/biz/ - Business & Finance

It does? at a minimum it is equal to all of the energy spent to produce it.

>>54283740
"intrinsic value" is an absolute shit thought by midwits.

Whats the intrinsic value of a glass of water for you right now? For me, it's zero. I'm not thirsty, and if I was I could reach for the water bottle just next to me.
Now, what would the value of water be if I spend the last 3 days in the desert with nothing with me? Exactly, I'd give everything I could. I would beat you to death with my bare hands if you had water and you refused to give me some. Intrinsic value doesn't work.

Because there is no such thing as intrinsic value.

Because the marginal revolution happened in the 1870s, changing how value is determined. It went from labor determining value to value being determined on the margins. Making value subjective, usually a function of supply and demand.

BTC is very sound but you've to admit it failed all of its narratives in the past 2 years. Even Altcoins performed better doing what they aimed to do.

>>54283740
Because big trans cock is a useless oxymoron

>>54283740
Boomers are retards.
/thread

>>54283848
Give this man a Nobel prize in economics

>>54284157
>Even Altcoins performed better doing what they aimed to do.
That's true, all the shitcoins other than BTC, ltc, and xmr aimed to harvest money from dumbass plebs to enrich insiders and VCs.

>>54284196
They OWE me one

>>54283848
hows the weather in india?

>>54284353
I'm whiter than you Pedro, tell me how I'm wrong.
How is the though of intrinsic value important for btc? It is not.

>>54284399
ok sorry, cos you write like one of those quora jeets

BTC is a speculative asset with no intrinsic value,
we are made of water, we need it to survive, why are you comparing the two?

fwiw i agree intrinsic value isn't important for btc,
because its a casino chip in a clown world circus

Utility was destroyed with 1mb blocks and gutting scrypt. Intrinsic value is derived from utility.
BSV has intrinsic value.

>don't try to time the market
>don't sell your btc to billionaires for cheap
>50% crashes are normal, get used to them
>DO NOT SELL WHEN THE MARKET IS TRYING TO SHAKE YOUR POCKETS, BUY MORE
>don't think it's too late, it's never late, FIATs will always keep bleeding purchasing power
>don't short (or you will lose it all)
>don't long with leverage (or you will lose it all)
>don't swing (or you will lose sats)
>JUST BUY BTC, HOLD FOR A DECADE, AND KEEP YOUR PRIVATE KEYS SAFE, OFFLINE
>don't keep your btc in an exchange, buy them and transfer/store them offline immediately, safely, do 100 backups of the wallet.dat or the seed key, again offline
>CBDC (central bank digital currencies) are a scam, a digital equivalent of fake FIATs money
>every project shilling FIAT CBDC or bad traditional finance derivatives is a scam, DERIVATIVES ARE PURE GAMBLING, STAY AWAY
>sats is all that matters, all shitcoins bleed to zero in the long term, if you don't trust me, check 2017-era shitcoin mothly charts
>don't trust services like paypal, or other "you cannot withdraw your btc offline" services
>don't wrap your btc (wbtc/sbtc/tbtc/renbtc and similar are scams, and they will run away with your private keys, while you will be bagholding a worthless erc20 shit-token)
>don't buy btc with funds like grayscale, you have to pay a premium and you are not even sure if they are 100% backed by btc, high risk of fractional reserve and no key ownership, same with us equities / stocks with BTC in the balance sheet like MSTR, you get only partial exposure and you are basically buying with fractional reserve, JUST BUY BTC
>i was buying below 1000$ and i will still keep buying above 40k/50k/100k
>YOU NEED 56 MILLION SATOSHIS (0.56 BTC) TO BE IN THE TOP 20% OF BTC HOLDERS
>0.1 BTC is 10M satoshis, you will regret one day thinking 0.1 BTC was too little to own
>BTC is not a get-rich-quick scheme, it's a don't-get-poor-slowly scheme
YOU ONLY HAVE ONE TASK, BUY AND HOLD BTC
DON'T FUCK IT UP ANON

>>54283740
Because it doesn't do anything. No, sending it to someone isn't a use because they can't do anything with it either except send it to someone else. Even if you wanted to argue that function is its use, how can that be translated into a value for each arbitrary unit of the token? You can do the same thing with 0.0000000001btc that you can with 1000btc.

>>54283766
Spending resources on something doesn't make it as valuable as the resources spent. If I eat a $80 steak then shit it out, the shit isn't worth $80.

>>54283848
>Intrinsic value doesn't work.
Your analogy proves that intrisic value does work though

>>54283740
Okay, a hypothetical. Lets say that the economy goes on a significant downturn and the dollar loses its value. Why would anyone care about bitcoin? I know crypto enthusiasts will say that it's a ''new digital currency''! All I've ever seen is people speculating on the potential price of bitcoin, so that at a later date they can translate it back to dollars. I know we've all seen the pictures of bitcoin atms and 'we accept btc' signs in shop windows but those are few and far between. I honestly couldn't see bitcoin being adopted as a new global currency, although CBDCs are becoming more prevalent recently, I don't think any retail investors would be privy to its benefits.

"Intrinsic value" is a brainlet trap. Rich people will trade ugly stupid art work for millions because they mutually value it. That's all. Bitcoin is the first major decentralized fully international store of value, it is basically "digital gold" and that has utility for many people in many different situations. It has the first mover advantage and that is hard to beat. In order to make it value-less you'd have to convince millions of people to sell all at the same time. Not going to happen. Any more than you could go around and convince all of the world's wealthy that shit on paper isn't valuable art.

>>54283740
It's intrinsic value is based on the fact nobody centrally controls it. Even if people want to, they can't fuck with it. Changes have to be backwards compatible because otherwise nodes may refuse to update.

Imagine if they tried to change the algorithm but no nodes agreed to it? The miners could mine but they'd never achieve anything.

All the other altcoins can be changed easily, AVAX, BNB, LINK, ETH - updates are pushed out and accepted by relatively few involved parties and everyone has to accept what is given.

Anyone who says there is no intrinsic value to something which cannot be fucked by external parties is a nigger.

Even gold can be fucked, it can be taken from you by invaders or your country. But if only you know your keys, nobody can take that BTC. If enough nodes are spread across the globe, no single government or entity could shut down BTC.

Everyone who says it is shit or that there's anything better is simply fudding because they're butthurt they never bought and/or shilling their own worthless shitcoins.

>>54283740
It sort of does have intrinsic value, if you think the billions of dollars of Tether being minted that drive up the price is real money.
But then, that just means that BTC has no intrinsic value since if it did, it wouldn't need that.

>>54284524
>If I eat a $80 steak then shit it out, the shit isn't worth $80
It's $80 plus the energy your body used to turn the steak into poo.

>>54284549
Intrinsic value is meant to be a baseline of value.
Gold will always have value because it's used in some electronic devices, medical cases, you name it. Even when people don't "want" it from an aesthetic or historic viewpoint, it still has a value due to that. At this moment I wouldnt pay any sats for water since I don't want water. After three days in india I'd give my 21 btc stack for some clean H2. What is the intrinsic value of water? What is the intrinsic value of btc? I'm genuinely interested

>>54284477
Yeah, not a native speaker, europoor here.

>>54284549
>he fell for the b8

>>54284524
>bitcoin has a use but that one doesn't count
kek retard
the word you're looking for is "properties", and it applies to bitcoin itself, not units by themselves

>>54284725
bitcoin can't be turned back into energy to power your house with so it is quite literally worthless

>>54283740
because it’s not real
>>54283766
kek no, that energy is gone forever

>>54284157
How so?

>>54284867
Agree.

>>54284787
If you send steel to someone, they can use it to build a structure. If you send wheat to someone, they can use it to make bread. If you send oil to someone, they can use it to lubricate things or burn it for its energy. If you send bitcoin to someone, they can't do anything with it except send it to someone else. It is different from commodities because commodities are used for things. Bitcoin has no uses. Take away its market price and it is nothing. Take away the market price from other commodities and they are still just as useful.

>>54285188
the use is MONEY. retard. there's such a thing as good money, bad money, worse money, better money. it has to have the right properties, or something will end up taking its place. see gold abandoned. see the dollar failing. the value of things is derived from its uses.

>>54285465
So the same as the other 23,000 cryptos out there that can do P2P payments.

>>54285465
Gold was chosen as money because it is a commodity that has the right properties to use as money. It stores without losing its value. A coin can be melted back down to reuse the gold to make foil, reflectors, jewelry, wires, connectors, or whatever else it is needed for. Bitcoin has no uses and no value to store.

>the value of things is derived from its uses.
Exactly what I said. Bitcoin has no uses so it does not have value.

>>54285514
if you want to compare bitcoin to the 23000 other crypto, bitcoin is the only one with that level of hashrate/security to begin with

>>54285626
the use is money, do you have problem to understand english? gold has industrial uses, but that's not where its value comes from. its value comes 90% from the monetary use. if gold stopped being used as a store of value its value would drop 80% at least. desirability is one property, something mandatory for money, you can achieve that in multiple ways. being scarce and the best money is one efficient way.

>>54284157
>BTC is very sound but you've to admit it failed all of its narratives in the past 2 years

bitcoin it literally higher than it was before covid & massive inflation. And I don't mean from the bottom of the crash. Like it's indisputably been a (volatile) hedge against inflation

>>54286103

I'm afraid a hedge against inflation doesn't exist in practice.

>YOU HAVE TO BUY THIS CIA-CREATED SPREADSHEET CELL THAT TRACKS ALL OF YOUR TRANSACTIONS AND CAN BE DECLARED ILLEGAL AT ANY MOMENT

>>54286259
If don't want to stay poor, than yes, you do.

>>54284477
>BTC is a speculative asset with no intrinsic value,
Why? What's the difference? Why do you retards constantly repeat meme lines like you're completely incapable of thought?
If I'm thirsty I want water and if I'm vary about centrally managed assets I want a decentralized one.

>>54284731
>What is the intrinsic value of btc?
Zero. The intrinsic value is zero.

Depends on what you mean by intrinsic value. The intrinsic value of a protocol you know that people make use of is that it will have wide acceptance, which makes the token worthwhile because of its widespread acceptance, while the token itself not possessing any intrinsic value itself whatsoever. Gold's atomic structure isn't intrinsically valuable insomuch as its widespread acceptance provides the usebase and perceived value by assigning demand to its supply, its atomic structure simply provides an economic safeguard to its scarcity and verifiability. So it is better to examine the phenomenon of economic behavior to assay what type of value (or to be more precise leverage) in affecting human action. "Intrinsic value" as many mental midgets think of it is just chicken or the egg bullshit without focusing on the entire greater picture of cause and effect in human action.

>>54287046
Thats what I am saying.
Now anon, what is the intrinsic value of water?

>>54287188
>what is the intrinsic value of water?
Not zero

>>54283740
there's no such thing as intrinsic value. things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them at a point in time.

>>54283740
haircomb is the intrinsic value of bitcoin because it translates the POW competition of block emitting into remittance of transaction

You can’t live in a Bitcoin - real estate.
You can’t burn Bitcoin to warm you up - cash
You can’t even use Bitcoin on significant electronic components - gold
You can’t wipe your ass with Bitcoin - toilet paper

Bitcoin has no value.

>>54287272
Wrong

>>54283740
It isn‘t supposed to have any. It‘s a currency.

>>54284483
Baste

>>54285514
If you have no idea what you are talking about you shouldn't argue on an internet forum

>>54284524
>0.0000000001btc
wow bro you are smart!

>>54287316
Nothing has any value until you give it value. It can be valueless to you while meaning life or death to someone else. Nothing except objective properties are intrinsic, everything else, perceived value included, is subjective.

>>54287316
real estate - not money
cash - not a store of value
gold - not digital
toilet paper - not money

>>54287329
no it's true. everything has a use in and of itself, so it doesn't even mean anything. it's just a buzzword that PMG nerds use.
>gold: used to make computers
>plastic: used in lots of consumer goods
>water: keeps you alive
>bitcoin: buys goods and services
And in all of these cases, the value is just what people are willing to pay for them. You can say the value is derived from the work put into them, but if nobody wants to pay you for it, it's basically $0

>>54287390
Dimwit take

>>54287438
Prove me wrong, faggot.

>>54287435
>it's true
No

>>54287470
no

>>54287424
BTC - not money, not a store of value, not tangible, not functional.

>>54284669
Based, all the retards forget bitcoin set the standar to how all coins should be and very few ones pass the standars that bitcoin set, sure we have litecoin but bitcoin has a stronger network effect, higher hash rate and probably in the future second protocols that are better than litecoin, we have monero which is anonimous but its hash rate isn't as strong, also bitcoin has been like the only coin to fight inflation shit like etherium us pozzed and Eventually will dump.

>>54284196
Fun fact: the Nobel Prize for Economics was invented by central bankers. It was not an original Nobel Prize category.

fucking kek this thread

Like the only value of the us dollar is its network effect once people stop trusting the goverment its over and that day is coming sooner than later

>>54287510
btc - slowly but surely becoming money (store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account) due to its properties

>>54283740
I've been pondering this a lot actually. The conclusion I've come to is that it doesn't have any value outside of a speculative asset because people don't buy bitcoin to use bitcoin. People buy bitcoin to pump and dump, turn into USD then use that to actually buy stuff. The value is inevitably going to tank because everyone is trying to rug pull at some point to get a currency that you can actually use.

>HOWEVER
I could form the same argument for gold as well. People buy gold as a speculative asset to sell at a later point. There's realistically no intrinsic value in gold outside of "OOGA BOOGA, SHINY ROCK MAKE ME BIG TRIBE MAN". However the fact that its held its value for over 2000 years says something.

>>54287650
>slowly but surely becoming money
No. It's actually moving away from being anything like money. Now the chain is just a dickbutt ordinal storage when it used to process transactions.

>>54283848.
>>54287560

Kings, don't ever buy any tickets on "unsinkable" transoceanic ships. You're not safe.

>>54288288
denial - it increases in demand constantly (price, since the supply is fixed), because of its properties, while volatility lowers over time, and dollar is failing

>>54288486
>denial - it increases in demand constantly
The demand has been tanking for the last two years.

>>54288586
>what are bitcoin cycles
again reality denial, look up the price from before the last bear market (you probably don't know what this is since I'm likely talking to a literal amoeba)

>>54288633
>what is normalcy bias
BTC failed to maintain it's S2F price

>>54283740
>FIAT. Why doesn’t it have any intrinsic value?

>>54288683
>bitcoin cycles
>randomly bringing up s2f
kek retard

>>54288735
The percentage gains are dropping every cycle as each cycle gets longer. The risk/reward profile is now too high for new people to jump in.

>>54288823
who cares, it's a matter of which asset is the best money, if the dollar and fiats fails there will be a replacement
is the bitcoin demand going up over the long term or not?

>>54283740
>why don’t credit cards that siphon money to board members have intrinsic value

>>54283740
>this tier of low fud
Bitcoin inhabits the inside of your head without you reciving payment for it.

>>54288923
>who cares, it's a matter of which asset is the best money, if the dollar and fiats fails there will be a replacement
>is the bitcoin demand going up over the long term or not?
No

>>54287424
>gold - not digital
that's a pro. the government can cut off your electricity at any time.

>>54289059
>the government can cut off your electricity at any time
This is how incompetent anti-btc retards really are.

>>54288990
for price to go up, demand has to be higher than offer, and bitcoin price is going up over the long term; which means bitcoin demand is going up. you are therefore like I expected very stupid, so I have to explain to you basics concepts like this one

>>54289083
are you going to run your propane generator just so you can order a pizza with your internet money?

>>54289115
>propane generator
>t. burger
What is wrong with your brain? How do retards like you function in any way?

>>54289059
governments don't control energy, and technology always trends up not down

>>54289112
Why is the volume collapsing then?

>>54289206
the next bitcoin cycle hasn't really started yet, did the current cycle (2021 cycle) had a higher volume than the previous one (2017 cycle) yes or no?

>>54289298
No

>>54289398
>denial of reality
prove it

>>54283740
I asked ChatGPT if Bitcoin has an intrinsic value-
Answer:
Bitcoin's intrinsic value is a topic of debate among economists and financial experts. Some argue that it has intrinsic value, while others believe it does not.

One argument for Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it is a decentralized, secure, and transparent digital currency. It can be used as a medium of exchange, a store of value, and a unit of account. Its decentralized nature makes it resistant to government interference, censorship, and inflation. These qualities make it useful for online transactions, international remittances, and as a hedge against inflation.

On the other hand, some argue that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value because it is not backed by any physical asset or government guarantee. Its value is determined solely by market demand and supply. Critics also point out that Bitcoin is highly volatile and subject to speculative bubbles, making it a risky investment.

Ultimately, whether Bitcoin has intrinsic value or not depends on one's perspective and understanding of what constitutes intrinsic value.

>>54289413
Prove that it did have higher volume

>>54289462
Holy shit, is that a young Dorsey? What a bean bag. Money can do a lot to not make you look like a dork I guess.

>>54289462
you're the one claiming that the 2021 bitcoin bull market didn't had higher volume than 2017, so it's up to you, but the data is in tradingview, coinmarketcap, the regular websites used to look at the bitcoin price and volume

What was the intrinsic value of gold prior to 1879?

>>54289638
It's up to you to look up the data on your own.

>>54289705
I know the data, I look up charts everyday since early 2017, that's why I'm asking you to publish it right there following your claim so that everyone can see you're a retard (the picture of a long term btc chart with price and volume taken from a popular website will do)

>>54288823
Can we compare this to monero plz

>unit of account is the "Satoshi"
>Japan has had a population problem for long time now
>Japan has a weird cheap real estate market while rest of developed world has been floating on high real estate
>Most of commerical real estate in west is not sold if not used and expensive, regional banks holding this are baggies, Japan has been extremely conservative with yen and parks most money in domestic bonds
>Immigration to Japan has been oddly kept tight while rest of usd countries allowed easy immigration
>That Japanese guy that is used as joke for being real Satoshi
>First big exchange for Bitcoin was in Japan, who was moving liquidity then?

Is their plan to harness a population of autistic weirdos and turn Japan into some private isolationist state using btc while western countries collapse and use the autistic weirdos to balance the Japanese population?

>>54283740
It's value is stored in my balls anon

>>54288923
>is the bitcoin demand going up over the long term or not?
I worry about on-ramps getting destroyed.

>>54290419
I would love this

>>54283740
this thread glows

>>54290440
dollar will fail so the bitcoin level of demand won't lower. it doesn't matter if there's no on ramps, the price is evaluated by the markets in real time, you don't need more money to pump the price, you can also have sellers refusing to sell too low. and at some point with dollar failing, you will not want to exist anyway, bitcoin is meant to be a currency that's the thing.

>>54283766
wtf are you on about, that energy is long gone, anon

their value is faith in the ponzi, transferability, scarcity, immutable, etc.

No useful replies so far lmao

>>54286259
goodbye anon