/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>56313364
I like this thread. Bitcoin and Monero should get along more. No more brother wars.

>>56313376
Both achievements are embarrassingly underappreciated. Crypto has killed the middleman. Now we can verify transactions are legit without a middleman. The fact its so underappreciated means it has much to still grow. Only when it is appreciated and stable at a rediciulous valuation may the normies appreciate what it has done. And it will still be a deflationary store of value that cant be fucked with by fiat middlemen, and still save people from predatory finance. Historical technical achievements.

>>56313364
The problem with L2 for Bitcoin is that it is going to be Venmo 2.0. We already see that the most used apps are custodial and centralized. There is no sign of this trend stopping. Inevitably, if Bitcoin is used on a scale where L2 is the only way to conceivably use Bitcoin, then people won't even onboard to Bitcoin's baselayer, leading to further censorship.

>>56313420
I think being Venmo 2.0 on a global decentralized scale where all fiat is answerable to Bitcoin is enough of an achievement. The custodial and centralization can be avoided by using the base layer, or by using Monero. Whichever one your gov is less likely to kill you with.

>>56313435
>all fiat is answerable to Bitcoin is enough of an achievement
This is where you aren't being rational. The average person doesn't care about crypto. There is no reason why they would want to use Bitcoin instead of fiat (credit cards, venmo, cash app). What incentive do they have to adopt a highly volatile currency instead of dollars? There is none. And that is why the adoption we see today in cryptocurrency is almost exclusively speculative. Just look at lightning network adoption today after 7 years. It's complete shit.
>The custodial and centralization can be avoided by using the base layer
Nope. Transaction fees would be completely fucked if worldwide adoption would occur. Bitcoin was basically unusable for a week because of meme ordinals.
The only purpose Lightning has is to lead to centralization. It's complete garbage.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

>>56313468
The average person indeed doesn't care about crypto. When they do many years from now, it will be from the different obvious reasons. It is a digital gold, generational wealth preservation tool. Instead of holding fiat which loses 99.9% of its value over its life, or having to invest in its derivatives to get a return, simply use bitcoin. LN remains an option to avoid transaction fees though the meme shitcoin mania also seemed to be a good thing for bitcoin overall even if the users were stupid. It was never unuseable for its core purpose. People who hold it for 10 years before selling can manage the fees carefully when they are ready. Keeping L1 as portable as possible helps the decentralization cause, and the users recognize and have voted in the past when BCH was forked off.
>all fiat is answerable to Bitcoin
It remains a hedge against governments endlessly printing fiat. You simply can't print more bitcoin. Scary Scarcity.

>>56313364
Monero sucks and won't make you money

>>56313617
>When they do many years from now
doubt. they will just eat whatever goyslop is made for them (cbdcs).
If Lightning Network does "succeed" it will be completely selling out all the ideals that make Bitcoin great.
>Instead of holding fiat which loses 99.9% of its value over its life, or having to invest in its derivatives to get a return, simply use bitcoin
Most people don't invest. They'll just use cbdcs because they will get all of their gibs with it, or if they hear about Bitcoin they will buy it like a tech stock like has already been seen. Plus, Bitcoin is way more volatile than fiat. As a speculative asset, it has been less than stellar in recent years and tech stocks are out performing it.
This fantasy of people embracing Bitcoin over what the government endorses is just not at all realistic. Just look at how people reacted during Covid.
>People who hold it for 10 years before selling can manage the fees carefully when they are ready
yeah, just hold on to Bitcoin for 10 years and then it is usable.
>You simply can't print more bitcoin
you can fractional reserve lend it

>>56313420
this will sound like a shill but I don't think BTC needs to rely on a native L2, there will be trustless bridges to sufficently decentralized EVM chains where it can be traded and spent at low cost

>>56313767
Its useable immediately, it can take years for a deflationary plan to come together if it is inflated enough.
>If Lightning Network does "succeed" it will be completely selling out all the ideals that make Bitcoin great.
Its an OPTION. Like say coinbase and circle wanted to transact. They can have lightning network for those transactions. It is completely optional, but for users already using CEX you can have lightning as a background integration. Again all LN is optional and second to BTC core purpose of being a generational wealth tool.

>>56313364

>>56313894
>it’s a subtle joke that Bitcoin users would use a rocket purchased on a Monero darknet in order to travel to the moon

>>56313908
>picrel: me reading this post and seeing none of this has nothing to do with Chainlink

>>56313646
>money is supposed to make you more money
Take your meds retard

>>56313809
>BTC core purpose of being a generational wealth tool.
As soon as the gov lays eyes upon your btc account and start taxing you for whatever they want, like heritage tax, this rhetoric is going to die pretty quickly.

>>56313921
chainlink is nearly useless bro

>>56313809
What's bitcoin again? A peer-to-peer something... ah yes a peer-to-peer generational wealth tool! Hahahahahaha

>>56313364
BTC and XMR are the only two assets in the entire market that matter, the rest are all money grab print out of thin air scams.

>>56315191
Always has been.gif
Also ur shit Seems out of date?

>>56316073
It's evergreen.

>>56313364
>>56313376
>>56313419
>>56313420
>Monero
1. Monero depends on Bitcoin: delisted from almost every exchange, you can either mine it or trade it via local localmonero. The other way is via BTC <> XMR atomic swaps.
2. Privacy has its disadvantages: The supply can't be properly audited which puts Monero in position for inflation bugs that could very well kill it.
3. Adoption: there can't be adoption without SOME government help. And so far no state has signaled the slightest intention of using Monero. Quite the opposite.
4. Achilles heel: If by some miracle someone breaks Monero, XMR will be worthless since its entire value comes from its privacy.

>>56313646
>Monero sucks and won't make you money
Monero is the money retard. We aren't in this shit to dump on people to get fiat.

>>56313364
>>56313376
>>56313419
>>56313420
Perhaps Bitcoin can scale when you consider that not every person on earth has to transact on the network. There are 8 billion people on Earth, of which maybe 5 billion have the opportunity to make transactions because we can disregard infants, children, old demented people, etc. Of these 5 billion people many share a household together, being brought together by either mariage or friendship or family. In these circumstances where trust is not an issue, federated mints may be used. Assuming 5 people per household, this means Bitcoin need only scale to 1/8 of the world's population.

Tl;dr
1. Bitcoin
2. Lightning
3. Chaumian mints

>>56317627
The other problem with Monero is its record of hard forks. No digital currency that hard forks will ever get adopted for obvious reasons.

If it's not that obvious imagine the chain splits over night and nodes must decide which is the real XMR. These nodes may be merchants, individuals, corporations, banks, gubbamin, etc. How would they reach consensus on which is the real XMR? What if it's contested? You think there's room for two currencies? It sets a bad precedent. Imagine if the US monetary system forked today causing the appearance of a second US dollar. Can you imagine the effect it would have on the markets? You'd have problems sleeping at night if you were to hold a digital currency that is at risk of hard forking.

>>56313767
>If Lightning Network does "succeed" it will be completely selling out all the ideals that make Bitcoin great.
LN takes all these ideals and carries them off-chain. You have to understand that some concessions must be done. Bigger blocks will help Bitcoin scale, but then the size of the blockchain will grow so fast that you would need specialized hardware to run a node, which kills decentralization. If there are fewer nodes, then you leave the door open to censorship and hijacking via development.

>>56317692
>How would they reach consensus on which is the real XMR?
We literally have almost a decade of hard forks to show you exactly how the consensus is never controversial. Unlike Bitcoin, skepticism is encouraged among people who use monero.
As for adoption, moneros adoption has steadily grown and mogs lightning network.
>>56317830
>LN takes all these ideals and carries them off-chain
Lmao. It's venmo 2.0 you fucking retard. Why are all the most popular lightning wallets custodial?
>but then the size of the blockchain will grow so fast that you would need specialized hardware to run a node, which kills decentralization. If there are fewer nodes
Literally not even true. Monero for example could handle Bitcoins current daily transactions right now. Block chain size is nowhere near the problem you think it is.

>>56317885
The consensus is ultimately always "what the devs say", a fairly significant point of centralization given the Monero codebase won't stabilize any time soon.

>>56317885
1. Half a decade means nothing
2. You're lying with regards to adoption. Open youtube and look for anyone making purchases with XMR. This will lead you to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ0e6SFi3XU

It's the only video showcasing use of XMR that's why I mention it, but there's a plot twist! He's not paying with Monero, but rather trading XMR for a gift card. You can even hear the customer asking "I can pay with a gift card, right?". There you have it, the only proof of muh adoption is some guy trading XMR for a gift card and then using the gift card to trade for ice cream. It's not even using Monero.
3. Plenty of videos of people making purchases directly via BTC+LN using non-custodial wallets.
https://youtube.com/shorts/jYJ150dFYy8?feature=shared

Show me even a single video of someone actually purchasing anything with XMR, and I'll show you dozens with Lightning. Be a man and accept my challenge.
4. Venmo has nothing in common with LN, wtf are you high? Go on, elaborate. Show us how little you know.
5. Of course block chain size is no issue for Monero, reason being: it's only half a decade old with no one really using it. Look what happens to a chain that's actually used and with dynamic block size: https://ycharts.com/indicators/ethereum_chain_full_sync_data_size

1.2TB and growing. How can you expect casual people to run nodes? Eventually only companies with specialized hardware will be able to run it. Might as well run a centralized MySQL database lol.

Monero is a nice experiment but you're clearly a baggie.

>>56317649
You sir. are a charlatan who lost his life savings on ebeaniebabies

>>56313767
>government is omnipotent!
Dullard. State is wholly subordinate to Economy, politics is largely meaningless even on a single human lifetime and becomes merely noise on multigenerational timescales. Notice gold has functioned as a perfect -1x of fiat over the last 50 years despite central banks wish to destroy such simple means of wealth preservation, BTC is even better than gold as it's a much more practical money, and never forget that BTC has existed now for 25% of pure fiat USD's life, fiat is the abnormally, not hard money, fiat shall pass as it always does

>>56319987
So BTC?

>>56319738
>Half a decade means nothing
And? 14 years of Bitcoin is also nothing.
>. You're lying with regards to adoption
Except literally any website that publishes stats showing Lightning Network usage with Monero tells a different story.
Coincards: https://twitter.com/CoinCards/status/1709306835126386976
ShopinBit: https://twitter.com/shopinbit/status/1540378348932763653
Silent Link: https://twitter.com/silentlink1/status/1706449174303064088
The funniest is this report about Lightning network which attempts to hype up the overall usage: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/the-state-of-lightning-network-adoption
"The $20 million estimate for payment volume in one month, $240 million annualized, pales in comparison to Bitcoin’s on-chain monthly volume of $963 billion in February 2022, $11.56 trillion annualized."
And mind you, this is from an article that is a literal fluff piece.
Of course, the largest free market reliant on p2p cryptocurrency, the dark nets, have also shown that they now prefer Monero. None of them use Lightning Network. Not a single one. I don't need to post some faggot influencer on video when I have actual data.
Hell, Mental Outlaw posted a video yesterday about using Monero, and he is the biggest tech youtuber today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G47l75lhCkI
>Venmo has nothing in common with LN,
How you can even say this with a straight face is pure cope. why are the most popular wallets all custodial anon? tell me about the chivo wallet that totally wasn't cucked. LN takes Bitcoin from an uncensorable base and puts it into regulated channels where 99% of the network activity will be kyc abiding. Use your brain for once.
>. Look what happens to a chain that's actually used and with dynamic block size
Ethereum is completely different than Monero, and regardless, 1.2tb is nothing are you fucking retarded lmao.
>>56319987
when did i say that the government is omnipotent?

>>56320191
>Of course, the largest free market reliant on p2p cryptocurrency, the dark nets, have also shown that they now prefer Monero
Dark nets are a meaningless metric in terms of adoption. Face it, Monero is too privacy-oriented to ever see mainstream adoption. Any digital currency needs to be approved by world economies, whether you like this or not. You do live in a civilized society, right? You didn't build the roads, the sewage system, the water filtration plants, the electric grid, telecommunications infrastructure, hospitals, supply chains and so on, correct? So you entirely depend on the state to continuously build and maintain infrastructure which you use daily. States and governments have the upper hand, again this may not be to your liking but it's a fact of life. If this were Fallout, maybe Monero had a chance. But for as long as governments are still standing, they get to say what's currency and what's not. You have to be a fool to think otherwise. Bitcoin's pseudo transparency helps it in this regard, because it would give states some "peace of mind" as most users will be too dumb to hide their traces via CoinJoins and other privacy methods.

>>56320274
Black markets will always exist. How many trillions of dollars represent today's black market? Are you implying that need will go away in the future?
What about avoiding taxation? Over time crypto taxes will get worse and more regulated, won't there be people looking to maximize their profits in this manner? Or how about avoid divorce rape? Or donating money to a political cause that will lose you social credit points?
I think getting fixated on mainstream adoption is missing the point entirely. Monero is a valuable tool and it should be studied and used. If all of crypto is attacked by government that is a different topic, but if Bitcoin exists so will the need for Monero.
>Dark nets are a meaningless metric in terms of adoption.
It's one of the only cryptocurrency markets that is actually dependent on cryptocurrency. Dnms would be down overnight without them.

>makes both obsolete
kek

>>56320274
>Bitcoin's pseudo transparency
lmfao
>hide their traces via CoinJoins and other privacy methods.
lmfao x2

>>56320191
You're posting relies on the thesis that the State controls the world "They'll just use cbdcs because they will get all of their gibs with it", diseased statist top down worldview. In reality oligarchs are parasites, and the history of the world is Economy squeezing them out of existence.

>>56320432
>2 more weeks: the coin

>>56320274
WTF is this argument ? If the state should be in control, then bitcoin's not going to make it either.

But monero, not like bitcoin, is used to bypass government's crypto.

So monero through privacy has the only real usecase, bitcoin's worthless shit

>>56313364
No trolling.
I love and own both.
Imo the main problem with XMR is the huge transactions size compared to BTC. This is needed for ring signatures, but also means the chain can grow out of control especially since block size is not capped. XMR works well now mainly because it is still very niche, it wouldn't scale well if it had BTC level transaction volume.

>>56320274
Here you see a garden type bitcoin maxi sucking the weiner of the all powerful government. What it does not realize is that it is about to be cucked by Klaus and his 33 inch schlong.

>>56320767
Uh yeah states do control the world. And most normies go along with what they say. How the hell do you think I'm a "statist" for saying this? Obviously we can use cryptocurrency as a tool to fight back and it's one reason why monero is so important.

>>56320857
They're really not much bigger

>>56320857
No harm in holding both anon, although BTC has the larger market cap. More reason why its my major hold, I also store in an AA wallet with 2FA for the long term.