/biz/ - Business & Finance

The government is forcefully extracting money from the hard working middleclass in form of taxes and give it to single moms because they know they throw the money out of the window and straight in the pocket of filthy Juice, whereas the working men are more likely to save their hard earned money
But hey, at least our GDP is higher than chinas!

>>55483444
>Without labor, there is no wealth.
I just found a gold nugget on the ground that I was not actively searching for. Commie shitpost refuted, now kys and go back to /pol/ or reddit or wherever

Tell it to the taxman.

>>55483444
Kill yourself commie
All fields

>>55483444
Let's see you make something. Anything. Let's make it simple. Make a car tire. Report back when you are finished. Oh, and you will do it with no machines, no building, no electricity, and you will gather any needed materials by yourself. On foot. Have at it, Labor.

The truth is that labor is much less essential to production than capital. But nobody is more ignorant of the meaning and function of capital than a child railing against capitalism.

And I will go further. Being a good manager is much more difficult than being a laborer. This is partly true because laborers are, for the most part, stupid and lazy.

This having been said, crony capitalist corporatism is terrible. Still not as bad as communism.

>>55483444
Daily reminder that finance is pseudoscientific make believe garbage and capitalism is inherently unstable, exploitative and unsustainable with a built in expiration date. Ever escalating recessions, poverty, debt, wealth inequality, monopolies, worsening labor conditions, disease, pollution, exploitation, slavery, conflict and wars are fundamental, necessary and intended principles of it, NOT glitches. Greed, selfishness, lying, cheating, stealing, competition, conflict, slavery and war and overall evilmaxxing are behaviors highly encouraged and incentivized under capitalism. It is LITERALLY cancer and i dont mean it metaphorically, i mean it literally, it shares the exact same functions and principles as a cancer cell.

Unless every single financier parasite, banker and trader is euthanized and every stock market and bank is burned to the ground, and the status quo completely abolished, the biosphere and all life will extinguished. The higher the "Line god" (GDP) is, the lower life is. Every single financier parasite needs to be euthanized

>>55483461
this

Imagine being a commie on a business and finance board. Fuck off to reddit.

>>55483602
Know that no matter h9w many guns you buy or how many gated communities you hide behind, we will find you and euthanize you putrid parasite

>>55483444
Get back in your grave, Karl.

>>55483486
what are you going to buy with it?

>>55483444
>all wealth comes from labor
false

>>55483636
predictable deflect from a fat fuck ameriburger who has never worked a real job in their life
no, those six weeks of fast food before you went to college don't count, lard

>>55483444
baste

>>55483636
Are you going to produce the euthanization equipment by hand?

>>55483636
Seething leech.
You are nothing more than surplus population. It is purely by luck that you were born into a society where you haven't ended up in a mass grave by now. I pray every day that your kind actually does something besides write angry words, so that I may exterminate you with impunity.

Also front dubs and back dubs ID and post. Checkem.

>>55483444
If all the wealth comes from labor can't mr labor start his own business and maximize the wealth produced by his labor?

“Labor is prior to and independent of capital,” the country’s 16th president said. “Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

- Abraham Lincoln.

>>55483486
You still had to do labor to pick it up you moronic faggot. Not to mention you need a market to even exchange your boomer rocks at.Really it's amazing how stupid you are.

>>55483665
Not false. It's very true.

>>55483751
See picrel.

Where does capital come from if not from labor? Do you think it just magically falls out of the sky?

>>55483783
not my question. im asking if mr labor can't maximize his wealth starting his own business? If all wealth is coming from labor, then just start a business bro, you can keep the money for yourself.
But no you don't want that. You want security, so you let someone else take the risk, whilst you get paid sick days, insurance, severance policies, retirement. YOu want to hide behind the corporate illusion of safety.

If you really believe the wealth comes from labor, then just start a business and use your labor without a middle man.
That would mean, working independent. But you won't have any corporate safety nets. But you won't need 'em since you make so much laboring.

communists are midwit self-imposed victims and haters. only their mental gymnastics can refute this.

man idk what >>55483444 are whining about.
why not just NEET it up? You literally can't NEET in a communist society yknow?

>>55483814
On average a bussniess costs around 30,000 dollars to create. This is a massive non sequter and has nothing to do with the actual point that labor creates all capital while a small group of parasites benifit off the lions share of sed work and labor done to produce sed capital. Like I don't see in your head how "labor creates all wealth" means that "workers will all magically be able to start businesses"

Are you brain dead?

Again where does capital come from? Answer the question you slimy worthless worm.

>>55483849
>Answer the question you slimy worthless worm.
Do you always get this defensive when talking to strangers?
Not sure why you're so upset suddenly.

>>55483602
Check out these two wooden bowls I made. The left was my first attempt and the right is my second. I haven’t tried a third but I’m sure I’ll get better.

>>55483872
communism bro
see >>55483839

>>55483872
I've had this same interaction 100 times with pol losers. Yes it's quite annoying when they dodge very obvious answers to questions because it makes them uncomfortable ideologically. At least be a man enough to admit something to yourself.

>>55483874
Good job anon keep at it.

I make paper at a paper mill which I am sure not 1 of these pussies could possibly ever attempt to do.

>>55483874
more of a cup than a bowl imo but nice!

Suppose that you have two villages. One has a surplus of fish, one has a surplus of wood. These are independent villages. It takes a while to travel between them. An ancient merchant gets the idea to work out a deal to trade surplus fish for surplus wood. They profit from the exchange, and the village that needed fish has fish and the village that needed wood has wood. The merchant did not produce the fish, or the wood, but both villages are comparatively wealthier and have had their needs fulfilled by the merchant.

Now suppose that there's a group of dangerous nomads between the two villages. Some warriors are going to have to go along to protect the merchants from being raided. In fact those warriors are going to have to be present in both villages to protect them from dangerous raiders. Warriors have to train to be good at fighting. They require equipment, and spend their time training. They are valuable enough to be paid, although not on the basis of labor.

Suppose you have wisemen who can read and write in these villages, and need to be consulted. They spend their time accumulating knowledge that needs to be referenced, and discovering new and useful knowledge. They are worth having, even though they are not laborers.

Someone shouldn't have to explain how all of civilization from the dawn of agriculture emerged to you in order to explain why Communism is based on a series of obviously flawed propositions.

>>55483897
whaat? really? post pic i'm curious

>>55483890
I don't believe in ideologies. It's all shit. You leave out human nature in your equations. Someone wants something more than some one else and someone else is going to pay for it. Simple as. That's why in every communist country it's been a hell shithole.
At least in capitalism you can NEET, so I dont know why you're not NEETing it up and living your life.

>>55483849
>where does capital come from
Past labors that you had nothing to do with. Sorry but not even the government can enrich worthless people for long, take the time you spend seething about le capitalism and spend it developing a skill and maybe you won't be so useless

>>55483461
But men dont save they just throw their money into ponzi schemes and act surprised when it disappears

>>55483615
Interchange capitalism with government and you are on the right track.

>>55483908
I don't have any pictures on me. The company I work for doesn't let us take pictures and we can't bring phones on the floor anyways because we have a fire every other week.

Look up how paper board is made. It's quite a process. One of the most dangerous industries on earth actually.

>>55483929
So you admit that all capital comes form labor: Thanks for admitting that labor is the superior of capital. See you already knew this but you can't actually admit it so youstrawman the argument to be something that no one ever said where some how "I" specifically have to be the one to create the labor when that isn't the case. Not only did no one every say that no one in economics at all ever speaks in such specific teminiollogy. You are just a bunch of lying faggots.

>>55483909
You might think you don't have ideology but you do. The ideologies you submit to are the ideologies that this society has told you are true and you believe them to be "natural" So you think you are being objective but you aren't.

Yeah you can n33t and live off your rich parents who also are worthless parasites. Communism means more people working but less over all work for everyone but retards like you can't comprehend that.

>>55483964
>I don't have any pictures on me. The company I work for doesn't let us take pictures and we can't bring phones on the floor anyways because we have a fire every other week.

kek. i worked in a MDF factory for a few years. had a 3-4 story tall press light up in front of my face, a roaring wall of flame. scary shit.

Youre wrong.
The labour theory of value is wrong, the truth is: value is subjective, and is a human concept.
Different people might jugde the value of something differently.
Only fans debunks the labour theory of value

>>55483958
I’d say women are way more likely to fall for those but they prey on both genders. When I met my wife and after we were dating long enough for her to show me her finances I changed it all.

401K bumped from 3 percent to 6. She got a match up to 5.

Hysa set to auto deposit $150 bi weekly

Robinhood set to auto deposit $200 to sp500 bi weekly

She had so much spare cash and used it on useless shit. Now she has her future finances secured I told her she can spend the rest and not worry

>>55483981
Lmao, MDF and Steel production are scarier than paper mills i'll give you that. That machine was nuts the first time I saw it. I worked at a bulelt factory prior and I thought paper would be a cake walk but it's much more insane. They pay well tho.

>>55483994
>The truth of value if subjective

Wow NO ONE ever said it wasn't even karl marx we don't think mud pies have value mises is fucking retarded and so are you.

If you put 1000 hours of work into something, and nobody wants to buy it...
Value comes only from the subjective view of the consumers

>>55483964
>The ideologies you submit to are the ideologies that this society has told you are true and you believe them to be "natural" So you think you are being objective but you aren't.
translation:
>you don't believe in what i believe therefore you are le bad

>>55484013
That isn't what marx said. Holy fuck this is what happens when you get your opinions from Mises and not marx himself because you think reading Capital is going to betray the white race or some retarded shit.

>>55484020
I don't believe in anything but facts I don't really know what to tell you. If you don't want to believe in reality that is on you.

>>55484003
Lol marx said the value only comes from work.
Hes wrong, seethe commie

>>55483964
Fuck off Jake

>>55483964
Nothing works love. It's all a massive scam. Why do you put so much effort into this? If you gave half that effort into anything else, who knows what you'd accomplish.

>>55484031
No he didn't say that you retard.

Marx discribed that there are two systems of value where in one values something for it's utility and where one values something for its exchange. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about and you need to touch grass and get a job son.

This is now a commie demoralistion thread. Seethe commie. You are weak, and you will will never win against capitalism. Youre a joke.

>>55484037
Because I don't have a choise but to work because I am not privileged. I am poor and grew up poor. So I must work to survive. I work as hard as I do to try and get out of poverty. Not every one can just n33t all day.

>>55484051
>You're week

>Communist works in a paper mill while anti-communist retard sits around all day jerking off to troons on 4chan


LOL yeah ok bud.

>>55484003
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq4RhIsHjRQ&feature=youtu.be

>>55484053
choice*

>>55483783
It comes from demand
Sometimes oysters make a black pearl. These were considered defective and undesirable. Nearly worthless on the market. Then a jewelry shop advertised it as "RARE BLACK PEARL" and sold them for exorbitant prices.
So to answer your question, capital comes from an oysters mouth

>>55484045
>Marx discribed that there are two systems of value where in one values something for it's utility and where one values something for its exchange
which is empirically confirmed by his ass

>>55483444
>t. Materialist idiot that can't into metaphysics

>>55483814
>JuSt Be A BoSs YourSelF

There is no way "people" like you are real you have to be AI designed by CIA

>>55484063
The wagie boasts about working. Are you proud of your slavery? Does it make you mad?

>>55483636
>>55483734

Hey either of you fellas want to buy a gun? I do best price, special price just for you friends.

>>55483964
>somebody else did labor in the past so that means I'm entitled to appropriate the fruits of it because I labor too
What the fuck kind of retarded argument is this, commies are truly the lowest of the low
You will always be poor, always, unless you change your ways

>>55484053
I'm not a NEET bro. I work. I was homeless even.
But I don't blame or look weird at anyone who declines work. Nor will I look weird at anyone who does low paying jobs. Idgaf mate. It is your life, you do as you please.
If you're stuck in a job you don't like and feel impoverished there's nothing to do but look in the mirror. Have the guts to go all in and commit to something.
If I can work myself up from being homeless with no money, why can't you get out of a shitty job?

>>55484064
hahah holy fuck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pl0EV7E0KQ

Paperboard doesn't sound dangerous at first but when we hay out that is when shit gets sketch and you have to thread up millionths of a mm thin sheet of paper by hand and with air.

We had a kid lose a finger just the other day.

>>55483444
>1 post by this ID

>>55484074
Demand alone cannot create capital. This is false. You can want a play station 5 but until some cheap chinese underpaid labor puts it together you aren't going to get one.

>>55484075
Nothing in economics is empirically confirmed you moron.

>>55484089
I love my job. Yes. I make 100k a year and it's a union job. Cope and seeth worthless n33t. When your parents die I hope you work at burger king until you die.

>>55484087
Im as real as it gets.
you know the earth is flat right?

>>55484111
Actually I want a black pearl
And an ouster will make it for free

>>55484099
I don't hate people who don't work, per se. Or even people who own businesses. But I think there's a better more efficent way of doing things and I deff don't think people should en mass be able to skirt by like they do under capitalism doing nothing. Business owners at least do work to manage a business even if they don't do much else.

I am just investing in the stock market and hoping I can retire in about 20 years. Maybe get a simple part time job. But to answer your question I actually love my job a lot.

>>55484126
You still have to pay some child living off the cost of Africa to go hunt it down. Do you not see how this works? This is denial at this point.

>>55484136
>I am just investing in the stock market and hoping I can retire in about 20 years.

Fucking capitalist pig

>>55484111
>Nothing in economics is empirically confirmed you moron
Therefore your system of analysis is wrong and the most practical way to look at economics is the subjectivist school.

Looks like you don't even know your own master, whose objective is to quantify something that is unquantifiable.

>>55483444
How many people work for the fat guy in that picture though? If you put enough of the small bags together it would be the same size as the big bag. So if the fat guy ran a factory with hundreds of employees or something, and they all got the same small bag as compensation, the fat guy would just barely break even lol

>>55484149
What is your point?

>>55484152
That's exactly what my point is you dumb ass, lmao. What is your point? That because it's all opinion, more or less, that you think that gives you the right to believe shit that doesn't make sense like that wealth and value magically spawns into existence when two businessmen wage their dicks at eachother? LTV still makes a lot more sense than any nonsese that came from the Chicago school, or, the fucking Austrians, lmao

>>55484162
Yeah elon musk is deff hurting so much

>>55484176
We're not talking about elon musk we're talking about the fat guy in the picture and yes that picture is meant to be taken literally not metaphorically.

>>55483444

it seems absurd to take a completely anthropogenic view of "value". natural resources are valuable and could be considered "wealth". some of them can be used effortlessly and some require a degree of labor to extract and refine. human labor should indeed profit the laborer, but your premise is bogus.

>>55484099
>JusT pULL booTstraPs haRdeR PeaSant

Or listen to this how about instead i euthanize all these parasites that claim living beings are inherently worthless that need to repent for the "sin" of existing every day and through this propaganda they have managed to enslave all of mother Earth and hoard 90% of all wealth and murdered all ecosystems? There is plastic in the air i breathe and the water i drink. Even if i am not homeless i live in a small concrete hole in a dirty cancerous city working 6 days a week like a dog under the authority of 5 different bosses.

How is it possible that working class people looe you who have even experienced extreme poverty become such enthusiastic bootlickers?

>>55484136
I don't think you'll find much efficiency in communism. Truth is, low paying jobs simply suck. There's nobody that gets excited about cleaning 40h a week. And then, you're basically saying the same as everyone. I want to retire/stop working, or work when I can decide the clock and not someone else. Nobody likes work, not in capitalism or communism.
I think pic related suits you better.

>>55484193

in other words, yes, the laborer is entitled to the fruits of his labor. however, we are also entitled to the earth's bounty of resources, which special interests have no right to monopolize.

All "work" is theft. The niggers picking cotton back in the good old days didn't ask the plants' permission for harvest; the niggers stole the cotton from the plants. Miners don't ask permission to rape the rocky earth for metals & jewels; miners steal the rocks. In every financial endeavor, there are affected parties, unasked & without consent.

So who gives a fuck? If you complain about being a wagie, call for a commie revolution, but still work for pennies so that you can pay your bills, then guess what? You are a natural born slave, not a person, and you should suck off your employers for their gracious employment of a worthless pest such as yourself. You wanna do something about it? Quit your job and become the change you wish others would bring about. I don't hear any filthy kikes screaming rn, so it doesn't sound like you are doing anything about it.

You will continue to toil as a wageslave after WE have seized power from the kikes, because you never helped us, you always helped them, and you are psychologically & genetically slaves.

Get fukt, wages, cuz you lazy, selfish, cowardly idiots actively maintain the oppresive system which you refuse to effectively oppose in any meaningful way.

I hope all of your jobs are taken by AI & foreigners.

>>55484179
>PLEASE SOME ONE FEEL SORRY FOR THE GUY WHO MADE THE CHOISE TO LIVE OFF THE LABOR OF PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL UTILITY!!!


No, I wont feel sorry for the guy who does not work and has a nice suburban house while I literally put my life on the line for him and his breeder family living in poverty.

>>55484195
Commies are always to forced to draw a false dichotomy between their shitty system and the shitty system that currently exists because it's the only hope they have of making themselves look good. In reality even our exploitative garbage system is still better than communism, and you would likely cause mass impoverishment and starvation because you cannot accept the reality that the mouth breathing, drooling, half asleep bus driver is not the most important factor to making the bus move, let alone move in a cost effective manner

>>55483602
Rubber for the tire came from where and who's hands
Iron ore to make the machines came from labor in the mines
Electricity arrived at your meter by wire
underground or from a pole , all by labor
Protip: Managers are labor unless they own
the business or the bank

>>55484239
It's not even worht arguing with you because you will never be convinced of anything else. You have your head up your own ass.

>>55484168
>well yes that's exactly what i was saying, and since i said that you're right you're actually a retard because the LTV (also known as "something has value when i work on it, but only when i say it is socially necessary which is still a concept of subjective evaluation but let's ignore that") makes more sense
>therefore you're a retarded lolberg
lmao saying nonsense
Marxistoids are fucked in their mind.

>>55484207
Braindead ignorant parasite people dont like JOBS. They love WORKING. WORK is the physical manifestation of each living beings soul. It is each living beings footprint in this physical world and it is always VOLUNTARY. It is a PHYSICS term

A JOB is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. It is the COMMODIFICATION of WORK. It is WORK that has been BOUGHT/ENSLAVED. It is always FORCED. Creatures HATE being forced. Being VIOLATED. Being CONTROLED. Being ORDERED. Being MONITORED. ALL of which happen under the authoritarian formation of labor(WORK) under capitalism (prinarily wage labor)

That is why communists say seize the means of PRODUCTION. Democratization/DEPRIVATIZATION of PRODUCTIONS means deprivatization of LABOR which means LIBERATION

>>55483444
Labour is valuable because.... IT JUST IS OKAY?!

>>55484237
>has a nice suburban house
How do you know? If the little bags add up to the big bag then he didn't even make a profit and therefore can't afford a house

>does not work
If he's not making a profit then he has to work to not be homeless

>B-BUT HES FAT
So are poor people. Food is abundant in first-world countries. Dying from starvation doesn't even exist in such places

>>55484257
Why not just join a commune?

>>55484277
I hate people

>>55484257
Give me one single example of living being not forced to evolve according to material circumstances.

>>55484095
WRONG

>>55484179
The fat guy us a yew and he got there by the help of other yews who decided humans are slaves since inception. They sit there because they own the Banks, the corporations and the governments. They draft laws to destroy their competition, inflate the money supply and create wars so they can rebuild it afterwards. They even invented the slogans you paraphrase like a good goy. Whenever there are countries that they have no grip on, they send in retards like you who want to "seize the means of production and abolish capitalism". When it finally works, they have a totalitarian state that redistrubutes the wealth to them and lets you starve. The reason they push this ideology is because history has proven it to be the most effective and fast way to decimate the human population to manageable levels by killing one another or starve them. But go on and blame capitalism , stay away from history books you might learn something

>>55484320
>The fat guy us a yew
how come his nose isnt big then

>>55484322
I expected a marx (jew) quote but this is just lazy

>>55484353
Because I just don't like the picture lol

>>55484239

bill gates is buying up tons of farmland in america. would you say that he's the most important factor in whether or not food is grown there? no. it would probably happen (if need be) regardless of whether gates owns it or not. so clearly, a man who only throws around his capital at what he thinks will become valuable in the future is not necessarily doing a service to humanity either. of course, i think one should be able to own their own property, but clearly large-scale property speculation and monopolistic business tactics do not facilitate the "free market", as it were.

>>55483461
>our GDP is higher than chinas!
China doesn't even count their GDP in the same way nor do they actually give a transparent explanation for how they arrive at it. Besides, the only way we'd possibly have higher gdp than them is due to outsourcing, which is basically cultural suicide.

>>55484298
>material circumstances
>capitalism

Why are parasites like you this way? Capitalism is ARTIFICIAL. Why are you mentioning evolution? What does evolution have anything to do with what we are talking about?

>>55484365
cont.

there's an argument to be made that communism is dysgenic. this could be mitigated with policy. however, it seems that a smart parasite is scarcely a lesser danger to humanity than a dumb parasite.

>>55483444
Wealth and economy as a whole is defined as whatever the strong want it to be.
>>55483486
Cool, that will be a gold nugget for one bread.
Thanks.

>>55484415
cont.

again though, i don't advocate communism or socialism per se. rather, big business and finance are regulated in such a way that enables oligopolies and anti-competitive strategies.

>>55483444
Checked but most of the "wealth" in the world was not created by labor rather by usury and fractional reserve banking. No labor needed.

>>55484447

debt is not wealth. or are you suggesting that people would simply not be inclined to work very hard if they weren't in debt?

>>55484410
>Why are parasites like you this way?
because it makes leeches like you boil and scream in pain, expecially when they are too mentally challenged to understand that people do not make money for the sake of accumulating money, they want to make money so they have access to as much resources as they can.

Every single organism in nature does its best to accumulate as much resources as they can, they compete, kill each others, steal, sometimes even rape to do only that, in a challenge of which solution is the best for the species. There is nothing artificial out of this and nothing artificial and temporary about any "system" ruling over us, and even when it does it's replaced by something similar if not equal.

Nothing personnel, but optimization.

>>55484298
ALSO since parasites like you always try to use cancer arguments to defend the status quo even if we do try to use "evolution" as argument it still doesnt make sense. In the last 200 years 80% of earths BIODIVERSITY has gone extinct. Were all these creatures "inferior" too? Bare in mind some of these were creatures that existed for millions of years btw (maybe they changed shape a little bit during the centuries no one is immune to evolution but the form remained constant)

It's always funny to me how the people who understand the economy but are largely outside of it (ie, not corporate """economists""") aren't necessarily socialist, but will shit on fraud capitalism anyway.

Boomers literally and figuratively destroyed this world.

>>55484495
The whole "might makes right" folk are so weird. You claim you are strong but have absolutely no problem deepthroating the cocks and boots of your masters.

I guess it does make somewhat sense since they are "mightier" than you and have "won" therefore you are not only ok with your subjugation but even admire your masters as "strongmen" and willfully become their enthusiastic soldiers going as far as fighting their battles.

Also what you said is blatantly false. Yes conflict and competition exists in nature but it is hardly the sole thing that exists. Also almost no species hoards resources. Like wtf are you even talking about? Are you referring to ants who take food in their nests? Which species hoards food? And even if they do hoard which one does to the extent that man currently does with its insane wealth inequality?

>>55484495
>Every single organism in nature does its best to accumulate as much resources as they can, they compete, kill each others, steal, sometimes even rape to do only that, in a challenge of which solution is the best for the species. There is nothing artificial out of this and nothing artificial and temporary about any "system" ruling over us, and even when it does it's replaced by something similar if not equal.
>Nothing personnel, but optimization.

fair enough, but if you're going to take that position then you can't exactly pretend to be taking the moral high road, can you? humans are now in a position to maintain and increase fitness without brutal natural selection, but instead via research, public policy and common sense. human laws, organizations, and artifice exist so that we do not have to live like savages.

>>55484498
>the last 200 years 80% of earths BIODIVERSITY has gone extinct. Were all these creatures "inferior" too?
99% of all the species since the dawn of life on this planet went extinct as well.

Are those things inferior? no
They lacked fitness to survive in that moment? yes

Was A&P who wen bankrupt lacking a good business plan when we invented refrigerators and people started to use them? Yes
Is it still a good business for a population without refrigerators? Also yes

>>55484544
>The whole "might makes right" folk are so weird.

they are correct, might does make right. often though, they are not quite as mighty as they think. why would they rely on deceit if they are so strong? why do they lie so often if they are so powerful and wise?

>>55484142
Clearly I am casting my pearls before swine

>>55484063
I'm in the office at the paper mill
Commie works in the sweaty, chemical laden plant and is green with envy

>>55484365
The problem is that the market entirely fake. For 99.9% of human history, commodities with limited supply have acted as money, primarily silver, but also gold, seashells, grains of wheat, etc.
The current system is, money is a paper receipt backed by the need to use it to pay taxes, and the government's use of force to forbid other mediums of trade. The federal reserve banking cartel prints assloads of these paper receipts, and give them to the banks, government contractors, and other well connected cronies. Wagies are last in line to receive the new money, and it's not a coincidence that income inequality started steadily climbing the moment Nixon ended the gold standard.

For some reason, probably letter agency psy-ops, literally every single commie will tell you that we can't end the fed even though its existence is the most blatantly exploitative act against the people currently being perpetuated.

>>55484572
>in the moment

What "MOMENT" you braindead parasite? Evolution works through THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of years. 80% of species have gone extinct in two HUNDRED years.

>>55483444
>man who practices free throw shots 5 hrs/day
>man who thinks about practices free throw shots 12hrs/day

who's better?

>>55484544
>you are strong but have absolutely no problem deepthroating the cocks and boots of your masters
the difference? you can't change your masters, spread your ass as long it's for "dah peeople".

It's not just about hoarding food, it's about being able to dominate over the environment and being adaptable enough to ensure you get what you need and more to expand.

>>55483602
>no machines, no building, no electricity, and you will gather any needed materials by yourself. On foot. Have at it, Labor.
shit bait

>>55483444
Can your mental gymnastics handle manufactoring costs, production, adversiting, shipping, stocking, managing large scale operations, factor how much wealth every worker must get at the end of the month, taxes, MORE TAXES?

Fucking commie scumbag. You really want handouts from the government? lmao

>>55484562
>but if you're going to take that position then you can't exactly pretend to be taking the moral high road
Do i talk like a commie for you?
>humans are now in a position to maintain and increase fitness without brutal natural selection
Then why do you struggle to maintain this big fucking industrial machine doing everything in its power to subjugate ytheir populations, from commie states to "democratic" ones?

Did i mention that optimization goes at the expense of what you used to be in ancient, tribal stages? Do you think everything you listed is not subjected to evolutionary forces, that you won't be forced to stay at home if there's a dangerous flu outside or wake up every morning to reach a quota to win a war?

Ok, so go outside and do things. Dig holes, plant vegetables, run around the block endlessly, see how much you get paid. You're working hard so surely money will fall out of the sky and reward you because that's how it works.

>>55484605
If capitalists are parasites the commies are predators
>capitalist corporate parasite takes from its host but does not kill it
>communist government takes everything from its host rendering it effectively neutralized

>>55484254
>UHH UHH YOU'RE WRONG BECAUSE YOU JUST ARE OK!

LTV doesn't ignore that value is subjective none of you have a fucking idea what you are taling about.

>>55484257
Based

>>55484648
This is the big lie of capitalism. Under it someone with capital has to give you it, you can't simply make your own, unless you are the US treasury. The whole system is basically a handout system, but it breeds corruption, because nowhere days natural communities among regular whites hardly exists, so the inheritors (boomers) just give money to those that are most loyal to their supremacy(idiocy).

>>55484207
Yeah work can such but the communist is pointing out that in a logical more planned economic system that labor would be decreased over all. Rather than have 24 people work 12 hours a day on a 400 degree paper mill we could have 72 people work on it 4 hours a day.

This would also give more people more jobs which means less people spending all day n33ting.

>>55484261
Labor is valuable because it is the only commodity that creates value. HURR DURR

>>55484495
>leeches

Why are you parasites using words randomly when they dont even remotely apply? A leech requires a host body to extract its life force. Which host body are workers and every day people using? Why are you saying random words?

Tell me which host body does a worker exploit? Calling you a parasite makes sense because you are most likely an owner who owns slaves and exploits PEOPLE and ANIMALS. Who do every day people exploit? Which is the host body?

Schizophrenic parasite why dont you kill yourself already?

>>55484603
>The problem is that the market entirely fake. For 99.9% of human history, commodities with limited supply have acted as money, primarily silver, but also gold, seashells, grains of wheat, etc.
>The current system is, money is a paper receipt backed by the need to use it to pay taxes, and the government's use of force to forbid other mediums of trade. The federal reserve banking cartel prints assloads of these paper receipts, and give them to the banks, government contractors, and other well connected cronies. Wagies are last in line to receive the new money, and it's not a coincidence that income inequality started steadily climbing the moment Nixon ended the gold standard.
>For some reason, probably letter agency psy-ops, literally every single commie will tell you that we can't end the fed even though its existence is the most blatantly exploitative act against the people currently being perpetuated.

precisely. money is a commodity that we all need in order to do business. if there is no money, then conducting any sort of business becomes difficult for lack of a standardized means of transaction. however, i've never heard anyone speak a word in favor of the so-called "Federal" Reserve. most major political archetypes conveniently ignore monetary policy itself, or only speak about it a very distorted way. of course it's all a farce. however, it's not a particularly complicated farce. how robust is it? how durable is it? is it a pillar of concrete and rebar or a jenga tower with one too many pegs missing? if any significant fraction of the population knew how it worked, there would be a furious mob in Washington DC by tomorrow. this does not seem very stable to me. i don't have confidence in it.

>>55484663
I know, and that is exactly what makes LTV an obsolete theory.

>>55483486
>I just found a gold nugget on the ground that I was not actively searching for.
You know this never happens in real life right? I could also write shit like
>I was walking in Paris when Natalie Herschlag picked me up, telling i was the cutest boy ever, inviting me to have a drink in her hotel room.

>>55484271
Because no one would own a business if it wasn't at least better than labor. It's opportunity costs. At least on average. I think this is just major cope.

>If he's not making a profit then he has to work to not be homeless
When we say that the owner doesn't work we really mean he doesn't actually PRODUCE anything of value. Owners and bosses just shuffle around capital rather than produce useful things for society. It isnt neccesary, really..

I'm not even against small bussniess ownership a it eists today nore do I hate small bussniess owners. I just have an issue with the economic system at large.

>>55484693
>A leech requires a host body to extract its life force
Lazy workers- leech
Hard workers-host
No real incentive to work when all your money goes to the state

>>55484021
>That isn't what marx said
Yes, Adam Smith said that

>>55484298
>Right wingers approaching the point

>>55484700
It's actually the most encompasing well rounded economic theory to date. At least it doesn't ignore reality like Austrian economics.

>>55484693
>Why are you parasites using words randomly when they dont even remotely apply? A leech requires a host body to extract its life force
because you suck from the tits of the state

>>55484716
Actually smith also believed labor was the creator of capital lmao. It's so funny cause I can tell you lot have never actually read these books.

>>55484684

No I mean you're entirely free to start your own small business like everyone else had to, faggot

>>55483602
>Being a good manager is much more difficult than being a laborer.
In Catalonia, managers were elected by the workers. Not by owners of Capital.

>>55484728
The state exists to help the working class idealy retard. I am sorry to tell you but with out the exists of a state capitalism could not exist and not be possible.

>>55484735
And where have I said otherwise? It's useless to read so many books and not have the skill to interpret a single line post on /biz/.

>>55483602
HAHAHAHAH seethe manager faggot. You will never be a real worker.

>>55484712
How do you know he even owns a business and this isn't a depiction of a commune where everyone distributes out portions of the big bag evenly? And some faggot just slapped agitprop text on top?

>b-because he wears a top hat and suit
Stupid fucking discrimination.

>>55483773
>you need a market to exchange your boomer rocks
So capitalists do serve a purpose in the economy. Thanks for clarifying and enjoy the L.

>>55484693
>Calling you a parasite makes sense because you are most likely an owner who owns slaves and exploits PEOPLE and ANIMALS. Who do every day people exploit? Which is the host body?
1- You took out a loan.
2- Pay it back.

>>55484693
Workers require an environment to exploit.
Some basic examples.
A carpenter exploits trees.
A farmer exploits crops.
A miner exploits terrain.
A beekeper exploits bees.
Everything exploits something anon. It's actually a requirement to sustain oneself.
>inb4 these don't count

>>55484705
Holy retard. Yes, gold occurs naturally and people find it. It's also a valid scenario that you're pretending doesn't exist. If gold has value and occurs naturally, then picking it up is no different than picking up a wad of so called "profit" made by a worker. Weird paris reddit fantasy you have though, but no argument.

>>55484718
>>55484727
so encompassing and correct nobody takes it seriously.
>inb4 you are a faggot
watch out sisters, you dont want to be called a right wing bigot

Anyone else find it weird as fuck that leftpol nigs would come here to start flame wars and then get mad that no one cares? No one on this board even wants to work a job in the first place, that's the whole reason this board exists.

So I don't know what the fuck they think they're doing by attacking probably the only people on this site who actually want to escape the rat race

>>55484698
Try talking to commies about the fed. Some might begrudgingly admit it is a corrupt institution, but that's the furthest you'll get. They are too in love with the idea of the government bailing them out to consider that the government might be the problem

Just think lads in a pre democratic world we didn't even have to sit here and listen to this shit from the subset of perpetual poor envious retards, they were just ignored and/or laughed at and everyone went along with their life

>>55484752
You faggots are so pathetic it's sad really.
>Y...y....SO YOU REALLY DO NEED A MARKET HU?

Yes you moron currently. That's called a genetic fallacy holy fuck.

>>55484750
Communism isn't when le government distributes the bagarino equally

Communism is when workers democratically control the work place.

Also he owns a bussniess because that is the point that is being made unless you some how don't understand that cartoons are not reality.

>>55484735
>Actually smith also believed labor was the creator of capital lmao
Machines are dead labor. Commodities are the product of labor. Money comes from surplus value exchanged against money. All Capital is extracted surplus value.

>>55484779
>Some might begrudgingly admit it is a corrupt institution
Kek, good fucking luck with that. Leftoids are "radicalized" in the sense that they'll attend government-endorsed riots like the Floyd chimpouts. That's as far is it goes. Most of the time they worship the establishment, and the rest of the time they're just larping when it's safe to do so.

>>55484705
My dad used to find $10-$20 per week on average just lying around.
There are instances of people finding random diamonds and gold.
Most recently an elderly woman had her diamond ring returned to her after losing it down the loo decades ago.
If only you could be flushed so indifferently.

>>55484804

They actually hate small/medium sized business and self made successes the absolute worst as they're living contradictions of their life's fantasy.

>>55484741
>The state exists to help the working class idealy retard
Ideally, you got the point.

And practically what does it do? it's the most gruesome murderer ever existed.
> the exists of a state capitalism could not exist and not be possible
Communism can't, unlike a good mutual relationship.

>>55484773
People (monoplies) exist that mine gold out of the ground retard. No one is panning for gold anymore except dumb fucks who buy it off the internet kek and even if you are THAT IS STILL LABOR LOL. You can't value gold untill you get it and do the labor to value it.

You're delusional.

And even then natural value like the value found naturally in resources before they are collected doesn't invalidate the LTV. It's natural value and it is still only valuable because we nee dto DO LABOR to pull it out of the ground and refine it into something useful or something that can be exchanged. Good lord it isn't rocket science.

>>55484773
>Yes i find gold nuggets on the ground all the time.

>>55484777
>Things are only correct if the majority of society agrees with them

negative iq moment.

>>55484791
>a-ACKchuALLY communism is blublubluh some utopia dream world durdurdur dur durrrrr *pooping farting noises* dDUDUURURURURURU *diarrhea*

No one gives a shit, faggot

>>55484801
First of all machines are historical labor not dead labor. Dead labor is like making mudpies in Marxs theory. Second of all just because you are stating obvious facts wont convince me you actually read wealth of nations or Das Capital.

The thread derailing bots have entered the thread. Do not take the baits, and answer with irony, they still do not get it.

>>55484812
Yes because capitalism corrupts literally everything and wars are extremely profitable.
But we will need that state for capitalism to function properly whether you like the government or not.

Market Failures are real and they exist.

>>55484823
>i am the minority i must be the hero of the story
A perfect resume of how narcisstic commies are.

>>55484825
>I HATE FACTS

Go vote for your golden calf trump again you retard.

>>55484705
Putting aside the fact that yes, casually finding gold on the ground is a thing that happens, let's also consider an alternative scenario
>be wagie
>buy a metal detector
>you paid for the metal detector using some medium of exchange that you acquired through your own labor
>find gold nugget in the ground
>metal detector company demands 90% of the gold because all the wagies who work there helped
Absolutely retarded claim on somebody else's labor anon. If you sell a thing, it is no longer yours. You don't get double dibs because you're butthurt that you made a bad trade

>>55484833
>Don't answer with irony, they won't get it
Oh the irony.

You are genuinely the dumbest motherfucker in this thead along with >>55484845.

And no, I'm saying that because of your political or economic leanings.

>>55484846
Lmao holy shit

>>55484848
Shut up nigger. Go back to your facebook hugbox. Facts don't care about your feelings retard

>>55484839
>Yes because capitalism corrupts literally everything and wars are extremely profitable
Yes because if you're a farming company you totally want your customers to die out. Extremely profitable

>>55484859
>facts
All you've done is spout some diarrhea about work. I don't want to get a job. No one in this board does. That's the whole point of this board.

>>55484779

the fed is not the government. they are a private bank and they have never bailed anyone out as far as i know. i don't think self-styled "commies" are a particularly large contingent here in the states, there are plenty of other people and i'd just as soon convince people who perhaps already have an inkling that something isn't quite right. people like that know the truth when they see it, even if they haven't quite figured it out on their own. you know, recognizing a solution for a problem is often much easier than coming up with one. just look at the SAT problem (depending on the canonical form it's presented in)

>>55484848
So bots are Capitalists lackey's. No wonder. How does it feel to have been programmed to egocentric assholes?

>>55484852
Not an argument, commie scum

>>55484756
It is somewhat true that energy doesnt flow between ecosystems entirely without waste and if the unending energy source of the sun that is "exploited" by earth didnt exist then life wouldnt exist either.

However natural ecosystems operate with maximum efficiency and recycle perfectly the maximum amount of energy through minimization of exploitation between its members and that is why natural ecosystems are extremely stable and long lasting. They CHANGE forms yes but as a system they almost perfectly recycle all materials and energy (that originates from the original "exploitation" of the sun)

The waste is only introduced in artificial man made "ecosystems"(imo they shouldnt be considered eco-systems but whatever) that prioriotize and glorify exploitation, evilmaxxing and bathing in blood.

>>55484873
>the fed is a private bank
The leadership is appointed by the federal government.
>the fed has never bailed anyone out as far as I know
Sounds like you don't know much about the fed

>>55484875
No, I think your head is so far up your ass that you can't see how little I care about any of this. I'm making fun of you for taking your gay little discord raid so seriously.

At the end of the day, you work at a job and I don't. Take this shit to /pol/ or whoever else needs to hear it. This is probably the last place

>>55484773
Gold absolutely has no value on its own. And even if processed it again has almost no use

Also even in your example labor takes precedent from capital as you had to perform labor before it aquired any value("pick" it up/mine it)

This gold example is actually like the worst example you could have given since gold is actually almost useless. A more accurate example would be you walk in a field and notice a carrot sprouting from the ground and you pick it

>>55484257
The only real solution to this is to start your own business, then you can WORK without the humilation of being a wagie. The PROBLEM you stupid FAGGOT is that it's basiclly against the law to RUN A BUSINESS. That is because of TAXES, and REGULATIONS, on top of BEING FORCED TO UILZIED PAPER FIAT DEBT NOTES to transact with. The only true way to le seize the means of production is to seize the means of our own production, via each person having there own business (with exceptions of apprentices etc etc). This used to be standard, but the government backed monopolies have become so powerful even a fucking carbonated syrup water company can be worth over 200 billion because of the grocery list of regulations they have lobbied for.

Why can't you commie retarded fucks wrap your head around the fact that your job woes stem from lack of competition, yet your answer to this problem is to create the biggest monopoly one could ever conceive.

>>55484897
>Sounds like you don't know much about the fed

do enlighten me.

>>55484897
>The leadership is appointed by the federal government.

yet nonetheless they are a private bank. you can't dispute that, it's public record.

i don't want to sit in this house of cards.

>>55484892
>However natural ecosystems operate with maximum efficiency and recycle perfectly the maximum amount of energy through minimization of exploitation between its members and that is why natural ecosystems are extremely stable and long lasting.
Let's see how much time it's going to pass before any of you ask themselves "but how exactly that ecosystem reached such perfect equilibrium and optimization?".

Markets are efficient because every single individual think for itself and is subjected to evolution.

>>55484937
I think all their hangups stem from wanting everyone to be just as enslaved and miserable as them.

They claim to hate the system but everything they do is in favor enabling big business. Most of them are probably coming here from their McDonald's shift or low pay factory jobs so are understandably upset, but they're pretty much just enabling the system they claim to hate.

It's funny because at the end of the day I think they're right, workers shouldn't be such gay little bitches and realize that they have way more leverage if they just band together instead of letting themselves get exploited. But they don't. They never fucking do 99.9% of the time. You basically have to beg normalfags to unionize, and even then many of them don't have the cognitive ability to rationalize that doing so is in their best interest.

>>55484241
You honestly never have been out of your mother's basement! You think rubber trees are planted on land tilled by hand? You think rubber is transported in banana leaves? You think iron is scratched out of the earth with fingernails? You think power poles are erected by hand? Ditches dug by hand? Copper cables woven by hand? Copper smelted in campfires? Surely this is bait. You can't possibly be this ignorant of how the world actually works.

>>55483444
Yeah but the individual laborer did not create all the labor that went into the business. Your average wagie at McDonald's did not start and expand the entire business. All labor is inherently an investment.

>>55484241
>Managers are labor
Okay, you were going good until you got to that part. A lot of "manager" jobs are fake do-nothing jobs.

>>55484913
Then give me your gold, pal.

Nothing has value as long no one cares about it, and yet people do care about gold even more than yesterday since we need it for shielding and circuitry.

>>55483636
Never met a commie I couldn't out-think, out-fight, and out-shoot. Of course there is always a first time. But I owe the gods a death and better to die fighting commies than in bed in some nursing home. So bring it, fatty!

>>55484871
Yeah the only way to do that is to exploit some one else faggot which is why you're a worthless scum bag.

>>55484878
>All he does is call people stupid

>Pointing out my cope isn't an argument!!!!

haha

>>55485021
You work a shit job and I don't which means that you support the system you pretend to hate more than I do. There's nothing you can say or do argue with that simple fact, so you are a faggot and I win.

>>55485006
>Of course there is always a first time
For me, they are getting less and less sophisticated as time passes. look above your post it's 90% feeling and rethoric what they say.

>>55484941
Natural ecosystems dont need time to "reach" maximum efficiency, they operate in maximum efficiency from the get go and at all times.

So another way for your smooth brain to understand this is if you imagine the physical world as a simulation right? A simulation operates with a strict algorithm/script. This script operates at maximum "efficiency". Now when man comes along and attempts to make "something" more efficient this can only result in creating a second simulation. A simulation within a simulation. The second simulation ALWAYS runs like SHIT. Introduces IMMENSE waste that otherwise didnt exist originally.

Practically what that means is that the purpose of the original simulation (which is facilitating life, the universe solely exists to create life, no machine can surpass the complexity of biological machines, they operate in infinite complexity) fails. The original purpose of the universe fails and life fails. So life dies which is what we are currently witnessing

>>55485000
Do you guys not understand what labor is cause you have never had to actually do any or...?

>>55485033
I understand it more than you do. I learned a long time ago that it's a losing game where you're better off not playing at all.

>>55485031
>Natural ecosystems dont need time to "reach" maximum efficiency, they operate in maximum efficiency from the get go and at all times
HEY i found someone that is worse than a creationist.

I'm not sure i'll be able to hold all these projections and gay intellectualism
>This script operates at maximum "efficiency"
A fitness function does not operate at "maximum efficiency", it merely dictates the circumstances that makes living beings or any self-organizing system change in order to reach what is best solution to a problem. Your simulation within a simulation is pseudointellectual bullshit because a simulation that goes on in the mind of an intelligent being is something trying to be as realistic as it can to the material world.

Your reasoning is nonsense.

>>55484817
>People (monoplies) exist that mine gold out of the ground retard. No one is panning for gold anymore except dumb fucks
And you wonder why you're so poor and helpless. Kek.

>>55484892
>owever natural ecosystems operate with maximum efficiency and recycle perfectly the maximum amount of energy through minimization of exploitation between its members and that is why natural ecosystems are extremely stable and long lasting.
The herd of 10,000 horses decimating australias ecosystem disagrees with you. Many such cases.
And before you argue that these horse will eventully die and their biomass recycled, so too will everything manmade over a long enough timescale. Yes, even those non-degradable plastics will decompose under enough pressure and heat. Even "stainless" steel has a maximum lifespan.

>>55485033
Whennyou invest energy and material into making something that is useful or could be useful to you in that situation? Yes, it's a common way to produce circuitry which makes you want to afford gold as well, IN THOSE circumstances.

>>55485028
I work an awesome job lmao. It's kind of like sky diving its pretty bad ass. You can't understand the value and pride that comes from actual work ause you are a miserable incel who will probably wind up shooting up a school in the net few months. Just kill yourself first and save us all the trouble.

You aren't "heckin fightin the systemarino bro" by being a lazy retarded neo nazi. You are just exploiting people who actually have to work which is more akin to how the system functions and has functioned since the agricultural revolution.

Work is natural though you dumb faggot lmao. Jesus christ you people are pathetic.

>>55483994
>if everyone tomorrow started to like eating shit. You'd have poo vendors on the street selling it straight from the tap

>>55485073
You clearly don't understand anything and you are deff to young to lurk here.

>>55485117
LMAO yeah ok. Whatever you have to tell yourself. Post portfolio.

>>55485133
>>55485140
You work a shit job and I don't. You are legitimizing the system you claim to hate. You're probably going to end up shooting up your workplace in a few months.

>>55483444
So PoW is the only actual value is what you're saying right?

>>55485160
kek

>>55483444
>all wealth comes from labor
the labor theory of value is nonsense though, so your point fails at the first assumption.

>>55485133
Why every single communist i met is a successful, high grade premium cocksucking escort in charge of everything and financially successful (at least by claim) and yet at the same time they have no resources, no organization, even less the power and will to make a revolution?

How many commies to screw a lightbulb? Someone will do that, eventually.

>>55485133
>exploiting people
>incel
>neo nazi

You're a dumb wagie bootlicker for the regime and you're too dumb to realise it. Jesus christ lefties are stupid. Almost all "work" and almost all industries that currently exist are bullshit and do not contribute to the betterment of humanity. Thinking there's some deep meaning in being a Team Leader, or HR manager, or Product Coordinator is peak midwittery. You don't even realise that you are less free than people who worked far less than you in the past, before the current jewish economic paradigm. Go ahead and call me a nazi you fat tankie wanker.

>>55485181
>>55485206
It's funny, because if anything he just said is true then I have no idea what the fuck his point is.

>THIS SYSTEM OF EXPLOITING PEOPLE IS EVIL!!!11
>By the way the situation where I'm getting exploited is okay because at least I enjoy it lol

If you cooperate with the employment system, then you are objectively doing more to enable it than I ever will.

If you enjoy it, then what are you so mad about?
If you don't enjoy it and want something to change, then propose an alternative.
>Alternative? Uh duhhh ummmm YOU SHOULD GET A JOB!

All you're doing is posting impotent rage online while legitimizing the fake and gay employment system that you ostensibly had the brains to figure out is exploitive (more likely, had it pointed out to you by someone smarter

>>55485123
I never claimed otherwise. Man will most definitely perish and ecosystems will reach their natural equilibrium and efficiency again and suffering and enjoyment will reach an equilibrium (currently only suffering exists that is why life dies and ecosystems die)

My point is that all that we are currently doing and all the premises of capitalism for infinite "growth" are entirely pointless. There is no progress to be made, nature is already perfect as it is, there is no secret "meaning" to life other than to experience things and other creatures, a meaning that we destroy with every day thst passes as we make our ecosystems and environments extremely hostile, dangerous and unpleasant.

>>55485153
What do you mean you dont have a job? If you dont already possess capital/property(that comes through exploitation) that allows you to have "passive" income (be a parasite) then the system will directly or indirectly execute you

Also why is it that you dumbfucks always conflate labor/work to a job lmao the distinction is so simple like wtf

>>55485181
No what is really is is you are to stupid to think outside of binaries so everything you think about has to be in relation to some other half brained idea that makes little to no sense. I can like the thing I do and I would still do the thing I do outside of an economic system that exploits me but that doesn't make it not exploitation cause I have to support a CEO who makes 14x my wage. Seriously, our CEO makes like 900k a year off my labor.

You people are so pathetic you cant think bigger than your immediate interest and you probably are convincing yourself you're right because cognitive dissonance.

>>55485231
I have to work to live. I don't have a choice. You get to live off your parents (and sooner than later reality is gonna come fuck you in the ass) but you don't understand because you have everything given to you by your parents.

The alternative is an economic system where everyone works according to need and democratically and methedologically plans the economy out together. If we all put in we end up all working less over all. The same basic shit applies at most job sites too. At least ones with actual adults working.

>>55485316
What exactly are you trying to say? Should we have this exploitive labor system or not? Make up your mind.

>>55485256
>My point is that all that we are currently doing and all the premises of capitalism for infinite "growth" are entirely pointless. There is no progress to be made, nature is already perfect as it is
At this point you should stop for a minute an ask yourself "what is the point of life"?

You could walk in any continent, piece of land and notice that every single one of these places has some sort of tree, and grass on the ground. Now, wasn't that tree, those grass and the ancestor of those plants following a logic of "infinite" grow, spreading as much as it can in every land on this earth?

why bacteria is everywhere, why birds are everywhere, why they keep divesifying and what makes them keep going?

>>55485346
You realize entropy is totally contradictory to your rose tented ideology right?
Capitalism grows faster than the planets ecosystem can regenerate itself. You people have no concept of scope and think everything just works alone in a perfect bubble but it doesn't.

The earth can shed off the energy created by humans fast enough which is why the earth is warming up. God damn you people are fucking DUMB

Organizing Labor and Capital into productive output IS Labor, but at some point "Organizing" becomes "Rent-seeking" and needs to be curtailed lest the entire enterprise of the Market be undermined disastrously.

>>55485338
And with this final cope, admitting that you're wagie number #965290 i say good night, it's getting late and i don't have the need to listen to more projection and rethoric.

>>55485370
Your mother has your tendies ready for your worthless miserable existence.

>>55485369
Finally some one with an actual functioning brain.

>>55485338
>I have to work to live. I don't have a choice.
Then suggest an alternative. “DURR GET A JOB” is not an alternative. I am with you, there ought to be an alternative.

>The alternative is an economic system where everyone works according to need
This isn’t really an answer, it’s something you just copied from online somewhere. What does “according to need” mean practically? In other words, what does it look like in the real world? Force people to dig ditches because it was democratically decided that we needed it? Withhold community benefits (I.e. you starve to death) if you refuse your “democratically chosen” labor? That’s practically how it already works, only with what we are currently doing, we don’t pretend it’s good and non-exploitive.

And if that’s not what you mean, then what is? Again, “get a job” is not an alternative.

>>55484241
I assume you know that most of the world's capital is held by public corporations, which means that the business is actually owned by shareholders, which includes pension plans, mutual funds, 401k and other retirements plans, insurance companies, and MANY individuals. Corporate executive rarely could be said to own the company.

So any laborer smart enough to save anything for retirement or who is provided a pension by his employer or who has a whole life insurance policy or a mutual fund actually OWNS the means of production himself.

Retarded commies think modern businesses are owned by Scrooge McDuck.

>>55485256
>ecosystems will reach their natural equilibrium and efficiency again
Until another natural disaster, or mutational advantage, imbalances them again.
>extremely hostile, dangerous and unpleasant.
What is hostile to one lifeform is advantageous to another. Life survives regardless. Even if 99% of all life was wiped out tomorrow, the survivors would repopulate.
This idea that the global ecosystem is delicate is absurd. Highly specified ecosystems are delicate. Not the global ecosystem.
And this has nothing to do with capitalism. Stop inserting your fantasy antagonist. This has occured since the dawn of man under every political and economic system. Capitalism is simply the preferrence for now, and it's arguably not even the most exploitative and also arguably the most efficient.
For example, The Egyptians were a theocratic/monarchy, not capitalist at all, yet they exploited their environment all the same. Constantly rebuilding cities and quarrying/mining for glory projects, not utility projects. If their system had simply been scaled up, it would be far more damaging than capitalism. The same would go for Hittites and Mongols. Both societies required massive amounts of iron and horses respectively. A mongolian could not be considered worthy without multiple horses. If their society was to be transposed into current time we would require over 16 billion horses.

>>55483444
I'm more of a national socialist kind of guy

>>55484136
>deff don't think people should en mass be able to skirt by like they do under capitalism d
How is that capitalism? Welfare, unemployment benefits etc are all social democratic policies. Not free market whatsoever.

>>55485366
>for some reason thermodynamics is contradictory with the concept of evolutionary system trying to get better such as being more efficient.
>Capitalism grows faster than the planets ecosystem can regenerate itself
Yes, it's called industrialism, state planned economies also polluted and fucked up the ecosystem even more due to poor planning.

Congratulations, you got 2 more iq points.

>>55485389
God damn you are fucking STUPID

Labor =/= having a job

They are not the same thing you fucking IDIOT. hahaha GOD DAMNIT LMFAO

I didnt "copy my answer" from somewhere I actually study and read economics just because you are to pea brained to actual imagine a world outside of your moms basment doesn't mean anything.


People ALWAYS will have to work to some capacity to support society lest we fall as humans and become extinct or become cave dwellers again. Capitalism and having a job is a temporary blip in history.

>>55485340
Where or how did i even imply that we should have exploitative labor systems in any of my replies lmao

>>55485396
That's literally just pro capitalism. You are a pro capitalist right winger who supports the system of capitalism but you have just deluded yourself into thinking you don't.

>>55485412
Okay, we’ll all just keep our jobs but call it labor instead. That’s what you’re proposing, because you did not mention a single other thing that would change. That’s how retarded your ideology sounds.

>>55485375
At least i have a mother, pseudo intellectual twink.

>>55485407
Yes no shit state planned economies in the 1920's pooluted as well, but, yes this is 2023 and we have better technology and have better ideas than they had back literally 100 years ago. You aren't making any point you're just repeating what the same retarded peer group you are surrounded by has been repeating.

But nice projection about how fucking stupid you are.

>>55485412
>I actually study and read economics
marx is neither of those 2 things

>>55485429
Right whatever aren't you going to run away?
Whatever helps you sleep at night ig.

>>55485346
Growth for growths sake is literally the function of a cancer cell. Living beings dont just "grow/breed". They do all the things in between as well. Rest, play, socialize, explore and yes they do fight and breed as well but not just that.

Cancer can appear in living beings yes. The simulation like all simulation is not perfect. There are bugs and exploits. After all biological machines possess infinite complexity, it is bound sometimes to go array. But what man has done is take the exploit and magnified it 100x

>>55485421
Wrong, it's socialism but for pro-social and civilizationally competent white people only.

>>55485438
>Economics is when it agrees with what I already believe!!!!

Just so everyone knows, this leftoid faggot retard is actually proposing that we keep the exploitive system we already have but call it something else.

>>55485448
It is necessary for Gaia to reproduce.

>>55485458
No not wrong at all dress it up how ever you want you. Socialism has never had anything to do with "social science" as a concept lmao. This thread really is setting the bar so fucking low for burger education. It's not socialism you are not a socialist and you are a pro capitalist king supporting rube.

>>55485378
Yeah and it's still not you, 50+ pbtid freak. Marx was a quack. Contemporary laissez faire capitalist fundamentalists are in fact retards who lost the plot of their own school completely, but that doesn't mean Marx offered much in the way of poignant critique or practical remedies.

>>55485467
Just so everyone is aware this anon is to stupid to actually comprehend what is being said.

>>55484705
Absolutely based for using her real name.
Also weird energy for you using her as your goto rich "it" girl.
Just say Willow Ryder or Alice Delish next time.

>>55485434
>yes this is 2023 and we have better technology and have better ideas than they had back literally 100 years ago
Like not killing all the birds? they farmed for thousands of years and forgot a simple concept. Also ideas and incentives are 2 different things.

You should check your blood pressure, you're blowing up like a retarded entitled commie chud.

>>55485389
>force

You literally just answered your own question. The alternative is just that. Remove force and coercion from the equation. If labor becomes deprivatized, force and coercion is removed from the equation and production is managed democratically in horizontal self organizing societies instead of top down heirarchical authoritarian ones

>>55485480
Right right, but at least you understand basic shit like that ownership of labor is rent seeking to a degree. I know you aren't smart enough to actually understand that it's inherent, but, you're thinking.
Good for you.

>>55484605
>80% of species have gone extinct in two HUNDRED years.

Citation needed.

>>55485476
Wtf are you talking about mother earth doesnt reproduce you dumbfuck. Gaia is gaia it doesnt grow

>>55485487
Lmao are you projecting cause I deff don't give a shit what a bunch of retards on biz think.
Keep attacking your strawman that wont keep capitalism from destroying the ecosystem.

>>55485460
>it's actually when it agrees with MY beliefs
>no i will never make comparison with other ideas

>>55485503
Imagine demanding a citation for such a well known fact lmao. https://wwf.panda.org/discover/our_focus/biodiversity/biodiversity/

>>55485504
>gaia doesn't grow
Gaia grows 5-300 tonnes heavier per day. God is an architect.

>>55485506

No one said that. i read right wing economists too. You are just an idiot. Cope and seethe

>>55485507
No i'm making fun of you because you seem incapable of a civil discussion without going full sperg.

>>55485481
>what is being said
You're not "saying" anything. Your posts are a mess of contradictions. You have not proposed ANY alternative at all. So far all you have said was:

>employment is exploitive
>by the way I love my exploitive employment arrangement
>let's democratically choose exploitive employment arrangements but call it something else

Can you suggest an alternative to "perform this labor or starve to death" right now?

>>55485532
You will always be a retard-winger, thou.

>>55485536
What are you talking about? Read the thread, or, anythread like this and you will quickly find that one mention of capitalism being bad in anyway and its sycophants are quick to call everyone who disagrees with the names. You live in delusional and besides just because I am being mean to your little feelings doesn't make me wrong, so....

>>55485538
yes I have: I have said several times; Democratic control of production by the working class at an economic level in a planned economic system. You're to stupid to understand the difference between work and labor.

>>55485528
Still i dont understand your point. What does growth for growths sake achieve in any type of context? Like what did you even mean "is required for gai to reproduce"? Reproduce what?

>>55483444
You're right, that's why AI is the next revolution. 100% work, 0% time consuming. This is why projects like shibart are mooning

>>55485555
checked
Reproduce itself of course. It takes a large amount of resources for an organism to reproduce. Some even die in the process yet can spawn millions.

>>55485147
>Post portfolio
>also I'm anti capitalist
Lol, post yours.

>>55485553
>to stupid
Kek

>Democratic control of production by the working class at an economic level in a planned economic system
Meaning? Perform this labor or starve to death? Or something else? So far you have not said anything in favor of anything changing at all.

>>55485498
I said that Markets can be undermined by rent-seeking behavior, when the Labor involved in owning/organizing Capital gives way to the parasitism of mere ownership. One can coherently and properly acknowledge the fact that the emergence of an ownership-class is just as much a threat to a thriving and healthy Market as an overgrown bureaucratic-class without ever needing to subscribe to a single line of Marxist drivel or flying off into wild quasi-religious ramblings about muh Earth. KYS

>>55484791
>workers democratically control the workplace
Hi, I just got hired, I vote that we liquidate the company's assets and split the proceeds with the workers. Thanks! Off to get a new job and do the same thing with another company <3

>>55485548
>one mention of capitalism being bad in anyway and its sycophants are quick to call everyone who disagrees with the names
As much as you guys want to flay alive anyone who slightly makes more than you, inciting strikes and violent revolutions?

It happens when you're a terrorist, or had a terrorist past.

>>55485579
If you don't work you should receive the bare minimum, Food water shelter, bur, you shouldn't be allowed to partake in luxury items created by society. That's my opinion, but, in a world where we had an actual democracy we would be able to democratic discuss these things like adults.

Again I never said once that we would magically have to stop working all together.

>>55485596
I know what you said faggot.

>>55485598
Do you not understand how democracy works or something?

>>55485579
Also, kek, >you made a typo so haha yer dumb

Deff you are a minor.

>>55485603
>66 pbtid
Forget everything I said. Get a job you fucking nigger, you're one of those people who needs massa to keep him busy or he loses his mind.

>>55485614
It's my day off fag. Read the thread

>>55485025
I accept your concession. I guess >>55484846 broke your little commie brain, no wonder you are ngmi

>>55485603
>If you don't work you should receive the bare minimum, Food water shelter
>5 years later
>dude, why is my economy failing??

>>55485603
>If you don't work you should receive the bare minimum, Food water shelter, bur, you shouldn't be allowed to partake in luxury items created by society.
We already have this, people who don't want to work get welfare and food stamps. There is also unemployment for people who lose their jobs, as well as employment assistance for people who need help finding jobs. Or maybe you live in a county without such social safety nets, like a third world country or something?

>democratic democratic democratic
People voting for you to be exploited means you still get exploited.
Yes technically with your vote you have a small say in who and what gets exploited. But for the average person nothing changes. It's still a shit deal. Perhaps even a worse deal than we currently have.

>>55485610
>you made a typo so haha yer dumb
I agree, your typo means you're dumb lol

>>55485579
Why are you strawmanning? Our CURRENT system is perform this labor or starve to death. Our point is that labor is managed horizontally democratically in self organizing communities that lack authority, force and coercion and top down heirarchies(no bosses, no wage labor, no classes, no private property, no corporations). Practically this takes many forms. Factories managed and owned by coops. Unions and assemblies. Literally "from each according to ability, to each according to need"

Multiple people including me have answered your question yet you keep saying we offer no alternatives as if communists havent been articulating these ideas and systems centuries now. Go read a book lmao

>>55485598
>hired
>company

Man you are literally braindead huh? There is no "hiring" in communism nor companies/corporations and neither money to "liquidate" workplaces

>>55485643
The only real communist i know was paid in bricks for his labor.

>>55485669
Still better than getting paid in green paper

>>55485643
>Our CURRENT system is perform this labor or starve to death. Our point is that labor is managed horizontally democratically in self organizing communities that lack authority
You're practically saying:
>our reality must bow down to us in order for our system of heckin cooperation and without any clear chain of command, or incentive to be maintained can actually exist
The thing is you will always end up with a boss, or a master if you like, due to the strong need of specialization and division of labor our industrial system has.

>>55485656
Yes, because everything for no reason at all is allocated by the strong force of friendship.

I am sorry, i am doing my best, but this ride will not end well, doesn't matter if i lose.

>>55485525
The WWF is not a reliable source. Those are partisan leftist activists.

>>55485548
The system wehave now is not capitalism. It is jewish oligarchy. The market is bsolutely not free. Also competition is innate to all life, you nigger loving commie.

good fucking night

>>55485710
I win

>>55485687
I mean i literally dont care. I dont fight authority and slavery because i aim to get something out of it (even if you actually do get material benefits too but whatever) i fight slavery because it is the right and proper thing to do.

You are free to use whatever justification you want to give up and comply, submit and obey and use any and all tired arguments in favor of it that allows you to suck your masters dick with clean consciousness

>Hurr DuRr itS HuMaN NaTuRe
>HuRR InDuStriAl SocieTy NoThinG cAn ChaNge

Btw your point about extreme specialization and division of labor is actually another consequence of capitalism doesnt have much to do with industrial society. Technology and "industry" can very easily exist in communism too (although it will obvioisly take other forms)

>>55485641
Not only is that not the same thing as what I am talking about but it's not even close. The government should have no real job other than handling criminals and people who violate the law and such. Also there's barriers to entry for people to be applicable for these programs. It should be available for all people. That still has nothing to do with the fact that workers shouldn't have their labor exploited by some one who magically owns something and thinks that should give him the right to a portion of what I produce.

>people voting for you to be exploited
What are you talking about? If everyone at the job site has a vote and is equivalent in authority (that is to say none) then how is any one exploited?

You are failing to convince me this is some how not better than one omnipotent owner with totally ubiquitous authority is better.


I think that you thinking that me making a typo makes me dumb makes you dumb so now what.

>>55485606
Yes I do understand how a democracy works, it's when a bunch of people gang up on a minority. "Democracy in the workplace" is code for "run the company in a way that most benefits the wagie mass who showed up after everything was built". Leftists can't stop salivating at the prospect of liquidating everything to pay for welfare and you think you're going to be able to keep a business running? Lol

>>55485703
Wtf do you mean? "It wont end well/i lose"?

Also yeah our current allocation and management of wealth through kings is SOOOOO efficient dude the power of friendship is OBVIOUSLY going to be SOOOO much worse than what is currently happening

>>55485677
For the labor he performed he deserved gold bricks.

>>55485705
No it isn't and yes it is.
Your snowflake ideal version of capitalism is impossible also you're a dumb neo nazi which is deff not something we want.

>>55485755
We have human rights retard.
Why do you faggs always run to this fear mongering about mob rule when we have had human rights for like 400 years at this point?

>>55485656
>It's democratic but also you can't choose where you work

>>55485738
>You are free to use whatever justification you want to give up and comply, submit and obey and use any and all tired arguments in favor of it that allows you to suck your masters dick with clean consciousness
This is literally what you are doing. You are licking the establishment's hairy shitty asshole and begging for seconds. You haven't proposed that anything changes for the good of the average person at all. In fact, your idea sounds even worse.

>>55485748
>If everyone at the job site has a vote and is equivalent in authority
Your vote is not equivalent to the majority's overall vote.
If they vote that you're digging ditches, you're digging ditches.

Gay system made for gay people, not a real alternative.

>>55485776
>human rights
Are violated constantly across the globe. Most notably in communist nations.

>>55485780
You can literally work just about anywhere lmao. Do you need some one to tell you where you piss at night? I think we should have regulations on certain industries but basic jobs like grocery store clerk shit than can be done by kids doesn't need any barriers to entry lmao

>>55485776
>your property rights will be secure in the communist regime
Kek commies

>>55485782
Yeah democracy isn't a perfect system but it's the best system that there can possibly be.

>BRO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND FIGHTING AGAINST THE SYSTEM IS WHEN YOU SHIT AND PISS AND PEEPEE POOPOO ON 5CHAN ALL DAY

Shut up

>>55485769
We definitely do though. Mankind has no future with dysgenic leftists in charge. IQ will plummet and all complex society will fail.

Furthermore, racism is worldwide far more popular than communism. Racism will always exist. Communism, not so much.

>>55485794
Shut up boomer

>>55485803
Yeah anyways back to what I was originally saying:
>You work a shitty job and I don't therefore you are legitimizing the exploitive employment system and I'm not

>>55485789
So your plan is that everyone who shows up somewhere can work there, and it's run democratically. So me and 20 friends are going to show up at the factory and vote to sell everything off and distribute to shareholders (the workers)

Your retarded utopian fantasy tells me that you are a loser, because anyone capable of holding down a job that requires intelligence would not say such blatantly stupid things

>>55483602
midwit take

>>55485780
Where or how did i imply you dont choose where you work? It is literally the opposite, if labor is deprivatized you have the option to experience all types of work and join any workshop at any time you please, swap workshops, start new apprentices, learn new trades and explore. Workplaces would literally be open if someone wanted to join and contribute there is literally NOTHING stopping him. Contrary to how things work now where you enter a job and are locked in the same drudgery (carreer)for 70 years.

>>55485805
Kill yourself retard.

The world is more progressive and leftist than its been ever and in a long time. You thinking jews run the economy from the center of the earth is not an intellegent take and does not make you high iq. You are a midwit retard, actually.
You only think otherwise because you spend all your time on 4chan like a retard. You're a deluded sad little man.

>>55485810
Yeah I like my job cope seethe whatever.
Why are you focusing so hard on that when I have still been arguing against the over all system this whole time? Is it because I hurt your feelings? You can't imagine some one doing something or liking something that involves actual work? What is, actually, your deal?

>>55485825
What happens when all the work in a particular field is taken? You have no choice then.

>>55485807
>supporting an ideology which became a laughing stock worldwide 30 years ago >calling other people boomers

>>55485827
>The world is more progressive and leftist than its been ever and in a long time

And it is also collapsing at breakneck speed. The jews are in New York btw, in Wall street and at the fed. Not the center of the earth.

>>55485816
>So what if my totally unrealistic and impossible ideals happen hu?!?!?

Cope faggot, Also, you can't just vote to do shit that will effect everyone. Legal rights exist, or, should exist to prevent such behavor. Do you think laws and rights just go away magically because capitalism no longer exists?

Really you are all so pathetically cucked to the system it really is pathetic.

It's not utopian. Feudal serfs said the exact same shit about capitalism lmao.

>>55485827
>The world is more progressive and leftist than its been ever and in a long time
Now this explains why the global iq is dropping and nothing fucking works.

>>55485852
It's collapsing because capitalism is unsustainable lmfao not because minorities are getting rights you dumb fuck.

>>55485846
What do you mean taken? There are no jobs in communism. If you want to work on something you can do it. There are no limitations. Even if there are 10 million doctors you can still apply yourself to the field of medicine what would be the problem?

>>55485861
Holy fuck you are stupid.
Your dumb ass beliefs are causing my IQ to drop currently.

>>55485874
i don't think it can go below 0

with 80 posts you should really get a real job that is not your larp on the internet

Can't wait for you invred retards to raise into power by sheer moral appeal and crash everything once and for all turning everything in a feudal prison.

>>55485911
He said while the very people and systems currently in power do exactly that.

>>55485891
How do you think jobs work? Do you think once you have a job you just work continuously forever?

>>55485868
I want to do nothing, where's my food? I'll have a large pepperoni with extra commiecola

>>55485864
>not because minorities are getting right
But it is. University education has become a joke due to diversity. Non whites work force participtation, benefits scrounging etc is unsustainably high.

The system is going to shit because of brain dead women and lefties are in charge. This cartel between big business and government as exists today is not capitalism. It is oligarchy. Distributism is still probably the most reasonable alternative. You need a strong middle class with property rights. Communism would be hardly differentfrom the system as it is now. Just look a
at how it always turns out.

>>55485860
>dictatorship of the proletariat now has constitutional limitations
>actually you can't vote to do that Mr worker
Kek, just put yourself out of your own misery, you're ngmi

>>55485936
Holy shit you people are unironically schizophrenic huh

>>55485936
It isn't that you moron. How is it that? Explain how it is that and not that capitalism is seeking infinite growth and profits and thus is driving the planet to ecological collapse? Women aren't even in charge. Most of the high labor industries are done by men and most of the people in charge are men lmao. All white men.

How is it individual people and not a system? That doesn't even make sense from the onset.
It's like blaming the jews. The problem isn;t that jews are in power the problem is that there is power in the first place.


>>55485943
Dictatorship of the proletariat doesn't mean literal dictatorship read the book you stupid faggot.

>>55485843
Then what are you even trying to say?
>the system is exploitive
Yes, I agree. Fuck this system.
>By the way it's okay because I love my position in the exploitive system.
Alright then. You're legitimizing the exploitive system through your participation, though.

>No no you don't understand! I'm only doing it because I have no choice!
That's not what you just said and you're contradicting yourself now, but I'll bite: propose an alternative.
>*angry leftoid monkey noises* seize the means of production!

Okay, then go and do that.
>No, I'm comfortable lol
Okay, then there's no problem.
>NOOO THE SYSTEM IS EXPLOITIVE

You're contradicting yourself so much that you're making it seem as though you don't love your job at all, and you work in some shitty mcdonalds job as we all have been saying since your faggot ass graced this awful thread. In which case, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
>noooooooooooooooo

As I thought. Communists only exist online, and in third world countries where they are exploited by their totalitarian governments.
>BUBUBUBUBUT ITS NOT REAL COMMUNISM!
Cope. Seethe. Dilate. I win. Pic related: it's you lol

>>55485959
I never said the system was ok because I enjoy my current employment better than other shitty non union jobs.

Im done talking to a sub iq retard who cannot distinguish between work and labor lmao.

>>55485948
They are braindead retards.

>>55485868
There is no need for doctors beyond a certain number. And who is going to work in sewage?
>inb4 the people who want to
No one wants to. They will have to be assigned. Who does the assigning?

>>55485968
>Im done talking to a sub iq retard
You're done talking to yourself? Ah so that's why you kept talking in circles and contradicting yourself, you were talking to yourself.

>>55485929
Yes basic needs will be guaranteed. Also no living being can do "nothing". You will be doing things by definition. Resting, playing, socializing, taking walks, participating in your local neighborhood, exploring but most importantly you will be taking care of yourself most likely through the work of bathing, cleaning your personal dwelling, cleaning your personal clothes and going outside to the common kitchens to get the daily bread and then eating it (ideally you would eat socially instead of solitary).

And MOST importantly even in the case where you cant perform the above work due to disability, old age or mental illness there will be multiple care and community workers available to assist you. It is called "communism" after all

>>55485958
>Explain how it is that and not that capitalism is seeking infinite growth and profits
That will happen under all systems regardless of name, because that is human nature. It is why we kill, rape and steal.

Your faggot hippie ideals will never change that.

>>55485987
Eh I don't like the common kitchens part but the rest sounds kino, where do I sign up?

>>55485987
Who's growing food?
Who's turning the fertilizer?

>>55486002
We democratically decided that those duties should fall to you. Also clean the toilets, and also change my sheets, I wet myself again lol

>>55485990
No it wont.
Essentially humans and our economic systems are fighting against the influence of entropy.
It's basically about how well we can manage entrophic decay. Capitalism is very bad at dealing with that effect and a planned economic system would obviously be much better at managing resources unlike capitalism which literally throws away 1/3rd of all food we produce. It's not about perfection but about establishing a better superior economic mode of production that allows us more freedom.

>>55486002
Magic gnomes; The fucking working class people who work.

>>55486007
>>55486007
Or we could have shitty menial labor like this done through sortition. Really you could just use your brain once. That's all it takes to think of something interesting and original.

>>55485997
You can sign up by cutting off your genitals and joining the /leftypol/ circlejerk.

>>55485997
I dont know your personal material conditions and your location. Reach out to any leftist in your area and organize collectively and join the struggle to topple the cancerous capitalist status quo. If you have a job a union is usually a kinda first step

>>55486039
based non retard billed,

>>55486017
>Capitalism is very bad at dealing with that effect and a planned economic system would obviously be much better at managing resources unlike capitalism which literally throws away 1/3rd of all food we produce.
Of course comrade, let's all eat dirt while moving towards the most inefficient, slow and problematic system of production in hystory. socialism

>>55486039
Unionizing is actually actionable, no idea why more people aren't on board with it. Everyone "kind of agrees with it" if they've ever been in a workplace where they feel underpaid, but every time you bring it up it's suddenly "oh no, I have kids. I don't want to lose my job or get in trouble for talking about unions."

>>55486017
>The fucking working class people who work.
I elect to be not in this class.

I like the idea of the working class, but I unironically don't want to be a part of that. I'm more of a creative type, you know, I like to make computer games and stuff. That sort of thing.

>>55486097
Unions have a history with criminal syndicates and subversion.

>>55486002
Like the "marxist" answer to this would be that machines will take up much of the "undesirable" labor and liberating automation from the shackles of the profit motive basically ensures a scarcity free world.

But that isnt the full picture. In true final stage communism with anarchist characteristics people would actually not really want to leave the labor fully to machines and would actually want to engage more with the productive process. Specifically since labor will be voluntary, efficiency will skyrocket and production can take a more "handcrafted" form. For example we could imagine industrial farms operated mostly by machines and pesticides but it is also very possible for people to also cultivate communal gardens and delicate complex ecosystems since it might be a passion project of some group of people or a workshop or part of the community. Fresh produce free of pesticides grown in fertile soil in cities that have completely different form than the one we currently have.

The possibilities are truly endless and the only limit i believe personally is the unimaginable indoctrination of the masses by the ruling classes that has turned them basically into bootlicking zombies like this thread proves

>>55483486
I worked to place it there for you, anon

>>55486113
That is literally working class...when communists say "working class" we dont mean just blue collar construction workers.

Working class or "proletariat" are those who dont own private property and need to sell their labor to a boss in order to survive. "Bourgeosie" are in contrast the capitalist owner/boss class

>>55486198
>That is literally working class
Hmm I don't think so, I mean if I can have my own computer and room where I can be alone (don't have to share the computer with anyone, don't have "the community" being loud and I can make whatever games I want) then yeah that's pretty cool

>>55486198
Why does "Proletariat" sound awesome like Praetorian Cohort, but "Bourgeois" sounds like a word you can only make with your mouth when you're so overweight that your cheeks jiggle?
Come to think of it. I don't even know what language those words are.

>>55486224
My dude if you are working for a living you are working class

>>55486236
>for a living
You mean they'll actually pay me to do it? Fuck yeah sign me up then, nobody even buys my games in the current system lmao

>>55486178
>gives a list of gay ass fantasies without explaining not even questioning if they would work irl
>doesn't even try to make any comparison with a real supply chain assuming "efficiency" will skyrocked against a automation just because he uses a lot of people
It's just solarpunk faggotry.

>>55486317
>Work irl

Communism works in theory and therefore it can work in real life.

That is more than what one can say about capitalism which doesnt even work in theory (and in practice obviously if something cant be theoretically articulated it cant manifest in real life)

Also how am i not questioning if they would work in real life? My argument that automation can basically provide a scarcity free world is self evident i dont need math to prove something like that it is obvious. As a matter of fact we already live in a scarce free world, scarcity is manufuctured by capitalism but whatever.

My second argument is a bit more complicated but i still articulated exactly that is also extremely easy to implement and it is self fueling. If labor is liberated people would be far more incentivized to paeticipate and engage in the production process. You can ask any psychologist about human psychology and how we are motivated and why we act. An environment of labor free of coercion and violence WILL skyrocket efficiency and provide far more sustainable and higher quality products

So do people buy my games under the new system or does money not exist, or does it exist but the state funds it, or is there no money at all but I get "paid" with the same community luxuries as everyone else such as food and shelter?

Do I get to make whatever I want or does it have to be some gay community vote thing where it's decided I have to make an LGBT+ person of color simulator if the community votes for it

Where does artistry end and democracy begin

>>55486370
I hope you know there is no real basis for anything you're talking abour except your hope for it to work out.

Because firat a market system work and it's very efficient, it is so efficient that you even the wasting food problem is caused more by state regulations on food that must be throwned away before expiration otherwise they would sell it at very low price just to get part of the expenses covered.

scarcity is not manifactured by capitalism if anything it is manifactured by the state and state laws on private entities, a practical example the war in ukraine for raising the price of weath and the semiconductor crisis with china cutting business with taiwan.

the last one is pure retardation because people do not work to the bone just because now they're not forced to work anymore, much less skyrocket efficiency.

>>55484090
Lmao. This is like America in a nutshell. Two extremest fighting each other and an opportunists comes in to sells both sides guns for profit.

>>55486406
Money doesnt exist no and people do not "buy" your games you freely share them. Specifically since private property is abolished that means intellectual property is also abolished so you would be able to make as many copies as you wanted of your work and share them with as many people as they were interested in your work.

Also yes basic needs are guaranteed for all. Communists have various opinions on how luxury products and some services can be allocated one popular one being the concept of "labor vouchers". These being tokens you can get from your labour, for example in this case the game you made and shared, that you can later use for luxury products such as perhaps a trip with a luxury car. HOWEVER these labour vouchers will be immediately destroyed upon use thus they cannot be circulated and hoarded and are NOT money.

As for how creative process works and artists operate, it depends. If you are fine doing a solo project then nobody will tell you how to work however you should be expecting community pushback if you publish hate speech like you seem to be eager to do. If you are working with a team then the same rules as other workshops apply as in everyone has a say in the production process

>>55486553
All of this slippery slope because reasons.

>>55486553
Sounds good to me as I see no downside. All I ask is to live in peace and make my games. I am a little worried about the possibility of the definition of “luxury goods” changing, slippery slope as other anon put it

Antifa hardly works and mainly just pimps the government for dollars to run their scam, non-profit business while they plot America's ruin behind the scenes. Everybody want to be a communist, don't nobody want to work no 12-hour days in a factory for peanuts.

Hope everybody's air conditioners are working well, sure is getting hot isn't it?

>>55483602
>And I will go further. Being a good manager is much more difficult than being a laborer. This is partly true because laborers are, for the most part, stupid and lazy.
This is middle manager cope, the best managers I have seen have both experience in the work itself and leadership. So much time is wasted when you hire on managers that don't know how their project actually does.

>>55484257
>Braindead ignorant parasite people dont like JOBS. They love WORKING. WORK is the physical manifestation of each living beings soul
I'm starting to think Anglos are just inherently mentally ill, it doesn't matter what ideology they have they always schizo out like this and clearly hate everything despite their claims that their Protestant Work Ethic makes them happier