/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>53945264
>can't be touched until retirement?
Not true
I'd max an hsa first though, assuming you're eligible

>>53945264
ide say a roth > 401k but it depends on what type of lifestyle you want to live.

>>53945264
Start with the total amount you can afford to put into your retirement accounts. If you get an employer match, first priority on is putting money in their 401k plan up to the cap of the match. You probably won't be close to the yearly max though. 2nd priority is to put money in your Roth IRA / IRA IF AND ONLY IF, your 401k election choices are trash and you want to be able to invest in specific funds and sectors the work plan doesn't carry. If you manage to hit the IRA cap and still have some left over, put that into your 401k plan.

Also, remember that the biggest advantage of the IRA is that you can pick what you're invested in at a fine level of detail. Biggest edge of a 401k plan is a potential match. If you are investing under 6k a year into retirement and your company offers no match, then just chuck it into an IRA. As for Roth vs. traditional accounts, it all comes down to how well you think your money is going to do over time. Obviously the Roth is nice since you're always going to retire at a higher marginal tax rate than you have right now, but its possible for a traditional plan to still end up making more on cash out if the account grew enough over time to offset the difference in taxed income.

Don't listen to people that go on about IRAs and 401ks as "scams". They are always either poor retards, or they're trying to sell you a replacement product or lifestyle. The American Millionaire Survey found over 60% of millionaires credit the bulk of their wealth growth to their fat retirement accounts.

>>53946538
>The American Millionaire Survey found over 60% of millionaires credit the bulk of their wealth growth to their fat retirement accounts.
because the average millionaire is 57 dude.
u could have literally just conducted an "american old farts survey" and found the same result.
>invested $100 a month into the SP500 for 45 years
>wow now I'm getting sent a survey honey, look at this! I'll tell them how to make money..

>>53947080
Christ, I wish they took children's phones away at school.

I was wrong, actually 80% of millionaires in the USA credit their deferred retirement accounts with most of their wealth. The Most common occupations for millionaires are engineer, accountant, teacher, manager, and attorney. You may notice that CEO, hedgefund guru, day trader, and medical doctor didn't make the list. Additionally, 62% graduated from a state or public university. 79% of millionaires received absolutely zero inheritance from anyone. Only 8.8% of US adults are millionaires; 76% of them are non-hispanic white.

You are like the nearly 2/3 of retarded eternal-underclass Americans that honestly believe the lottery is their best chance of dying a millionaire. Hell you probably don't even know what 2.5 million net looks like: Its a paid down home with an indestructible Japanese econo-box car, and enough invested in the system so that the dividends pay as much as your job. Money is earned every day, but wealth only really starts to accrue once you have minimized your expenses, from housing to insurance. And then when you die, you have set your affairs in order so that the wealth you earned kickstarts the process for the next generation.

You all want to be dynastically rich, and but none of you want to be the founding patriarch, which would be sad if it didn't put my kids at such a huge advantage.

>>53947851
your kids will be troons and call you a faggot like everyone else does

>>53947851
I like how you didn’t address his main point at all and just went on some schizophrenic rant lmao people like you are the perfect cattle

>>53945264

I max mine out at the beginning of every year. I think it's a good idea OP. Plus, the fund options are better than your average 401k.

I don't max out my 401k, but I do take advantage of my employer's match.

The rest I just put into an individual account. Plus, I max out my HSA.

>>53947851

Don’t tru to convince them. Their brains have been poisoned into i stant gratification and an attitude of entitlement. They forgot the only guarantee they will have in their lives is their inevitable death. They have earned nothing and deserve nothing.

>>53947871
>>53947883

t. Angry poors

>>53947883
What "point" did he have lil nigga? That you won't get rich quick having a family, living deliberately, and not living like a college freshman that just got preapproved for a card with a $500 line of credit? You want to get rich fast? Find an unserved niche, invent a product/service that fills that niche, market it and provide it at scale, and be ready to lose 10 years of your life if it goes to shit. Otherwise, as someone not born into riches, but capable of employment and unwilling to take on the (massive) risks associated with entrepreneurship, work and invest deliberately. That's the path we've got. No amount of "hustle" will ever make up for a lack of deliberateness.

You want to see the fate of the get-rich-quick crowd? Look up the life trajectories of 100 mega-millions winners and see if that's what you call success. Go to Youtube and look up all those infomercials from the 90s promising you could make crazy passive income if only you learned their secret of stuffing envelopes or asking people to send you a dollar in classifieds. You remind me retards slinging crack: street level dealing actually pays worse than part time at McDonald's and you're running the risk of getting caught or killed. But they do it in the hopes that maybe they can make it big like the OGs did. Nevermind none of them will, and at least some could do alright if they just went straight and worked.

>>53945264
You will be bailed-in and you will be happy.

>>53948046
I already made it off Axie Infinty thank god I don’t have to work like some cuck when my body is deteriorating but uh stay poor dude maybe watch some Andrew Tate to find your kind

>>53945264
You can convert your regular IRA (401K) to a Roth and pay a one time tax for the rollover. Wait until you're getting close to retirement to do it. I would open a Roth now and put some money into it but maxing out your 401k is much more important.

Why does everyone say max out your HSA? The tax benefits?

>>53946538
i can afford to max both my roth and 401k, i guess the only thing i was thinking was that the extra liquidity having that 6k in a traditional brokerage account would be nice

>>53948177
yeah its just another way to stash pre-tax money

>>53945264
The Roth Ira is better than the 401k. Order of importance:
>401k up to employer match
>Max HSA
>Max Roth Ira
>Max 401k
You can withdraw up to the principal without penalty with a Roth Ira. It's nice to have as an emergency fund for your emergency fund.

>>53948794
where does a traditional brokerage fit into this though, after all of this is filled in?

>>53948812
If you own a house, after 401k max. If you want to own a house in the future, before 401k max.

>>53945264
Scam, you or the world will probably be dead within 30 years lol. Why bother

Also keep in mind that if you change jobs, you can funnel all of the money in your Roth 401k into a Roth IRA with no penalties. It's a good method of building a portfolio that is tax advantaged.

>>53948841
yeah i guess this is the piece i struggle with, i get so fucking hammered with taxes (35%) that i feel like the most i can stash before that the better, hence the 401k maxxing, i have about 50k in cash that i can either hold onto for a down payment or drop 11k into maxing 22/23 roth

>>53948883
id rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it

>>53945273
wtf is an hsa?

>>53945264
Yes, make sure you buy as much boomer bags as possible.

>>53946538
>Obviously the Roth is nice since you're always going to retire at a higher marginal tax rate than you have right now, but its possible for a traditional plan to still end up making more on cash out if the account grew enough over time to offset the difference in taxed income.
Im epretty sure you;re mixing up IRAs and Roth IRAs. from what i remember, roth is post-tax money put in, and you get it disbursed in retirement without paying taxes on it. normal IRA is then pre-tax money that you pay taxes on as you pull it out. so overall I agree with you, if you cant max out both, make full use of any 401k match, then throw the rest into IRA of choice, my choice being roth since I'm decades away from retirement and ideally over that time will make sizeable gains I wont have to pay taxes on

>>53948936
Health savings account. You and your employer contribute money pre-tax and can use it on basically any medical expense. You can also invest the money in your account. I keep $1k in cash in mine and have almost $10k investment in Vanguard funds.

All retirement plans are fucking scams. They are literally just designed to get out of paying pensions so you can't make out like the boomers once you get old.
>B-b-but employer match is free money!
Nigger them paying you all of that directly is free money
>B-b-but the fund will build up overtime
Yeah just like a regularly managed index fund

401k's in particular tend to pick the shittiest investments that sometimes can't even outpace inflation. Then the cockscukers charge some bullshit 1-2% custodial fee, which compounds each as you hold the account. After that the IRS comes in and chunks all you grains.

At least with Roths you aren't taxed on capital gains and can choose what you're putting money into but holy fuck are 401ks a raw deal

>>53946538
Im old (51). Between employer match(6%) of total comp, they put a kicker in(9%) based on ending the pension, last year i ended up putting 52k into my 401k.
Should i ve doing something different? My 401k is way behind(600k), especially with recent tanking...

>>53949147
Get a better employer. I can choose whatever Vanguard fund I want and there's no fees.

>>53945264
>Can't be touched
Some variation of this post ends up getting shared here damn year every day. I'm not being bitchy at you in particular but google searching any of this info would give you results in 5 minutes.
You can use a "Roth ladder" (roth conversion followed by a withdrawal after 5 years) to get money out of the 401k at any time, and if you withdraw just the right amount it goes down as taxable income so you can scam the government for free healthcare.
You can always withdraw the basis out of your Roth IRA as well, this is useful as a bridge to cover the initial 5 years.
I'm not fucking with you. If you say you can't access the money you do not know the tax code.

>>53948177
If it's done through your employer through a sec.125 cafeteria plan you don't need to pay FICA tax or income tax on the amount.
Then when you use it to pay for health care, it's also tax free. At 65 it is treated like a regular pre-tax IRA and you can withdraw for any reason.

>>53949147
For a $25 quarterly fee (inconsequential % if you aren't poor) I can have a self-directed brokerage in my 401k and buy any ETF or mutual fund I want. Same as my IRA or taxable brokerage, but with no tax drag.
I know shitty employers and providers exist, I'm not saying they don't, but a 401k or IRA is just a special class of investing account. You can buy the same things in them as with your normal brokerage, unless your employer is shit. Some are.
You worship at the altar of the pension but a pension is just an insurance product (not unlike whole-life insurance) with worse returns than stocks, and they can just fire you right before you're vested in the pension to save their bottom line. If my employer fires me now, I roll over my 401k, leave it invested in my IRA, and move on.

>>53945264
Can we admit these are a meme
>stay with our company goy we'll give you idk 5% bonus bux
>but you need to invest in your choice of one of our choices of funds
>the most risk you're gonna get is internationals btw
>also you can't touch this until you're geriatric but you'll be working for us til then anyways
>we'll loan you your own money though and we'll charge interest lol
Just invest privately especially if you're gonna get a smelly roth plan, it's the same shit from a tax standpoint but you actually control your money
The big scam of all time is convincing you to relinquish control of your own goddamn money
>>53947851
They said they didn't use a single issue approach and had invested in an employer sponsored 401k. That isn't the same as crediting the 401k for their wealth. They actually credited consistent long term investment. And 75% of them said they invested outside of their company plans. Also this is legit dave ramsey shit. Surprised you didn't throw in the bit about making grocery lists

>>53949154
What's a kicker? Another 10 years at 52k, plus a little growth and you'll be sitting on a million. That plus SS and if your house is paid off and you're good. Don't do any crypto gambling unless it's with money you won't need for retirement.

>>53949267
I'm a fed and our pension doesn't vest until five years but we become unfireable at 5 years.

>>53946538
OK, Based Ramsey
But very few will heed this information
Because Muh make it meme

Can I start out with a Roth IRA at 36? I can easily do 6k a year, but I want to invest more. I have 50k to play with. What should I put this into to max my retirement?

>>53949554
Max your 401k out and then max Roth out. If you have kids, there are tax advanced accounts for college savings. Also HSAs. I would do it in that order.

>>53949267
UNION SHOP = UNION PENSION +401k if you so chose >>53949147
>>53949507
Vested day one
but MOFO's don't listen
Live better, work union.

>>53949497
The kicker is a straight contribution they stick in 401k that is 9% of my total comp and totally separate from the match. Even if i put zero in, they would put that 9% in there.

>>53949282
>Also this is legit dave ramsey shit
No shit retard, who else was going to fund this survey? Do you get mad when people post Bloomberg Terminal screens when talking about bond yield too?

If you actually read the (short) study and not just the highlights, you'd know that while most of them invested in multiple vehicles, the earliest and largest of their investments (even larger than home equity) were their retirement accounts.

>hurr durr it wadunt dah 401 or dah eye-ra
>It wah dah long term investment
What did they invest in long term then?
>Dah 401 and dah eye-ra

And why do you seem to think that employers "own" your 401k if they offer a plan? If you get fired or quit the entire balance is yours transfer to a new company's 401, your IRA, or it will be held by the firm that provides your current company's plan until you tell them to move it. You also don't seem to understand why % matches are offered either: it allows the employer to effectively offer you increased pay that is exempt from payroll and other taxes. Other anons have already pointed out that only bottom of the barrel plans won't let you make selections for a nominal fee. You need to stop posting as if you understand anything at all about retirement accounts, and I'd recommend not posting again until you have at least 15k in an IRA so that you actually know what they are and what they can do.

>>53945273
>I'd max an hsa first though
So you'd get a high deductible plan that comes with HSA over a cheaper deductible plan that only limits the doctors you can choose?

>>53949497
(((You)))
I do own my home outright(thank vitalik)
I also have some crypto 15 btc, 100 eth, 200k doge, and some other shitcoins and also 100k in nvda,tsla,net,msft,goog,aapl...

>>53949666
Awesome Anon. I bet on Sergey instead of Vitalik. Sounds like you're golden.

>>53949647
What do you do for that?

>>53949507
>>53949645
Sounds like a good gig, happy for you anon. I was referring to private companies that notoriously screwed people right before they were set to receive pensions. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Thankfully, I think most pensions now let you roll over the funds if you get the boot. Especially government employee pensions, I agree that they generally vest in 5 years as yours does.
But I don't believe that was/is always the case, especially for old-school private companies. That's what I was getting at.

>>53949992
Fair point. One of my friends dad got screwed like that after the dot com bubble. I distinctly remember him yelling into the phone " the days of people making 400k a year are over!"

>>53949663
it works out well if you never ever go to the doctor
works fine for me since I fucking hate doctors

>>53949663
Yes. I've gone to the doctor once in three years.

>>53948124
you can instead ladder the conversions into smaller amounts every year

this is how early retirees get 401k money out before 55 without paying a penalty

>>53947897
That"s a man.

>>53947897
Wish I could invest in a musclegirl...

>>53949267
>For a $25 quarterly fee (inconsequential % if you aren't poor) I can have a self-directed brokerage in my 401k and buy any ETF or mutual fund I want.
Where can I learn more about this?

>>53945264
I just put my details into a pension calculator. Im putting away what I can, but even with it estimated at 6% growth annually, I'll be trying to live off $14,000 a year from it even if I delay my retirement to 67. Shit is fucked what is even the point?

>>53945264
>maxing out your 401k
do people really do this? i make $100k gross and put 12% of my money into this + 5% employer match. i'd need to make like $140k to comfortably max out my 401k.

>dave ramsay, the thread
All great advice until you realize the last 50 years are a total anomaly and we are resetting back to a global mean where the USD is no longer king

If you aren't accumulating Bitcoin and gold with everything you have, you're fucking retarded

>>53945264
none of these fake financial instruments will exist in 10 years

>>53952607
That's not what Dave said.
https://vocaroo.com/1eoxvHXzcYNn

If we were all living in the 20th century right now and you were expected to retire sometime in the 2000s-2010s, then yeah sure max out your 401k/Roth IRA.

The problem is, you have to wait 30-40 years to finally cash out and I don't even want to think about what the world will look like during that time.

Hell, I'm going through a nightmare right now trying to cash out one of my mini IRA's because "my check went missing in the mail".

"not your keys, not your crypto" can also apply to retirement accounts - "retirement money is not in your custody, not really your money"

>>53945264
If you are a poorfag then definitely. When I was a poorfag I bought AMD shares on average for $4 a piece. I haven't been able to contribute to that account for a long time now because I make too much. It was fun while it lasted.

>>53949969
I am IT drone... architecture ...for a pharma.

I've had the fortunate experience of being surrounded by wealthy people. They all pretty much have...

>Equity in private businesses
>Sizeable investment portfolio
>High salary professions

You aren't going to get rich trading/holding stocks unless you have significant capital at hand. I'd recommend focusing on the high salary first, and just passively throw $ at index ETFs to focus on growth rather than profits.

Utilize tax advantaged accounts (401k + match to get to a lower tax bracket, then Roth IRA) if you can and forget about the money. This is for long term growth not money to live on. Buy some stocks in a cash brokerage if you think you have a play, buy crypto, etc. Fool around if you want but understand this is play money and not going to make you rich either (again, unless you're a BSD).

The private business equity is where you become rich and financially independent. Your salary covers your living expenses, allows you to save cash and invest for long-term growth on a regular basis. As your business takes off you get paid out dividends/profit share, and the equity is worth some multiple of earnings too. When the proceeds pay out 2x your salary, quit your job. Congrats, you're now rich.

Later in life you can draw from the retirement / brokerage accounts if needed, but they also generally make for a great way to pass on money to your kids.