/biz/ - Business & Finance

El sneed

>>56378818
cope wagie. if you're worth what you're charging will pay without issue.

>>56378818
You burn the house down milton

I think it's unfortunately one of those trades that feels accessible to people, like "I could have done that" since it's cutting wood and not something mystical like electrical wiring and circuitry. So they don't understand the work and expertise that goes into it.

>>56378818
real answer
stop working for the public and go to work for businesses and governments. Maybe just work for other contractors that are better at collecting top dollar and dealing with complaints.

basically either find customers that don't care about the price because they're writing it off as the cost of doing business, or find ways to never deal with your customers directly, such as subbing for a large general contractor.

best of luck. The wealthiest contractors aren't working for the public. The public sucks.

>>56378869
This. The best answer possible.

We're multiple decades in from switching to a system of debt that has no value and so there are multiple generations of people who have no genuine idea how to barter properly using this arbitrary system of debt. Unironically start charging people in like labor trades or commodities, running a parallel economy.
>Too many variables, not enough golds

>>56378827
low IQ nigger alert

>>56378827
Ok. Go back to pretending you've ever had a job now lol

>>56378818
How do you figure out how much to charge, I wonder. Seems comfy making stuff out of wood.

>>56378869
Good advice. Thanks

>>56378893
>Seems comfy making stuff out of wood.
It's really not.

>>56378893
There's no straight answer. I've asked everyone I know in the same field and have never gotten a consistent answer. Some just say materials x3. Some say 500 per linear foot. Some have complicated formulas. Some just wing it. That has also been a frustration for me. It is nice though if you are selective about the jobs you take up. I've taken way too many weird, niche jobs that ended up being crazy stressful.

>>56378898
>Good advice. Thanks
np
I bought a contracting firm years ago and couldn't figure out why we were charging the general public $25/hr and governments/businesses $125/hr for the same work.

I quickly learned that the public refuses to pay the real costs, so our corporate and government clients got stuck paying the difference.

I dumped our public sector and began not only making far more money, but also never worrying about the supposedly high price. Businesses automatically understand if you charge $150 you're only keeping a fraction of that money after taxes. The average wagie has no clue what a business costs to run.

>>56378941
Any advice on how I, being relatively new as an actual business, would get clients like these?

>>56378818
Post your work anon

>>56378818
>b-bu-but he has a 3 car garage!

he shouldn’t be bitching and neither should you. nothing worse than the blue collar moan.

>>56378955
easiest way is to sub for someone that does commercial work. seriously, they'll pay you top dollar if you do good work, you'll meet their clients, see how they get work, and learn the ropes on commercial contracting.

if you don't want to sub for an existing prime, or there isn't enough work in your market for that, I'd say networking. Go around to local businesses and government offices and hand out business cards or some promotional crap with your name on it to whoever buys maintenance and construction services.

or buy advertising online and in local directories but turn down anything that's not a business or government. That works too.

>>56378955
i'm in materials supply to contractors only. it's one part marketing yourself in an exclusive manner and one part just saying "no." when homeowners ask why you can make up something about taxes and licenses and they'll buy it. you need to go after high-volume work to get the bills paid, then make your money on other pickups. we do cabinets, windows, and doors for a few developments to keep the lights on and make actual money on custom homes with overspecced cabinetry and stupid-wide multislides.

>>56378955
once you've completed a job or two for business or government your name will get passed around pretty fast. After that clients come to you.

Wtf? Never ever have I seen normies complain about an artisan's prices unless the product was shit. Normies will happily give 500 bucks for some crap table.
You probably overcharge even more than the others or your products are garbage. People will happily overcharge for quality and that's a fact

>>56378869
Small business owner here. You're totally right. I only do B2B gigs, I don't even bother responding to retail normies asking for a quote. It's not worth the fucking hassle.

>>56379104
>overcharge
that's relative. I need $225/hr minimum to pay a guy $25/hr to do the work. If he cuts me out of the picture, he still needs $175/hr to get paid $25.
Some mid-level professional making $50/hr is going to be shocked when I charge $225. They'll think I'm overcharging even though I keep almost none of that. The average wagie has no idea what a contractor's overhead and taxes are.

other contractors see me charge $225/hr and all they see is that I'm the lowest bidder and I do good work.. And that's all they care about.

>>56378818
Charge what you're worth anon. Put your foot down.

>>56379061
Thanks a lot man

>>56379162
I will!

>>56379104
I'm not trying to make odds and ends for people anymore. I did that and you're wrong. It's rare people actually will pay for art and to find the ones that will would take way better marketing than I think I'm capable of.

>>56379033
What do you do for work bud? I'm curious.

Blame the Fed, everyone wants spic prices and then wants to cry when they get spic work. Only thing you can do is drop out and accelerate the crash, funny money flows into liquid assets causing a parasitic transfer of resources from illiquid asset holders (labor is a exceptionally illiquid asset) to liquid asset holders

>>56379270
No kidding about the work. My parents got $30,000 of repair work done after mold from a company I advised against and this is what they got.

>>56379270
And

>>56379270
Also

>>56379360
>>56379368
>>56379383
Absolutely dogshit. Thanks for the ragefuel.

>>56379131
Of course, m8. Nobody cares about all the background work and how much that costs. But if you have a good product, that shit will sell itself. I've seen amateur artisans advertise their own shit on facebook, instagram, and so on. You can even print out your own posters or I don't know.
You might wanna start selling at a lower price only to keep increasing as you get some business going on. There are various strategies you can try out.
I still think contractors on average overcharge like hell (I know my fair share of people in these types of trades and just how damn much they are overcharging) but that's just me ranting

>>56379696
Any time lol

>>56378818
>are they retarded?
why dont you just hit em "you get what you pay for" if theyre reasonable people they usually leave it at that. in the opposite corner whenever I request a bespoke order on anything a mechanic or artist they always try to fuck me on completion time, what should I hit them with if I dont have firm dates on a contract?

>>56379360
>>56379368
>>56379383
Yep. My father makes $500k as a senior SWE yet insists on using cheap mexi labor while whining non-stop about the poor quality of the work. Pay shit, get shit. Fucking boomers.

>>56378818
stop talking to boomers

>>56380055
Hmm. Idk man. I always try to keep to my timeline on jobs but sometimes I can't. In either case I ALWAYS keep in contact with the person if I'm working on it off site and give them updates frequently.

>>56378818

Let me tell you something. You gotta charge what it takes to make a profit. You'll find people who will pay, and they will tell their friends when you deliver a superior product. It takes time to build a stake to your name. Keep at it. Always charge what you're worth. Its easy to give a discount after your done, than to come back and ask for more. Overcharge them and discount at the end really builds a good reputation if you truly deliver good work.

>>56378818
it's pretty much already been said but
skip retail. do gov jobs or artisan work. cost plus and then half of the quote upfront for individuals.

non-trades/construction people don't understand how much focused and bespoke work costs. their jobs are things like counting beans and making powerpoints.
it's ikea-brain. their understanding of how things are made amounts to something out of a tolkein book.
people complain the same about plumbers electricians etc then they hire the hacks that are 10% cheaper and complain when the work is shit.

so yeah as others have said: minimize expenses, put your foot down, be firm on prices, and eventually quality work will yield you loyal customers. the stress of bullshit just to keep busy is not worth it at all. those people will not remember you since they value you on the same plane as walmart and Amazon.

>>56378818
Why are tradesmen so angry all the time?

>>56381184
cause women keep jacking up the taxes on tobacco

>>56378818
This post just indicates that you aren't worth as much as you are charging. People do this to me all the time. I don't seethe about it, I just tell them I can't do the job for anything less. If they don't hire me then fine. Doesn't bother me. I'm constantly turning away jobs I don't want to do. There are more than enough people that do want to hire me that will call as soon as the person who undervalued my work walks out the door. If you can't find enough customers willing to pay what you charge it's because you are overestimating your value and charging too much. Seethe if you want but that's how business works.

>>56381290
Or it's because you are worth what you charge but you are lacking in marketing skills. If your phone never rings you will never be able to charge what your work is worth. You were never an option for people looking to hire.

>>56378904
>Tried it once am authority now

Yeah in my experience you have to be willing to walk away. If you give them a price you think is fair and are firm, chances are they will call you back after getting another quote that's more expensive from another contractor. You really have to make it worth your while or like you said you are busting your ass to try and make the job profitable.

>>56381117
Good idea thanks

>>56381290
Your comment tells me you've never been in a difficult situation like me and can't relate like several others here who have given good advice clearly can.

>>56378818
name an example of a product that you sell.

>>56378818

Contractor here.

If you are out bidding jobs, your price should be such that only half the people you talk to say "yes". If every person you talk to says yes you are giving way too low of prices.

>Angry people
And? Fuck them. They want your skills and don't want to pay for it, you say "well it was nice meeting you, good luck with the job.

I always price the job assuming everything is going to go wrong and give me trouble. I imagine that scenario and price it based on that.

>>56379131
Best posts on biz by far, much appreciated. What you shared is actually applicable to other industries too, especially the part about working with contractors who are good at the pricing/collecting/client-facing part. Thanks anon. Seems biz is not totally dead yet.

>>56382683
thanks. We seem to have a batch of real businessmen itt.
It's nice to see. Like the old /biz/ days.

>>56379104
>Normies will happily give 500 bucks for some crap table
$500 can't even pay me to wipe my ass. Especially for something that's handmade.
/biz/ really is just a board full of pajeets

>>56378827
/thread

>>56381146
>how much focused and bespoke work costs
It's literally the same for the white collar workers who actually do anything. Being a design engineer is suffering. You're doing work for five layers of absolute fucking idiots who make up requirements based on how they're feeling that day. Then we get grilled on why shit is taking so long. They just have no clue because from their perspective, it's all magic wand make believe. That's all they do all day. At least we get paid well for babysitting the spoiled brats.

>>56383194
I'll admit it's not the most fair distinction. i should use something more pointed like pmc or hr but those are only 2 large elements of a greater whole.
and i feel ya for sure. design in particular is not easy though as someone who's been on the receiving end(maintenance&repair) there's a huge difference between good work and checked boxes.
and yeah this is a thought I've been mulling over is basically the one upside of being a mechanic/fabricator. any time I'm drawn into office politics I'm not bound by office dialogue rules. i can say pretty much whatever i want its a moderately unaprecciated upside for sure.
however,
it comes with the territory esp when you're doing shit that uses all the muscles in your body which means high T exposure on the reg.

>>56383194
it's not an exact fit but i have heard of swe friends having much less political trouble at work after they made significant muscle gains. make of that what you will

>>56378818
Know your place wagie. Stop trying to rip off homeowners. Learn to be thankful instead of resentful.

Do jobs in rich areas or farmland, people who don't know how to work will always jew

>>56383581
Shut it anon.
You are not a bank. You are a lessor.
Why do you suppose they call you that?

>>56378818
>How do I find people who will actually pay for what they want?
You need to charge even more. Any luxury goods business knows this. You charge absurd amounts. Your profit margin should be 400-600%. Make sure you have a showroom or online listings that highlight your prices so that your customers know what to expect up front; this will filter all the morons looking to get a "deal". Don't fall for the trap of lowing prices to drive up business. You will just end up doing more work for less income.

>>56384772
by this logic the deal people are right though, if everyone just inflates price without also equally increasing the value of the product, youre literally just buying overpriced garbage

>>56384819
"what is the todays market for 500, jerry."

>>56378933
There is actually a very easy method to figure out what to charge.

First you must determine operational costs.

You need to know what the value of each tool you own. This is the purchase cost. Then you need to anticipate the term you will use the tool. I would say 1 year. (you will obviously use them longer, but this will make the example easy to follow)

Now divide the total tool investment by 365 and that is your daily tool rate.

Now you need to know how much it costs to use your vehicle each day. So total purchase cost (including insurance and everything else like fuel and regular maintenance) divided by how long you plan to keep the vehicle.

Now you need to know how much it costs you to travel between home/shop to your jobsite. Windshield time is a hidden cost that new
companies always lose on. So track how far you travel and get an average. Just like calculating your MPG you will calculate how much it costs you to drive to work daily.

Take all three of those and add them together. Now add what you need to pay yourself and add a small amount daily to build in profit.

You want to build in everything. Materials will fluctuate in cost but get an average of that as well and break it down like everything else to a daily rate.

Add everything together and divide by 8 and you have your hourly rate and daily rate. Expense recovery built in with your overhead covered as well. You even have a guaranteed buffer built in.

Knowing how much it costs for your to conduct business is extremely important and powerful. Now you have the ability to talk pricing intelligently with the public and tell them to pound sand if needed, all before you start.

>>56378818
>Trades
What area are you working in? What is the prevailing wage in that area?

>>56378869
Throwing in my 2 cents to say this anon has good advice. The public fucking sucks because it's a bunch of retarded normalfags with no actual money. They have mortgages, credit cards that are run up, car payments, etc. They'd sooner shell out for a new TV than carpentry work.

Hey anon, if you don't mind, I'd like to get your advice/thoughts. I'm an IT worker who dreams of quitting once I save up $1mil and doing some type of woodworking full-time. Right now I make my own furniture, and generally I think I'm getting advanced in that area.

Is there any specific area of woodworking/carpentry that you would recommend I look into to make a living? Any books, courses, etc. that you would recommend?

Thanks.

>>56382683

/biz/ is comfy when the jeets are gone

>>56378869
good advice on /biz/
I'll be damned

To the contractor thinking about working for businesses, keep in mind that there is also a bunch of hoops you usually have to jump through.

Depending on the nature of the job, they usually only deal with subcontractors, not individual skilled tradespeople individually. You may be required to review their Scope of Work document, or participate in their RFP, then prepare a Proposal that will have you jumping through hoops. There's also a bunch of corporate requirements they usually have, like due diligence questionnaires, insurance requirements, etc.

Buyers will then try to negotiate rates with you and Operations folks will boss you around to meet targets. If you've already bid on a Lump Sum basis and signed a contract, then you're committed to do the project or face penalties (terms and conditions that most contracts will have will usually favor the business interests).

And finally, getting paid can sometimes be a hassle. Lots of businesses pay Net 60, so you have to be able to have a financial cushion to live off of while you're managing your own operating expenses.

Just wanted to provide a full picture

>t. Services Sourcing Manager for major mining company

>>56378818
People don't appreciate the value of good woodworking.

"That's nice! I'd pay a hundred dollars for something like that!"

Wood along cost 125.00. They have no idea.

>>56378869
Hell. you could mass produce little bric-a-brac stuff and sell it at craft sales and make more money than by doing fine woodwork.

>>56378818
only a redditor would complain about having to negotiate. those fags are afraid of all confontration and cry about it on reddit

>>56387355
>MSHA/OSHA classes every year
>pay your liability insurance every month
>pay our workman's comp every month
>pay your taxes every quarter
>pay your employee's taxes every quarter
>generate safety plans, emergency response plans, other required compliance documents once and update them every year or two
>have equal opportunity plan on file
>register with D&B, SAM, CCR once, update annually.
>get a business license once a year
It's a lot of crap, but once you've done it one time you're either done with it or it's no big deal.

also of course that's what the $200/hour is for. Once you've actually done the work, you then get to go do the paperwork.

>>56387355
>t. Services Sourcing Manager for major mining company
I'm one of your vendors.
There isn't a major in the west I haven't worked for

negotiating prices and bossing people around to meet targets pretty much never happens in my experience unless you suck at meeting deadlines.
safety and compliance in mining is a full time thing though.

>>56387355
>negotiate rates
only times I've ever had a client try to negotiate a bid is when I'm not the low bidder but they really want my firm doing the work anyways. I usually offer to write up a detailed justification of my bid and if that doesn't work I walk away.
I didn't go into business to work for cheapskates.
>getting paid can sometimes be a hassle. Lots of businesses pay Net 60,
this is true. But on the flip side you go from making $30/hour one $3k jobs to making hundreds an hour on million dollar projects. So getting that 60-90 days worth of income set aside is much easier.
There's also the fact that some jobs you won't get paid at all, either through your own fault or because of a problem with the client. Over the years I've lost millions to clients going bankrupt or markets crashing. But you have to make enough to cover your losses, which is also much easier to do in corporate or government contracting. For every million I've lost, I made 5. And losses are priced in.

>>56379383
NOTHING A LIL BID O COLCK WONT FIX
*shit eating grin*

>>56387355
>keep in mind that there is also a bunch of hoops you usually have to jump through.
legally OP should already be jumping through most of those hoops anyways.

working for the public you can usually get away with breaking the law in ways businesses and governments won't allow. But eventually even the small businesses that don't want all that red tape manage to get sued or busted for noncompliance anyways. It's a good idea to do all the same stuff the big boys do even if nobody checks it. It'll price you out of all the small jobs for stingy individuals, but that's a good thing for OP from the sound of it. Operating out of compliance kills off a shitload of self-employed and small contractors over time.

>>56387355
Lol this is so true, over a year later and I'm still waiting on a client I subbed for to payout the final 10-15%

>>56388754
Yep. I got a client right now that owes me $20k for work done last year. It was a $200k job though so I don't really care. Next time they ask me for a bid I'm just going to tack what they owe me on top and then add another 10% for stuff I know they're not going to pay.

>>56378818
80 20 rule op, you concentrate on the customers who are willing to gladly pay your prices and cut the rest to make time and energy to find more customers who are willing to pay and or just to eliminate the stress and free up time energy to do whatever u want.. Brian Tracy talks about this in one of his books
... more of this guys and less crypto shit please thanks

>>56378818
I manage a lot for our subcontracting company doing concrete and asphalt work. We do about $6M a year. The vast majority of our work is for general contractors, both private and public work. We do most of our business with the same GC's, and just submit bids for whatever project they're trying to get. Working with general contractors is great, but the cash flow is terrible, especially for prevailing wage jobs.
>accumulate costs and payroll starting at the beginning of the month
>bill at the end of the month
>get paid at the end of the next month if you're lucky
>probably end up getting paid 60 days after billing
>withhold 10% retention, or 5% if public works. takes like 6-12 months to actually receive retention money
Still, it's probably better than running around looking at small jobs and giving them an estimate they'll most likely reject, but at least the turnover is quick.

>>56384509
cope and seethe traddie. you will always be lower middle class and you know it. now step back in line and lower your tone.