subtle troll.

McIntosh is just reacting to Gawker losing shekels over GG. He doesn't like it when people in his line of business are forced into loses because the consumers are sick of their shit.

freedom to inform and be informed I think are indispensable condition of the market and democracy

>>580619
Isn't all planning, central planning? What I meant was a federal system, where villages plan on the village scale and states plan on the state scale and so on.

Whenever I hear central planning I think of the national government assigning everyone an apple for a snack. that's why I push back against it.

>>580681
>people get together to decide what they're willing to pay for goods and services through a bid/offer process
>pay bid/offer

in a market and your characterization of economic democracy, money equals votes. Which is ridiculous because that would mean some people have more votes.

Surprisngly, the only people like the guy in OPs picture are people who have never tasted poverty.

>mfw moved from post-communist dystopian shithole to usa
>mfw when first job was stocking shelves
>mfw 5 years later Im a developer with a 7k emergency fund and slowly building my mutual fund investments (got 15k in there)
>mfw people here are so lazy and blind they cant use the gigantic opportunity if it hit them in the face and later fucked their asshole, so they clamor for communism

People who want it absolutely lose their shit when they get it. See also, the Spare Room Subsidy that is causing untold butthurt in the UK at the moment.

>>580735

> money equals votes. Which is ridiculous because that would mean some people have more votes.

It's almost as if some people have contributed more to society, and have a higher stake in the decisions being made.

>>580774
This guy gets it. Too many faggots nowadays want everything handed to them on a golden platter. Worthless parasites.

>>580774

You do know everyone can't be a success in your system either.

>>580799

>let them eat cake!

Have fun getting mugged and murdered so that they can eat.

Surely markets are the most democratic system possible? You can literally 'vote' on the price and hence output with your potential demand and supply.

>>580807
Have fun getting shot and dying in a ditch. In the long run, automation will destroy most of the pleb jobs. If you haven't had the foresight to prepare yourself for this, youve got noone to blame but yourself.

>>580803
"My" system? Which system are you talking of? The one I was born into or the one I live under now?
See, the system, in which death throes I was born into made the decision who is and how is not a success for you. The party could tell your family to up and live somewhere else. They could force you to do a mundane job you hate for 40 years.

You wanna be rich? Tough luck. You wanna be a hippy? Tough luck. Wanna protest all these choices being made for you? You and your family suffer.

Here, in the US, sure, some people are fucked from the start. There is a lot of corruption and nepotism. There is some police brutality and other bad things.

However, you cannot even imagine the corruption and nepotism when people "plan" things for other people. Not to mention the savagery. It's a few orders of magnitude above anything you have ever witnessed and so, Im not saying this to fuck with you in any way, I am being as sincere as I can, you cannot imagine these things. You think wasting 4 hours in the dmv is bad? My parents had to wait in lines for 16+ hours to get things like meat if there was any left.

Here, in the US the great majority have the freedom of choice.

Wanna be rich? Go for it. Wanna be a tree hugging hippie? Go for it. Wanna be a spoiled pseudo-marxist punk? Go for it. Do you anything you want.

You might think Im dazzled by bright lights and expensive cars. No, I'm dazzled at being warm, well fed, and having the reins of my life in my own hands, bar accidents.

>John McIntosh
Isn't that Anita's master?

>Democratic finances

So you want a bunch of people with no financial background or sense having a say in your countries economy is run? I hope you de-friended whoever this guy is, people who can't even spell the word 'planning' correctly need to shut the fuck up on socioeconomic issues.

>>581393

>So you want a bunch of people with no financial background or sense having a say in your countries economy is run?

Just to play the devil's advocate, we've had the world's top financial experts run economies for the past few decades, and all they've done is create a giant house of cards that funnels freshly-minted fiat currency to the well-connected establishment at the expense of the middle class.

Not saying that Liberal Arts Education: The Tweet has a better idea, of course. Rather, it's becoming increasingly clear we would be better off with no economic planning (i.e., no channels for people at all.

>>580788
if you think money is a function of contribution to society, you need to grow up, and experience the real world.

>>580851

your command of english still needs work

It's a deeply foolish idea proposed by the naive but well meaning, the ill-intentioned who on some level feel that they will be the next Stalin, and those to ignorant or stupid to understand the ramifications of what they are proposing.

>>580555
It won't be efficient.

>>580851
This guy gets it.

People in general aren't going to take kindly to have their lives decided for them past childhood. This is basic human nature. Trying to break this is begging for failure.

It is kind of surprising how much attention economic theories that fail to account for the realities of the animals they deal with by having a nice utopian vision to present.

>>580555

free markets are democratically voted.

think of your dollars as little ballot votes each time you spend them, no voting booth necessary

>>581460
>democracy
>some people have more ballots than others
>the number of ballots you have determines what you get to vote on
>the more ballots you have, the easier it is to get more ballots

"Democracy" is not the word you're looking for.

>>580555

could you imagine the public that average 100 IQ voting where the economy should go, it's almost as bad as politicians deciding where the economy should go. wait there would be no economy in you world, I guess it would just be mob rule and forced labor all over again disguised with "democratic planning process"

>>581461

yes typically the more productive you are the more say you have in the economy in a real free market, not in today's mixed economy

Since you just got into college and you profs are feeding you socialist propaganda heres a little book to read

>>580851
truth told

communism was just the propaganda front for politicians and rulers whose real goal was simply to gain power, and it is the same in a democracy to a lesser extent, see venezuela >>580690

>by their fruits ye shall know them

also your command of english is fine and >>581443 is a taffer

>>580851

right on brother, see in america it's cool and edgy to be a commie when you're around 17-23 years old, our intellectual base is fucked at our socialist universities.

>>581463
>"real free market"
>productivity and income are correlated

This shit has even less to do with reality than Marxism.

>>580851
>The party could tell your family to up and live somewhere else. They could force you to do a mundane job you hate for 40 years.

Just switch the word party with the market and it's the same shit.

Glorifying capitalism isn't any better than glorifying some shithole USSR satellite.

>You might think Im dazzled by bright lights and expensive cars. No, I'm dazzled at being warm, well fed,

Congratz you are what we call a prole.

>and having the reins of my life in my own hands

This delusional as fuck, you have just as much reins to do as you are told or die in a ditch.

FYI: I've lived in a former soviet shithole, and now living in capitalist shithole and it's all the same, the players are just different.

>>581480

>switch party with market

Ah yes, because "the market" isn't subject itself to input and output from masses of consumers based upon changing of preferences fully outside of the purview of itself and economics, and is in fact perfectly analogous to a ruling party of officials.

Bravo anon. So brave.

Everybody should get what they deserve. If I spend 10 years in school, working my ass off at work, doing some very risky + stressfull + important job and I get 6 figures, why would some idiot with 0 education get that for making burgers?

>>581473

you should try explaining you reasoning tough guy

>>580788
this guy over here

>>581508
>you should try explaining you reasoning tough guy

You talk as if the guy I was replying to was was speaking words passed to this world from the gods. Maybe we should first know what this "free market" I keep hearing about actually looks like.

mods please delete this thread, it is getting to be /pol/ish

>>581529

You tell what is wrong with polish thread! Nothing!

>>581461
>democracy
>some people are able to vote because their age is higher than other people ("minors")
>or because they just happen to have the right nationality

Sounds like national-gerontocracy to me, not democracy

>>581438

It s representative of ones economic contribution to society.

>>581480
>Glorifying capitalism isnt better than glorifying some shithole USSR satellite

Holy shit, you are brainwashed. People in eastern europe had problems even getting basic necessities. Even the proles in the US could afford cars, for example.

> [...] prole
Truly, you need some schooling in practical marxism, comrade! How about you move to some third world marxist shithole like cuba or north korea and experience the joys of not being warm and not being well fed.

> Delusional

Are you actually retarded or something? Much like feudalism, central planning puts you in a place despite your choices. In capitalism, even in this corporatist shit we have today, you at least have an option.

fucking jew

>>581534
>It s representative of ones economic contribution to society.

Not at all since large sums of money can be obtained through channels outside one's economic contribution such as inheritance, or by economically destructive methods such as theft and extortion.

as far as representing someone's contribution to society goes I am certain that money is more accurate than a vote

So some playboy inherits $10 million. How often does this happen? Definitely less than 1%. A surgeon might earn ~$8 million during their career and there are definitely more surgeons than rich people who inherited their wealth.

What if the playboy's father earned his wealth, if he wants to give it to his son that's his business, that is also something to consider. Assuming the father isn't part of some feudal dynasty dating back to the times when wealth was obtained by brutally oppressing peasants/slaves, it really isn't much of a big deal.

>>581480
Top lel. Where did you live? When? Where do you live now?
Funny how Ive never felt forced to do anything* here and picked my way into a nice career.

A prole? After growing at ~1500 calories per day and no dental care between being 10 and 21 (when I emigrated), being warm, fed, and being able to afford a dentist (funny, healthcare is the most socialist thing in the US and it's the worst thing ever) makes me a prole? No, it makes me happy to be alive.

Like I said, this place has lots of problems. So many, I can't even be bothered to list them all. But here I am not hungry, I am working in a field Ive loved since I was 6 years old, and I know my children won't be hungry too. Much of this is by my own choice and work.

Look at belarus now. More or less that is how things were when I was very very young.

More economically, look at poland and ukraine now. Both poland an ukraine enacted major economical reforms in 90-91. Poland went through with them, even though they caused 3-5 years of a very bad market. Ukraine, once shit hit the fan, reverted back. 20 years later, Poland is a pretty good to live in, though it's still shaking off lots of socialist-related shit. Ukraine? It's still poor, corrupt, people cant afford medical care or good food. Poland's gdp per capita went from ~ 1500 usd to 13000usd. Ukraine's went from ~1500 usd to 4000usd. Looks like bringing in some capitalism to poland made everyone better off.

Each system has its evils, but capitalism is the lesser of the two evils. I pains me to see people advocate the larger of the two evils simply because they have never suffered it.

*except at border crossings

>>581525

Complete separation of government and economics, no central planning from voted in retards=free market

government would only be there to settle disputes, stop people from fraud/theft, stop violence, protect the rights of it's citizens

it shouldn't be there to run the economy

>>581458
So much this. Im almost drunk on freedom, even when the going gets tough.
>>581467
I cant say what the reason was for communism, marx's book seems like idealistic drivel with no basis in reality (doesnt even belong in economics section). It just doesnt work.
>>581472
Yeah, Ive noticed. It always baffles me because this is the wealthiest place, so the success of capitalism is most evident here. Like Ive said before, there's a lot of problems here and some people get really unlucky and live shitty lives, but here it's luck or laziness, there - no matter what you did, you would end up having a shitty life.

There's still a good deal of open minded people who know what's real and what's not, it's definitely far from being lost.

>>581536
Word, towarzyszu

>>581508
>>reasoning
>The entire fucking string of CEOs in HP from Carly Fiorina onwards.
>Blackberry
>Enron
>Any executive suite at a nonprofit hospital

>>581570
>Complete separation of government and economics, no central planning from voted in retards=free market

And the most powerful economic actors now control the market and manipulate it in their favor. You just traded government regulation for monopoly abuse and you still don't have a free market.

>>581587

monopolies are only products of government intervention

the difference is the government uses force, the private sector needs your voluntary cooperation

if they do use force then the government role is step in to punish them for violating your rights

>>581581

some people are going to lie and cook their books... it's unethical and they got what was coming to them.. some of them committed suicide

I don't think CEOs are taking notes on how to become shams like Enron. I doubt more and more regulations are going to stop it, it's just going to strangle out the ethical CEO's in red tape

It's in no business's self interest to be a fraud

>>581480

Don't you have cultural anthropology homework to work on?

>>581622
>monopolies are only products of government intervention

Pic related

>the private sector needs your voluntary cooperation

Pic extra related

But, seriously, company towns, cartels, collusion.

You're a fucking moron.

0. (Optional step) Merge with another company. This will make the later steps look better.

1. Layoff a bunch of people.

2. Sell off parts of your company to someone.

3. Borrow money so you can buy back your stock.

4. Enjoy greater earnings per share.

Can I run IBM now?

>>581622

>monopolies are only products of government intervention

Laughed so hard I almost shit my pants.

>>581630
>Its in no businesses self interest to be a fraud
Lmao its in every businesses self interest to fraud. Its the getting caught part that jams them up a bit. You think Enron was the only company to do what it did?

Democracy is a stupid way to get anything done. The reason private companies are more efficient and profitable than governments is because the capable upper management make experienced decisions and implement them. If they let every pleb janitor and book keeper vote on who should be CEO that would be considered idiotic. We should view governments the same way - democracy is flawed at its core because the layman doesn't understand how it works and is voting for someone often based on their popularity (Obama) or because they don't like the other candidates (Abbott) rather than having someone reach positions of power in government based on capability and merit.

If you were to enter a planned economy, which IMO is a better idea than letting the free market go through booms and busts all the time - you need a government that is capable, lacks corruption, and can execute laws or actions very efficiently and quickly rather than having to wait for all the parties to argue over something, change the law, then it has to pass through a second level of gov etc.

Really what you want is a one party technocratic/meritocratic government with an online direct democracy option - like a combination of Singaporean autocracy and Swiss direct democracy. The government enacts something immediately and makes changed as it goes along if required, and then if the people don't like it they can vote to appeal.

>>580851
>My parents had to wait in lines for 16+ hours to get things like meat if there was any left.

No wonder man, it was hard to get Kosher.

>>581576
It was never supposed to work. In fact they wanted people to have the most deluded view of reality reasonably possible. As long as they are chasing shadows and fighting windmills they aren't questioning the actions of the state, hence them blaming pretty much every thing imaginable on capitalism.

>>581630
Enron aside, the parachute clause nonsense of silicon valley of the late 90's/early 00's show how little there is a correlation between productivity and income. It was a golden age of stockholder usury.

>>581674
democracy is flawed but ultimately mob rule is preferable to tyranny

>>581622
>monopolies are only products of government intervention
Somebody slept through their history class.

The entire fucking Industrial Revolution refutes this point.

Machines and automation make concentration of wealth and monopolies a naturally forming occurrence.

>>581680
balding men in their 40s going through a mid life crisis lose their kid's college funds, corrupt businessmen jump out of windows, the speculators who knew all along it was a bubble and switched to bond ETFs at the first sign of trouble took their money because they were superior and deserved it

soon all the money is in the hands of the intelligent and scam artists don't do so well anymore

it is market forces, natural selection, the invisible hand, you don't need a government to regulate things, just wait

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQCo9fLYWI

Free market will fix it. People can't get jobs? They'll change specialties or starve. The government can't do a god damn thing right and they always over-tune when they try and fix something.

>>581644
>>581649
>>581692
monopolies can only form when there is some sort of overwhelming advantage, like standard oil which was basically a 20th century oil refinery in the 19th century, and frankly for this they deserved the enormous amount of money they made and should have been allowed to continue unfettered, their innovations were a crucial step in the development and popularization of combustion engines, there would have been no ford, no wright brothers, no nothing. Or maybe it would have just taken a little longer, but then life is short so it is good to speed up technological progress.

>>581681
Mob rule is, at the basis of it, tyranny - it is run by fear and hysterics and the mass being influenced by the loudest. Tyranny implies corruption or that the government doesn't have the best interests of the people at heart (Such as North Korea) but that is not what I am suggesting, I am suggesting a government with the same immediate authority as NK but lacking the corruption and nepotism etc. - which is to say it would essentially be a constitutional benevolent and held in place by a direct democracy. If anything most current democracies are more tyrannical as they rarely do what the people who voted them in wanted them to do - they often lie about their plans or go back on election promises, and at the end of it all instead of doing what they are supposed to (caring about the population of the country which they are governing) they worry about stupid garbage like international politics and spend too much time and energy looking at what other people are doing rather than fixing their own internal problems or taking the time to listen to their own population. Seems every second day there's some kind of riot in the US and yet your own government, who you clowns elected, has done nothing to improve the living standards of the less than privileged US citizens.

>>580555
Free markets ARE a democratic in nature. What the people want is what succeeds. Its when you toss states into the mix that you get this corrupt mess of a market.

Democratic Socialism kills productivity way to often. It removes the incentive to work. Anyone who is wealthy in a poorer family knows this all to well.

If families have trouble with handling money/goods/work among 2-10 people, imagine a million people.

Also, free markets don't stop people from forming voluntary cooperatives, so I don't see a conflict under a voluntary free market system.

>>580555
A benevolent, incorruptible autarch who has the bests interests of his people at heart is objectively the best form of government. No red tape, no bullshit, just getting shit done.

>>581752
I remember Milton Friedman said once that a system that depends on the right people is a bad system. What happens if the son is a douche, but he is smarter at hoarding power?

Nothing more democratic than free market capitalism. If it's fairly priced, buy/invest, otherwise don't. Price discovery is as democratic as it gets. Anticapitalist is antidemocratic (not saying I disagree but he clearly doesn't know what he's saying)

Poor people salty.

>>580675
Yeah, why don't they "vote" by buying the products they want and not buying the products they don't want/can't afford?

>>581756
What I don't understand is he thinks free markets exclude voluntary cooperatives.

>>580555

We already have one. It's called the free market.

>>581762
These types of people see a Company like GM that gets bailed out, and they think that is the "free market" just because in fact, the money paid is market based, but it is done through coercing taxpayers, not free at all.

>>580851
Top notch.

>>580559
That is capitalism meme 8 except instead of voting with a blank slip, it's a green one

>Can't drag people out to vote every 4 years let alone every time the fed or treasury changes policy
>because all those voting idiots know a lot about M2 and QE

We hire and vote experts so we can do our own jobs. That's called civilization.

>>580555
>markets are a destructive force and need to be abolished
Stopped reading there.

>>580555
Terrible idea, people are stupid

>>580861
yes

>>580557
Not to mention tribalism and factionalism, you'll have the lazy, uneducated poor demanding money and easy bureaucratic jobs.
Much like the modern Democrat party :^)