/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>57990761
eth started dying when it switched to proof of shit. it was the highest POW coin after BTC at the time. now its fucking dogecoin. FUCKING DOGECOIN HAS MORE ECONOMIC BASIS THAN ETH, THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT

was proof of stake really a mistake?

its not dying, its just going home, and its home is $0

>>57992152
Check the ETHBTC chart since they went PoS

>>57992152
PoS is the long game. Bitcoin's energy needs are just too fucking big after a point to be worthwhile as either store of value or of currency.

>>57992291
Lol

>>57992291
when theres not enough energy to mine bitcoin there also wont be enough energy to maintain internet infrastructure

>>57990761
is not dying kek, you just haven't invest enough, PUT MORE MONEY INTO IT
and if you dont have enough, try investing into altcoins with low market cap like XRP or SUPER

>>57992349
what the fuck am i reading

>>57992152
of course it was, lol. proof of stake is an ancient idea in blockchain time, it has never worked, ethereum didn't do anything special to try to make it work.

>>57992291
this is like when democrats keep saying their ace in the hole for 2024 is to get trump indicted and arrested

>>57990761
who would get into that shit with those gas fees, as soon as truflation gets a crypto index we will get into new crypto era, avoid rug pulls and big dumps...

>>57992712
how the fuck truf gonna do the thing nobody has been able to do?

>>57992721
well they are gonna implement heavy AI datanalysis tech.... in the end any input by that ai is better than any old fags shitposting here.

>>57992291
didn't think I would read something that stupid
considering the energy use doesn't scale positively with price appreciation, and that PoS tokens chances of being compromised increases over time, as states accumulate more in proportion

>>57992349
or food, or light, or anything.... we better start reaping stars by then.

>>57992789
DYSON THAT SHIT NOW

>>57990811
So many PoW shills in here lol. All of nu/biz/ is too retarded to understand PoS vs. PoW arguments.

>>57992291
PoS literally stands for Piece of Shit

>>57992849
if you think PoS is secure you're an absolute newfag

>>57992291
Now this is some solid bait

>>57992743
Energy use does scale with difficulty of obtaining the block reward tho you stupid fucking retard

>>57993842
that is meaningless if it's used to secure something extremely valuable, and when the us finally decides to attack the network and invade smaller countries to seize mining factories to save the dollar, we will need much more power than that, what matters is that energy use doesn't scale linearly with price as some retards believed

>>57993732
How is Ethereum PoS not secure?

>>57993989
it is not really secure compared to bitcoin because PoS is based on the idea that security is derived from units of the network owned, the idea is to protect against censorship and states, and unfortunately states have the power to tax those units, until they have all the funds required to censor the network or constantly reorg or cause troubles on the network such as forced forks, if it ever becomes an issue for their fiat system. this is less secure than PoW that requires energy.

>>57994125
So you're saying governments will buy enough ETH to attack it? The attacker will either get slashed or UASF'd. Govs can more easily buy/seize all ASIC mining companies and hardware manufacturers to attack PoW. That's way cheaper and accessible than hoarding tens of millions of ETH, getting UASF'd losing it all and getting lots of taxpayers (in reality they would print money for this and not use taxes) very angry. The argument of gov buying or seizing enough ETH to attack the network has been long refuted. Might as well print and buy, the end result is the same UASF.

>>57994125
PoS has more possibility for human interference in cases like this. It has its good and bad sides but one of the good sides it allows for L0 (users) to take over and fuck up the attacker in doomsday scenarios like this. PoW is eternally doomed if it gets 51%'d.

>>57990761
At least it's better than having your money in dollars, fucking dogshit currency keep getting cucked by the federal reserve
According to Truflation, we are getting 3% inflation rate and still going up

>>57994305
no, I'm saying governments will tax eth holders as they've always done, but ask to be paid in eth so they can accumulate a stack, if they ever want to attack the network. though they can also print and buy eth, or seize exchanges and ETF providers funds.

yes they will get slashed or forked, but please just read my post again is I'm not going to explain again. seizing miners requires energy also, and there could be resistance when a state attempts to steal property. it's also the miner's job to move out when they feel the political climate is hazardous.

>>57994340
it's funny because the reality is that it's PoS systems that are doomed once there's entities that have the power to own majority of the stake, and that's exactly the world we live in. in PoW systems it's a constant battle for energy, and there's also the unlikely possibility to announce a mining algorithm change, and reset the miners computing power, or switch to an asic resistant algorithm if needed while new asics aren't widespread enough. it's also the miners job to prepare for those kinds of situations.

the question isn't if a 51% is possible (though it's hardly possible in my opinion) it's that which system is safer, and that's PoW

>>57994586
>will tax eth holders as they've always done
They can use tax money to buy ASICs, miner companies and manufacturers and doesn't even matter what the tax is denominated in. And what's the difference of collecting ETH instead of any other currency/asset and use that to buy ETH? It would take years or decades to plan an attack that would end up failing and costing 100%. No government will do this.
>are doomed once there's entities that have the power to own majority of the stake
So you say you understand how UASFs work but still you insist on this? PoS has way better chances and more options to recover from attacks than PoW.
>constant battle for energy
A major government has way more than enough energy to spin up ASIC miners for an attack. Getting enough ASICs is the bigger problem. Once the 51% attack is running it will become cheaper over time as no one is being paid mining rewards, dropping the hashrate down.
>PoW recovery
Yeah from ASIC to GPU to CPU algos. Will be interesting to see this happen in 5 or so halvings. Most likely a PoS Bitcoin too.
>isn't if a 51% is possible (though it's hardly possible in my opinion) it's that which system is safer, and that's PoW
Now they are pretty much tied (both extremely high), but Bitcoin PoW halvings will bring it down in the future unless a solution is found to keep miners mining. BTC price going up massively has kept miners profitable through halvings but the days of huge price growth like this are starting to be over, simply because of its size. $/hash adjusted hashrate will start to drop after a few halvings unless BTC goes well into tens/hundreds of trillions. If it goes there the next 5 or 10 halvings will kill it. How many times can the price double? Not as many as halvings will cut mining rewards by 50%.

>>57992152
>>57992291
everything not pow is scam

Ah damn I entered one of those high iq threads that scares and confuses me short term but makes me feel safe about crypto long term

>>57995010

>>57994984
>They can use tax money to buy ASICs, miner companies and manufacturers and doesn't even matter what the tax is denominated in. And what's the difference of collecting ETH instead of any other currency/asset and use that to buy ETH? It would take years or decades to plan an attack that would end up failing and costing 100%. No government will do this.
they can decide to just tax 50% of eths or just ask to custody all the eth. it doesn't matter. the fact is this attack is easier to conduct than doing a 51% on pow because it doesn't require energy, just having people obey the law, they already have the power. the attack doesn't fail if it disrupts the network. we know that in all systems the wealthy always get wealthier over time and that there's inequality, always, and the more time goes on the worst it is for eth. this is just a stupid system for money.

>PoS has way better chances and more options to recover from attacks than PoW.
I've already explained how it's not the case. don't be in denial please.

>A major government has way more than enough energy to spin up ASIC miners for an attack
maybe now, and I'm not even sure, bitcoin needs to use more energy. again, the question is whether it's safer than PoS, and yes it is

>Most likely a PoS Bitcoin too.
you're just a brainwashed drone aren't you. I've explained to you very clearly how PoS is vulnerable. don't say that using energy is less safe or as safe as not using energy.

>keep miners mining
fees will be so massive this subject isn't even worth debating over

>>57995221
>they can decide to just tax 50% of eths or just ask to custody all the eth.
So basically just seize it? They can also ask all Bitcoin mining companies to mine in their warehouses? Finding the Bitcoin miner warehouses is way easier than finding the old laptops running PoS validators through VPNs.
>the attack doesn't fail if it disrupts the network
Until people UASF it within like days, destroying all attacker ETH kek.
>I've already explained how it's not the case
You have basically ignored the possibility for PoS to UASF in emergency scenarios. PoW doesn't have this option. And that's not denial, it's simple facts.
>you're just a brainwashed drone aren't you
No, I'm just theorizing what will happen if/once Bitcoin chain gets compromised.
>don't say that using energy is less safe or as safe as not using energy
Energy this and energy that. You can't make up fake ETH just like you can't make up fake energy. In this argument I actually side with the gold bugs, you can't fake laws of physics but you can attack a network that keeps digital assets secure.
>fees will be so massive this subject isn't even worth debating over
When will they be big enough to balance out the halvings like Satoshi planned? Nothing has progressed in 10 years, ordinals mania fees were temporary and not stable enough to keep the chain secure long term. This is the biggest problem with Bitcoin is absolutely worth the biggest discussion there is. I fucking hate how people bury their heads in sand when this topic comes up. It's inevitable but it's far in the future everyone thinks "lol not my problem". Eventually halvings will kill Bitcoin if fees don't go up and stay there 100% stably.

>>57992291
>two more weeks

>>57995445
there's many points I've already said you can't seem to remember, it's like it goes over your head, yet it's key to understand why PoW is much safer. the mining algorithm change. the fact that miners need to dodge oppressive governments as part of their plan. if they're asked to censor the network, they can leave the country. if they stay either they resist or they comply. if they comply, and try to 51%, a simple fork can brick their miners. it costs them. as for PoS system, it doesn't cost them anything. something that is costly is more dissuasive and also harder to conduct many times.

>Until people UASF it within like days, destroying all attacker ETH kek.
ETH that they got for nothing, so they will just keep repeating that infinitely to disturb the network.

>PoS to UASF in emergency scenarios
the bitcoin consensus doesn't rely only on miners, the network can decide to force miners to use another algorithm even if they don't want to, but that would probably need to be an asic resistant algo if it's urgent

>You can't make up fake ETH just like you can't make up fake energy
yes states can earn eth just like that, and wealthy entities can collude to attack the network and instead accumulate something that have actual value and resistance

>Eventually halvings will kill Bitcoin if fees don't go up and stay there 100% stably.
this relies on adoption. the trend is positive. the more bitcoin grows the more users there will be the more fees there will be, obviously. and obviously we can't tell you when bitcoin will be used everywhere and hence when the fees could cover the network cost. that can be decades ahead or more. what matters is the trend. as long as there's a trend, this isn't worth debating over.

>>57995742
>the mining algorithm change
GPUs can be rented very easily and cheaply. It's not a good solution. And ASIC change you already pointed out there is simply not enough distributed ASICs for any other algo than SHA-256.
Your arguments are getting lower quality and I have to go anyway so I'll call it here. Thanks for the discussion though. I might come back later if the thread stays alive long enough.

>>57995801
I think I've said it's a temporary solution. what do you think will happen if a state 51% bitcoin and we need to brick their miners asap and we don't have asic resistance? someone will build asics before everyone and probably still own 51% of the network again, considering the network will be more vulnerable to brute force initially. I think bitcoin is big enough to survive to every current bitcoiners/miners cpu mining, there's also extremely powerful and wealthy people/entities in there, which will get rewarded for increasing the difficulty. but that's just my opinion, maybe no asic resistance would work too.

the argument is the same, PoW is more secure because it requires expenses, while PoS doesn't, just power that states already have. and they will use that power if eth becomes a threatening money to them.

ethereum is a zog chain. simple as

zoomer chose solana.
but zoomers are fickle so they might move on quickly

>>57996456
have you ever wondered why it's so cheap to transact on solana

>>57992849
Ethereum is a premine, devs stake their premine to earn rewards. Bankers like JPMorgan got in the scam. Everyone's retail ass fell for it. Exchanges like Coinbase love it because they can stake it. Everything that Bitcoin fought against (banking system) is undone by Ethereum if Bitcoin ends up being flipped by Ethereum. The primary use case (stables) are literally pegged to the traditional Jewish system and you idiots are still falling for it.

>>57996456
This is pretty much true. Eth is a ZOG chain, but Solana is a SBF scam chain. There's always something fishy about these PoS smart contract platforms.

>>57996513
>have you ever wondered why it's so cheap to transact on solana
none of that matters, just go where the money is.

dont mix your personal principles with crypto. even BTC now is zog controlled.

i will never touch ethereum or that slapheads base chain. 100% globohomo zog chains that will rat you out to the feds in a heartbeat.

>>57996575
>BTC now is zog controlled.
literally the opposite, funny how people just can't grasp bitcoin, even non normies