/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>5514613
PoS is the future

>>5514613
>STORE OF VALUE

>>5514805
It’s a shitty store of value. It has no utility whatsoever. In fact it has negative utility. Gold at least has utility and looks pretty.

Bitcoin is worthless. You idiots just want a get rich quick scheme without putting in any work.

>>5514935
Bitcoin in my wallet sure does look purty

>>5514958
You own something which has an inflated price due to a bubble. It seems pretty. But when you consider that it has no utility whatsoever you might consider cashing out.

>>5514613
when did you realize you completely missed the boat and started rushing to raltionalize it, op?

>>5514613
I was in BCH.

>>5515110
>rationalizing
>real world impact
>of a """""currency""""" that is accepted nowhere except on exchanges that are mostly scams
when did you start rationalizing your fake money?

>>5514935
retard jeet get out of here

>>5514935
> get rich quick scheme without putting in any work.

Like investing in stocks and bonds? Being a silent partner?

>>5515125
that's the idea no coin fag get the profit while you can, too bad you missed the boat hehehe, fag

Just be patient. When all BTCs have been mined the miners are competing for the only reward that is left which is the transaction fees. By that point the fee average is going to sink.

>>5515285
Miners wont be competing for fees, the banks that own Core will be.

>>5515262
sick argument bro.

What are fees like at the moment? I want to move £8's worth....is it going to cost me £30 including fees or some shit?

>>5515380
>What are fees like at the moment?
45$ average
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html

>>5515412
fucking end it

>>5515380
Hello friend, I hear you need to move some wealth. Ill just be sitting here, being the original crypto the started everything.

>>5515431
it's ending itself as we speak

DO I SELL OR NOT HELP

>>5515440
the site I would like to buy from does not support this particular shitcoin.

What advantage does this give me over my bank account? I get interest on that, I can recover it if I lose my password or card, I can transfer money instantly and for free and I can pay for stuff which I want.

HOW CAN THE WORLD VALUE SOMETHING WHICH USES 260 KWH PER TX AT $15K

FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS FLAG THE JEETS

>>5515477
Chill the fuck out, it got to 12k not long ago. Only short if you're buying back in and you know what you're doing.

>>5515178
>investing in stocks and bonds

That is not a get rich quick scheme. You are investing capital and taking risk and being compensated with usually single digit percent returns per year.

>>5515498
Honestly the people buying bitcoin at this price don't realise it's not a functional currency. It's pure FOMO and greed. If the fees are not fixed soon people WILL move to bitcoin cash and alts

Surprise, OP is a salty retard >>5515526

But he's right about btc being complete shit. This won't end well

btc's current utility is getting money into crypto so you can buy alts

>>5515526
Ohh, so if you invested with Google when they went on the market at 40 dollars, that was a get rich quick scheme? So by your reasoning, its only good money if you are investing in established and mature markets.

You know what they call people like you? Poor,.

>>5515715
It was an investment. A gamble of sorts, putting your money on your belief that google offered good products and had potential to grow as a company. It was not a guaranteed bet but it was very profitable.

But here’s the thing. Google produces things. Google has revenue and profit and assets and a business model. Google has utility.

Bitcoin has no utility. It’s a pure gamble on the hope that more suckers will buy after you do.

>>5515526
are 12?
You know before IPOs companies offer their stock to investing firms or just very rich people ''Venture capital'' who buy their shares 1000times cheaper than what dad and mom will buy it at the IPO.
for example snapchat shares during the first private offering were worth 1cent, that was less than 5 years a go. if u sold ur shares during the IPO at 25dollars, well....
the thing is this private offerings are reserved for investing banks and rich people.

You're taking great risks investing into a technlogy that it's just starting and makes no revenue whatsoever from selling their product because most of the time they don't even have a working product, the only difference is this investment isn't limited to the super rich and if one of your shitcoins is adopted, well then you did a good investment after taking a massive risk and will most likely be greatly rewarded.

>>5514613
bigger blocks = less energy per tx

>>5514935
is...is this a pasta?

>>5515770
Ok and guess what?

Bitcoin will never get adopted because it is objectively inferior as a currency

It has
-much higher transaction costs inherent due to energy consumption
-less secure, lots of people have had their coins lost or stolen
-larger transaction time

All of these make it fucking shit as a currency. Not to mention, like it or not governments will never allow it.

>>5515766
I get paid in Bitcoin, I pay my rent with Bitcoin, I send money to my home country with Bitcoin. I've been doing this for the past year and if you greedy fucks hadn't come along I would be doing these things for much less fees.

>>5515958
And why don’t you use cash?

>>5515979
I work remotely, move around and have no USD bank account. I can understand why it wouldn't have any utility for first worlders, but for me this is godsend.

>>5516017
And why don’t you get a USD bank account?

>>5516037
Because I'm not a US citizen nor do I live in the US

Fucking idiots in this thread. This place has become an absolute joke.

Can confirm. I put a bitcoin on a bunch of papers on my desk and they all blew away.. at least the silver bar I paid 2 bitcoins for in jsnuary can be used to bludgeon myself to death with when btc hits 100k

>>5516017
Well when Bitcoin core crashes in to the dirt, you can request to be paid in the real bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash.

>>5516124
If more people adopted it where I'm staying and back in my country, I'd switch in a fucking heartbeat

>>5516124
>>5516124
Deluded

>>5516195
Give it time. Eventually the fees are going to cause them to snap.

Yeah, they were 30 last week, 45 this week. That means next week, 60+ By summer, you will be paying more in fees than your mortgage.

>>5516161
yup you can't even get it from atms at the moment.

>>5514613
OP you don't get how it works. If you increase block size 2x right now it won't use any more energy and you get 2x transactions per seconds. Power usage isn't tied to transaction throughput on bitcoin type blockchains.

That said, bitcoin is shit.

>>5514613
energy consumption is unrelated to transactions per second BRAINLET

>>5515094

This. If you cash out, make sure to do it correctly.
>>5482631

>>5517113
ONE FUCKING TRANSACTION IS 240kWh

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING RETARD

>>5517148
>the absilute state of /biz/
Why are you in crypto if you dont even understand the most basic of blockchains.

If core stopped being faggots and increased blocksize like statoshi intended that could be 30kWh instanctly (8mb blocks).

15kWh if they do 32mb and so on

>>5514613

sounds to me like we could solve all our problems simply by exterminating the Irish

>>5517212
what a fucking retard...

>>5517293
we could solve all out problems if we moved away from pow schemes that make mining prohibitive to the average user and make the currency centralized.

>>5517542
damn, you know your shit.
I appreciate the research you've put into this, and thank you for sharing it. I hope others seriously consider your warning.

>>5517823
well the energy problem is a bitch it's kinda like the rocket equation. pow networks have awful efficiency and thus are greatly limited.

i just really wish there was more in depth explanation about hashgraph and how it works they say "mathematically proven" but i seen no proof anywhere nor specific scenarios how the network would resist manipulation. i really like the idea of mowing away from pow and blockchain which is like a fucking dinosaur already but we at least understand that and it's problems.

>>5517954
here is my problem:
if everyone has to know everything the other knows that means the baseline storage requirement for a node is like insane.

let's say you have 10 million full nodes and 100k transactions per second: 512 terabytes / second before consensus is reached about them.

and this information has to be transacted between the 10 million nodes which i think would require at least log2(n)*s (11 petabytes / sec)

really wish to see how they plan on avoiding this. the entire internet traffic today is much smaller than this number.

>>5518153
damn, you know your shit.
I appreciate the research you've put into this, and thank you for sharing it. I hope others seriously consider your warning.

>>5518242
you don't even understand what i'm talking about right? it's okay. just be a bitch elsewhere. i'm actually looking for input or insight from the others.

>>5518281
The gen-1 coins are literally garbage. Dial-up internet if you want a comparison.

They're slow, expensive, energy intense, favour centralization (mining pools and exchanges) and are generally just there to make the devs rich since they hold somewhere between 20 and 50% of the supply.

Hell, even today Satoshi's wallet holds how many bitcoins? 35%?

PoS is a great step in the right direction, but probably not the end yet. It's the 100kBit equivalent... maybe.

Byteball uses no energy, not a proof of work, not a proof of stake.

Consensus novel, genius.

Bitcoin is old tech, dying dinosaur.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/944720957289222145

wew, be carefull on those pump n dumps lads

>>5518366
yeah but pos is still a distributed voting algorithm right? it's still not byzantine fault tolerant for one and still use a lot of resource and it actually ties up a lot of the total coins in "mining". also creates a question of fairness as it is a premined scheme and easy enough to achieve majority for big financial investors until fiat has value and the market cap is low.

Fucking retard OP.

Bitcoin Cash uses 10% of energy of Bitcoin, yet is 8x more effecient and has 8x more tps.

>>5518281
I didnt even read your other posts lol

>>5518658
problem is 8 times more efficient is still impossible to scale to worldwide adoption.

>>5515937
Kill yourself retard.
We even fucking post this shit, go back to wagecucking so you can afford your .02 btc. Then fomo in at the top of verge, and sell at a loss.

>>5518614
oh boy, you read the whitepaper? i just started and already have issues in the first few paragraphs.

>>5518821

OP facts are wrong.

Scaling to worldwide can be done with Graphene protocol for 16GB block propagation. Energy use is largely irrelevant / decided by market.

Energy does not have to be from burnin oil but can be renewables.

Besides there exist 3rd gen coins with no "Proof of" for security, no energy expenditure required at all - such as Byteball. Or DPoS as BitShares.

Or minimal energy, limited energy use coins such as RaiBlocks, they have not a competition to expend more enegy to earn fees.

IOTA is a Ponzi scheme btw.

>>5519004
>Besides there exist 3rd gen coins with no "Proof of" for security, no energy expenditure required at all - such as Byteball. Or DPoS as BitShares.
i'm reading byeball it avoids the energy problem and pow by reintroducing trust in central authority to the crypto (oracles and witnesses) big fucking win man... big fucking win.

>>5519032
i have to say tho it's very real world and legal system friendly. every structure that governs our lives is based on trusted authority one way or an other.

coins that remove this trust have no real world compatibility as their contracts can't incorporate real world input because there is no trusted source. either every legal database would have to move to blockchains verifiable in a distributed manner or the information can only come from trusted source (which crpytos generally don't recognize as a thing).

oh well we will see how this plays out.

>>5519032

Thats where you are wrong kiddo.

Byteball does not requires to trust the witnesses - each or minority can be corrupt and not trusted!

Only majority of witnesses have to be trusted, same as trusting majority of Bitcoin miners!

Besides all full nodes also validate, the only thing corrupt majority witnesses can do is destroy the trust in the network, just like 51% miners in bitcoin doublespending.

Also remember blockchains incentivize miners until 1 or very few miners remain in all power. Bitcoin already had ghash mining pool controling more than 51%.

Oracles are not relevant for the consensus algorithm.

>>5514613

>STORE

>OF

>VALUE

REMINDER THAT ENERGY CONSUMPTION IS ONLY A PROBLEM IF YOU ARE A LEFTIST GLOBAL WARMING KEK

BURN COAL AND OIL FOR PoW, CRYPTO CHADS DONT GIVE A FUCK

>>5517488
NICE ARGUMENT PoSKEK

>>5519181
>Byteball does not requires to trust the witnesses
just because you trust more than one it's still trustful system.
>Only majority of witnesses have to be trusted
that's like saying only the majority of politicians have to be trusted to keep your interest at heart.
>Besides all full nodes also validate
they can't actually validate what input the witness had at the vote.
>Oracles are not relevant for the consensus algorithm.
they are very relevant to useful smart contracts and again a huge deviation from the crypto philosophy of trustless resolving of contracts.

>>5519267
dude... just what the fuck are you smoking?
>If core stopped being faggots and increased blocksize like statoshi intended that could be 30kWh instanctly (8mb blocks).
>15kWh if they do 32mb and so on
first of all above 2mb block size there would be no discernible change in performance today because the blocksize just reached and exceeded 1mb. 2 or a 100 it's all the same. there is not enough transactions to fill the 2mb yet.
second the block-size bears no relevance to the power requirement to mine it. none.

>>5519247
consuming energy for the sake of consuming energy is a huge problem it's economically retarded. you don't have to be leftist to find it wasteful distasteful and undesirable nigger.

>>5515958
>I get paid in Bitcoin, I pay my rent with Bitcoin, I send money to my home country with Bitcoin
andreas, stop shitposting, we all know you are the only one who does it.

>>5514613
>if it were to have as much transactions as visa, it would use more energy than the rest of the world combined
Literally not how mining works, friend.

>>5519397
It means you cant say HURR IF WE WANT TO SCALE VIS LEVEL WE NEED MORE ENERGY THAN THE WORLD LOL

More transactions per block mean energy consumption per tx go down
The relation of energy to tx is not linear

The extreme energyconsumption is needed to make attacks on the network unfeasible.

>>5518648
This anon knows his shit

Can I ask what coins you are invested in? Me I'm almost all in on XLM, love SCP. Any other consensus protocols you're interested in?

>>5519588
VISA LEVEL*

>>5514935
lol its not a scheme... were just getting rich..

>>5519483
>trusting a dude who was in crypto since 2011 and didnt get rich
Whew, that guy most be great at long term planning. Better trust him
His talks are only relevant for babbies first day in crypto

>>5515125
i dont need to rationalize it, i'm already richer than you'll ever be, and that's just from the few million i've cashed out, ignoring the rest thats sitting happily in btc/eth.

maybe next life you won't let these once in a lifetime opportunities pass you by so easily.

>>5519328

As said, same "trustful system" as any blockchain. Trust the majority of miners bro.

Smart contracs are useful by themselves without oracles without dealing with real world, example prediction markets for assets on the platform, or multi signature wallets.

>>5519328

Witnesses can also be user replaced very simply, bitcoin miners can not.

Whatever bruh, if you like having your head stuck up your ass in old way thinking, keep at it.

>>5519660
Hello Roger nice to see you here

>>5519588
>More transactions per block mean energy consumption per tx go down
every tx needs to be hashed, if you add more more work is required. the number of transactions correlate to energy use. the required energy per block is based on the capability of the miners to process them it adjusts. you can't tweak the energy requirement by including more or less transactions.

>>5519328

Youre also wrong in "cant validate what witnesse input"/ shows total misunderstanding of how Byteball works.

Witnesses dont provide any input, they are not miners, they dont create blocks, they only post their own transactions like any other transaction gets posted.

Full nodes validate.

Buy ETH

>>5519766
i'm reading the paper and i really like it so far i don't liked the phrase "witness" but i have a better picture of what they do now. interestingly they help you choose between alternate realities kinda like what's going on with information today on a global scale. you trust someone who puts his name and reputation out there and his words weigh more than some random nobodies.

it's not bad but i still need to process some things about the protocol and have a feel for the scaling.

>>5519820
>Youre also wrong in "cant validate what witnesse input"/ shows total misunderstanding of how Byteball works.
that's not what i said read again!
>Witnesses dont provide any input
of course they do you just said it. it's a weighted voting algorithm where witnesses are trusted authorities in a way. the protocol doing fine or failing miserably all depends on the "right witnesses"

>>5519593
>Can I ask what coins you are invested in?
i'm not holding any crypto currently. i'm just looking for something i can believe in. bitcoin is fucked in my opinion. never like eth butt they killed my trust completely with their famous undo hard fork.

i want something that can actually scale, is actually fair and provably resilient and preferably trust-less altho i begin to see it's not something that you can all have at once yet.

You need to compare the power drain of tx vs power drain of current transaction systems. Comparing to Ireland or whatever is just OMFG bullshit.

>>5519872

Indeed, go at it, its very "reverse" in style from other consensus designs.

The Byteball implementation does suck, be warned, its in JavaScript using Sqlite3.

The difference with HashGraph is the "fixed" number of witnesses seen on the main chain, 12, which solves HashGraphs Sybil problem as HashGraph can be Sybiled just because there is no set of witnesses but is unlimited.

>>5519918
Lol no, read again

>>5520023
That's me a few months back. Found XLM and was happy about finally finding a project that was legit for the long-term. You might think I'm just another shill, but check the white paper and other resources about SCP. It's a pretty genius solution to BFT, and it works (3 - 5 s transactions and scalability right now).

>>5520098
>Note that we trust the witnesses only to be signs of reality and to not post nonserial units on any shadow chains. We are not giving any of them control over the network or any part thereof. Even for this small duty, it is users who appoint the witnesses and they can change their decisions at any time.
>The idea of looking at some known entity as a sign of reality is not new. It has long been known, and some companies have engaged in such activity, that to prove that some data existed before a specific date, one can hash the data and publish the hash in some hard-to-modify and widely witnessed media, like printed newspaper [6]. Witnesses in Byteball serve the same function as the newspaper.
>Like newspapers, they are well known and trusted. As for newspapers where trust is limited to trusting them to publish the data they are given, witnesses in Byteball are only trusted to post serially, and not much more...

i can live with that i guess, it's much better than i anticipated. this gives me hope that we can really do away with the cumbersome blockchain tech and all pow/pos premined unfair scamshit one day.
now have to see some details about scaling and performance.

>>5520144
>but check the white paper and other resources about SCP.
i will anon thx

>>5520214
Current implementation is shit and can do at most 20tps.

>>5520239
No prob. Hope you have time to get into it, you seem like a nice rational guy

>>5519813
Verifications are not what makes up the energy consumption. Checking a signature usus insignificant amounts of power.
Difficulty is responsible for that brainlet.

If difficullty was lower and you had 32 MB blocks energy consumption would be lower than now even if those bocks were full

Stop trying to sound like you know this shit

Best thread I've read in a long, long time.

Too bad any cryptocurrency discussion place quickly becomes shill and pajeet forum.

Fuck them all, theyre stalling progress, and qe cant have nice technical talk.

Did u know...
>burst is using 0,5 KWh for transaction

>>5520533
>Verifications are not what makes up the energy consumption. Checking a signature usus insignificant amounts of power.
>Difficulty is responsible for that brainlet.
that makes literally zero sense. and is completely unrelated to my statement.
>If difficullty was lower
that's not dependent on the block size at all. and really the block size is irrelevant because there are no transactions to fill 32mb or even 2mb.

i get what you are trying to tell me now the power requirement to mine a block is the function of hashing power available and it grows slowly if transactions magically became more abundant the difficulty per transaction could fall. that's rather theoretical and still not nearly good enough. even $1 fee is insane if you want to use bitcoin as a cash substitute.

>>5514805
Still better store of value than Ireland

>>5520144
What about OMG

>>5521104
Also for
>>5520239

is it foolish to buy bitcoin right now? it seems like a better idea for a newcoiner to buy eth or bth. bitcoin is ALL name and hype.

>>5520822
This.

These types of threads were common in early 2017 through the summer.

What the fuck happened to this place

>>5521205
>What the fuck happened to this place
with dumb money comes dumb people.

>>5521202
>is it foolish to buy bitcoin right now?
yes, it's probably foolish to buy any coin at this moment. The market is not done correcting

>>5515110
At 600 usd if it's still the same guy Lmao.

>>5520956
>>If difficullty was lower
>that's not dependent on the block size at all.

THATS THE POINT HOLY SHIT HOW DUMB ARE YOU.