/biz/ - Business & Finance

Look around and make sure that whatever silver you buy is from a widely recognized mint/refiner. That way if you take them with you somewhere you won't have a problem moving them. Unfortunately that also means they will carry a high premium.

Don't buy coins unless they are the common bullion types, they won't carry any bullshit invisible "collectors" value. Check out some online stores, but common types are Canadian Maple Leafs, American Silver Eagles.

Gold can be a security against some things, so long as you keep in mind that you will end up paying 5-10% too much to buy and sell for 5-10% too low.

Gold would be OK if your currency completely craps out and you end up switching, then you'll have something that carries at least some value, but be aware you will not likely get what you paid for.

spend a small amount on bitcoins every month just for fun

>>549905

Thanks. I have these in mind if it comes to coin purchase in the future.

>>549910

I'm the "the end is nigh" kind of guy. If I don't hold it in my hand it doesn't exist for me.

>>549911
you can hold it in your mind! anyway gramps smell you later

A small amount in precious metals may be alright but for the most part don't be surprised if silver goes down by 50% from it's current price. Silver, and gold's price these past few years has been based on a speculative play on inflation, when the inflation didn't show up in the major economies the players have been slowly shaken out.

Based on the fundamental uses for these metals jewelry and scientific and industrial applications the spot price has a ways to go (downward).

>>549918

Well I never intended to go overboard, but essentially I think that by the time I grow old pensions as a concept will be a thing of the past and only metal will be worth something. Obviously this is still a long way off. My goal for the present and forseeable future would be simply to accumulate a "decent" amount of gold and silver as a kind of backup.

>>549918
Silvers at, what, $15 an ounce, on a 5 year low already - I cannot see another 50% reduction there anytime soon, IMO.

>>549933
It's not that much of a stretch if you look at historical prices.

>>549933
check a longer chart.

>>549923
It's value won't vanish, but it won't do better than track relative inflation in the long run. This is true even if the doomsayer's predictions come true. Less of an investment and more of a stable store of value when compared to currency.

>>549911
That's the right bullion coin to buy if you live in Europe. Just for shits and giggles, try to resell your silver bar.

>>551548
I have chinese pandas. People love those things. I have some A-Mark bars, Canadian Maples, and some numis. The numis are a personal thing. I like numis.

>>549918
Dude the inflation is only going to increase in the next 15 years. For the U.S. at least, hyperinflation is likely, collapse of the dollar is possible. Gold and silver are looking more and more like a sound investment

>>551616
>pls stop
There's no reason to suggest this. The dollar is doing really well against nearly every other currency outside of swiss franc.

>>551598
Pandas are beautiful, but collecting them is very expensive.
I have here 15 troy ounces of silver in coins from several countries and 8 ounces of fine silver (poors gonna poor). I like the random coins way more than the somewhat boring one ounce coins (I own some Maples, some ASEs and one Libertad).
Hoarding silver is not really my focus now; this is kind of an accident. For now I'm wasting my money on my element collection (a weird SCIENCE hobby, you buy and store small quantities of all chemical elements). Some are impossible due to short half-lives, of course, but you get the idea.
Here is something you may find interesting:
http://www.elementsales.com/ecoins.htm
Like I said, SCIENCE.

>>551621
The CHF is getting some traction from the gold referendum there.
The USD is just the cleanest dirty shirt. For now there is a flight to the "safety" of the dollar. Eventually it will reach its intrinsic value of zero.

>>551621
which is why the U.S. dollar has already begun flooding back into the country? What happens when China builds its oil refinery in Saudia Arabia and becomes its chief consumer? We'll be pushed out and our money will be backed by nothing. That's not even taking into account how we've already passed peak oil production. Gas prices and anything derived from oil will skyrocket in price. Once it hits a point that people can no longer afford them, the economy and our entire way of life collapses. Calling this shitposting doesn't change any of these facts. The U.S. economy is tanking, it already lost its AAA credit rating

>>551631
>Eventually it will reach its intrinsic value of zero

"Eventually" gold will reach its intrinsic value of 0. If you're afraid of inflation then buy real assets like equities and commodity producers, not a lump of rock in the hopes you can pawn it off on somebody else.

>>551635
The day Saudi Arabia decides to abandon the petro dollar is the day it ceases to exist as an independent country.

>>551636
I don't remember having said you should go full retard with gold anywhere. At best gold works as a sort of insurance, allowing you to store some value out of the financial system.
Of course, if the world financial system collapses in Western Roman Empire style, gold and silver will be useless for hundreds of years, like it happened then.
Stocks that have ridiculous P/E ratios, that you only trade in the Wall Street casino hoping to find a greater fool to flip them to, are almost the same thing.

>>551636
how will you buy food when you have to spend 20-50 bucks for a loaf of bread? It's already happening in zimbabwe. When the value of the currency tanks because it is printed into oblivion, gold, silver, and other things with intrinsic value become used as currency so that you don't starve to death

>>551638
Ok. Did you not read about peak oil? The current system is not sustainable, it is oriented around infinite growth which is not a possibility given that there is a finite number of resources. The world's consumption of oil is staggering and it won't last. Just a single tire for a car consumes 7 barrels of oil. We don't need to completely run out, we just need to get to the point that it becomes more work getting the oil out of the ground than what the oil is actually worth. I know you're playing devil's advocate but wake up, it's an inescapable reality given the sheer population of people on this planet

>>551647
Just say this: the decline of the extraction rate will make the financial system collapse due to economic contraction.
Interesting times are acomin'.

>>551647
I feel like the jury is still out on peak oil. Wells that were once thought to be empty are found to have oil in them. Moving away from oil will be nice, but I doubt the necessity of oil will ever fully disappear. As for over-population, that's only a problem in 3rd world countries. First world countries for the most part are below replacement which is a bad thing. Hopefully robotics will catch up and start making up for the shortfalls in labor.

>>551664
Yo you are living in a fairytale land. Overpopulation affects you whether you want to alienate those people in your mind or not. We are still expected to pay for the national debt as well as the baby boomer's retirement. Government gets bigger and bigger and spending increases more and more. It simply is not sustainable.

>>551670
Also, we will be forced to invest in the stock market to keep it from failing, so being able to come up with the money for all of this shit and not totally devalue the currency is pretty much impossible

>>551664
>I feel like the jury is still out on peak oil. Wells that were once thought to be empty are found to have oil in them.
This is what the average world citizen who knows about peak oil believes.
Dear God, we are so fucked.

>>551695

>>551695
precisely. So why not buy some gold and silver?

>>551700

Because they're both still overpriced. Gold is WAY overpriced compared to silver too. Silver has way more industrial demand, whereas gold is purely used as some bullshit currency hedge. The $ is strengthening and gold will continue to fall, it will be propped up by institutional investors and will never hit its true floor though.

I bought silver at 20, now it's 15. Should I sell.

If you are a 3rd worlder OP, saving some portion of your wealth into gold isn't a bad idea though yours are still too small for that.

Bottom is in on SLV. Silver will not be going any lower. The paper price also has no connection to reality, amagi is quoting maples right now @ $19.84. I remember when the panic happened you had to pay 5-6$ over spot.

>>549895
I assume you can at least afford a cold damp place to live in? Start a mushroom farm and sell people mushrooms.

>>549910
>spend a small amount on bitcoins every month just for fun

>>551727
>Because they're both still overpriced
Both are actually trading below the cost of production. They are technically underpriced.

>>551799
Cost of production is not a floor for PMs, for a number of reasons.

is it safe to buy silver online?

>>551809
If you buy from a reputable dealer, sure.

>>551811
how do i know if the dealer is any good?

>>551813
Basic due diligence. Look up reviews, BBB complaints, etc.

>>549895
crofag?

>>551802
The only reason it's not the floor is that the prices are manipulated beyond imagination with virtualized/paper holdings. If S ever HTF the cost of production would be well below the actual value.

>>551831
No, it's not the floor because of reserves, by-product mining, and variable costs. The price dropping below the stated cost of production for an extended period just means that some mines will close.

>>551831

Miners generally have two relevant costs- all-in sustaining costs, the costs of buying the land, getting the equiptment, setting up supply lines, digging a mine, and then bringing up an ounce of gold/silver to the market. For gold, this is around $1200/oz, and for silver, it's around $15/oz currently. This is generally reflective of "price required to open a new mine and mining". Then there's cash cost, which is more or less the marginal costs of moving one ounce of gold/silver from the ground to market, unsurprisingly much lower- for gold it's near $800ish and silver has it under $10 or so.

AISC is NOT a floor. All it means is that it's not profitable to ope up new mines- current production still continues apace and is profitable because it's still well above cash cost. Were a metal's price to hit the cash cost it would be a floor, because then they would simply stop current production until prices rose. But as things stand both gold and silver still have roughly a third to fall before they'd hit anything resembeling a price floor.

Pic related, industrywide silver cost breakdown. You can practically see all the shitty mines that were opened up that require silver to be $50/oz for profit- fortunately they're closed down now.

>>551727
Fine then. Fuck I'll just invest in seeds. You're missing the point, it may be overpriced but soon enough it will be one of the only valuable currencies left to exchange. The dollar may be strengthening but it will lose all of its value eventually. I'm not saying the economy will die at once, there will be death rattles where things get a little tiny bit better but will still overall move toward collapse

>>551917
I hope you realize that any societal collapse which reduces the value of the dollar to zero would also mean the same for gold.

Invest in guns, bullets, and non-perishable food if you're so worried.

>>551924
Not necessarily, gold and silver have intrinsic value. The problem that will take down the economy is fiat money, which gold and silver are not

>>551932
>intrinsic value
Not really. Their value comes from speculation / faith and jewelry (mostly) and then some from industrial. The only one of those that you might call intrinsic is the industrial demand, which would get wiped out in an economic collapse.

>>551932

Try again. Intrinsic value is defined as the expected value derived from an asset if you CAN'T sell it- so the NPV of the coupons, dividends, rents, etc. you get from owning it. Since gold is a nonproductive asset, it has an intrinsic value of $0.

>>551924
>>551934
The value of gold comes from the fact that it's only really useful as a currency:
>it's fucking rare
>it has no major uses artificially inflating the value of gold coins through consumption of raw gold
>it doesn't corrode or tarnish - meaning you can stick it somewhere, forget it and still have the same thing when you go back to it
>its soft enough for anyone to test if it's real just by biting it, checking the hue, tasting it, etc
>it's ridiculously expensive to mine
>only has 1 stable isotope which happens to be difficult as shit to hit precisely so it's not nearly economical to transmute other elements into it even if you have the backing of a nation with many breeder-tier reactors
>it has a long standing history of being used as the defacto currency and basis of nearly every fiat currency in history
>it has a hue that differs significantly from other metals (unlike silver, platinum, etc that most plebs couldn't tell from aluminum or nickel)
>It's stupid to think that during a financial collapse people will accept gold for necessary items
Post-SHTF there will be a few months mad-max style but then all the mad-max-wannabe faggots will have gotten themselves shot. You'll still need a gun to trade without getting robbed but you'll be trading in gold/silver because even the people for barter will see the intrinsic value in it, people with supplies to trade will typically have a surplus of that particular supply and will in turn be willing to take a long term investment of gold/silver for after the economy starts to recover. They will need to trade at some point for things they themselves need and if noone wants to trade fuel/bic lighters/bullets/etc for the milk or whatever they happen to have a surplus of they'll trade away their gold/silver. That's why gold/silver always come back before anyone tries to start a new fiat currency system.

>>551937
Ignore that last greentext line, it was a quote from the archived post the rest of the greentext was copied from.

>>551937
I agree with some of that (I would argue with the idea that anyone can test if it's real in this day and age when counterfeiting is sophisticated), but that's not intrinsic value.

>>551621
>>551635
>>551631
>>551636
>>551643

This is the best reason for owning gold

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2014/html/pr140519.en.html

>>551934
>>551936
What this guy>>551936 said

Also just one more point to add, Gold and Silver are the best conductors in the world. Silver moreso than gold, but still

>>551944
>http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2014/html/pr140519.en.html
hot damn errybody gonna want some now

>>551944
>>551950
You realize that basically just means that the European banks aren't going to dump all their gold onto the market right? This kind of agreement has been around for over a decade and it doesn't really change anything (not to mention that the U.S., Russia, and China aren't signatories).

>>551952
in a shit hits the fan scenario like we are currently facing, what would you suggest should be invested in to use as currency then? Because in every country that this happens in, they move over to gold and silver eventually

>>551955
>a shit hits the fan scenario
>currently facing
We're not facing a SHTF scenario though.

>>551961
>We're not facing a SHTF scenario though.
We probably will be within the next decade. The middle class is responsible for nearly all advancement. The stock market is only up because the biggest players are taking massive gains, the small-mid sized companies are having a time so tough they aren't expanding and their employees are certainly spinning up new companies much more slowly than they used to. That kind of disparity is unsustainable.

>>551961
readdd the thread

>>551964
the great recession was just the beginning

>>551952

the agreement was first signed in 1999, coinciding with the beginning of the gold secular bull market

>>551952

also the agreement was signed coinciding with the launch of Euro, the agreement actually means the backing of euro with gold

>>551952

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/wfs/2013/html/fs130109.en.html

>>551963
People have been doom saying for decades, yet it doesn't happen.
>>551964
I have.
>>551967
No.
>>551968
Yet now we've been in a gold bear market for quite a while.
>>551970
No, certainly not. It just means that gold remains a (relatively minor) part of the reserves of the central banks in question (which is easy enough to verify if you check their balance sheets). EUR is no more backed by gold than USD is.

>>551974
okay man yeah you're right infinite growth and hyperinflation as a result of too much fiat currency isn't a thing

>>551978
It's a thing, but it isn't happening. If anything people have been raising deflation concerns.

>>551974
>People have been doom saying for decades, yet it doesn't happen.
But it has happened. The 2008 crash was worse than the great depression along every metric. Unemployment is at an all-time high when you factor in people that have simply given up looking for work (which the labor dept reclassified to say aren't "unemployed"), small businesses aren't nearly as strong as they were and aren't being created in any kind of sustainable numbers, the existing small-mid sized businesses are being squeezed out of business in favor of trying to make "everyone" "equal" in terms of lifestyle instead of opportunity, Russia and China are actually collaborating on an attempt to and might pull off side-stepping the petrodollar, countries have actually fallen that were on par with US quality of life a few decades ago, between the end of QE and the increased (40%) taxes of Obamacare a second dip on the recession is likely to occur between 2015 and 2018 (at the latest), the general content people have with their lives and the faith in their leadership has fallen to soviet-collapse (from the perspective of the fucking soviet's) lows. It's happening even if you are too blind to see it.

>>551979
>It's a thing, but it isn't happening. If anything people have been raising deflation concerns.
Nobody that isn't a fucktarded or corrupt shill has been raising deflation concerns.

>>551979
True I have seen this in my home town, but this does not mean it isn't coming. It will do this a number of times before it happens. In any way you look at it, our current way of living is not sustainable

>>551980
>it has happened
A SHTF scenario where the major global currencies become worthless and gold and silver become de facto currencies has not happened, no.
>>551981
I guess in your view mainstream economists must be fucktarded or currupt shills.

>>551985
>I guess in your view mainstream economists must be fucktarded or currupt shills.
If you're saying your's isn't you've just lost all credibility.

>>551980
this guy's got it. Kinda relieved that some people actually are aware of this stuff. I talk about it to people irl and they just look at me like I'm crazy or they don't want to hear it

>>551986
Actually I'm fairly certain you just did to the typical observer (i.e. someone who isn't a PM-bug)

>>551985
I watched one of your mainstream economists suggest that the best thing they can do is continue to print more money. That's what they're all about because that's what the fed wants them to say and what the fed wants you to believe in too

>>551980
I agree with you. Most people just don't wanna hear it if I ever even so much as bring up these issues. Everyone has a normalcy bias and can't possibly imagine a huge disaster in the making happening

Thing is with economic Decline the whole world will feel it due to globalism. Could this lead to nationalism and a reversion to gold standard in countries everywhere? Idk. I wish more people would at least talk about this and get a national debate going, because there is none

>>551988
>implying a moron's opinion is worth anything
The only people that wouldn't already know what was stated are idiots, you simply confirmed that you are.

Without QE, the stock market will soon peak (if it hasn't already done so).

In the meantime, commodities are going to get hammered of course. I'm aiming at $950 for Gold, possibly single digits for silver- though $15 is still a good buy in price considering silver has lost 75% of it's value.

It isn't buy high and sell higher, it's buy low and sell high. 50% retracement is about right.

>>549895
Gold and silver are a backup, not an investment. You keep them as a savety against a failing state, or war.
They are not a good investment, i repeat.

>security against inflation?
Yes, but only in the long run. People who bought it circa 1 Year ago lost 60% of worth by now and have to wait till the crisis intensifies again.

IF you have the means i advise you to buy silver bullion coins (Maple leaf, double eagle) or gold coins with a purity below 900 (Vreneli, Tscherwonetz, Souvereign, maybe krugerrand) but a high circulation rate. You dont want to own bars (to easy to counterfeit) or collectors coins (price way higher than the price for the actually contained gold)
ONLY BUY FROM A TRUSTED DEALER. At least if you dont want to sit on worthless tungsten filled copies. And only buy coins that are better known. There is nothing worse than having some form of gold but no one to trade with, because noone ever heard of your fancy 2,5 Pesos Hidalgo in your country.

I dont know about your economy, but normally craftsmen are in high demand, because you have to keep your shit running instead of buying a new one. So being a craftsman should be a better investment than stocks (if you dont understand how stocks work)

Download stuff like The millionaire next door, that could be helpful.

There is this saying that the Rothshilds (supposedly) had:
Keep:
1/3 in Gold
1/3 in properties
and 1/3 in businesses

AND NEVER FORGET TO KEEP A CASH RESERVE. Elsewise you will be forced to sell your stuff in inconvinient times.

Thats all vor now. Godspeed anon.

>>551932
>>551934
>>551936

Boys, boys. Nothing has intrinsic value. If there is no demand, then its value WILL go to zero.

What all of you dont really grasp is that gold has no intrinsic value, but an emotional value. It activates a secure feeling in the lizard part of the human brain and as long as we listen to our emotions gold will be worth something.

>>552010
See >>551937
Gold is a valuable thing because it's literally the best thing we know of to use as a currency.

>>552010
There WILL be demand though and seeing as how most people think with their emotions anyway it's a pretty sound investment at this time

>>552009
>>552010
You do make some very good points. I, and I'm sure others, are not advocating dumping all of your savings into gold and silver. Rather, like you said, it would be a good move to dump some of your money into it, like a 1/3 of it. Property is also an excellent investment, even better than gold and silver, just not in cities

Q & A with a survivor of the Bosnian war.

http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-preparedness/a-survival-q-a-living-through-shtf-in-the-middle-of-a-war-zone_10252011

TL;DR: Antibiotics > ammo > food > lighters > plastic bags > gold

if you want to prep for a SHTF scenario, stock up on antiseptic ointment, common calibers, tinned food, garbage bags, toilet paper and a tray of bic lighters. You'll have all you can store for less than the cost of a single ounce of nearly worthless yellow metal.

>>552144
>hurrr gold is useless, you can't eat it
That's pretty much the point of an asset: you can't eat it

>hurrr antibiotics are worth more than gold
If you have useless gold bars from 1994, I'll gladly give you my useful antibiotics from 1994 in exchange

>>552147
>>That's pretty much the point of an asset: you can't eat it

That's pretty much the point of the article, if there is no government, your primary concern is what you can eat.

>>MFW the cost of keeping a stock of antibiotics up to date is less than the commission on buying gold.

This: >>552144

Money's value is in its ability to be traded for goods and services of equivalent value. When you buy shit, you're essentially trading the promise of future goods.

In a SHTF situation, the ability of money to serve as a promise of future goods and services disappears, and this is the same with gold. Why would I accept gold as payment? I don't know the next time I'll be able to find the goods I need, and I don't know if others will accept your gold as payment for goods. Gold's only intrinsic use has been in industries and jewelry; in a SHTF situation, I probably won't be running any industries and won't be needing jewelry.

>>552150
>if there is no government, your primary concern is what you can eat

This is wrong, this is a lie. In medieval Iceland, there was no government, no towns and no money, during several centuries. Food was not the primary concern, and most trades were done thanks to precious metals (they had to weigh it): this much gold or silver against something else.

>>552368
>In a SHTF situation, the ability of money to serve as a promise of future goods and services disappears

No. Real life is not an apocalyptic Hollywood movie. When SHTF, life continues just like before, only in less comfortable conditions. You still have gamblers, doctors, prostitutes and shirtmakers. They keep on doing their thing, and they want gold for it. Look at the history of Middle Age where SHTF was a regular event.

>>551873

Fascinating. Nice analysis.

>>549895
>I just purchased my first silver - one ounce
Ne mi rečt, da si kupu silver bar? Ker to je neumno kupovat. Kupuje se kovance, ker so legal tender, brez DDV.

>pic related. It's what I bought.
Jap, kupu si ga. Da boš ti s tem lahko nardil profit mora it srebro gor za 50%. Glede na to, da imaš davek ko ga kupiš in ko ga prodaš.

tl;dr
Buy coins that are cast as legal tender.

>>552009

I'm a bit confused here. It seems like retailers are asking a lot over the current market price for these coins. What's wrong with bars?

>>552469
>what's wrong with bars
Easier to counterfeit and less recognizable.
>asking a lot over the current market price for coins
Supply and demand at work.