/biz/ - Business & Finance

dont say we didnt tell you but SONM

> “Every time you trade one digital currency for another, one token for another, it’s going to be a taxable event.”

I already thought this was the case. Oh well.

>>5303007
kek so I have literally hundreds of thousands of trades with no records of them.
Wow.

>>5303037

RIP, sorry bud.

That's some bullshit. I can't even use this shit for much until it's fiat. Why hurt poorfags?

>>5303037
You should be good, it only takes into effect at the start of the year. I would keep trading to a minimum next year though if you want to be safe from the IRS.

>>5302894
we just can't win can we

>only 800 declared last year

I still think they’re bs’ing to buy time for full regulation. They don’t have the man power let alone the laws to tax crypto as a “security” when they’re clearly either currencies or digital real-estate like NEO.

>>5303160
Obviously if tons of people are making 1000's of trades a day they wont be able to keep up. However, is it worth risking the IRS ruining your life over the risk of a few gains... not for me.

>>5303116
So, the way to play next year is to just buy and HODL. It'll make me less greedy and probably less likely to have losses.

...Now I'm going to have to buy all my coins with fiat. Shit.

How the fuck would the IRS know what I'm doing if I'm using binance? The servers are in East Asia.

I don't fully understand this. Are they saying that on every single trade, there should be a certain % set aside for taxes? So even if I keep all my shit on binance/private wallets in 2018, and not a single dollar gets cashed out to my bank, i'm going to owe taxes? And what If I do that, and it crashes to $0 on jan 1 2019, i'll still owe a shit ton of taxes on something that is now worthless?

Is that whats going on here?

>>5303284
Eventually you would need to find a way to cash those profits out. Again, same could be said for using darknet coins like Monero, verge, etc... there are ways around everything. The point i made above is that it's just not worth the risk. The IRS will fuck the ever living shit out of you.

>>5303311
This is correct. Starting next year a lot of people who don't realize this are going to get fucked hard.

>>5303339
Yeah but they cant really prove how many transactions you had... Maybe you just sold btc to some asshole for tripple its value BCC style

>>5303339
I 100% plan to pay my taxes if I ever cash out to fiat, but how will they have any clue that I'm flipping coins?

They can't know. Ez route is to just buy BTC and transfer them to off-shore exchanges. Any tax bills they make literally won't apply to me unless I decide to go back to fiat

>>5302894
>>5303007
>>5303037
>>5303155
>>5303212
>absolute state of burgerland.
Buy LTC for the last moon and put a smile on your 56% faces
>>5303311
what is monero

>>5303400
BTC is traceable through the blockchain, you would need to use a darknet coin. I am not saying it can't be done... just not worth the risk in my opinion. When you go to cash out it would draw a lot of attention from the IRS and that's when they would bend you over.

>>5303372
This is some BULLSHIT! Honestly just coming onto biz and trading shitcoins back and forth has become a hobby to me. Buying and hodling may still be profitable but its not fucking fun. I 15x my money this year and the best part of it was trading. Making money, losing money. Pink wojaks, memes galore.

>>5303339
Also this, I wouldn't fuck with the IRS. understaffed or not, when it comes to tax evasion, they are not lenient. They sent fucking Blade to jail for 3 years for not sending his tax returns in.

>>5303339
Why not turn btc into gold at JM Bullion. Investment to investment is not taxable. As long as your switching less then $3000 per week you should fly under the radar. Then sell that gold for cash....profit?!?!?

Whats happening ameriburgers? Wheres your freedom? Where is your second amendment? Where is your fucking capitalism?

This shit seems worst than what socialist countries like UK, Canada, and Mexico do. Wasnt the republican party about less gov control?

Anyway, good luck to the IRS proving that your transactions, they wont be able to. I wouldnt worry.

>>5303620

Most countries have tax laws on crypto trading. It isn't unique to Burgerland. Some Nordic countries have a 43% CGT. Fuck that.

>>5302894
>“As this fledgling type of payment gets older and more adopted, more scaled, eventually it will get regulated,” Losi said in a telephone interview. “More and more people will come to accept it and agree with it, even if early on it is very speculative.”
These people are actually brain dead, they should be hooked up to life support to keep oxygen to their heads from now on.
Good luck with the IRS finding and apprehending records from every exchange, they'd have better luck shutting down Piratebay by themselves.

>>5302894
If there's no personal info or even and identity attached to my current gains and wallets, can they even tax me through coin conversions, or is it only on centralized exchanges that require verification?

>>5302894
So am I expected to bring a fucking book detailing all of my shitcoin trades with me to H&R Block? Will H&R Block even be able to handle this or will I have to go to a specialist?
t. Tax brainlet

>>5303311
This was always my beef. Fine, I’ll pay taxes and be a fine burger but it only makes sense when moving back into fiat. One huge pump in one and one huge dump in another could cause some serious pain with no gains to show.

>>5303846
That's the idea, better not lose money on those trades either otherwise you will find yourself in the negative real quick.

>voting for trump

>>5303311
If it crashes then you can claim a loss.
Losses can carry into the next few years.

>>5303936
>implying this wouldn't have happened with either side

Stop being hysterical. Just use first in first out principle.

>>5303845
They could get the transaction history from the sites. But other than that no, the blockchain only has the the public keys that you submit to it available, so the only way for them to know it's yours is if you submit it yourself. Which means they're essentially telling you to fuck off somewhere else if you want to cash out because they're jews.
There's no point in paying taxes when the US economy is on the verge of utter devastation as well.

every trade is a taxable event, and it's been this way since the IRS said so like 2 years ago

good goys

>>5303997
>"What happened to your million lambos anon that you traded on December 31st at exactly 11:58:59PM on Bittrex, anon"
>"Well, you see Mr. Taxman, I listened to /biz/ and put it all into Chainlink, so now it's all gone to 0. I'm reporting it as a loss."
>"You sure it's not in a private Monero wallet somewhere earning even more Lambos?"
>"Oh no no, not at all!"

>>5304100
I've always heard 2 conflicting stories about the dollar. One side says it's inevitable fall is any day now with social security and what not, and the media says it's all good and that the stock is at an all time high. But I suppose my frugality has sheltered me from awareness of the economic states. But if taxes only apply on cashout to fiat, that sounds fair considering there's more than one technical fiat. I'd imagine you could cash out to pounds, pesos, or yen as well. Unless fiat conversions are taxable.

>>5302894
Land of the free, home of the brave. Enjoy reporting your 100s/1000s of trades haha holy shit. I wonder if someone will get arrested for tax evasion for trading DOGE as a joke.

Ahh, freedom is beautiful. Too bad my country isn't free, which means I don't have to pay taxes for crypto --> crypto trades. Damn that's fucked up

>>5304005
Definitely wouldn't have, look how the votes are split right now.

>>5303605
That was horrible.

budget director mick mulvaney loves btc and cryptos in general, thank god trump won bc hillary would've never let this shit fly for long

>>5304273
If it was you get taxed only when you cash out to fiat I agree, that would be fair. But that’s not the case, far from it.

>>5304474
I meant crypto taxes fucktard

>government puts a 9% sales tax on each trade because it's not a real investment
>everyone who does not produce records of their trades gets fucked in the ass next to Shkreli for tax evasion

God, this is retarded, I'm glad I'm not a burger. They're doing their best to fuck over crypto, fucking jews, I hate them with passion.

Thank god Trump is following thru on his promises to deregulate and drain the swamp amirite?

What the fuck do we do?

>>5305880
don't sell

not even terrorists could fuck the US citizens more than the own government does
LOL

Does this mean I'm safe to use use the like kind exchange rules for taxes in January, and just have to keep detailed records of my trades next year?

T-trump 2020...m-make america great again..

why the fuck does the GOP think they champion a "free market" if they pull shit like this?

>>5306190
anon..... cmon.....

>>5306190
because they're all fucking con artists and swindlers. Their biggest victory was getting the white majority to vote against their own interests every step of the way lmao

>>5306190
you think 'muh terrorism' has anything to do with keeping people safe?

you think 'muh guns' has anything to do with freedom? no anon, it's about money. nothing else.

I thought the rules were already like this? Are you saying I dont have to pay taxes on all my prior trades now?

I am really confused

>>5306282

Fuck off shill

>>5306190
>he actually thinks he's voting in his own best interest when he votes republican
hyup wees gon make mrucia grate agen

>>5303037
Remember, if it goes through, your past transactions won't matter, only those afterwards.

>>5306353
because I want to keep the money I earn I am shilling?

>>5302894
FUCK BANKING KIKES

they cant control this, just dont use their shitty exchanges

>>5302894

Only if you cash out. RETARDS

>>5306473
Source? I think you're the retard here

So say you bought XMR at whatever price it has to have been at to get you to your current holdings when you cash out.

How the fuck is the IRS ever going to be able to check your transaction history, they cant even manage it in markets that are regulated let alone ones designed for privacy

like LOL

>"once a swapped asset is actually sold, the seller would owe capital gains taxes at a rate that depends on whether it was held for more than a year"

Wow its fucking nothing.

So for this year, will I have to pay taxes on crypto-to-crypto trades?

>>5306311
That's the miner's fee. What you pay to miners for keeping the system running for you. The government wants to basically add an additional fee.

If they get really shitty with this and it ends up being a massive pain in the ass I will just go all in on Steemit and powerup my coins. Now the money is locked away. No trades and I believe it changes the dynamic on how I have access to my money.

>>5306597
yes, crypto has never been and never will be like-kind, that was a pipe dream

idk why people thought it was, animals of different genders aren't even like kind

>>5306564
They're applying the same kind of rules that apply to regular stock buying/selling, except trying to tax "selling" your coins to buy other coins.

Honestly, IRS can eat my ass. until I cash out, I'm not putting any of that bullshit in my taxes unless I'm reporting capital losses on the initial investments

>>5306611
Ahahaha I'm not talking about the fucking miners fee genius, there was already a belief that we were being taxed on a trade by trad business and we had to report them

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2017/08/15/cryptocurrency-traders-risk-irs-trouble-with-like-kind-exchanges/#2ec904ca26a8

This article makes it clear we were already suppose to be taxed on trades before any new tax deal

>>5306714
just transfer your coins to a hardware wallet that you accidentally "lose" and report a loss on your taxes

>>5303007
EVERY TRADE IS TAXED MEME FAGS BTFO

IT'S NOT TRUE

HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHHAHA I MEAN IT MIGHT BE TRUE SOON

BUT IT'S NOT TRUE NOW. BTFO

>>5306735
This is why I’m learning Spanish. Dating a pure girl with connections to some...freedom fighters...that might help me retain assets.

>>5306755
The IRS is going to begin throwing people in jail for losing wallets and fucking up transactions... You better make sure your hard drive doesnt crash and you tripple check every wallet address or its to the clink for you pal.

>>5302894
anyone else getting the fuck out of this shit country?

>>5307042
yep. unironically no longer "our" country anymore. it's (((theirs))) completely. zog hates that white dudes are getting rich off of crypto

>>5306900
>The IRS is going to begin throwing people in jail for losing wallets
except the law simply doesn't work that way

>>5307042
You better choose wisely. Most not shitty places to live in this world have high taxes and a government who fears the internet and crypto currency.

>>5303105
>why hurt poorfags?
>GOP
You must be new

>>5303620
Two things are sure in life, death and taxes. I live in a highly taxed county and people literally want to increase taxes on themselves. These people hate money.

>>5302894
If we all unified under some sort of obscure currency and only traded in that currency much like bitcoin, except completely detached from crypto, could the government tax that? Like creating fiat, to replace fiat, without ever coming into contact with fiat.

>>5307068
am zog, can confirm. kys

>>5306190
Trump talked about tarifs all campaign and taxing goods coming into the US. The tax reform happened to line up with a sudden increase in popularity in crypto and it got included unfortunately.

>>5307102
Its going to have to.

Here's the problem jackasses.

Losing a wallet and fucking up a transaction is HIGHLY MOTHERFUCKING PLAUSIBLE.

Recovering said wallet or transaction randomly a year later is also HIGHLY MOTHERFUCKING PLAUSIBLE.

The only way the IRS is going to get around this is brute force. They cannot be forced to take your word for it because a 12 year old could make up a simple story and avoid paying millions in taxes. Then suddenly "OMG I GOT MY WALLET BACK! YAY!" a year later...

They are going to just begin throwing everyone in jail for this or they might as well just ignore it. That's the only two options here.

>>5307307
Let me rephrase that. We use something completely unrelated to fiat, assign a value to it through bartering, and make sure there's no way to "cash out" on it so it can never be assigned an authentic fiat value. Kind of like picking tulips to use as a currency instead of trying to redeem them for the established currency.

>>5306282
We need an openly antisemitic candidate

>>5307068
>>5307122
http://nomadcapitalist.com/blog/

Is there a source to the bill where it explicitly says anything about crypto? It has always been known that you have to tax trades ever since they acknowledged crypto as capital gains. This feels like a fear mongering article written by a boomer kike in hopes of bringing down crypto, since all the normies read kikeberg.com. And at a time when coinbase and ver are trying to kill BTC, this just goes perfect into the kike plan.

>>5304559
>>>https://reddit.com

>>5303920
Wouldn't losses be deductible offsets?

>>5307461
That blog site gives me crypto for my post? Not worth my time if not.

>>5307350
Most likely scenario

>Get taxed on buying crypto + transaction fees
>US law forces all exchanges to be KYC compliant tracking trades across exchanges
>FBI + IRS team up
>Math programs able to recreate your investing steps backwards on historical data so even buying xmr isn't safe
>Felony fine for lying, tax evasion, fraud, money laundering, and whatever else they can think of.

>>5306088
>>5306190
>He actually got on the Trump train
You did it ironically right..... RIGHT?

>>5303875
thats the point though. They want to kill crypto, make it not worth buying. Think about it, if trump wants to kick start the economy hes not going to want people fucking around in other making money doing nothing. i

>>5307956
If you really think about it, we could be in what is considered a monetary war right now. We have the petrodollar against bitcoin,ether, and whatever China has.

>>5303311
This sounds like bullshit to me. How the fuck are they supposed to enforce this?

>>5307611
omg shut the fuck up

>>5308046
who knows maybe thats who the whales are that a fucking with the market daily. How much btc do you think has been confiscated over the years? Im not even trying to troll either.

worthless article. the last sentence: "Rhind said existing rules already prohibit securities from being used in like-kind exchanges. “I don’t think it’s relevant,” he said."

I THOUGHT HE WAS /OURGUY/

Thanks dumbfuck trumptards, I wonder what he’ll ruin next?

Can’t wait to hear how he was still “better than Hillary” though

So in theory if I make $100k off some shitcoin pump, sell it for another shitcoin, and it dumps to where my value is say, $1k, I'm going to suddenly owe 15% of $100k in money I don't even have?

I know people say you can write off losses but as I understand that's only like up to $500 a year?

>>5304979
Yes, I'm aware.

For some clarification, my fiances dad is a CPA and financial lawyer. He told me a couple weeks ago you only have to pay once converted into fiat.

>>5306792
fucking this

This means they won't bother with regulation

Which is the important thing

>>5304172
Top kek

>>5303683
actually burger land is paying the *by far* highest taxes for crypto. Several nordic countries with 0 percent. And free healthcare. And free education.

When you factor in our base taxes + out of pocket health care + out of pocket college we're paying wayyyy more than socialist societies. And now we get jewed out of our fucking incredibly high risk gains.

Literally just booked a flight out of here beginning of January. Fuck this ponzi.

>>5308259
Hillary wanted to increase short term capital gains tax to 6 years.

Now fuck off will ya?

>>5309211
free healthcare/education

>>5309211

>buying high on the Nordic meme

They haven't had to pay for defense, their income taxes are becoming unbearably high, and they now have a big (and growing) underclass of migrant people who are going to slowly drain their coffers

The US rolling back taxes right now is perfect because in an era of too much people and too much migration social welfare and the Nordic model is inherently at odds, buy low not high

At least move to a low CoL paradise rather than socialist meme

>>5309325
kill yourself, the U.S. is quickly becoming one of the worst countries on the planet

>>5308259
Literally these retards first and only response. The brainwashing / mind control is real

>>5306666
okey, thank you for clarifying that I'm fucked, satan
I'll see you all in prison

>>5309344

>they haven't had to pay for defense
Exactly. Right now my crypto gains will be paying for other countries to ride USA defense coattails. I'm not talking about reasons, I'm talking about the end result. Currently irregardless of what the reason is - they actually pay less. This is irrefutable. The reasons can be argued but they don't concern me as I'm not a fan of ideologies. I simply want to stop getting raped by the US gov.

>implying I'm going to an expensive nordic country where I can't take advantage of any benefits since I wouldn't be a resident

Um no. I'm going to southeast asia. 500/month for 2 bdr modern condo. Fuck this country.

I literally earn over 200k/year here while supporting my mother financially and even now, it feels like the system here is set up to make you fail.

I'm out.


>>5309325

Yes, my point is they pay for them with increased taxes. Point being that their total cost of taxes is waaaay lower vs our already high taxes plus the (((unseen costs of healthcare, education etc)))

This makes no sense. Gains are taxed. Losses can be claimed against gains. So when I cash out to fiat all that matters is money in vs money out. You’ll get the exact same answer. One way is just a ton of work.
Anon puts in 10k and cashed out 30k. Tax to pay on 20k.
Anon puts in 10k trades shitcoins and comes out with 30k. If you add every gain and subtract every loss you get the same answer.

No one on this fucking thread has explained how you have to pay taxes starting January 1, 2018. Jesus.

Does this mean you have to pay tax at the time of the event, or quarterly?

>>5309211
okay enjoy paying for the migrant invasion kek

>>5308155
hehehe If its not steemit it fucks blows ass. :P

>>5304602
Are you daft?
>I'm sure Hillary would have...
Is not an argument.

Trump and crew are actively fucking you and all you can say is "Hillary wouldn't have used lube or given me a safe word."

>>5303605
DELET THIS

XMR is the future, enjoy prison faggots.

>>5309638
Making all capital gains held under 6 years taxed as short term gains was part of her platform.

>>5309533
Yep,

Only catch is that this greatly disincentivizes using fiat at all. Which means people will simply stop cashing out.

The IRS needs a new way to do things I think. Punishing people who are honest is not going to end well.

>>5309737
She's not president nor are the Democrats promoting what the OP posted. We have the GOP and Trump promoting this absolutely pants on head retarded individual trade plan and you're mentioning something that exists in an alternate nonexistent timeline.

>>5303620
Republicans are only for less government for the middle and lower classes.

If they can use government to benefit the wealthy and keep the lower and middle classes from reaching upper class they are all for government action.

They are unapologetically shills for the richest in this country at the expense of everyone else. This has been SOP since Reagan.

>>5309533

Actually it's a huge fucking difference.


What this means is - all those trades you made this year but didn't want to cash out because "muh 40 percent burger rape" is going out the window. Now you get raped on taxes *NO MATTER WHAT* you can't just hold your crypto and trade moons anymore. You'll essentially be forced to cash out some every year to fucking pay taxes.

if you use like-kind exchange on your 2017 taxes you're gonna get audited.

>>5309911
But if I trade on binance how will they get those chink logs?

>>5310053
Every exchange site would have to compile with the new US rules, meaning they'd have to provide data or something similar to that.

>>5309844
Should add that only under 30 faggots unironically thought Trump’s lack of knowledge of basic policy wouldn’t result in him being the ultimate puppet for the worst of Republican policies.

He only cares about image and not details. So he will sign shit like this with a shit eating grin on his face because he doesn’t understand what he is even signing and it makes him look like he is “winning”.

Only newfags think just because he makes SJWs mad and don’t care about being PC when spouting inane nonsense means he will be some sort of rebel. This would be great only if he wasn’t a dumbass which make him vurnerable to being a puppet.

>>5310132
Can’t they just tell the American government to fuck off? What incentive do they have to provide the data? Especially when you can trade with just an email address

>>5310175
Democrats would sign a bill like this too. But I agree with you.

this is legit robbery...

>>5310053

The same way they get logs from every exchange. By exerting political influence and power that you've been strengthening by paying taxes into for all these years :^)

>>5310359
Basically - go long ZRX / any other decentralized exchanges.

So I won’t be buying BTC and already sold all my BTC.

Hopefully BTC tanks as this news spread and ETH increases.

https://barterdex.supernet.org/

>>5310132
what about decentralised exchanges like Bitshares

>>5310410
Will zrx rise in value? I hear it’s just a utility token with no upside

>>5302894
>>5310489
>>5310534

>put my own money into an unregulated market which the government in no way guarantees or protects
>"you now owe us 15%"

Literally theft

>>5308105
They don't lmao

>>5310200
Most likely, exchanges who decide not to compile with the new rules would just refuse to have any US traders. And I do expect to see many exchanges being way more stricter than it already is, such as proving variety of personal identifications. As we've seen earlier this month Coinbase was ordered to turn over thousands of Identities to the IRS. Although you still can't cashout without paying tax unless you wanna do some shady work. This shouldn't really bother you if you aren't breaking any regulations.

>>5307350
Haha whatever cuck. Pay your taxes idiot.
Everyone else don't give the IRS a dime. Only a brain dead fool would fall for this scare tactic.

my grandpa is a CPA and i have other family in the business. they said to not be hysterical fags shrieking like women. just whatever you cash out file at the end of the year, don't worry about this petty shit unless you are dealing in the millions and cash it all out at once. that's when you need to deal with counting every transaction you ever made. the IRS doesn't care about the satoshis you made when you panic sold the bottom of a pump 5 years ago on yobit.