/biz/ - Business & Finance

people don't want to be slaves

>>53248652
Because commies get the rope

It's gay and retarded

>>53248652
dude just work for 70y a centrally planned job with a centrally planned salary so that you can afford centrally planned quotas like half glass of milk after standing in line for 7h

>>53248668
That's feudalism that we move into right now.

>>53248652
Incentives

Define “work”. Communism works in the sense that you can produce things in a communist state. It doesn’t work in the sense that state controlled enterprises and a party controlled state don’t produce things efficiently enough to guarantee nobody starves.

>>53248668
bread

>>53248652
It's jewish

Explain why it would using economics.

>>53248652
Allocating capital, even when you reward it so disproportionally that literally everyone in the society tries it at some point, is so difficult that everyone but a insanely small portion of the population succeeds at it. To think you can just have some bureaucracy full of government employees with all the baggage that brings do the job effectively is laughable.

>>53248652
>Communism doesn't work.
>Real work has never been tried.

>>53249040
I don't even care that he's fat or that it's movie theater popcorn "butter." He gets my approval.

>>53248652
Planned economies fail due to communist being faggots with money so they become loser faggot nations that fail and become STD infested incel faggot nations.

>>53248652
Nothing is free and you eventually run out of money.

>>53248652
The government controls both the money and the management of resources. The problem is that different people have different needs at any given time. When resources are allocated and planned in fixed allocations then people cannot always buy what they need or want. Human lives are not lived in lockstep with government plans.

>>53248652
Because they don't work either.

>>53249040
Looks like he practises that a lot

>>53248652
It works great between that short period of time you've murdered a whole bunch of people and price controls cause shortages that starves the survivors.

>>53248652
most of the retards here can't because they can't explain anything, they believe the most autistic shit imaginable and are even dumber than the average commie.

any kind of centrally planned economy is a logistical nightmare that no one has managed to solve even on paper, it's simply not feasible to have a centralized entity determine what to produce while accurately responding to constant changes in consumer demand

a more "free-market" style of communism doesn't work because the banning of private ownership of the means of production (necessary component of a communist) makes it essentially impossible to allocate capital sensibly.
for example, if a random group of 5 retards with insufficient programming skills want to start a SaaS company, how are you going to ascertain that they aren't going to be capable of doing so, without them wasting the capital that they're asking for? and to broaden that question, how are you going to determine the appropriate amount of compensation for such people? how are you going to measure how much of a paycheck they deserve?

if your answer is "everyone gets the same paycheck regardless of productivity" then you're creating misaligned incentives where no one has to work hard (and very few people will), causing your economy to collapse. so with that option off the table, there simply aren't any coherent ways to measure the value of someone's labor in a communist society, and by extension, no way to determine the correct reward for their labor

>>53248652
I remember my grandfather telling me stories of the USSR. Not even a true communist regime but still had bread lines. He's a closet communist and has benefitted immensely from capitalism but he'll never admit it.

>>53249032
>>53248652
It doesn't work for the same reason the current US system doesn't work, which is that central planners (central bankers in the USA) concentrate wealth into the hands of a small elite. It ultimately did not matter that countries like China and the USSR claimed they were redistributing wealth to everyone, because that's not waht actually ended up happening. You had party officials who were rich people drinking imported champagne from the decadent french while having nice italian suits and American muscle cars and justifying it by saying their position as party secretary made them invaluable, then the average pleb working in a factory to afford a chaika, some hard bread and rice or whatever, maybe a little commie television. Modern china of course is an even worse version of this because the party doesn't even hide the inequality it's just 'fall in line, this is marxism, trust me'.

All systems which concentrate money and power are flawed by design and will lead to tyranny and wagecuckery.

>>53249192
That's western socialist states. Communist states like the USSR focused more in terms of resource allocation. Ironically what you described is both how the USA defeated the USSR and why the USA is collapsing now. The USSR lost despite more manpower and superior resources because they couldn't take out credit on the assumption there would be 600 million commies in 2050 to pay for the 300 million commies in 1990 taking out loans.

>>53248652
It's idealistic nonsense, never works in practice because it goes against human nature.

>>53248652
Let me keep it simple

>you work
>a fat lazy nigger does not
>you both get paid the same wages
>the nigger will stuff his throat and get fatter and lazier
>there will be less pay because of the strain

That’s communism in a nutshell.

>>53248652

>>53248652

>>53249246
>redistribution didn't happen

False

>party officials were rich

False

>central planning doesn't work

False

Ordinary worker cannot afford even those "basic" things in capitalism.

>>53249334
>dark
>you have allocation of resources
>you have needs of humans that they straight up express

Stupid

>>53249395
cope on all counts, plus the materialistic standard of living has Never been higher anywhere on the planet than it is under modern day capitalism (not even close, and "decades old capitalism" comes in at a distant second, way ahead of any communist society)

>>53249246
>>53249241

The real "Economics" answer is that there is just way too much information in the economy for one central planner to make every decision. It's why communism almost always ends in shortages, famines, wasted resources, etc.

The "free market" disperses the decision making to consumers and firms, which consists of literally billions of people across the world as opposed to a few sociopaths at the top of a hierarchy. Read Hayek and Mises.

>t. Econ degree

>worker ownership of the means of production

turns out this has never happened before, so we don't know if it works yet.
Countries that are typically categorized as communist like russia and china, the state actually owned the means of production not the workers

>>53249395
Commies have fucking garbage theory that blows down under any sort of serious thought. No one in my Econ department were Marxists, and the ones who had Marxist sympathies just became Keynesians to cope.

Please, enlighten us as to how central planning DOES work and why you can do redistributionism better than Stalin and Lenin and Mao and all the revolutionists all of the world that committed cultural suicide only to end in famine.

>>53249413
"Modern day capitalism" is mass debt everywhere, and "standard of living" is not the one of few rich you see on tv, when communist societies actually promised and delivered to everyone, when capitalism can't.

Capital isn't allocated properly.

>>53249462
All those countries worked wonderfully transforming feudal shitholes, your class is "wanna be rich" teenage retards - that now gonna have nothing and will be happy, coping with being extra dick sucking gardeners dogs.

Communism is a goal.
Economics is a flow.

>>53249439
in a technical sense true, but not for a lack of trying. while people like stalin were open tyrants with no sincere desire to hand the power to the workers, his predecessors early in the revolution (e.g. rosa luxemburg) were by all accounts ideologically committed to "true communism" by a definition you would agree to, it just doesn't seem feasible to even put the system in place. pure democratic ownership over the means of production is far too fragile a state for an economy to exist in. the simple existence of a neighbouring capitalist country outcompeting it is enough to make it nearly impossible, and that's without even getting into all the ways it could fall apart from the inside

>>53249439
Then they'll say
>"well the state is representative of "The People" so TECHNICALLY the proletariat DO own the means of production"
There is no group full of more resentment and lies and cope than dirty fucking commies

>>53249463
i'm actually a human being myself and not "one of the few rich you see on tv", i'm perfectly well aware of the actual standard of living of a regular person in the west, thanks though king
>communist societies actually promised and delivered to everyone
Lol

>>53249227
they sure as fuck do if you know where everybody lives

>>53249485
>"we did it! We are free from the shackles of feudalism!"

>>53249512
What's that standard of living then, protip: check your local property prices, when communism gave away property after signing on a list.

>>53249533
That's what the guy with a gun said, aiming at a former feudal lord kneeling.

>>53249541
you literally could not own property under communism you stupid retard lmfao. even modern-day communists who lived in the USSR (like zizek) would tell you that life in an actual historic communist society was abysmal in terms of consumer access to goods and purchasing power.

"they pretend to pay us so we pretend to work", the famous soviet saying. it is true that there was essentially no homelessness - much like in modern-day cuba, 99.9% lived in depressing shitholes that wouldn't abide by basic housing safety regulations in a first world country. they were effectively permanent rentcels in shitty monotonous apartments with NO PROSPECT of EVER owning a house (that was illegal), while making effectively no money with which they were able to buy effectively no goods because there was fuck all anywhere.

please do tell me how the holodomor fits in with communist societies "delivering to everyone", or how literally cutting costs on the construction of a nuclear power plant caused one of the greatest environmental catastrophes in human history

>>53248652
Do you ever get sick of posting these threads? You already got BTFO in the last 10 threads you posted. Communist lives don't matter :)

>>53249546
>>53249541
>>53249485
>>53249463
>>53249395

>>53248652
people like to own stuff

>>53249395
holy shit I can't believe I come here for investing advice when i read retard tier shit like this thank god for this guy theres gubmint gibs

>>53249412
holy shit hes still posting

>>53249580
You co owned everything, with "party" being like every gov ever, managing the common property, like they do it in capitalism with roads or national owned industries etc.

Abysmal in your stupid mind, you might have lacked in luxuries because providing basics to everyone is a priority - that capitalism doesn't even try to do, making everyone dream of consooming like rich people on tv, and then you own nothing but are happy.

Holomodor "happened" when communists were preparing mass production to provide food for everyone, and loser kulaks tried to sabotage it. Literally one year during tranformation, and all worked later.

>>53249607
>gibs
>when you own means of production

That's you share of profits from business you own, not a handout. Stock dividents are gibs?

>>53249624
Maybe you will learn something, instead of circlejerking in the thread #755864 "commies bad, my future rich husband good"

>>53249282
Marx already knows all of that. The bottom class will become the revolution leading class, and will become the new ruling class, and the wheel keeps on turning. But the point is with each cycle the bottom class becomes a bit better than the previous bottom class, and the civilization discrepancy between the bottom and the top class slowly shrinks => until one cycle the discrepancy disappears, that is when every man is equal, when communism can work.

look outside the window, that is exactly whats happening today. dont be ignorant. read Marx. if youre ignorant you will be screwed over and your kids will be slaves forever.

>>53249664
>You co owned everything
so you owned it in and had agency the same way renters own their apartments, which is "you did not", cool.
>you might have lacked in luxuries because providing basics to everyone is a priority
mfw living in a country where 99% of people have the basics and like 80+% of people have at least SOME degree of luxury compared to a country where 99.5% of people have the basics and 1% of people have luxury with NO PROSPECT OF EVER ATTAINING IT BECAUSE THE PARTY WON'T LET IT BE MADE lol
life in a place like the USSR is dreary and pointless, you're guaranteed to die as you lived, in semi-poverty with nothing of material value to leave your family, living in a dreary grey ugly shitbox of an apartment, while the government demands the right to be able to pry into your life and tell you what to do to a degree that wouldn't fly in even the most cucked european countries. even in the 50s-80s, housing, food and basic utilities were objectively better in western europe than in the depressing wastelands of the USSR
>Holomodor "happened" when communists were preparing mass production to provide food for everyone, and loser kulaks tried to sabotage it
nice cope answer, and why exactly did the chernobyl reactor not have a containment building around it, as was standard practice in the wealthy parts of the world for decades?

>>53249704
>future rich husband good
basic commie society, (have to at some point) suck dick for food or sneakers

>>53249722
In a way like coowning a hotel with others and staying in one room each.

>99% owns the place they live in

LOL here comes the "i have contact with reality". The house you live in is owned by your parents, not you, btw.

>all that namecalling

Cope faggot, you leave debts to your family, wait, you have none, you can't afford it, too expensive to have kids lolololol

>he thinks nuclear power plants are built differently and in commie lands reactor is in the open.

Bhahahaha.

You're a bot, aren't you.

>>53249782
No, that's capitalist dream.

>>53249801
>The house you live in is owned by your parents, not you, btw.
no wonder you are a commie, you still live with mommy and think that the grownups do too for some absurd commie reason. your mom needs to kick you out so you can become a man.

>>53249857
In communism everyone moved out because state provided housing when you became an adult. Capitalists live with their mommies, since now you can't even afford a mortgage.

>>53249801
lol starting to seethe as the points become weaker and weaker, i love it
>>99% owns the place they live in
please get those soviet glasses checked, you made that sentence up, i did not type it.
currently about 70% of the people in my country live in owner-occupied residences, i.e. the person living there owns it. that's more than two thirds, compared to a grand.. zero thirds under shitty communism where you literally live in the state pod. yuck

>The house you live in is owned by your parents, not you, btw.
i don't live with my parents and i don't own a house because i'm in my 20s pal.. i don't want to be tied down to a place. i rent a pretty amazing apartment and when my lovely parents eventually die they'll leave me and my brother their €800k house to sell (mortgage fully paid off for years), although both of us are on track to be able to comfortably afford our own house in the next few years anyway. do i sense some commie seethe? how does it feel to live with your parents in some third world shithole? no wonder you fantasize about the USSR, for you it would probably be an upgrade lmao

>Cope faggot, you leave debts to your family
most people die with a positive net worth you fucking imbecile lmfao, try again

>he thinks nuclear power plants are built differently and in commie lands reactor is in the open.
i don't know what this means, nuclear power plants are in fact built differently. there's not one type of nuclear power plant, you mouthbreathing nigger. in the USSR they had mostly RBMK reactors which were literally designed by soviets, not standardized across the world. the specific design flaws that caused chernobyl to happen did not exist in any power plants outside of the USSR.

try again, virgin

>>53248652
ironically, communism aka international socialism works best in small communes of a couple hundred people. centralized economic planning on a global scale, much less a national scale, is simply not possible. Until we reach a future where actually every transaction can be monitored and recorded.

>>53249917
>whatever percent of owners when everyone were owners of everything in communism

Cope, that' nowhere near any standard, and banks own it mostly, not paid yet.

>i don't WANT to own
>you can't just sell old and buy new one

Coooope.

>the details are different it means they don't look the same

Please. And Chernobyl happened because they conducted an experiment with safety systems off, not "design flaws".

Keep coping more.

>>53249990
>everyone were owners of everything in communism
hahahahahaha. you're the type of fucking nigger who would fall for a timeshare scam. we should bring back old financial scams from the 80s and 90s and try them on modern day communists, those gullible retards will fall for anything.
>w-what do you mean i don't own this timeshare? i actually own it along with 30 other people, that just means we own it 30 times!
KILL YOURSELF for typing something so stupid, you worthless rat

>you can't just sell old and buy new one
minor detected, imagine buying a house at age 26 and looking to sell it at age 27 when you want to move, only a communist could suggest something so financially fucking illiterate LOL

>Please. And Chernobyl happened because they conducted an experiment with safety systems off, not "design flaws".
holy fucking cope. yeah no shit they were doing a safety experiment, but why did the emergency shutdown button fail to function when it was correctly pressed as instructed? and why was there no containment building to contain the spread of radioactive fallout? :)

ok bedtime m8, stay poor <3

>>53249896
>since now you can't even afford a mortgage
wut 2% fixed go suck a red dick in the commieblock for a few eggs lol. I can't even why commies come on biz, fuckin got lost on your way to the bread line or wut

the only good commie is a dead commie

SO LET'S MAKE THESE COMMIES GOOD.

>>53250041
>timeshare
>capitalist scam
>compared to owning a hotel forever

Loser needs to strawman, hehehe. Idiot.

>selling a house is soo hard
>you don't even need to sell, just rent and use money to live for free somewhere else

Lol, too hard for you, yes, leave all ownership in hands of oligarchs, you are too stupid to own stuff

>why your brakes don't work after you disabled them, the pedal is still there!!!???!!?
>why building that exploded doesn't protect anything anymore???!?!

No, you stay poor, and stupid, fighting people that actually want to own everything. You loser foverer, and happy about it.

>>53250069
>that's the standard in capitalism

>come to biz
>doesn't want to own anything, just get rich quick with crypto speculation

Maybe someone who actually knows how economy looks belongs here, not losers having to win in a lottery to fulfill their dreams

>>53248652
What kind of communism are we talking about? The on-paper communism, or the kind that's actually been tried multiple times in real life?

Of course communism works on paper. It's never going to fail the way commies describe it. Problem is it never pans out the way they describe it in real life

Main crux of the commie ideology is in its revolution: commies take over the government, and absolute power is given to the new commie government in order to bring about their amazing ideology. The government promises to dissolve itself "when it's ready" and give power to the people. Which obviously never happens and it just becomes an authoritarian hellhole.

But you asked for economics, okay, so this authoritarian shithole forces people to take shitty jobs that no one wants. From each according to his ability. Now you're forced to work in the most awful factory job you don't even want. Alright, maybe you can just work hard and get promoted? Nope, that's too capitalist.

And let's talk about the absolutely insane levels of bureaucracy that end up being generated by this systems. Did you know? In the Soviet Union, on the manufacturing level, it was never about efficiency. It was about bureaucracy. WIndow factories were incentivized to produce the thickest windows because thicker apparently was better according to the bureau? So they would produce thicker and thicker windows, to the point that you couldn't hardly see through them. The goal here was to appease the bureau and thus get greater rewards, not to actually produce a stronger window that you could still see through.

Idk I'm actually way to lazy to finish my thought because I'm not being incentivized to do so. I don't care. Your faggy utopia will never exist and you know it and I know it so who cares, don't even read this post I hope you skipped to the bottom becasuse

>>53248652
no price discovery

>>53248652
Depends what you mean by communism, since there are as many communisms as there are communists. Soviet communism would probably work better in a world with just-in-time delivery and the type of technology we have now though. Not that it would have lasted anyway

>>53248652

>>53249048
Define "define"

Capitalism and communism are two sides of the same jewish coin

>>53250619
>censored
Fuck off.

>>53248652
It does but you have to snuff out all intellectuals and people of influence for it to really work. I actually wrote a great thesis and intro dissertation for my masters as a poli sci student on how communism would be beneficial and would actually work. It hard to say and I said it in much lighter terms in my paper but genocide is literally the only way but it’s an overall net positive. The genocide doesn’t have to be brutal but it does have to occur unfortunately/fortunately.

Something I added my paper that echos to this day (which I found adds a cherry on top to my paper):
Sheppards guide the flock and the ox graze.

>>53250717
At least you're willing to advocate for your own genocide

>>53248652
Some elements of communism work but only for specific industries. 99% of industries (automotive, food/restaurant, luxury goods, electronics, pretty much anything that isn't an absolute necessity) are better off with the capitalistic model. This is why democratic socialism has resulted in a better standard of living than the American model while retaining the important aspects of a capitalistic model (like being able to own your shit)

>>53249664
What about the mass murder of political enemies? Why did Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. all decide to murder communist sympathizers like you after the revolution was achieved?

>>53248652
We're experiencing it right now. The elite and the bankers have all the money. The peons work for scraps and pay into the system with their wages. Some peons don't work and extract from the system.

>>53250778
Also the elites and the bankers can create an infinite amount of currency at will which devalues the currency of everyone else who has to actually make something to acquire it.

>>53249246
The US system is inherently communist.

>>53249720
Eventually, if we murder enough people, communism will work!

>>53249274
So america is full blown communism? Because that's literally every retail and office job

>>53250816
YES. IT IS.
>Elite and ruling class bankers who control the money and have first access to the money printer, as it's created as debt - Check
>Infinite amount of currency printing (taxing) power in the hands of the ruling bankers and government - Check
>Goyim class have little to no money, work hard to survive and still have much of it stolen from them as taxes to be redistributed to even more useless goyim who do nothing - Check

>>53249599
>cleanup on aisle 7

I think communism is good because it makes everything equal. Like, everyone gets the same stuff and no one is left out. Also, the government takes care of everything, so people don't have to worry about not having enough money or a place to live. And, since everything is shared, people can just focus on living their lives and not have to stress about making more money or being better than others. That's what makes communism good, it's fair for everyone.

>>53250851
And who controls the distribution of money? A government? A bank perhaps? We already have that.

>>53250851
Yes its fun and good until your population is 90% artist/musician fags and the only people actually growing food think you art fags should fuck off

>>53250741
Democratic socialism exists only in nordic countries and is breaking down as they become more diverse. It has nothing to do with democracy or socialism, just ethnic homogeneity.

>>53248652
Read Mises.
Read Bohm Bawerk
Read Austrian economics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

>>53249282
rothbard > any ancoomer garbage

>>53250707
>Capitalism and communism are two sides of the same jewish coin
You unironic socialist compulsive liars have been saying the same refuted garbage since /new/ was created.
>>53250851
>Also, the government takes care of everything
This is literally impossible and only a retarded utopian thinks this way. The government is violence. How do you magically create abundance through violence.
> And, since everything is shared,
Everyone is equally poor, you fucking moron.