/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>55268264
You can see that he's the captive of his role. He is used to "being able to anything" and he cannot quite understand what is wrong. "We're the government" functions like an override in his mind:
>maybe we do print money [do the impossible]... but we're the government [we can do the impossible]
It's the same as with people who own stocks. They can be made to understand that something is wrong with their mental model, but the more you pry, the more defensive it gets, and the more angry the person thinking in its terms becomes.

>>55268264
>a defecating biden flew out of my window

>>55268264
They started attacking when they sued Ripple. The 13th will be an interesting day.

>>55268264
>>55268280
I don't see the big point, they literally do print money and they are allowed to do it because they are the government, and everyone knows this is the case because they don't try to hide it. Maybe there's something wrong with the system but at least there's nothing wrong with his mental model of the system.

>>55268343
Both the mental model and the system are physical manifestations of the structure; if the mental model is unsound, then the structure is unsound, and therefore the system is unsound. They can suppress any given signal (it's as easy as putting a sticker on the warning light in a car; it IS like putting a sticker on a warning light in a car), but they cannot make the system work. The government, yes, can print money, but the government is merely a control-node in the system; the control-node can preserve itself, but it cannot preserve the overall system in which it is embedded. Trying to preserve itself is the thing that is actively degrading the system. Every government thinks it can just "print money" and yes, it can, but it cannot stop the resultant consequences of its own actions.

>>55268369
wow you are very intelligent

>>55268343
>>I don't see the big point, they literally do print money and they are allowed to do it because they are the government,
no, the bureaucratic caste claims to have the monopoly on money printing. That's the only thing which is real.

>>55268343
>and everyone knows this is the case because they don't try to hide it.
no, everybody pays lib service to the claim of the bureaucratic caste, because the bureaucrats keep saying they will put you in their prisons if you print money or even challenge their monopoly by fucking with them, like doing a coup d'etat on their mercantilist and bureaucratic republic.

>>55268383
I'm not really. I'm reasonably smart for a human, but words words words aside, anyone who comprehends that putting a sticker on the check engine light is not a solution to the engine fuming can comprehend what I said.

>>55268391
the problem is
people will drive the car with the tape over the warning light for tens of thousands of miles and some even think its funny, bragging about it in a sort of easy

>>55268420
oops
meant to say "sort of WAY"

>>55268420
Exactly. They cannot see what is wrong with this approach because they are captured by money.
>money is valuable
>we don't have enough money
>why can't we print more money?
The money is valuable because it cannot be printed arbitrarily; money is a token representing value, but it's not value itself. It is a signal, it's not the thing it signals. You can falsify the signal by printing more of it, but you'll just have falsified the signal, not the underlying condition of scarcity (we could, I suppose, say that the engine is out of oil).
If they print more of it, they'll just, in effect, de-peg it.

>>55268391
that was sarcasm retard

>>55268425
You didn't say it accidentally. That IS what they're thinking as they're driving:
>oh wow, this is so easy!
Well, they're not printing more oil for the engine, no matter how easy they say it is.

>>55268439
Well, I did say that I'm not really intelligent.

>>55268343
that's is the literal point. they attack exchanges because they are afraid

why do they never attack banks or like i saw yesterday some mexican running an illegal takeaway kitchen in his house?

Only jews can be a god
What can you do
They killed and exile Jesus ffs.
And gutless mutts can only brag about muh guns

The government is just people. And these people need to fucking stop.

>>55268264
Mate you have the 2nd ammendment for situations like this one. I never understood why you Americans use your right to bear arms to kill innocent citizens and not to ensure a free State.

>>55268264
(((sherman)))

>>55269055
The government model here has to collapse into a much worse state for 2nd amendment "muh guns" to be an actual solution. All amerimutt jokes (and truths) aside, this is still a far better place to live than many on the planet. The only way to effectively implement civilian militia is a full scale civil war. You can't just go halfway. Look at the Jan 6th riots and what's been happening to any of those people they identify. We haven't been rounded up into COVID concentration camps or welded into our homes. Violence of the kind suggested is a heavy handed solution reserved for the worst of cases.

>>55268343
What zoomers don't get is that pre-2008 most people didn't think the government could print money. Fiat money only really started in 1971 when the gold standard was dropped, but when fractional reserve banking collapsed in 2008 that was when the entire idea of base money being scarce seemed to fly out the window. Before that it was mostly lending expansion, so it was "backed" somewhat by debt. The idea that the government can literally just print off dollars without any respect for scarcity is a completely new concept that has only been accepted in the last 10 years, and would be pretty much universally opposed and found to be illegal by most people before 2008.

>>55269055
2nd Amendment just prevents the worst possible outcome, that's really all it does at this point.

When Civil War 2 starts we're not fighting the government, instead we're just killing our liberal neighbors.

>>55269363
They can't. There is nobody willing to take the risk of government debt this time around. The fes is slimming down and the banks, big as small are toxic with bonds they have to wait to mature that nobody is going to buy from them. Every dollar withdrawn from an account is the inevitable coming closer. The dead of the fiat debt system

>>55268264
He's wrong. Only private banks can print money.

>>55269363
QE is not money printing. It's just a means to implement accommodative monetary policy when rates are already near zero. Post-2008 QE did not result in unusual money supply expansion, it only made up for the drop in bank lending.

>>55269018
>killed and exiled
?

The problem is any joker can print dog money, panda money, or whatever, and the people view it as just as good as government funny money. Somehow this is the fault of dog money printers.

>>55269533
QE is expansion of reserves, it is as literal as money printed gets without actually printing physical money
>it only made up for the drop in bank lending.
Exactly the point. Before you had most of the supply from lending, so it was backed in a way by debt, but after 2008+ QE a huge portion of that was monetized now you have a lot of money backed by nothing.

And before you say QE is an asset swap, the fed is part of gov, so the gov is buying its own debt, its lending money to itself then using that money to spend, that is money printing, the debt never exists in the public it only exists as an accounting artifact.

>>55268343
idea: government prints targeted amounts of money to meet specific mandates of development and stability, and within a reasonable range
bastardisation: government prints money
corruption: government prints money out of thin air because he can

>>55269647
Replace "printing" with spending. Printing is just dilution which is a tax on savings and dilutes people's income. Spending should be financed through taxation so people know that it costs money for the government to do things. Printing money just fucks up cost-benefit analysis because if the government can do anything that has some slight value people will think its worth doing because they can just print the money but they aren't considering that there is a real cost. There is a limited amount of resources in the world, printing money doesn't change that it just redistributes resources to the government, taking them away from others.

>>55268264
>Not using the real pic

>>55269607
>QE is expansion of reserves, it is as literal as money printed gets without actually printing physical money
False.

>Exactly the point. Before you had most of the supply from lending, so it was backed in a way by debt
It's always 'backed' by debt. There is no other way to print money.

>after 2008+ QE a huge portion of that was monetized now you have a lot of money backed by nothing.
Wrong. The money is backed by debt, same as always.

> the fed is part of gov
Wrong. It's the political arm of the banking cartel.

>>55269246
>The government model here has to collapse into a much worse
"MUch worse" LOL.

Do you know the tale of the frog and the boiling water? The frog is in the water and they slowly heat the water. The water heats so slow that the frog doesn't realize it's being boiled alive.

The water you Americans are in has long been boiling, and you can't even realize LOL

>>55269909
>It's always 'backed' by debt. There is no other way to print money.
The gov buying their own debt is printing money lol. They sell debt to themselves. This action is a no op. It has no affect on anything. But it gives them an excuse to print money.

The treasury sells a bond, the fed buys it with printed money. There is more money in the supply. How is this not money printing? The fed even pays the interest back to the treasury.

>Wrong. The money is backed by debt, same as always.
Its backed by the gov's own debt. So its dollars backed by... promises to pay back dollars, which are backed by.... Its circular backing which is equivalent to being backed by nothing.

>Wrong. It's the political arm of the banking cartel.
It can be both, the fed is of course part of the gov, its chartered by congress and the governors are appointed by the president and approved by congress, it works closely with the treasury.

>>55268444
Checked and based humble retard

>>55270012
>The gov buying their own debt is printing money lol. They sell debt to themselves.
Wrong. The issuer of the debt is irrelevant, only the credit risk matters. As long as the new money is backed by low risk loans, it doesn't matter what the loans are for. US Treasuries are the lowest risk dollar-denominated debt available.

>The treasury sells a bond, the fed buys it with printed money.
Not quite. Private banks print money by buying debt of all kinds. What the Fed does during QE is the same as what it does through conventional monetary policy action. It incentivizes banks to expand the money supply by reducing the risks of lending.

>There is more money in the supply.
Not exactly. There is more incentive for banks to expand the money supply, but there is not automatically more money supply as a result of monetary policy.

>How is this not money printing?
Because money printing can only happen via private bank lending.

>Its backed by the gov's own debt.
Irrelevant. The banks don't care who the borrower is as long as the credit risk is low. The Fed also buys mortgages and corporate bonds as part of QE. They don't care as long as the market is sufficiently deep and liquid. Treasuries happen to be the deepest and most liquid market in the world so they're the obvious choice.

>Its backed by the gov's own debt. So its dollars backed by... promises to pay back dollars, which are backed by.... Its circular backing which is equivalent to being backed by nothing.
That's how banking works in general. It's legalized fraud and always has been.

>the fed is of course part of the gov
Nope, the NY Fed, whose balance sheet contains the purchased securities, is a private corporation. Monetary policy is wholly owned by the bankers.

>>55268264
>anymore
retarded kid

>>55270233
>Not quite. Private banks print money by buying debt of all kinds. What the Fed does during QE is the same as what it does through conventional monetary policy action. It incentivizes banks to expand the money supply by reducing the risks of lending.
Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. When the fed buys a treasury it literally "digitally prints" the money to pay for it out of thin air.

The treasury has an account at the fed, the treasury master account. This is what the treasury uses to fund the government and pay bills. The treasury sells bonds to the fed (indirectly but this doesn't matter), the end difference is the fed credits the treasury's account with new dollars. And the fed has an imaginary gov debt that could not even exist it doesn't matter.

This is money printing.

>>55270233
>but there is not automatically more money supply as a result of monetary policy
lol what? The fed directly expands and contracts the base money supply by buying/selling assets. You have no clue how fiat works.

>>55269055

>>55268389
>the bureaucrats keep saying they will put you in their prisons if you print money or even challenge their monopoly by fucking with them, like doing a coup d'etat on their mercantilist and bureaucratic republic.
yes and they have every right to do
give up on your anarchistic delusions, Locke and Hobbes don't understand property and neither do you

>>55270012
>Its backed by the gov's own debt. So its dollars backed by... promises to pay back dollars, which are backed by.... Its circular backing which is equivalent to being backed by nothing.
yes that's the point. bank debt is backed by the promise of giving you dollars. dollars are backed by the promise of not throwing your ass in jail for not paying taxes
it's not rocket science

>>55270233
>Because money printing can only happen via private bank lending.
holy fuck you have no idea how fiat money works
open a monetary economics book please

>>55269559
Where the fuck did Jesus live now? Your mom's basement?

>>55271211
Completely separate thing. Taxes create value but the gov spends way more, as long as the gov runs a deficit they are net devaluing the currency, not "backing" it.

>>55271054
>Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Better description of yourself.

>When the fed buys a treasury it literally "digitally prints" the money to pay for it out of thin air.
False. Every dollar in existence was created by a private bank in the course of its lending operations. Every single one. Monetary policy itself does not create money, it only changes the incentive structure of bank lending operations.

> The treasury sells bonds to the fed
Wrong. It sells bonds to banks and individual investors.

>This is money printing.
Nope.

>>55271133
>The fed directly expands and contracts the base money supply
The "base money supply" is not what controls the money supply. The money supply is determined by the lending operations of commercial banks.

>>55271225
>you have no idea how fiat money works
I do, you clearly don't.

>>55271268
>as long as the gov runs a deficit they are net devaluing the currency
Nonsense.

>>55271325
So how much money there is is purely related to how much money banks lend?

>>55268264
WHERE IS MY QUANTITATIVE EATING SERGAY

>>55271394
Yes. The money supply = what the banking system owes to nonbanks. Mostly in the form of demand deposits. Currency in circulation is the other component, but that is wholly determined by what banks need to meet depositor redemption requests.

>>55271325
>Every dollar in existence was created by a private bank in the course of its lending operations. Every single one
Really? So who created physical dollar bills? Come on dude.

>Wrong. It sells bonds to banks and individual investors.
Technically yeah, they auction it but the fed buys them back on the open market. So the end result is the same, except some banker fuck takes a cut as a middleman, I just don't want to over complicate it with minutia like that.

The full sequence is the treasury sells debt to private investors, their bank has to transfer reserves to the treasury's account. Then the fed buys the debt from the private investors. This is where the fed literally just credits the private seller's bank with reserves out of nothing. It just increases the digits.

If you can't understand how this increases the money supply you are just too stupid to get it.

>>55271347
fuck biz is stupid. The gov spend like 6.5 trillion 2022, and only took back 4.9 trillion in taxes. There is like 1.6 trillion extra dollars that are being printed from fiscal policy, that is devaluing the dollar and is currently being offset by fed tightening.

>>55268264
>arbitrary printing for me but not for thee, goy

>>55271457
>Really? So who created physical dollar bills? Come on dude.
Physical currency is printed by the The Bureau of Engraving and Printing at the request of the Fed, which orders enough to meet the redemption requests of bank depositors.

>If you can't understand how this increases the money supply
It is supposed to encourage banks to increase the money supply, but it does not itself do so. Post-2008 QE didn't not result in abnormally high money supply growth, it simply compensated for the depressed lending activity of banks.

>The gov spend like 6.5 trillion 2022, and only took back 4.9 trillion in taxes. There is like 1.6 trillion extra dollars that are being printed from fiscal policy
Government borrowing does itself not cause currency devaluation or inflation. Inflation is money supply growth that exceeds economic growth.

>>55268343
It’s collective arrogation anon, their actual power whether moral or legal is incredibly small compared to what it states.

>>55271533
>Post-2008 QE didn't not result in abnormally high money supply growth
Because there was a complete collapse of fractional reserve banking. You act 2008 was a nothing burger and they just did QE and nothing happened. No one wanted to lend after '08. If the gov just started QE in 2006 do you think nothing would have happened? QE was a monetization of the fractional reserve system.

>Government borrowing does itself not cause currency devaluation or inflation. Inflation is money supply growth that exceeds economic growth.
Government deficits definite are inflationary, whether there is inflation in the end after all other factors doesn't chance that. What are you even arguing, that having massive fiscal deficits isn't an inflationary factor?

>>55269018
they follow satan
who works for God by leading materialists into hell
they are taking every bit of reward here by selling their soul
its not a smart decision, its not seeing the big picture

consideration is either good or bad
which is time; considering.
all consideration is either grouped into one of the seven deadly sins
or the opposite. other than creation itself
things are greed or selfless and so on
those are the constraints of logic and which we exude our principal form from
that is why we have commonalities as human beings.
these principals are the same across all of humanity
therefore it is a provable fact that time is a filter
materialism and the spirit
the human soul is the accumulation of decisions between good or bad
how good or bad a person is is the result of the decisions they make
albeit glory is a very high principal that is important but hard to understand
peace is the best answer until the prospects of glory are stirred up
it is easy for evil to fester but it can only fester on good which precedes it

>>55271585
>You act 2008 was a nothing burger and they just did QE and nothing happened. No one wanted to lend after '08. If the gov just started QE in 2006 do you think nothing would have happened?
No idea what you're trying to say. 2008 was indeed a crisis for the global debt-based monetary system. If the Fed and other central banks didn't step in, the system would likely have collapsed.

>QE was a monetization of the fractional reserve system.
Nonsensical statement. QE is no different from standard monetary policy in its objectives; it's essentially a means of lowering interest rates below zero.

>Government deficits definite are inflationary, whether there is inflation in the end after all other factors doesn't chance that. What are you even arguing, that having massive fiscal deficits isn't an inflationary factor?
There is nothing inflationary about any entity borrowing money as long as they have the means to service the loan.

>>55268264
should have asked him if they're the government and print money out of thin air then who are we paying interest to?

>>55271636
I'm saying you are taking the end result, that there wasn't "abnormal supply growth," and saying that because of that QE doesn't increase the money supply.

But '08 resulted in a massive contraction of lending which would have resulted in a reduction of the supply if QE didn't not expand it. That's what I mean by monetization. The circulating supply was "monetized," meaning it went from being almost entirely lent money, credit, to having a significant portion of it being fed reserves.

>Nonsensical statement. QE is no different from standard monetary policy in its objectives; it's essentially a means of lowering interest rates below zero.
QE is a massive expansion of the monetary base beyond what was needed to set interest rates. QE floored rates at 0% and the fed had to introduce interest on reserves to even be able to set the interest rate anymore.

>There is nothing inflationary about any entity borrowing money as long as they have the means to service the loan.
This is a retarded statement, availability of credit increases purchasing power and demand. This is basic shit dude.

>>55271636
>>55271759
BTW there was "infinite QE" started in 2020 and which definitely was followed by inflation.

>>55271759
>But '08 resulted in a massive contraction of lending which would have resulted in a reduction of the supply if QE didn't not expand it. That's what I mean by monetization. The circulating supply was "monetized," meaning it went from being almost entirely lent money, credit, to having a significant portion of it being fed reserves.
QE, like all accommodative monetary policy measures, was intended to keep the money supply growing in line with historical trends. The whole system requires the money supply to grow by 7-8% per year so that there is enough liquidity to meet debt obligations and support economic growth. If banks write too many shitty loans and as a result have to abruptly stop lending, the Fed needs to take such measures or the system self-destructs. It's a dumb system, and it's inherently fraudulent, but it's the system the whole world uses.

> availability of credit increases purchasing power and demand
But that power is offset by the increase in economic supply enabled by the loan, thus is not normally inflationary. The ponzi only breaks down when banks get greedy and start handing out loans to those with no chance of servicing them.

>>55271878
Don't disagree there, but QE is money printing. Whether its part of some system that supposedly doesn't result in inflation is just false as evident by the fact inflation hit 9% last year and is still 5%.

>>55271989
>inflation hit 9% last year and is still 5%.
A lot of that is either from Covid stimulus checks or corporations taking advantages of supply chain disruptions. The money supply did increase unusually rapidly during Covid but most of that went to inflating asset valuations rather than consumer price inflation. Covid and its policy responses resulted in a temporary power imbalance of workers over employers, and producers over consumers. Consumer price inflation is the direct result of these imbalances.

>>55272065
And who bought all the treasury's sold to fund the mult-trillion covid stimulus? Go look at the fed's balance sheet and it sky rockets almost 2 trillion during march 2020. The fed financed the entire covid stimulus with money printing.

>>55272156
>The fed financed the entire covid stimulus with money printing.
No, because they don't print money. QE was a temporary injection of liquidity into the banking system that diminishes by the day as the securities mature. Banks do print money; any maturing debt is immediately replaced. M2 is already back to its historical trend, as if QE never happened.

>>55271457
>So who created physical dollar bills?
The treasury prints bills as needed to meet bank redemption needs. Since people are using credit cards so much and other electronic payments, the need for paper currency has gone down.

But you're question is premised on a incorrect belief that dollar bills are not bank debt based currency. That is wrong. Paper currency is actually just a check issued by the federal reserve. It is literally written on the bill "federal reserve note". A bank note is just a check. All paper currency is just checks written out by the federal reserve even though the printing is actually done by the treasury.

The old greenbacks that were not federal reserve money were taken out of circulation a long time ago.

>>55272232
Someone post the graph ,,, how is it not historical trend ? BAKA

>>55268264
hey thats the jew who said "if Gamestop investors like Gamestop so much they should just buy a videogame and leave the investing to the pros" and then in the same hearing also said "only terrorists and criminals use crypto" lmao

>>55268439
is the retard here, cuz he thinks you can sniff sarcasm out through a fucking computer screen.
>>55268444

>>55273306
jews are snarky ad nauseum

>>55272232
First of all, its not back to "historical trend" its much higher but the fact that is even is a historical rising trend indicates there is money printing lol

I'm saying QE is money printing which is 100% true, you are saying QT can undo it, yeah I guess, but they will never do this. The gov runs an infinite deficit so they will always have to keep expanding the supply forever.

you should check out https://twitter.com/mong_coin

>>55273329
go back to speddit, retard

>>55273084
>>55273389
> its not back to "historical trend" its much higher
Nope. If it's not exactly at the historical trendline, it will be within months.

>the fact that is even is a historical rising trend indicates there is money printing lol
What? Banking = money printing. That is the very subject of the thread. The banking system requires 7-8% money supply growth to sustain itself. See: >>55271878

>you are saying QT can undo it, yeah I guess, but they will never do this
Not sure what you mean. The money supply has been shrinking for more than a year.

>The gov runs an infinite deficit so they will always have to keep expanding the supply forever.
The government can't expand the money supply directly, unless they go the trillion dollar coin route some day. Only private banks print money. The US government just wants to spend, it doesn't care about the money supply.

>>55268264
if that fact was ever "hidden" from you it's simply because you were clueless

>>55268369
Exactly. Too many see the State as in control instead merely existing within. The State can affect the Economy, but can not control the Economy.

>>55268264
Yes they have the largest military and economic empire on the earth backing it. What exactly does bitcoin have backing it?

>>55269055
We have guns because we're free(er), we do not have freedom because of guns.

The State/oligarchs main means of control stems through Fed funny money, they can't meaningfully control the economy, only influence it through fiat fuckery. We will never be free while we wear their chain of fiat around our necks, but we don't need to dethrone them to free ourselves.

>>55268369
You read dat dayum book on systems theory. I readed it once too. Although muh IQ is round 87 or so their four I did not retina much of that information.

I'd say that after making it this far, there's about a 0% chance of taking the bus out of the shit hole.

>>55274238
While I do have, it have not read it.
But as you can see, you read a book on systems theory, which, according to muh test, you should not have been able to do (well, they don't outright say THAT, but that's the implied (and real) message of muh IQ).

>>55274481
>While I do have, it have not read it.
Had a bit of a snafu there. It's actually funny that I had the actual brain-fart before writing about a brain-fart.
>While I do have it, I have not read it.

>>55271189
Come and take it, faggot.

>>55268264
Billionaires btfo