/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>56120725
I hate this board. Everyone asks generic-as-fuck questions and never goes in-depth with it.

The principles of FIRE / lean FIRE are these:
> get a good paying job
> save everything
> lower your burn rate / COL
> retire once you can support your low COL on 2-4% of your savings

Lean FIRE has nothing to do with "making it", it's hitting sustainability. I will venture to say that you can try to "make it" once you are retired.

So is it a meme? Depends on what you mean. You do give up your 20s and maybe 30s, and even then, you probably can't do it on 100k and need a FAANG job.

Here is a FIRE failure story:
https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/

Why can't this board just not be shit.

>>56120725
For the NEET incels here? Absolutely yes it is. Make sure to report back to wage cage on Monday anon

>>56120810
Well here are some reasons it's a meme
1) You pursue a pointless rabbit hole that gives up your youth just to live like a lower-middle-class person just to not "work". Something the average minority can do already on welfare without giving up decades of their life hustling, let alone trying. The point of wealth should be to have a high cash flow and a large surplus in savings for sanity reasons and to get the most out of life.
2) Once you achieve enough to not work, you realize retirement is boring. Most people who retire end up falling into depression as they lose purpose. This is why most rich people continue working on business ventures until they die. It keeps things interesting and affords them the lifestyle to travel, start projects, and experience new things without worrying so much about limitations.
3) Inflation is likely to fuck anyone that hits lean FIRE. You'd have to at least hit fat FIRE, but then again, stopping work altogether gets depressing, especially if you just kept your nose done the whole time and didn't make any impact on the world and neglected life experiences/relationships all throughout. Chances are if you go from hermit cheapskates dude, to "free", you'll just continue to live the same way as you never developed the lifestyle you wanted.
4) Overall a form of escapism to avoid genuine personal growth. People are better off just finding a better job or building a business they enjoy for a quality, rich life.

>>56120841
These NEETs usually live depressing lives. See point #2 and #4. They have no purpose besides consoom. They are better off than wagies trying to hustle through their youth to "escape", but it's not a good life IMO. Although it can be a happy life if disciplined, but most are not, otherwise they would at least build the income in something they enjoy to get more out of their lives.

>>56120880
People who need work to generate purpose in their life I am convinced are some kind of non sentient organism

>>56120880
>hermit is...LE BAD
>work is...LE GOOD

>>56120909
>>56120927
What's the purpose of your life? Work doesn't mean wage slaving, but building something and ideally something that affords you the things you want. For me that would be traveling, living where I want, dumping money into my hobbies, helping my family/friends, good healthcare, good food etc.

>>56120880
>lose purpose

Oh no, my labor is not being STOLEN anymore by my employer, I'm SO DEPRESSED

>>56120725
There's gotta be a way to escape right? I'm 22, work out religiously and plan to indefinitely to max the time I can spend in my youth, as well as the time I can spend capable and independent. I have like 20k between bank and crypto.

Maybe something like buying and RV and living out of that instead of rent or mortgage cucking? And then I could just sell petty amounts of drugs while fucking tight young pussy. Idk man, I deserve better than the shitshow I was handed. My parents had me as a retirement plan and have all these stupid dreams, but fuck them honselty, I just wanna be free, including of their expectations.
>>56120935
Art mein nigga, I desire to be a skilled artist that can match Michelangelo.

>>56120954
you could just build out your own business. Even something small that's sustainable. Or at least get a very tolerable job and enjoy your life outside of that without the retiring escapism

>>56120935
>traveling, living where I want
Lol. Lmfao

>>56120974
>Art mein nigga, I desire to be a skilled artist that can match Michelangelo.
What have you made so far? Someone like Michaelangelo was extremely talented at artistic expression and even as a kid everyone told him he should focus on that. These people also luck out being in the right place, right time where rich people/families will live vicariously through them and pay for all their shit.

>>56120994
lmao try it. It's fun seeing new cities, sailing the world, and going to top events worldwide, instead of coping on the internet all-day

>>56120810
>Here is a FIRE failure story:
>https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/
Fucking LMAO what a retard
Why would you rely on your woman sticking around

>>56120725
Yeah. It all depends on green line go up which depends on demographics that simply will not be there by the time most of us on this board (assuming 20s-early 30s) are in our 60s and 70s. By the 2050s/2060s making money on money is going to be a lot harder, most likely. How much harder? nobody really knows. Finding out you need more money 30 years into your 50 year retirement where you've been sitting around relaxing and not building skills is probably going to be much shittier than working longer and retiring later.

Basically in order to retire early you should make sure you have a lot more than you think you're going to need unless you want to risk having to get back into the job market in your 60s. Also you're not exactly hitting the retire part and suddenly the frugality you were burdening yourself with throughout your youth goes by the wayside. for FIRE to work for most people you need to continue living pretty frugally. Unless you make a shitload of money you're not going to be going on tons of vacations. For most people your late 40s-early 60s are peak earning years and with FIRE you're effectively cutting those out of your life.

>>56121001
Nothing great, but I feel a desire to give my all to something, and art seems like a good choice. I have other less grand goals like just having fun, but it all comes down to chance in the end. I should just enjoy what I can and not stress too much, but also try and escape the wage slavery if I can.

No one answered my question though. Taking the rv pill seems like a clever way to escape the jewry of modern day life

Gambling on shitcoins and ODing on copium is a much better way to live. FIRE is for plebbitors. I am gonna make it and I will be happy.

>>56121100
Yeah, pretty much this. I'm not retiring until I at least hit $10M. The funny thing is you can certainly enjoy your work and not even feel like retiring. A lot of anons on 4chan have no discipline or only worked wage slave jobs, but if you work either a comfy office job or run your own business to a point where it's sustainable, you can live a very enjoyable life and don't have to live frugally. if you keep working, you're likely to make even more and enjoy more control of your time. When running a business, you can also outsource more of the work as you get more efficient, effectively just managing those under you. I personally do this and just write off all the travel/meals/most of my rent, so I get to keep most of the income anyway. I know other business dudes slaving away to stop altogether, but I'm in no rush. There's a reason why so many old rich dudes just keep building their businesses, it's a lot of fun, especially if you keep hobbies on the side. Probably would focus 100% on art if I were to hit $10M though, like this anon - >>56120974. The only issue with doing it in reverse is 99% of "artists" make bullshit and not Michaelangelo masterpieces in order to pay the bills. The only exceptions are trust fund kids or true prodigies recognized by rich dudes, which are basically indirect trust fund kids at that point

>>56120725
>Is FIRE (Financial Independence/Retire Early) a meme?
Yes, but Finance, Insurance and Real Estate is not.

>>56120725
Yeah cuz who the fuck needs money at 45. You need it in your 20s and 30s when you still want to do things and see things and have sex with people you meet traveling, fuck saving every last penny until you are old. It's fucking retarded

>>56121136
its not worth it. I know youre thinking that the nomad life is going to be cool (we all had that thought at some point) but after a while it becomes inconvenient. cramped space, having people over is awkward, youre still going to have to pay money in fuel and maintenance costs. its alright if youre living in a van which you parked on some land you own, otherwise its not worth it.

>>56121013
I wouldnt mind you "I like to travel" types if you werent so passive aggressive at the slightest hint of criticism.

>>56120725
only if you're europoor

>>56121185
yeah people here vastly overstate how bad work is. It does suck to be a bottom tier wagie but if you invest in yourself, get some credentials and get a job that has decent advancement prospects it's really not hard to ladder climb. In 5 years I went from making $35k/year at a low end government job to over $80k in a specialized clerical position. I work maybe half my stated hours and have improved every single metric the agency cares about year over year.

>>56120810
Thankfully ChatGPT exists to summarize that long winded shitty blog post.
Yeah, volatility can happen and there's no such thing as a perfect plan.
Some people should probably consider other things they can do like partial retirement where they keep some kind of side job for a more stable income stream for said volatility.
Additionally having some structure and responsibility at least insofar as having a commitment to show up to something and be presentable in appearance can be beneficial for some people.
I got laid off from work for a couple months because I refused to take the vax and it just gets so boring, especially during the winter where the days are shorter, darker, and colder.
Maybe another alternative to consider is just taking some extended time off like 3-12 months.
Maybe a seasonal job is another alternative so you're kind of just forced to only work X months then take the rest of the year off.
At the end of the day there's lots of ways to make a general concept more tailored to one's individual needs/preferences especially as they change over time.

>>56121050
His bitch of a wife wanted to keep up with her friends. Instead of realizing she is the one to be jealous of, she wanted to work and spend on useless shit, what a retarded cunt.

>>56121254
>I wouldnt mind you "I like to travel" types if you werent so passive aggressive at the slightest hint of criticism.
What's the argument against it? It's a really fun hobby. Never met a wealthy person that didn't travel a lot, especially since it's an easy tax write-off for business owners.
>>56121269
yeah, I used to work a comfy gov job. There was very good job security, and most of the time we didn't do anything at all, had a bunch of friends my age we would shoot the shit half the day, and often the other half I'd scroll on 4chan or build out projects to make it look like I cared. We even got sent out to projects around the world and got to enjoy per diem/extra pay while doing almost nothing. Certainly, a decent life if you fill it with hobbies and maybe aspire to something bigger on the side. I would still say working your own thing mogs it as the LLC/S-corp + RE lets you write off so much as business expenses.

>>56121331
>>56121050
Women are incapable of FIRE, it requires independent thought

>>56120725
Yes, my life has improved immensely since going FIRE. I did not finish college and instead left to work on web startups. I saved up my money and invested it into stocks over the years. 2 years ago I finally was able to retire when I married a wealthy woman and her income is more than enough to support us so I went FIRE. I now spend most of my time traveling, teaching my son, and am in charge of investing her income. She earns 300k+ per year so it was more than enough for me to retire early.

>>56121433
>2 years ago I finally was able to retire when I married
>teaching my son
You mean step-son right?

>>56120880
>1) You pursue a pointless rabbit hole that gives up your youth just to live like a lower-middle-class person just to not "work".
I'm already used to living a lower-middle-class lifestyle, spending money on things doesn't bring me joy, I'm content enough with what I have, saving money is just a bonus.
>2) Once you achieve enough to not work, you realize retirement is boring.
Only for boring people with 0 ambition and 0 goals.
>3) Inflation is likely to fuck anyone that hits lean FIRE. You'd have to at least hit fat FIRE
This is retarded, someone spending 30k/year doesn't have to save $5 million to retire. Even if they had none of it invested, that's enough to last them 100+ years. Even with it invested into the safest shit with returns as low as 2%, they'll never even draw down the principal.
>4) Overall a form of escapism to avoid genuine personal growth
Maybe for some people with 0 ambition. My job prevents me from growing my own business because it eats up all my energy and motivation. I was in the hospital for 3 weeks and immediately after I recovered I was super-productive working on my own business, I've never been so motivated. Then I had to go back to work and my productivity plummeted, all my free time became spent recovering until I have to go back to work. There's too much risk trying to quit my job and try to start my business while living off my savings, but if I reached FIRE it would enable me to give it a real shot. Fortunately I'm about 5 years or another bullrun away from FIRE, so it won't be long now.

>>56121341
no argument against it, it does seem like a fine thing to do if you can. just dont like the attitude of some of the people who do so. they act all worldly and sophisticated and shit, its obnoxious

>>56121331
>she is the one to be jealous of
not with lean fire. they had to live with almost nothing

>>56121635
>$1 million in the bank
oh boo hoo. comparison is the thief of joy, women are fucking stupid

>>56121502
>0 ambition and 0 goals
Well, most people want to retire because it's their end-all-be-all goal to just do nothing. If someone actually had goals, they wouldn't need to "retire" before starting them. Literally can just live with parents, or collect welfare, or change to a comfy job and start the band, or the business or the art project or the youtube channel etc.
Usually just cope to avoid personal development and getting out of one's comfort zone.
>>56121511
>no argument against it, it does seem like a fine thing to do if you can. just dont like the attitude of some of the people who do so. they act all worldly and sophisticated and shit, its obnoxious
very fair point. To me, it's just a net positive to help you understand the world better and it's rare if ever anyone regrets doing it assuming they can afford it.

>>56120725
No. it's possible if you make enough money and are frugal as fuck. generally people who retire early have investments or own businesses that provide income that increases over time

my investments cover about 6 months of expenses. stock market has been good to me.

>>56120880
> you realize retirement is boring
only if you have a limited range of interests, IMO. if you retire you get to choose what you do instead of your boss.

>>56122068
You don’t get to choose what you want to do if your interest cost money.
For example I can only spend so much time at the gym and I can only shoot so much ammo before it starts getting expensive.
Most hobbies have an inherent cost associated with them

>>56120725
Kind of. "Retire Early" is late 30's/early 40's in FIRE. Anything shorter than that falls into the get rich quick (never) camp. I think it's better to focus on cash-flowing your desired lifestyle and then actively working to minimize the amount of work you need to do to generate that income. Look at all the remote workers who do like 15 hours of work a week.

No. It's just socially acceptable NEETdom.

>>56122209
>Look at all the remote workers who do like 15 hours of work a week.
Yeah, remote is better than most wagies, but to me it's risky to rely on employers. Seen a lot of people cruise on a remote job, only to be ordered back into office or fired. I'd personally say it best for someone to figure out working their own business and just sustain that enough to afford their lifestyle, then outsource the work to minimize their involvement

>>56122022
>If someone actually had goals, they wouldn't need to "retire" before starting them.
To start them sure, but to put the proper time and effort to make them successful? Nah, I'm in this position right now and I can't put in the right amount of effort between a fulltime job, and I would have to make massive risks and sacrifices if I gave it my all before I FIRE.
>Literally can just live with parents, or collect welfare, or change to a comfy job and start the band, or the business or the art project or the youtube channel etc.
Parents would charge me market rate rent to live with them, and I'd lose all privacy. Maybe if you have good parents this would be ideal.
Collecting welfare is like 7.5k/year, and you can only get it if you have 0 money, would have to live with roommates, and couldn't afford to maintain a car. Good luck trying to grow a business with no money if your computer breaks kek this is a dogshit path. Who wants to abandon a 100k/year job, live off their savings in the hopes of being successful, with the risk that if they're not successful within a few years they have to go live on welfare and have 0 savings if they fail. That's retarded.
And maybe doing something like a Barista FIRE could work, but for me I can just keep working for a few more years and not have to worry about splitting my time with a part time job.

>>56122263
Starting one's own business is the much more difficult path for most people unless you can raise equity/debt financing. And even then you're giving up ownership of your company and things can grind to a halt if a debt covenant is exercised.

t. Software wagie making $200k remote living with boomer dad

I think the key point you are all missing is that I really just don't wanna fucking go to work man

>>56122284
starting a business doesn't have to be capital-intensive. Literally, you can just consult on something you know or provide a service that solves a simple problem like cleaning. All it takes is some salesmanship. I even know one chick with 0 college education who runs social media accounts educating her followers on skincare and offers consulting to solve their acne issues. She makes more than enough to pay her bills. I know another dude also with 0 college who did the same thing but as a personal trainer and offers diet/workout programs.
Sure, this shit wont make anyone rich but it will pay the bills and open opportunities to build bigger things or buy a home etc. Or they can just cruise and work on reducing their hours, all while no jew boss orders them what to do

>>56122341
I’m probably just going to leave my job in like 6 months and swing crypto on high time frames

>>56122190
well presumably you would take your expenses into account before you enter into early retirement.

>>56122443
>swing crypto on high time frames

>>56120725
It's a meme in the sense that it's a gigantically bloated term for just
>save money, invest money, wala you now have more money

>>56120909
Or maybe you're just a jew, spiritually if not also genetically. Reminder that the Tsar (or Hitler) did nothing wrong trying to force you to become productive members of society instead of lazy inbred leeches parasitizing the retarded Polish peasants one village over.

>>56121050
>Switches from using "wife" to "partner" between 2016 and 2017
It's over

>>56121280
As opposed to what? your blog post? GTFO faggot I ain’t reading your bullshit

>>56122467
Better idea than being an Instagram influencer

>>56122278
>Who wants to abandon a 100k/year job, live off their savings in the hopes of being successful, with the risk that if they're not successful within a few years they have to go live on welfare and have 0 savings if they fail. That's retarded.
Kek I knew someone that actually did this. He quit his gig in oil and gas to be an SJW activist LMAO. Last I heard he was living off a HELOC and had his linkedin page with the cringe #opentowork flair.

>>56121502
>>56120880
I think the takeaway is that the goal of FIRE isn't to retire. The goal of FIRE is to be in a situation where you don't have to play ball merely because you are living longterm paycheck to paycheck.

>>56122974
100% agree

>>56120725
It's a meme unless you're top 5% in terms of income starting in your early 20s and continuing until at least your mid 30s. Even then, it's retarded unless your job is cushy enough that you're not sacrificing your youth.

There are still millions of people in that category that you see online. You're seeing DINKs working at FAANG jobs trying to decide what to do with their piles of cash.

>>56120935
>he doesn't have hobbies
Inb4 "turn ur hobby into a bizness!", the marketable part of most hobbies are either teaching it (fuck that, I hate people) , or cranking out product which turns the hobby into a shitty grind

>>56120725
Imagine hitting your FIRE goals in 2020 and retiring only to have everything double in value on you KEK. Yes FIRE is a meme.

>>56121269
Wow, a whole $80k! If you and your wife both made that you'd almost be able to afford a house!

>>56120810

> the numbers worked cuz my girlfriend was pitching in
> I retired in 2015 with 950k
> my life is great now at age 43 - I have a girlfriend at age 43 and we may have kids!

Next blog: OMG ! I'm wagie and my kids ate my savings!

Idk I'm going to be honest w/ u gang
This guy is not fucking rich!!! At All!!!!

It is crazy how sheltered people are who don't post here or talk with actual rich ppl irl. The best part is I bet normies would think this guy is financially smart.

Whole blog could be summed up as "you'll need more money than you think" and "you need to live a meaningful live with or without money"

>>56123380
5% down payment on 700k holy fuck how will anyone ever afford that

>go from working way too hard to working none
It seems like a great way to fuck up your dopamine and worldview but what do I know I never worked to begin with I just click buttons and money go up

>>56120909
This

>>56123842
You’ve never gone through a mortgage application process I can tell.
You need to make like $250k for a $700k mortgage with current rates and conventional 20% down financing and that number would go up as you are financing more money.
Imagine thinking you know shit about fuck to the point where a bank should allow you to take a loan out for $665,000 95% LTV because you think that it’s a completely normal thing to just have that much debt as long as it’s got some shitty house you don’t even own as a form of collateral tied to it.
Hoomers are truly morons

>>56123842
Holy shit you're dumb as fuck. 5% down on a $700k house would run $5.5-6k/m, you'd need $185/k minimum income (assuming no other debt) to even dream of getting approved

>>56124266
>$185/k minimum income
I know people with less than that approved for a mill lmao

>>56124440
No you don't unless they have a serious co-signer.

>>56121220
this, you could get in a random car crash that could change your life forever obviously in a bad way. Enjoy your money in your youth anons

>>56124735
surely you would want to have some $ put aside in case you ended up in that unfortunate situation.

fire is pretty easy if you get off to a good/traditional start...
>come from a reasonably well off family so you're not starting out with debt
>get married in early to mid 20's
>start earning a median income in your 20's

but if you're single and don't start fire until like 35, holy fuck are you fucked.

>>56120810
>FIRE failure
He hit a wife-shaped bump but all told he seems fine.

He has the luxury of being able to choose whether he stays working, which probably makes it all the more tolerable.

>>56121999
they lived with 20-30k per year. at the first health problem it was becoming more difficult, she saw him as a crippled poorfag who will have to count his cents for the rest of his life

>>56120725
>>56120810
It's a meme for most. The trick to actually FIRE is to learn another language and move to a country with a cheap CoL. SE Asia is the stereotype but Eastern Europe and South America works well, too. Visas can be a little tricky but there are plenty of options.
Also if you want to FIRE quickly and you don't work for Google, you're gonna have to forget about the wife and kids lifestyle unless you meet a local woman who supports your FIRE lifestyle. Also, as a sidenote, a lot of people will resent you.
I did it. It's cozy but I certainly made a lot of compromises that most Americans probably wouldn't do.

>>56120880
/thread.

everyone in the position to fire/fatfire will be worse off doing so. everyone who would never be capable of doing so yearns for it. its the biggest financial meme spewed around, wreaking havoc on everyone not distanced enough to see its obvious pitfalls

>t. someone in the first category working again

>>56125822
Fellow passportbro, which SEA countries would you recommend for FIRE then? Preferably a place where it isn't too unsafe to live in

>>56120725
I have over a mil at 25 & its not enough to retire? Maybe if I stopped eating the 20 cents more expensive noodles I could by now!

lol fuck that, I just make money on my business & fuck femboys. I don't fucking care. Thats whats fun, FIRE then do what? sit around alone?

>>56120725
No. You just need to have a good grasp on your finances.

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics ( https://www.bls.gov/cex/tables.htm#crosstab ), a single man can live on 24 k$/a (2.0 k$/mo), and a couple can live on 39 k$/a (3.3 k$/mo; 20 k$/person-year, 1.6 k$/person-month).
According to Vanguard, from 1926 to 2022, stocks and bonds had average return of 10.2 %/a and 5.1%/a, respectively.
According to the BLS, from 1926 to 2022, average inflation was 2.9 %/a.
The Vanguard Target Retirement Fund uses a bond/stock split of 70/30.
Putting all these things together: You can survive indefinitely by saving up 410 K$ (or 340 k$/person if you're in a couple) and withdrawing 5.8 %/a.

You can get away with saving even less than that if your expenses are lower than the BLS figures. For example, the BLS assumes that a single man with gross income less than 15 k$/a spends 110 $/mo at restaurants, 33 $/mo on alcohol, and 79 $/mo on entertainment. Obviously, it isn't too hard to achieve frugality in those purely discretionary categories.

>>56120725
It is, but doesn’t mean it doesn’t work

>>56120725
I've always disliked being born Bulgarian because all of that time I spent in school and knowing the language are essentially wasted, since I ended up moving to the UK anyway... until I learned about FIRE. Now I'm realising I have a golden opportunity to move to a cheap ass country without any issues in a few years. It basically cuts the time until my retirement in half. Westniggers will never know how good it is to be able to go home to your cheap country to retire ASAP. Suck it niggers

>>56120880
Bro, I just wanna play video games all day. I don't need a job to do that.

>>56125881
pretty based. What kind of business do you run?

>>56125657
What's interesting about the wife-shaped bumped is that it feels like half of her major gripe was that she couldn't increase her spending over time for more luxury things, while instead they had to be content with whatever they currently had.
If they worked another few years, their savings on top of their retirement earnings would probably have doubled their retirement withdrawal rate, which means they could afford to do that same kind of normie shit she craved, like getting new wooden floors, remodel their kitchen, lavish vacations, less penny pinching, and it'd give her a purpose to spend an extra $50k/year on a renovation or a hobby, rather than living a poor lifestyle, so she'd get a sense of working towards something and be spending her time.
Maybe it'd never be enough because her other major gripe was that she needed to feel like a girlboss again and have people reporting to her and to feel important. Normally raising kids, being part of a community, and volunteering would fill that role but she couldn't even try doing any of that, probably from being mentally damaged growing up in this society. Basically born a corpo and thought she could handle being a nomad, but couldn't cut it.

>>56126352
I'm getting an NL citizenship to move to Bulgaria in the end.
I wish it had a nomad visa program so that I could skip the extra step.

>>56120810
That wasn't much of a failure. Dude had other issues going on but his portfolio actually increased in value during those 5 years he wasn't working.

>>56124440
That's only P&I you retarded faggot. And no, you do not know people that were approved for a 95% LTV $1m loan on less than $185k income

>>56120841
>NEET incels
>wage cage
Are you stupid?

>>56127455
It is also a red flag to me that they hadn't budgeted for children, and suddenly now the blogger is keen for kids with this new lass.

Women go crazy doing nothing

>>56129361
They didn't budget for kids because they found out the woman couldn't have kids. Probably part of the reason why she went crazy.

>>56123380
Yeah I couldn't buy a decent house today but I bought with a 20% downpayment back when interest was 3%. Sorry you missed the boat.