/biz/ - Business & Finance

ETFs are actually being OTC though
You don't think they're market buying billions on shitty illiquid order books right?
lmao

>>57263522
none of this sensationalist post makes sense

>>57263522
These people are complete morons. I can't believe people would believe idiots like this on twitter. They are desperate to pump their bags and the goal post keeps moving for these retards.

>>57263522
idk man the statistics say 1.3B dollars inflow happened today for the bitcoin etfs.

>>57263522
I'm sure Brad Mills (who?) has all of the correct information on this insider topic.

>>57263522
Well, exchanges have been running low lately. And low volume suggested that people don't sell.

>>57263535
>on shitty illiquid order books
we need money to win the war against evil empire called vatniggerstan

I could see whales not wanting to sell just before a halving, with the etf thing, with fasb/etc. Why sell for 46 when you can sell for 100k+ in 8 months?
We'll see in a couple days

I have seen conflicting shit on when the spot etf purchase turns into a BTC purchase though, i still dont know

>>57263550
Here are some numbers as of an horu ago

>>57263561
>I have seen conflicting shit on when the spot etf purchase turns into a BTC purchase though, i still dont know
they are supposed to hold 1:1 the bitcoin in the ETF. however, willthey just turn it into a jewry of a product and just ... don't ? who knows. there's 250:1 paper gold to gold ratio too.

>>57263535
Ha. No I know how this stuff works. Don't tell twitter what the OTC market is though. It will crush their sweet souls.

>>57263584
That's not really the concern it's just a matter of how quickly they get it sorted out with all the parties involved. I've heard they do something at the end of day but i'm not sure if that's acutally purchasing BTC or just like clarifying the BTC that's been purchased with the AP idk this shit is confusing

>>57263584
>doesn’t understand crosschain proof of reserve
This isn’t gold newfag

>>57263584
Surely this can't be the case, after all the other nonsense that's gone on through the years, there's gotta be 1 to 1 otherwise this shit is bound to collapse

dumb retards
youre buying btc paper

>>57263629
lmao if you think anyone here is actually buying the etf

>>57263561
> when the spot etf purchase turns into a BTC purchase

This is what confuses me too. I just don't understand why MORE bitcoin would need to be purchased unless there was a need to create more ETF shares.

Is the expectation just that more ETF shares will always be in the process of being created, so at the end of the day it's assumed that additional btc is required to back those shares?

>>57263640
I did with some spare dividend change lying around on my IRA.
I just wanted to see how hard they make it. Fidelity just made me agree to a warning.

>>57263561
6.2 billion on day 1 (so far) ? That's all retail investors. Corporate investors have to announce buys.
Pretty bullish.

>>57263640
I bought ARKB today.
>Hey anon did you buy the BTC ETF when it came out ?
Yeap one day ONE

>>57263662
>This is what confuses me too. I just don't understand why MORE bitcoin would need to be purchased unless there was a need to create more ETF shares.

See the Assets column vs the Volume column.
They will have to buy the difference. The Assets is the amount in dollars of BTC/BCH/BSV they already hold.

>>57263629
Wrong, the SEC asked outright for them to buy BTC with USD directly, they did not wanted funny stuff because Gary may be a cunt but he is not retarded enough to not realize a spot etf backed on nothing will end like a new FTX

>>57263735
volume isn't just in, it's in/out

>>57263522
If you believe this you are retarded. They buy from the miners or from the custodians. Turns out no one wants the fucking etf just like everyone on this board tried to tell you while Cathy wood and king kike Larry fink were making their cnbc tours. Look at the tickers for the etfs they are down like 5 percent since open.

>>57263779
>they are down like 5 percent since open.
Bitcoin is down that much since the open of the stock market anon. That's how the spot ETF works.

>>57263735
Does this occur throughout the day or at EOD? I guess if they don't match that means they align
them later?
>>57263770
do you think people are selling these brand new etfs that no one had before today 300 times over?

>>57263798
>do you think people are selling these brand new etfs that no one had before today 300 times over?

Greyscale is having massive outflows since the cunt Gary did not let them convert to an ETF, so people are selling GBTC for USD and then USD for BTC ETFs due to tax reasons.

>>57263584
>there's 250:1 paper gold to gold ratio
No. This is face value of futures contracts, it's like when King Bobo buys $20m in puts and the media calls it a $1b short.

>>57263770
>volume isn't just in, it's in/out
That's true but they have only been for sale since 8 am this morning.

>>57263798
>Does this occur throughout the day or at EOD?
No one seems to be clear about that just yet. I am not clear myself on when they have to actually /settle own the underlying asset(s) (BTC/BCH/BSV). I'll keep looking for the answer on twitter, it's an ongoing discussion.

>>57263735
Okay that mostly makes sense. So essentially $396mm needs to be purchased (either on the open market or OTC) to balance the books.

Still don't get why volume is the metric here. Volume could've been 1 trillion dollars, but if price stayed the same through the day, why would additional BTC need to be purchased? Money came in. Money went out. If money in = money out, what books need to be balanced?

I'm an idiot so sorry if these are dumb questions.

Imagine thinking they actually buy and hold real BTC lol its just fake scam paper just like buying gold ETF

>unproven claims that something is happening
ok

>>57263833
Look here
https://cdn.21shares.com/uploads/current-documents/products/ARKB/Factsheet_ARKB.pdf

Fund AUM $10,316,848.50

So that means they opened the fund today with 10 million dollars worth of BTC already purcahsed.
Any amount of Bitcoin denominated in US Dollars over 10 million has to be purchased, we just don't know HOW and WHEN.

Volume is just a metric for any ETF, it's not Botcoin ETF specific.

>if price stayed the same through the day, why would additional BTC need to be purchased?
If more people bought say more ARKB than the amount of BTC held by the ARKB fund, then the fund would need to buy more BTC to make the amount of BTC:ARKB 1:1.

HOW and WHEN they makes those purchases is anyone's guess. They don't say in their prospectus. I am sure much of it is purchased OTC and not on exchanges but even so at some point it will move the price of Bitcoin.

>>57263887
/biz/ in a nutshell

>>57263902
>even so at some point it will move the price of Bitcoin.
yeah, when they don't get enough buyers and they decide to reduce their position and sell of excess btc, lowering the price, potentially driving more buying and selling of their "product" so they can buy more again low, sell it to the ETF high, create volatility, make money on fees
It's a joke.

>>57263902
Got it. Makes sense.

Kinda surprising that you are allowed to sell ETF share beyond your actual holdings of the underly asset, but I guess it's not that shocking.

>>57263584
>there's 250:1 paper gold to gold ratio
Isn't the issue with paper gold that they say "we totally have all the gold we sell in paper but you see this is like some serious national security stuff so we can't let anybody audit it teehee~~" though?
Or is the paper gold ratio like a an actual, officially confirmed fractional banking chicanery?

>>57263833
Let's see what the biggest one says:
https://etfs.grayscale.com/gbtc

From 2015 until 1/11/2024, shares of GBTC were publicly-quoted on the OTCQX Market. Please view our FAQ on Grayscale’s product lifecycle to learn more. On 1/11/2024, GBTC was uplisted to NYSE Arca as a spot Bitcoin ETF. It now creates and redeems shares on an ongoing basis as part of its ETF structure.

The key point here is:
It now creates and redeems shares on an ongoing basis as part of its ETF structure.

"ongoing basis" is nebulous. Hopefully they or the SEC will give more clarification. it's day 1.

>>57263920
>yeah, when they don't get enough buyers and they decide to reduce their position and sell of excess btc, lowering the price,
True but the type of buyers for these etfs are very long term holders. It's mostly for retirement accounts and pension funds.

>>57263930
I mean we'll find out if the price suddenly starts going up.
If it's ongoing their buying patterns have been constant, if all ETFs have the same buying pattern at EOD or something I doubt there wouldn't eb something obvious in the price after closing time.

>>57263951
the bet of the century

>>57263951
Yes we will see. I'm taking a chance buying today before they actually have to buy more of the underlying assest(s) (BTC/BCH/BSV).

Either way this allows trillions to flow in the space through 401ks/IRAs/Pension Funds and Basket Etf's. Imagine if the Teamsters Union makes their pension fund 10% Bitcoin ETF. Or if say a third world country wants exposure to BTC through a regulated American market. Like say if Belize wants BTC exposure...

Thinks COULD get crazy very quickly.

>>57263522
The only thing that's going up is $Michael obamas LARGE penis on Sol

No breaks. Research never stops.

OTC desk insider here. What the guy states in the tweet is true. Can confirm.

>>57264092
So the price has yet to reflect the demand generated today while they try to barter. They’re going to have to buy in the spot market and move price

>>57264269
(Not the OTC anon)
providing they settle today.. I'm not sure how long they have to settle their accounts.

>>57264349
It’s insane the prospectus doesn’t shed more light on this. It’s an integral part of a spot etf to know when or how often they true up the underlying. It would be wild to see them go on a frenzy in the spot retail market hoovering up any order they could find. Price would go nuts with such thin liquidity. There can’t be near enough liquidity otc

How come volume is only up like 8% today? Isn't that pretty fucking shitty?

>>57264456
we have the etf trade #s

>>57264418
I'm wondering if the SEC will make them provide their addresses so we can just track this. It's alot of guess work as of now.

https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/entity/grayscale

>>57264479
Markets closed right ?
960 billion on day ONE? WOW that is insane.
Looks like they have to buy 411 billion - possible same day sales of the ETF

>>57264502
I wonder if coinbase prime is segregating each funds addresses on chain or mixing them together and using in house accounting to know whose is whose

>>57264526
Who knows...
From this page https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/entity/grayscale
if you mess around with the bottom right part it looks like grayscale settles every two weeks.

>>57264502
their custodian holds their BTC. their custodian can trade their BTC, buy and sell it for them when they need it, using other custodial BTC. None of this is happening on chain. none of these moves are likely to impact the price much

>>57264534
well the trust has actual addresses. The only way it wouldn't impact prices longterm is if they are trading paper bitcoin, which I understand is not the case.

>>57263951
Didn't the markets already close?

>>57264534
https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/entity/grayscale

click on the tab 'portfolio archive'. it shows the daily movements in total.

>>57264534
At what point does coinbase prime run of a custody bitcoin to pass around and venture into the spot market? Coinbase prime hasn’t ever dealt with these kind of dollar amounts before.

Fucking jannies of this shit site I swear to fucking god why are my posts not going through

>>57263928
No, it's dumbfuck boomer goldbugs counting OTM futures as "paper gold", a one ton $3k gold futures contract for next month trades for peanuts, obviously, it would be used as a leveraged long, not talking the place of one ton of actual gold, but the shiny rock faggots would claim this is one ton of "paper gold"

>>57264456
Testing
i cannot respond to 57264479
>>57264502
Testing

>>57264655
checked and we see it

>>57264479
Testing again

Markets closed and

Coinbase sold $7B of $btc OTC today. Imagine when Coinbase says "Sorry guys we are out."

>>57264663
got it

>>57263814
>Greyscale is having massive outflows since the cunt Gary did not let them convert to an ETF
Umm, he DID approve the conversion.

Why do you lie?

BTC going below 30k very soon.

>>57264575
>https://platform.arkhamintelligence.com/explorer/entity/grayscale
what is this neat little website and hwo do i make money off it

>>57264676
Maybe it's the text I'm trying to post.
Seven billion doll hairs does not seem like that much for a nine hundred billion doll hair m a r k e t c a p

>>57264696
That was it. What the fuck. 4chan is a fucking cesspool mire where you are so heavily censored that basic communication is impossible

>>57264691
just a tool that allows you to see a bigger picture about multiple wallets and where money is moving.

>>57264714
quick rundown on whats happening re: etfs, been off biz and out of crypto for about...3 years now

>>57264696
That's one ETF on day ONE when most people have zero clue that that bitcoin ETFs even exist. Give it time. The total is looking more like 400 billion purchased today in ETFS.

>>57264723
1st day of SEC approved Bitcoin Spot ETFs. The Companies have to hold 1:1 bitcoin in the funds. No one knows how long they have to settle but surely within 2 weeks.
Opens BTC to every single Retirement account and pension fund on planet earth top be able to buy bitcoin...

also in the small print, the funds can buy BTC/BCH or BSV..

>>57264736
How much time we talking? I got a kid on the way

>>57264755
based, thanks anon

>>57264755
>surely within 2 weeks
Subtle. I thought you were serious for a moment.

>>57264761
How much time for what ?
Bitcoin should double this year or the whole world was scammed and we have bigger problems.

>>57264771
if you have better information please tell us. I'm just an anon like everyone else here. I don't know what the SEC is requiring them to do.

>>57264755
>also in the small print, the funds can buy BTC/BCH or BSV..
Fake news. Prospectus explicits states they can only hold Bitcoin (ticker: BTC)

>>57264771
The reason I said surely within 2 weeks is because Grayscale GBTC has a history back to 2015 and they settled every two weeks.

>>57264802
Where can I see this ?
Grayscale filing with the SEC clearly mentions BSV and never even mentions BTC. It just says 'Bitcoin'

>>57263831
>BCH/BSV
Fuck your gay nigger forks, faggot. Those ETF jews better not be buying that shit instead of BTC
>but muh real bitcorn!!!
Kys

>>57263522
Literally impossible unless every single boomer (say 80m of them) in USA was going to go out and buy at least $10,000 of the BTC ETF

Bitcoin's a dead duck and wait til people find out how shit mining gets at halvings this late (see Garlicoin)

>>57264865
Then you should sell. We're buying.
The gold ETF was flat for weeks and then it moonshot and never looked back.

>>57264826
>Where can I see this ?
>Grayscale filing with the SEC clearly mentions BSV and never even mentions BTC. It just says 'Bitcoin'
The text clearly refers to a future fork of BTC, not past forks. BCH and BSV baggies tongue my anus.

>>57264897
I don't own BTC the returns are shit lol. Best you can hope for is a 2-3x ROI over the next 10, at best, if it was the most valuable company in the world.

On the contrary you also have a chance to lose all your money, just not worth investing in BTC imo unless you are only looking for an honest (but not ensured) 2x.

Remember there is a lot more BTC in supply than there was last bullrun. That's the drawback of BTC isn't it? At least with ETH you can stake it and keep up with inflation.

>>57264924
I bought Bitcoin at $430.. Tell me more.

>>57264924
>On the contrary you also have a chance to lose all your money, just not worth investing in BTC
true, bitfuck is going to zero. blackrock is the next ftx
>Remember there is a lot more BTC in supply than there was last bullrun.
>18.88mil september 2021
>19.59mil january 2024
wow so much extra supply. rapidly reaching max 21mil cap uhoh!
>At least with ETH you can stake it and keep up with inflation.
AKSHUALLY eth is deflationary. keep speaking out of your ass you pseud

>>57264755
>BTC/BCH or BSV.
Kek?

>>57263522
GUYS THEY JJUST CALLED ME AND SAID HEY DUDE I WANNA BUY YOUR BITCOIN ILL GIVE YOU 100K PER BITCOIN DUDE
100k PER BITCOIN!!
100K PER BITCOIN SO PLEASE BUY IT DUDE CMON HAHA YOUR NOT A BOOMER ARE YOU, BOOMERS HATE CRYPTO HAHAHAHA STUPID BOOMER STAY POOR ANYWAY, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE PUMP MY BAGS I NEED TO PAY RENT

ive been in btc since 2010 and still a poor no coiner. life finds a way.

>>57264969
Yeah but what happens to PoW once it stagnates because it isn't profitable anymore? Electricity prices aren't going down but mining pay is going down with the halving.

Honestly I know you'll call me a faggot but I think it's going to be the biggest rugpull of all time.

>>57265075
They make money from processing transactions. That was the whole idea since day one and actually BSVs main argument.

>>57265075
Literally last cycles cope. Miners don't sell below cost, if price doesn't rise miners drop hash and difficulty falls

>>57263522
>here's how the ETFs can still win

>>57263687
Every day it's one big vacuum sucking up loose supply. Doesn't matter how many weak handed retards there are, price will go up

>>57263522
we bart up.

>>57263561
>I have seen conflicting shit on when the spot etf purchase turns into a BTC purchase though, i still dont know
they settle after market hours. that's how they all work.
the prospectus will give you details on how precisely each fund manager intends to use the customer deposits, but there are limits on what they can do. generally, they will aim to keep the price moving towards NAV on any time scale.
>>57263584
>however, willthey just turn it into a jewry of a product and just ... don't ?
idiot.

you now live in the world of regulated securities.

>>57265425
It's looking that way

>>57263595
coins being sold on OTC still puts upwards price pressure....evaporating supply is still evaporating supply.

Most likely the suppliers of OTC are miners...but they don't have an endless supply and only 900BTC are mined per day now and thats going down to 450BTC soon
(for reference 150,000 BTC was bought today)

Brainlet here:

1) does the price of the share gap up every open to reflect where the price moved overnight? Is that what rebalancing means?

2) the shares don't track the minute by minute price of btc, just the demand for the ETF itself?

3) I guess I'm just wondering how similar to QQQ these things are

>>57263522
how long until 22 million BTC are being traded as ETFs alone?

Why would selling paper bitty through an etf matter for the price? It's not like people will panic sell based on how IBIT is trading that day, people will go by cmc and coinbase. Except for when they settle, but wouldn't we just end up with the GBTC discount again if it got too sus?

>>57265480
Settlement shouldn't be confused with activity, the actual movement of BTC happens afterhours, but purchases/hedges will be conducted during trading hours

>>57264690
Can these bears catch a break? BTC is going nowhere near that. As a matter of fact, 100k is already in sight and for ETH(the biggest winner of this ETF approvals), we'll be seeing 10k soon. My only regret is that I didn't sell all i have to top up as much as I wanted when it bottomed last year. Just clinging on to the yields I'm getting for leveraging it on the wETH pool of a Defi middleware as compensation.

>>57265015
You can't be in btc since 2010 and still al yourself a no coiner; it means you've not been anywhere. Move along poor fag!

>>57265301
Who's controlling this bug vacuum?

>>57263687
That’s over 134k worth of actual Bitcoin being bought on one day then. The supply crunch is going happen fast.

>>57265952
What is unknown is how much BTC the funds had ready for launch - pre-bought or more likely in contract option OTC. So they had option to buy x BTC from someone today, based on demand, at an agreed price. The volume was very high and good chance they need more BTC than expected. If that’s the case we’re going to see some ridiculous green candles, soon.

>>57266948
What Defi middleware are you referring to?

>>57267168
I'll exercise some caution in believing these numbers if I were you

>>57264897
Stop giving these retards the expo.
Let them sell! They'll definitely learn the hard way

>>57263522
complete bullshit

>>57263522
This guy found the pre-buy amount in the prospectus.

>>57267223
Staking ETH on SpoolFi atm; gives me access to leverage on rETH and srETH at the same time. That's why it's called an aggregator or a middleware. You're welcome!

>>57264534
But it'll create some sort of scarcity which will eventually affect price.

>>57264570
Market never closes with crypto

>>57265135
Do you know any miners? I want to join the club

>>57267445
>Staking ETH on SpoolFi atm
What are the yields here like? Recently saw a mETH pool that has about 8% as yields. Don't think even Lido gives that much

>>57263558
where did this come from?

>>57264942
If you really bought BTC at $430, you wouldn't have time to be on here; you'll be on a yacht rn with lots of asses in your face!

>>57263640
you are kidding ofc. I can now buy and sell BTC unlimited times in my Roth Ira without generating a taxable event.

>>57264942
You clearly made poor decisions afterwards if true.

BlackRock
>we would like to "purchase" dinner bitcoin
Coinbase
>uhhh certainly

This is what you demanded from the SEC.

>>57268475
Current pools have APRs ranging between 4-6% however, there's an srETH pool that'll be launched soon; the team says it'll be one of the highest paying pools on LSDFi; even more than what's obtainable on Lido rn.

>>57268787
cope thread
they'll buy a couple of thousand bitcoin from miners OTC
no change on market

Bitcoin’s original purpose: to free you from the hellish existence that was created by the financial shenanigans of those with wealth and power

What it’s for today: “Ok so teach me about how ETFs and settlement and T+1 and derivatives, please, I want to be rich and wealthy at the expense of others!!!”

Irony so thick you can slice it with the tears of the og punks who created it

>>57268818
Ever heard of Monero?

>>57268818
>wealthy at the expense of others!!!”
buying an etf doesnt harm others retarded commie.

>>57268818
og punks are still content because we have monero which is not about getting rich but actual principles (and having the freedom to buy drugs online)

BTC is for people trying to become rich
XMR is for the ideologists/og cypherpunks

>>57263551
>doesn't even know who Brad Mills is
lol
lolol even
lololol even

>>57268843
That’s what the bankers said every time as they wiped out other people’s savings

“Eh nobody was really hurt lol lmao”

Every real dollar earned by cashing in gains comes out of someone else’s pockets, it is what it is but that makes you no different from the same bankers who will take randos to the cleaners, nothing personal, lost fairly in a game they didnt know they were playing, no harm done!

how come the etf fund prices arent the same price as bitcoin? shouldnt the etf price be the same as the spot price of bitcoin?

>>57268876
>That’s what the bankers said every time as they wiped out other people’s savings
give me an example of them wiping out someone savings? even in 08 people didnt lose their deposits.

>>57268844

Monero is the only thing that's real.

>>57268899
Lurk more before posting you fucking newfaggot.

>>57263522
>>57263522
obvious bullshit because nothing happened(crab)

>>57269285
how a bout you answer the question you literal bloodtype gay faggot.

>>57268623
>If you really bought BTC at $430, you wouldn't have time to be on here; you'll be on a yacht rn with lots of asses in your face!

i got in at $120 , it doesnt matter how much youv made, its about your love for the tech

>>57270096
i got in at 8$ and sold at 12$

oh well its that ptsd again what i've could become AAHHHHHHHHHH going to liquor store rn to cure my feels

>>57263943
You really think boomers are buying shitcoins for their retirement lol? They like index funds and dividend paying stocks. Not fake money.

>>57270096
Right…. I know someone who got in early and he’s a stunted manchild who still lives on mommy and daddy’s dime because his millions in shitcoin don’t generate income.

>>57270404
they give it to the banks and investment funds and they buy whatever they feel like (gives high returns)

>>57263522
>source: some jeet on Twitter

>>57270456
And I don’t see bitcoin being part of a standard investment portfolio anytime in near future.

I’d shit a brick if my investment advisors bought fucking shitcoin with my money. I want something real that pays me.