/biz/ - Business & Finance

Is it true bitcoin is about to go to $1500 thanks to canada?

>>509936
>Regulated exchange?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teraexchange-completes-first-bitcoin-derivatives-trade-on-regulated-exchange-2014-10-09

"eraExchange announced today the first bitcoin derivative transaction to be executed on a regulated exchange. The initial trade was completed between digitalBTC, the world's first bitcoin-focused company to commence trading on a major stock exchange, and a hedging counterparty."

Bitcoin has traded on a regulated exchange.
Let that sink in.

>>509937
The news from canada was great, but it is small potatoes compared to bitcoin being traded on regulated exchanges.

Pantera capital says bitcoin could be worth as much as $4,291,060 per bitcoin.
https://cdn.panteracapital.com/wp-content/uploads/Bitcoin-vs-Gold.pdf

>>509942
The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin - HD Documentary
finally
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/11183060/The_Rise_and_Rise_of_Bitcoin_-_HD

>>509936
This bread gives me goosebumps
this is the fucking future
So what can we expect in the coming months?

ITT: Delusional bagholders

>>509986
>So what can we expect in the coming months?
Well this is pure speculation however gazing into my crystal ball this is what I see coming:

More payment processors like paypal will be investigating blockchain technology and bitcoin.

More exchanges will be launched in more countries opening up the much discussed remittances market in each country.

Established exchanges will be looking at the CFTC for guidelines here in the US on how they can trade bitcoin. Hearing now at the CFTC: http://www.onlinevideoservice.com/clients/cftc/video.htm?eventid=cftclive

There is also a strong PR campaign being built. Companies like overstock are donating a % of bitcoin profits to bitcoin publicity. I expect this to become more common and we should see bitcoin commercials on mainstream TV in the next year.

Bitcoin publicity and non-profits like the digital chamber of commerce will grow extremely fast and start to gain a foothold in washington, lobbying to make sure bitcoin isn't obstructed by harmful regulation.

Oh and then the bitcoin stock exchange using counterparty, backed by overstock CEO will also be launched. This will allow us to trade everything, anywhere 24/7. Stocks, commodities, whatever.

We may also see the dawn of the much dreaded fedcoin, as some banana republics investigate National Currency for the Digital Age.

Things are starting to get exciting again.

>>509989
Thanks for contributing to the discussion. If you had any questions or even if you wanted to pick bitcoin apart and teach me why you think I am a bag holder I would love to discuss it with you.

If not, have a nice day anon.

>A few state of bitcoin Q3 slides

>Media stats

>Adoption stats

>Threatened markets
Read more:
http://www.coindesk.com/state-of-bitcoin-q3-2014-report-maturing-ecosystem-price-pressure/

>>510000
>Fucking get wasted on a crypto thread.

>>510007
>wasted
>crypto thread

pick one anon, if you listened to these threads sooner you wouldn't have to work anymore.

>>510004
I have a question
How can there be more wallets than addresses?

Shill hard thread, gotta keep the new people coming for the ponzi to make money.

>>510017
A Bitcoin address, or simply address, is an identifier of 26-34 alphanumeric characters, beginning with the number 1 or 3, that represents a possible destination for a Bitcoin payment.
>possible destination

A Bitcoin wallet is a file that contains a collection of private keys.

>>510025
Burden of proof, prove its a ponzi please.
To my knowledge no ponzi could operate with an open source transparent ledger.

But if you just want to shitpost like this troll>>509989 please keep it up, it proves how delusional you are.

>>510029
>early adopters buy in cheap
>hype it up to draw more people in
>as more people pump money into it, price increases
>early adopters sell for mad gainz
>later adopters need to keep drawing people in to not lose their shirts
At no point in the process is bitcoin generating wealth.

Sure is a lot of shillfag up in this thread. Why does /biz/ always sound like a used car lot?

>>510034
>At no point in the process is bitcoin generating wealth.

It solved the double spend problem.
It is the fastest way to send money anywhere.
It is the most secure way to send money online.
It generated over $4,000,000,000.00 in wealth already so I have no idea what your talking about.

Early adopters are always rewarded more than late adopters because they take more risk. A ponzi takes money from new adopters and gives it to old adopters pretending its profits of some kind. Bitcoin doesn't do that, bitcoin alows for late adopters to sell there stake whenever they want at whatever price they want. Works just like a free market should.

>>510042
hey look more shitposting at least this guy>>510034 tried.

>>510034
Bitcoin is also allowing easy peer to peer international transfers of value. That may not sound directly like "creating wealth", but it's at least as good as "providing liquidity", and no one says HFT is a ponzi scheme.

>>510051
>it generated over $4billion in wealth
No, it didn't. That's just money that's been pumped into it. Bitcoin has no revenue stream. It sells no product or service to consumers that increase the value of the business. It pays no interest or dividends. It's not even a consumable good that must be replenished.
>not a literal ponzi
It still effectively acts as one. The value is entirely speculative.

>>510061
>no product or service
>most secure way to send money
>fastest way to send money anywhere
ummm.... I think you need to look up what a service is.

>The value is entirely speculative.
All value is speculative anon.

>>510051
Lol I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Bitcoin threads are spammed here daily. You need to just accept that most people in business and finance are not gullible which is why you can't pull the wool over their eyes. Maybe go back to Reddit where there is a lot of dumb impressionable kids? The majority of people here despise Bitcoin shills and that's only going to get worse the more you post.

>>510061
Isn't that the whole point of it? To get people to 'double down' as the price drops, as they lose money, so they can continue giving money to early adopters as the early adopters sell their coins...

>>510065
>I think you need to look up what a service is
You first. Bitcoin is not generating wealth when you use it to send money. Is it a medium of exchange? Yes. Does that make it a sound investment? No.
>all value is speculative anon
2deep4me. You know what I mean. It has no assets or revenue.

>>510068
hey look more shitposting. at least this guy>>510061 is arguing his stance, and I respect him even if I disagree with him.

If you had listened to these threads when they first popped up you wouldn't have to work anymore, sure past performance is no grantee of future performance but the fact that you think venture capitalists would dump over $300,000,000.00 into start ups centered around a scam is kind of funny. Those guys don't just throw money away. You could engage in a debate and tell me how bitcoins are a scam or better yet how we could make our own bitcoins and grab that $4 BILLION floating around in the bitcoin currency right now. However you probably have nothing constructive to add to this thread besides your opinion. You have no facts, you have no argument so why are you here?

>>510078
>startups
Startups are actually a viable investment though. They actually provide services.

>>510065
How secure do money transfers need to be? When was the last time a hacker did a brute force attack into a banks internal servers? All this extra level of cryptography and consensus is a huge unneeded waste of energy. The electricity and computing power should be put to something actually useful.

>>510072
Please tell me more about the whole point of bitcoin. How did you discover this whole point of bitcoin? Can I read anything on this subject?

Bitcoin has a different purpose and point for each individual. It gives you full control over your money, you may decide whatever you want to do with it, without authorization from a central 'trusted' entity.

>>510074
The sound investment part comes in with bitcoin being limited in supply, it basically gold augmented within the internet. It isn't a company, it is a protocol. Like email or the internet, except you can own a share of it. It is the best medium of exchange, that will be worth a shinny bit. The protocol formed a network that provides a service and a currency for that service. Because I think this service has a very bright future and the currency is very limited I expect its value to increase to something similar to what pantera capital said it could be worth reference:>>509942

>>510078
> $4 billion
Considering the market cap was $5 billion just a month ago thats pretty funny. If it is real value how do you lose a billion dollars worth in a month? Smoke and mirrors.

>>510083
>gold
Gold isn't a sound investment either.
>it is a protocol
Yes. That doesn't mean it's valuable in and of itself. You don't own "internet", you own companies that use the internet. Investing in a medium of exchange is silly.
>Pantara
It's just a hypothetical exercise. You're delusional if you think it'll ever trade that high.

>>510079
>They actually provide services.
For bitcoin.

Its like this the start-ups are similar to gold merchants or jewelers. The miners are similar to the miners obviously and bitcoin is similar to gold. You wouldn't fund a start-up in the bitcoin ecosystem if you thought bitcoin was dead.

>>510082
>How secure do money transfers need to be?
Good question. As secure as possible. Its money after all.

>When was the last time a hacker did a brute force attack into a banks internal servers?
Last week
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-29/jpmorgan-hack-said-to-span-months-via-multiple-flaws.html

>All this extra level of cryptography and consensus is a huge unneeded waste of energy.

"The utility of the exchanges made possible by Bitcoin will far exceed the cost of electricity used. Therefore, not having Bitcoin would be the net waste." -Satoshi

>The electricity and computing power should be put to something actually useful.
It is securing the independence of the protocal, basically securing each transaction. That isn't a waste. Also you could see alt coins like CURE who try to use it for discovering medical cures. Other forms of bitcoin will take the blockchain technology in different directions but they will probably not be as profitable.

>>510084
>Any stock market crash ever
The volatility is what makes it so profitable anon, what goes up can come down. The point is that it doesnt go down more than up like something we know>>510065


>>510085
>Gold isn't a sound investment either.
Well we disagree.
>Investing in a medium of exchange is silly.
Again disagree
>delusional
Well one of us is, time will tell.

>>510088
Looks like you have no allies in this thread. I guess everyone is as tired of Bitcoin shills as I am. Maybe take your bullshit somewhere else, huh?

dare i say it... what do you guys think of PND ?

>>510107
Go to the crypto general thread, personally I think altcoins is gambling.

>>510093
Bitcoiners are just tired of arguing with shills. I am more than happy to discuss bitcoin today. Might does not make right.

>>510116
>Bitcoiners are just tired of arguing with shills
>implying that anti-shills are shills
You dumbfuck you started this shitty thread.

>>510093
>Maybe take your bullshit somewhere else, huh?
What are you talking about dumb nigger? /biz/ was created because of Bitcoin.

>>510117
shills are those paid to post.
I can't prove that I am not so you will have to take my word on it.
Creating the thread only makes me OP.

>>510120
/biz/ was created as a crypto containment board to keep it off /pol/ but bitcoin has ig political implications for the future. However shitposters gotta shitpost.

>>510120
>/biz/ was created because of Bitcoin
>to keep Bitcoin off the other boards
I want to start a petition to ban it off this board too. I'm sure we have enough numbers to make this possible.

>>510107
I like it. As to whether it's better than BTC I've yet to see. BTC has a big head start and people might not want to switch. I'm holding a few myself (<1BTC) because i'm sure the price will sky rocket. It certainly is better than every other alt coin. But if you're asking if you should invest, i can't tell you what to do.

>>510123
>shills are those paid to post.
Wrong. Shills don't need to be directly paid if they have other ways to benefit from promoting something. Are you here because you are a nice guy and just want everyone to buy Bitcoin because they will benefit so much from its uses? kek someone give this man the humanitarian award!

>>510125
Right, so now that you finally got the message through your nigger skull why don't you just fuck off?

>>510132
ahahaha

>>510134
Shiet Tyrone, why do you have to make it harder than it has to be?

>>510129
>Are you here because you are a nice guy and just want everyone to buy Bitcoin because they will benefit so much from its uses?
Yes. I have been talking about bitcoin on 4chan for 2 years now, the change is remarkable.

>>510132
Don't feed the trolls, pitty him. That anon may not get out of the way before the fiat currencies implode and his life could take a drastic turn in the wrong direction. I pitty those who shitpost, they have no facts or arguments, they just insult or throw logical fallacies out like they are argument cheat codes.

>Andreas talking to Canadian senate
Brilliant.

http://youtu.be/xUNGFZDO8mM

>>510136
These threads always end in Bitcoiners getting all butthurt. Relax dude, I know you dumped your life savings into this scam but don't take it out on me.

>>510143
You have provided no good arguments against bitcoin. I am not butthurt in the least anon. I know your ignorance is not completely your fault, however you are doing your best to remain so.

>>510143
You got me Tyrone, at least for fucks sake if you're gonna shit on bitcoin 24/7 have a horse in it, when I shit on bitcoin I usually have a short behind it.
It's like you niggers don't even /biz/.

If you're gonna do it don't do it for free lol.

>>510144
Let's keep this thread going. At least now it's an anti-Bitcoin thread. I like where this is headed.

>>510146
shorts are at record highs right now
might not be a good idea to e bearish on bitcoin anymore this year
http://bfxdata.com/bitfinexLiquidityBTC.php

>>510148
I still see no arguments against bitcoin.

At first you were all
>ITS NOT MONEY
then it was all
>YOU WILL BE SQUASHED BY BANKS AND REGULATORS
now its like
>I have no good argument but your an idiot!

toplel keep it up shitposter

>>510152
>At first you were all
>ITS NOT MONEY
No I wasn't. I never posted any of that. I've just been telling you that people don't like Bitcoin shills and that you should go somewhere else where people don't know that you're retarded.

>>510155
Sorry I meant the doubters in general.
Again I am not a shill.
This is the internet. You can go somewhere else and ignore me.
I started a thread on bitcoin, dont want to talk about bitcoin leave.

>>510146
Hey as long as he's passionate about what he's doing and posts on /r/bitcoin too where the crowd is far bigger I'm ok with it, keep it up brah!

>>510162
>talk about bitcoin being a ponzi

>>510162
If this is a thread about Bitcoin then I am here because I don't like Bitcoin shills. I am sticking to the topic to talk about how insanely annoying Bitcoin shills are. If you are annoyed by me now then that makes me happy.

>>510169
>sticking to the topic
Please tell me more about how your sticking it to the topic. All I see is your unfounded shitposting. I didn't say I was annoyed by you, I pity you. and you>>510167

I would love the opportunity to discuss bitcoin with someone who thinks its a scam, unfortunately all those people are quite uninformed about the topic.

Please show me any evidence at all that suggests bitcoin is a scam. I'll wait. :)

>Well this looks optimistic
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-09/bitcoin-not-just-for-libertarians-and-anarchists-anymore

Even as the value of Bitcoin has fallen 55 percent this year against the dollar (price on Oct. 8: $344), consumers are embracing the digital currency.
People have opened 41 million Bitcoin accounts worldwide, according to the Bank of England. Parents are dispensing allowances in Bitcoin to teach their kids to be digital citizens. Marijuana smokers are buying buds from Bitcoin-enabled vending machines.
Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use Bitcoin to hedge their volatile currencies. While the total value of Bitcoin commerce isn’t known, Gil Luria, an analyst at Wedbush Securities, estimates global spending on goods and services using the currency has doubled in the past year.

>>510166
Yeah, he's doing a good job as long he sticks to shitting on Bitcoin and not requesting to ban it from the board, wish we had more like him on Reddit.

>>510175
I am talking about Bitcoin shills being annoying which is related to Bitcoin. If you don't like it then you can leave. I am sorry you have such low sensitivities.

>>510175
>implying bitcoin isn't a scam

>>509936
How do you feel about Litecoins?

The LTC/BTC ratio has always been the golden standard of .015. Lately it's been going downhill, and is now at 0.009 conversion.

I think Litecoins are going to go back up in value ratio wise in conjuncture to Bitcoins. I'm not a shill, I've sold my 40mil PNDs for 2 BTCs, I'm just saying I think Litecoins in the short run have a higher profitability chance now to gain a higher value ratio faster than Bitcoin can grow.

Right now BTC = $353
LTC = $3.81
LTC/BTC=0.009

>>510180
>Litecoins
Again this isnt crypto general but litecoin has out performed bitcoin consistently in bubble season so far.

>>510179
Still waiting on proof anon. Let us discuss this with facts unless you don't have any?

>>510184
>Let's start with what actual traders like noriel Roubini and Warren buffet say about it.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101479123
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bitcoin-a-ponzi-scheme-fraud-marathon-s-richards-xkVBN0BCTYOh5O13JTt2Ug.html
>Let's move on to how your coins can't be confiscated
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/15/us-bitcoin-mtgox-idUSBREA3E02S20140415
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/01/20/feds-seize-silk-roads-28-million-bitcoin-wallet/
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/bitcoinica-users-sue-for-460k-in-lost-bitcoins/
>Moving on to some 'controversies' involving famous bitcoin conartists
http://nypost.com/2014/03/06/bitcoin-firm-ceo-jumped-to-her-death-neighbor/
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-04-14/business/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-bitcoin-20140414_1_bitinstant-charlie-shrem-robert-faiella
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2014/09/23/ftc-shuts-down-bitcoin-miner-butterfly-labs.html?page=all
>Bitcoin works until the exchange doesn't want it to
http://www.coindesk.com/bitstamp-resume-bitcoin-withdrawals-btc-e-working-solution/
http://bitcoinviews.com/dont-deposit-into-btc-e-withdrawals-arent-working-upvote-for-visibility/
>TL;DR the entirety of the bitcoin "industry" is rife with con artists and spinsters looking for an easy way to make a buck and anyone gullible enough to fall for it will inevitably end up a baghodler

>>509942

>>510196
>Let's rebut with what actual tech people say about it
Gavin Andresen - Helped develop bitcoin
Sean Parker & Peter Thiel - Funding bitcoin statups like bitpay and opencoin
Bill Gates - "Bitcoin is better than currency"
Winklevoss Twins - Bitcoin ETF

>confiscation
My coins are stored using a multi-signature address. They can not be confiscated without three separate signatures from me. Come and get em.

>bitcoin conartists
Bitcoin is money it will be used as money by everyone. Bad guys too.

>Bitcoin works until the exchange doesn't
The bitcoin network is fully functional without any exchanges at all. Not to mention bitcoin will soon be on the normal regulated exchanges and it is also inspiring a completely new type of distributed p2p exchanges with no central servers or control of users coins.

>TL;DR Th entire fiat currency industry is rife with con artists like charles ponzi or central bankers looking for an easy wat to make a buck on anyone gullible enough to believe the stock market isn't rigged against them.

Your move batman.

>>510208
>Your move batman.
Looking sexy Robin.

I hate when Nocoiner trolls come to bitcoin threads because it's always awkward watching them get shit on
it's like /b/ level trolling, pick it up /biz/

>>510217
I'm pretty sure I refute everything they bring up and they are only left with shitposts. However this one>>510213 ade me lol

>>510217
Maybe you should go back to /b/ then? I think you will be more comfortable there.

>>510223
>wa wa wa I dont like you cuz you have a different opinion

idk... it sounds more like /pol/ than /b/

>>510226
I wasn't the one that said I came from /b/? Reading comprehension, dummy.

>>510228
No one said they came from /b/
I didn't say you came from /b/
I said you sound like /pol/
>reading comprehension, dumbass.

>>510232
Again, reading comprehension. If someone refers to "/b/ level trolling" it means they must spend time on /b/ to even know what that is. Were you born an idiot or was this just something that happened over time?

>>510208
>Winklevoss Twins
>Incompetent jerkoffs
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1579346/000119312513279830/d562329ds1.htm
Their ETF has been in the SEC for over a year now. It's not going to happen
>Gavin Andresen
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/gavin-andresen-suspects-ponzi-schemes-bitcoin-cloud-mining/
>bitcoin foundation
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1514441/bitcoin-foundation-members-quit-over-election-troubled-ex-disney-child
>bitcoin foundation leadership made over 5 million dollars last year for doing nothing.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/static/2014/05/Bitcoin-2013-990-PDC.pdf
>everyone in bitcoin leadership not being a conartist
http://cointelegraph.com/news/112100/st-kitts-shuts-down-vers-citizenship-for-bitcoin-program-threatens-legal-action
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603742/British-boss-Bitcoin-virtual-currency-firm-wanted-Cyprus-suspicion-fraud.html
>totally can't be seized
http://cir.ca/news/silk-road-20
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2014/01/20/feds-seize-silk-roads-28-million-bitcoin-wallet/
>I could do this all day, but unfortunately I have other shit to attend to. Good luck with your ponzi though.

>>510088
>The volatility is what makes it so profitable anon,

No, that would be the earnings that are spend of dividends, buybacks, acquisitions, and growth- y'know, things that actually create value.

Also, just a general question:

>shills

Has any Bitcoiners ever managed to produce a single verified instance of an individual being paid real money to post anti-Bitcoin views for nefarious purposes? Because there are plenty of examples of people being paid to shill for Bitcoin (eg, Butterfly Labs buying buttcoin.org, etc.), but I can't think of any examples of lucratively compensated anti-Bitcoin shilling.

>>510241
>blames the twins for the SEC's incompetence.

>gavin called out bad actors in the bitcoin network, obviously gavin is a bad actor too.

>bitcoin foundation
members quit, so what? The bitcoin foundation is not the only way to change bitcoin.

>omg there are bitcoin con artists
just like the dollar conartists or the euro con artists... really this is a tired argument that holds no weight.

>totally can't be seized
multi-signature wallets. look into it, they can't be seized.
the silk road did not use a multi-sig wallet. if it did, the feds never would of been able to move the coins.

>2014 still doesn't know the definition of ponzi
keep up the ignorance anon, its because of people like you that we can still buy coins for a few hundred dollars a piece! Too bad your going to have some hardships when the monopoly money of yours fails.

>>510269
I thought I had been over this, bitcoin already created a multi billion dollar market in half a decade. Saying, no thats just money pumped into it, is ridiculous. That's how every investment has worked ever.

>>510273
>>510273
Evidence of shills?

Well we know the government is paying some shills.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-24/conspiracy-theory-true-agents-infiltrate-websites-intending-manipulate-deceive-and-d

Why would the government want to shit on bitcoin? Maybe if it gains too much usage, they will not be able to implement monetary policy effectively, or that is what the BOE said about bitcoin recently.

So as I can not provide any smoking guns I can say that
>bitcoin threatens government currency monopoly
>by threatening this monopoly it threatens the entire financial system
>governments are spending untold amounts of money to hire shitposters

So maybe they are all just ignorant and the government only wants to shill about guns, immigration, war... but I see no reason they wouldn't put bitcoin on that list too.

I mean if the all powerful central banks would rather release a report saying "this could be a threat" instead of blowing it up it could only mean they couldn't blow it up. In that case the last measures they have are capital controls, regulation and misinformation.

P.S. claiming OP ID

>>510332
>governments are spending untold amounts of money to hire shitposters
AHAHAHAHAH
Oh shit you delusional fool. LMAO so you are a tinfoil nut too? You went full retard bro.

>>510338
>doesn't follow Greenwald's Snowden reporting
"Greenwald's latest revelation focuses on GCHQ’s previously secret unit, the JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group).

Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable."

I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to people but you are either majorly uninformed or your... you know... :^)

>>510338
>here is a little more sense you didn't bother to read the artcle

"Greenwald's conclusion is spot on:

These agencies’ refusal to “comment on intelligence matters” – meaning: talk at all about anything and everything they do – is precisely why whistleblowing is so urgent, the journalism that supports it so clearly in the public interest, and the increasingly unhinged attacks by these agencies so easy to understand. Claims that government agencies are infiltrating online communities and engaging in “false flag operations” to discredit targets are often dismissed as conspiracy theories, but these documents leave no doubt they are doing precisely that.

Whatever else is true, no government should be able to engage in these tactics: what justification is there for having government agencies target people – who have been charged with no crime – for reputation-destruction, infiltrate online political communities, and develop techniques for manipulating online discourse? But to allow those actions with no public knowledge or accountability is particularly unjustifiable."

>>510332

>individual being paid real money to post anti-Bitcoin views for nefarious purposes

Keep trying to move the goalposts. I want a specific instance of anti-Bitcoin shilling for financial gain.

>>510342
AHAHAHAH so you think the government is paying people to shit on Bitcoin when the Fed itself is for it? That is funny as hell dude. You went to a whole other level of stupidity.

>>510348
I didn't move the goalposts at all. I admitted to not knowing of any smoking gun.

>>510349
The fed is for bitcoin?
Where did you learn this?

>>510352
>http://www.coindesk.com/federal-reserve-bitcoin-potential-boon-global-commerce/
>http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115801/bernankes-bitcoin-comments-signal-growing-acceptance
>http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-18/u-s-agencies-to-say-bitcoins-offer-legitimate-benefits.html
They aren't threatened at all by it. How the hell do you not know this?

bitcoin is dumb as shit. it's not really that useful of a tool and no matter how many neckbeards pound the table in front of me telling me about how "its da future" I'm not convinced.

enjoy your "regulated" exchanges though. whatever that even means.

>>510331
>That's how every ponzi has worked ever.
FTFY

>stealing from bitcointalk thread
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=400235.msg9147117#msg9147117

Just attended open meeting of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission in Washington DC. Under discussion was the regulatory framework for BTC derivatives in the US. Most of the meeting was spent explaining several aspects of the Bitcoin protocol and currency.

http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr7010-14

>CFTC should aim for a light regulatory touch in order to foster BTC development and financial innovation and efficiency in the US.

>CFTC commissioners believe bitcoin (or something like it) is here to stay, and they need to stay ahead of the learning curve.

> BTC derivatives are key to reduce volatility in an illiquid market and to provide hedging instruments to institutional players.

> BTC should be viewed as a commodity, not a currency, on the argument that although it presently functions as a currency, it has many other use cases.

>Programmable nature of BTC allows for regulatory objectives to be embedded into the code of swaps/futures/other instruments or contracts thus eliminating need for intrusive oversight.


Looks like the Commodity Futures Trading Commission didn't call it a ponzi? Shouldn't they know what a ponzi is? Hmmm.... ;)

>>510356
>aren't threatened at all
Don't be mislead by the talking heads anon, the banks know its a threat.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/11/bitcoin-threat-financial-stability-uk-bank-of-england

>>510365
Name one open source ponzi with a transparent ledger. Oh wait you cant because by definition a ponzi needs a private ledger.

>>510372
>Name one open source ponzi with a quazi transparent ledger
Bitcoin

>>510372

How about Enron? Every transaction of Enron stock was recorded in a public ledger (the NYSE and DTCC)

All a Ponzi scheme needs is for false value to be created by constant inflows so original owners can cash out. Ledgers don't have shit to do with it.

>>510367
>implying CFTC approval means it isn't a ponzi
>implying the CFTC isn't a sham and involved in turning a blind eye to all types of illegal market manipulation
http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/08/04/another-settlement-jp-morgan-receives-slap-on-the-wrist-despite-years-of-fraudulent-cftc-data/

>>510362
> I dont see the use
> Therefor it has no value
It's ok anon, bitcoin is voluntary. You don't have to join the community that is building the financial tools to replace the current system. I simply suggest you may want to look into it.

>>510369
>taking Bitcoin propaganda seriously

>>510378
Bitcoin isn't a ponzi so.... yeah.

>>510379
Enron cooked there ledgers.
>ledgers dont have anything to do with it?
ok buddy.

>>510380
Yes regulators cozy up to banks, its the problem with our system. Solution? Bitcoin, get rid of the bank.

>>510385

Bitcoin can't possibly replace the current system, ironically enough for reasons that the typical bitcoiner thinks are net benefits.

With BTC supply fixed, the only way the money supply can expand in the long run is through the creation of deposits through fractional reserve free banking. Otherwise the economy will be stuck in constant deflation and nobody will invest in anything.

But the one thing the typical bitfag hates above even fiat money is fractional reserve banking, to the point where the govenrment's subtle euthanasia of BTC- the requirement all institutions acceptiong deposits denominated in crypto currency hold full reserves at all times- was met with cheers from them.

>The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin
is final on TPB
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/11183060/The_Rise_and_Rise_of_Bitcoin_-_HD

I'll be back to reply to all you lovely people after the show. Including you mr.smileyfacebitcoinisaponzibutihavenoevidenceguy.

>>510390
Bitcoin is as prone to market manipulation as any other commodity. Look at what happened to silver and its market cap dwarfs that of Bitcoin by a landslide.

>>510399
I'm laughing pretty hard at the title. Bitcoin value has fallen at least 50% YTD

>>510394
>deflationary spirals only apply to fraction reserve financial systems
Also there is a difference between expected deflation and unexpected deflation. See Krugman's book Economics
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral

>>510399
>impying bitcoin isn't a ponzi.

>>510408

Yes, and expected deflation is worse.

Look, stocks have historically returned 6% per year in real terms, plus inflation. But if you have regular deflation of more than that, then noboy in their right mind will ever buy any stock, because they can always earn a higher return (0% nominal) by holding cash, which has no volatility. So given the choice between investment (risk, lower returns) and hoarding (zero risk, higher returns) everybody rationally chooses hoarding and the economy shuts down.

Now do you understand why this is a problem?

>>510429
Except bitcoin is inflationary at a predictable rate.

>what is block reward?

>>510505

>monetary inflation is equivalent to price inflation

Nope m80. Not the same at all.

It may be useful but it shouldn't be an investment by the simple nature of it.

If it is to function for what it is intended it should find a value and shouldn't change from its side.

As an unbacked medium of exchange the only change would result from trouble in other currencies.

>>510385
>You don't have to join the community that is building the financial tools to replace the current system.

not going to happen. anything else?

>>510332
>>governments are spending untold amounts of money to hire shitposters

no anon, you are the shitoster

>>510429
>expected deflation is worse.
source?

Regardless of your opinion on the matter it hasn't stopped bitcoin's economy so either your theory isn't worth much or bitcoin is magic internet money after all. Except bitcoin is open source so we know it runs on code and electricity not magic.
>It is working now but it cant work in my theory
your theory only applies to fraction reserve systems. The world did pretty good on the gold standard too.

>>510505
Bitcoin is inflationary till around 2140 in the sense that new bitcoins are being created but because this rate of creation has a predictable rate of decline this creates deflation due to limited supply.

>>510508
Monetary inflation is a sustained increase in the money supply.

Price inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.


>>510412
oh hey look its that guy that keeps following me around telling me its a ponzi... burden of proof? can you prove its a ponzi? are you shorting bitcoin? If your not, then why not?

>>510527
>shitoster
Shitposter: a user that contributes nothing to a discussion but logical fallacies or unfounded claims.

What have you contributed to the discussion anon?

>>510429
I'm not extremely pro or anti bitcoin, but this post caught my attention. Could this be a genuine stumbling block to bitcoin being used a currency (instead of fiat)? I think your reasoning might be flawed because if a company's stock was listed in bitcoin rather than dollars, just as inflation reduces a companies real value, bitcoins deflation would increase it, neutralising the benefit of hoarding rather than benefiting from deflation and a company's growth. Might be wrong, let me know.

>>510528
>your theory only applies to fraction reserve systems. The world did pretty good on the gold standard too.

Newsflash: The US was on a fractional reserve system during the gold standard era. Banks held gold in reserves, and then issued banknotes in whatever quantity they felt comfortable issuing- they weren't regulated by the government, so it's also called the "free banking" era.

These notes were what functioned as the "money supply", not the gold that was the reserves. Because of this, credit could be extended or contracted as necessary, and grow even in the absence of additional gold to the system. Since Bitcoin can't create deposits in this manner (because it's illegal!), they money supply is limited to the bitcoin itself, which means it will be more volatile and much more deflationary than even the gold standard.

>>510534
A stocks value does not come from the currency it is denominated in and the currency will have little impact on the real value of a stock. So if you denominate your stock in bitcoin, your stock has a value and as bitcoin rises, if your company don't match that rise in value, your overall stock price will decrease to reflect its value in the new bitcoin price.

>>510535
>during the gold standard era
Even prior to 1913? The industrial revolution was pretty cool.

>>510535
>which means it will be more volatile and much more deflationary than even the gold standard.
This is true, and why I like bitcoin.

>>510540
>Even prior to 1913? The industrial revolution was pretty cool.

Yes. There was no central bank for a period of around 100 years, but still fractional reserve banking.

In fact, pretty much every financial system in the Western world post-renaissance has been fractional reserve.

>>510535
I don't mean to divide this reply up so much but also if you could do it with gold, you can do it with bitcoin. You can make a bitcoin bank that gives out bitcoin IOUs and uses a fractional reserve system. I just don't see the demand for that just yet.

>>510542
With the one defining difference that we used precious metal coins and people had a choice between inflationary currency and precious metals. They were forced to give up precious metals. If inflation is so much better, why did they have to force people to give it up?

>>510541
Are you liking Bitcoin more and more every time the value takes a nosedive? Or that doesn't bother you much because you like losing money?

>>510544

You can't. It will very soon be illegal to accept any cryptocurrency deposits that are not 100% backed by cryptocurrency of the same type the deposits are in.

>>510549
>They were forced to give up precious metals

Last time I checked, the US still mints and sells precious metal coins that are legal tender. Plenty of people own, trade, and deal in precious metals. Nobody has been "forced" to give them up after they were unpegged in the 70's, and if anything, ownership and investment are more widespread than ever.

>>510551
>bitcoin price goes up (like lots durring bubble season)
Awesome! I can buy cool shit.

>bitcoin price goes down
Awesome! I can buy more bitcoins.

at least this is what I have been doing for a year, I did take a big loss when i first started. fortunately that was april 2013 but when the price crashed i looked at the fundamentals and nothing had changed. It just became a better buy.

>>510553
awh well, sounds like the banks dont want to give that little power away but like I have said. I don't fear deflation or full reserve banking.

>>510559
>Awesome! I can buy more bitcoins.
So the more the value tanks month after month the more you buy! Sounds super legit, no flaws in that plan!

>>510558
I was talking about Executive Order 6102.

"forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States"

Of course they started selling it again but its kinda funny that they had to force people to give it up. I mean just read this thing

"By Executive Order Of The President of The United States, March 9, 1933.

By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5 (b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended by Section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, in which Congress declared that a serious emergency exists, I as President, do declare that the national emergency still exists; that the continued private hoarding of gold and silver by subjects of the United States poses a grave threat to the peace, equal justice, and well-being of the United States; and that appropriate measures must be taken immediately to protect the interests of our people.

Therefore ... I hereby proclaim that such gold and silver holdings are prohibited, and that all such coin, bullion or other possessions of gold and silver be tendered within fourteen days to agents of the Government ... for compensation at the official price, in the legal tender of the Government.

All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed ... All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver ... are hereby prohibited.

Your possession ... and/or safe deposit box to store them is known by the government from bank and insurance records. Therefore ... your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the Internal Revenue Service.

By lawful order ..., the President of the United States."

>>510565
Its worked out pretty well so far.
Yes I have a set dollar amount I buy every week, when the price 'crashes' I buy more than my reoccurring order.

>>510567
Damn son you must have lost a shitload of money if you buy every week. Bitcoin has been one of the absolutely worst investments this year. I feel really bad for you.

>>510570
This year I am down.
Overall I am up.

It helps that I kept buying after the crash in april and picked up coins for $60. Concidering bitcoin went from nothing to over a $1,000 in 5 years. I'm not worried. If bitcoin succeeds, and its becoming more likely every day that it is, then a million dollar bitcoin is pretty low. That is just my long term view of the technology.

Imagine if the internet had shares and you could own a part of it. Bitcoin is the internet of money, and owning a part of that is priceless to me. When bitcoin reaches $1,000,000 or higher, I still will be buying bitcoin.

>>510567
how many btc do you have?

>>510601
Over 100
Less than 1,000

I am by no means a bitcoin millionaire... yet. However its not like I bought them with my retirement account or leverage long and I don't short. I started with just spending money, then I made it part of my budget. I tell people to buy bitcoin instead of a lottery ticket every week.

>Best part of the Canadian meeting on bitcoin

http://youtu.be/8A4zmFxXqUo

>>510614
That's well spoken. So many people dismiss Bitcoin because of the price swings and ponziness feel, but the potential technology around Bitcoin hasn't even begun to have been visualized yet.

Faggots keep talking about bitcoin's price are just hoping to pump and dump. If you really cared only about the utility of it, the price per coin would be irrelevant. It's not an investment that you niggers got in on the ground floor. Mt Gox motherfucked you all.

>>510078
Venture capitalists absolutely throw lots of money away on startups and investments - alot of the time they lose horribly. Just because someone rich thinks it's a good idea, doesn't make it a good idea. And if it was, they're the ones making the money. Not joe schmo at home.

>>510619
In 1994 did you see what the internet would become by 2014? I didn't even have a computer until 1996.

>>510625
>price per coin irrelevant
No one who understands bitcoin really thinks this. The price is interlocked with bitcoin's performance. The higher the price the more secure and liquid the market is. You can't send $5 billion through a network with a market cap of $4 billion.

P.S. you are a very angry person

>>510629
No, just because someone else thinks its a good idea does not mean its a good idea. The fact that it gained so much so fast is a good indication that it is on the right track though.

Pantera is too bullish in my opinion.
I'd be totally ok with 10k$/BTC.

>>510644
>too bullish
They only took the total value of just about every market anywhere and divided it by the 21 million bitcoin.

Highly unrealistic?
Maybe.

The BOE has admitted monetary policy ends when bitcoin gets to a certain size. So lets say it does, monetary policy and capital controls become obsolete. Bitcoin is the dominate global reserve currency. In this extremelyextreme scenario, I am not so sure that millions per bitcoin is out of reach.

It does paint an awesome picture though.

>>510651
Fuck youre stupid

>>510051
>It is the most secure way to send money online.

>>510690
>>510678
ad hominem
burden of proof

>>510717
Go to bed billy. No amount of you shilling is going to bring the price out of the toilet.

>>510690

Lel

>>510719
ad hominem

>price out of the toilet
The average toilet these days costs between $200 and $400.
I expect us to be 'out of the toilet' with or without this thread. I simply like talking bitcoin, if you don't there are other threads around these parts anon.

>>510767
No, he's right Billy. Your talks are pointless. Bitcoin is dying.

>>510769
>Bitcoin is dying.
Burden of proof.4

I hope you understand I only with to convince the rational people reading this thread and logical fallacies are pretty easy to recognize.

>>510771
Convincing them what? To buy Bitcoin so you can offload on them? Naw I think anyone with a brain sees through your buttshillery.

>>510805
That bitcoins hold more promise than just getting rich. Although, that in it of itself should be enough to get people to look into it for themselves.

I'm not selling, but please keep coming back with less and less and less and less to contribute to the discussion. You bring less facts to the discussion than a politician and can't even manage a rational argument.

>>510816
I have two questions regarding bitcoin that I posted in another thread that was subsequently ignored. I wanted to ask what you guys thought of the deflationary properties of bitcoin, the fact that the supply is capped at 21 million seems like a huge problem to me.

Secondly, do you believe a fractional reserve banking industry in bitcoin is possible/desirable/inevitable, and if not, where would someone conceivably obtain, say, a home loan from in a world where bitcoin has become the dominant currency.

Full disclosure here, I'm almost certain that there will be a large well established cryptocurrency going forward in the future, and I'm equally certain that it WON'T be bitcoin. Bitcoin was proof of concept, the future will be something like ethereum imho.

>>510822
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral

The key difference is that people don't foresee a fixed cost (unit amount) that they must pay with Bitcoin. If the value of the Bitcoins that they own increases, then any future cost will take a proportionally smaller amount of Bitcoins. There isn't any fixed incentive to holding Bitcoin other than speculation.

If the economy that uses Bitcoin grows, the per-unit value of Bitcoin proportionally increases also.

Everything is the opposite of the popular fractional reserve banking system (because Bitcoin isn't a debt but an asset). Bitcoins only deflate in value when the Bitcoin Economy is growing.

Because the Deflationary spiral is a real problem in the traditional monetary system, doesn't necessarily mean that it will also be a problem in the Bitcoin economy.

"Elaborate controls to make sure that currency is not produced in greater numbers is not something any other currency, like the dollar or the euro, has," says Russ Roberts, professor of economics at George Mason University. The consequence will likely be slow and steady deflation, as the growth in circulating bitcoins declines and their value rises.

"That is considered very destructive in today's economies, mostly because when it occurs, it is unexpected," says Roberts. But he thinks that won't apply in an economy where deflation is expected. "In a Bitcoin world, everyone would anticipate that, and they know what they got paid would buy more then than it would now."

--MIT Technology Review: What Bitcoin Is, and Why It Matters, May 25, 2011

>>510822
>fractional reserve banking industry in bitcoin is possible/desirable/inevitable?

Possible? Yes.
Desirable? No.
Inevitable? Definitely Not.

You can start a bank right now and try yourself but you may not get a warm reception from the bitcoin crowed sense it was QE that inspired bitcoin to begin with.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

You are underestimating bitcoins network effect. Like the internet protocols the one that won and went mainstream was not the best not by a long shot but it was good enough. I believe bitcoin is good enough. However this is very risky, dont invest more than you can afford to lose and all that jaz. Divesting into other altcoins is a great strategy to mitigate the risk of missing out on the better bitcoin but so far bitcoin 2.0 projects have not gained momentum.

>>510598
>When bitcoin reaches $1,000,000 or higher, I still will be buying bitcoin.
>>510816
>I'm not selling
Never going to sell huh? You're a very special breed of Bitcoiner then. Either you are retarded as shit or full of shit. I'm going to say maybe both.

>>510822
>where would someone conceivably obtain, say, a home loan?

In the extreme scenario where bitcoin gains dominate currency status I am sure that banks would still exist, just in a much lesser and more decentralized form. So home loans, I would try your local bank. There is also the unique possibility of p2p lending. See bitfinex for a beta on that.

>>510831
Actually most of us never want to go back to monopoly currency. Also ad hominem logical falicy. You present no argument and attack the poster. Everyone here knows how big of a shitposter you are.

>>510824
>But he thinks that won't apply in an economy where deflation is expected

This strikes me as wrong. Look, I'm not one of the trolls on this thread arguing to get at you, I believe in blockchain applications. But in ALL cases of deflationary spiral, the individuals expected deflation too. If they didn't expect that their gold would be worth more tomorrow than it is today, there would have been no reason to hoard their money. I expect the deflation to be ultimately fatal to bitcoin, but I don't expect it to be a problem for quite a while, maybe a few decades.

>>510830
This is also seems a huge problem for me. No fractional reserve banking? I'm not a huge fan of the current system, which essentially allows the banks to create money via the money multiplier effect; but the experiences of the depression in 1929 and the mortgage meltdown in 2008 show that the effects of a frozen credit market are catastrophic for any modern economy. Without fractional reserve banking, a currency is doomed. I just don't see a long term future for bitcoin beyond a few decades. I believe in crypto, just not bitcoin.

>>510834
>Actually most of us never want to go back to monopoly currency
Do you live in the real world? This fantasy world you talk of is pretty bizarre. Unless you know of a way to pay for taxes in Bitcoin and force every employer to pay wages in Bitcoin (lmao good luck) then you're stuck with fiat.

>>510836
What cases are you basing this off of?
The most common reference of deflationary spiral was the great depression. That wasn't expected. Bascially this entire argument of deflationary spiral has already been debunked. If deflation was a huge problem then the bitcoin economy should of never got off the ground. Its the classic case of it doesn't work in theory but its working right now. So I think your theory may need editing.

>Without fractional reserve banking, a currency is doomed.
Again another example of it doesn't work in your theory but its working right now. Both the crises you listed were caused by fractional reserve banking.

> I just don't see a long term future for bitcoin beyond a few decades.
Well at current trends that puts us on the moon by then and if we reach the moon why would bitcoin suddenly kick the bucket?

>I believe in crypto, just not bitcoin.
That's funny considering the value of all crypto right now depends on bitcoin.

>>510830
>You are underestimating bitcoins network effect

I'm quite sure an individual in 2000 would have thought the same thing about napster. In a way, I actually HOPE your wrong. The flaws in bitcoin aren't going to become fatal for at least 20 years, at which point it may well have become a dominant global currency. When the cracks start to show, it will will make the mortgage meltdown look like a slight down tick. I'm hoping that the crypto community starts to switch to an alternative, more advanced coin. Either that, or bitcoin really needs to update it's code. As that requires a very wide consensus amongst miners and node users, I'm not optimistic.

>>510838
>force
No, bitcoin is voluntary.
>pay wages in Bitcoin
Yes I convinced my employer to pay me in bitcoin.
>Do you live in the real world?
Yes I live in the real world, do you? Because I still see no arguments but by all means keep bumping my thread.

>>510842
Bitcoin updates constantly. Gavin just published the scalability roadmap. Bitcoin doesn't think deflation is a problem, If you do try DOGE coin or PND, they are not limited in supply at all. No one is forcing anyone to use bitcoin, it is completely none-violent and voluntary. The crypto community is choosing the coin they want, so far that coin is bitcoin and for good reason. It is the most secure and it is going mainstream now, not in 5 years.

>>510843
>No, bitcoin is voluntary.
Exactly. Fiat isn't. You are forced to accept fiat as legal tender. You are forced to pay taxes in fiat.You are not forced to accept Bitcoin.
>Yes I convinced my employer to pay me in bitcoin
I said EVERY employer. Most companies won't touch Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole. Even the ones that accept it exchange it for fiat and don't even see 1 BTC.
>Yes I live in the real world, do you?
Do you believe in unicorns and leprechauns too? Because what you are saying is complete foolishness.

>>510840
>Bascially this entire argument of deflationary spiral has already been debunked. If deflation was a huge problem then the bitcoin economy should of never got off the ground

Well no; the theory doesn't need editing because it hasn't become a huge problem yet. At the present moment, bitcoin is actually inflationary due to it's very rapid adoption. It's full deflationary effects will be long term as it becomes harder and harder to mint new coins.

>Again another example of it doesn't work in your theory but its working right now.

>Well at current trends that puts us on the moon by then and if we reach the moon why would bitcoin suddenly kick the bucket?

It works right now because there are easy sources of credit in other fiat currencies. Nobodies taking out loans in bitcoin. What happens when bitcoin starts to win? Yes you may hit the moon in 20 years, but when the credit markets freeze you may wish you hadn't.

I do really wish to make it clear that I don't hate bitcoin; the blockchain is an incredible technology and an incredible gift; I just think it's fatally flawed long term. It will start to win, start displacing fiat in many economically under performing countries, then will lead to frozen credit markets ass people simple won't use banks. Miners will stop mining and a full deflationary spiral will begin. It's a frankly nightmarish scenario, and I think an argument for either fixing bitcoins code or moving to one of the altcoins.

>>510849
>You are forced to accept fiat as legal tender. You are forced to pay taxes in fiat.
Not sustainable, not moral, this will be obsolete eventually. Voluntarism is the only rational course of action.

Bitcoin doesn't need everyone to use bitcoin, it has built in incentives for people who are in it to get more people in it and the bigger it gets the stronger those incentives become and the faster the growth becomes.

>>510852
>What happens when bitcoin starts to win?
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/

Fiat Bleed to Currency Crises to Hyperbitcoinization

>Miners will stop mining and a full deflationary spiral will begin.
This makes no sense but then again I don't understand your fear of deflation either. Like I said, don't like it? Divest into an altcoin. Are you invested in any of the constantly inflationary coins? It seems like that is what your asking for and it exists but the market decided it wasn't worth much and I think for good reason.

>>510854
I think the problem on a site like 4chan is that most users are going to be from western europe, the U.S, or Australia/New Zealand, who have great, well managed, stable fiat currencies. They don't realise that bitcoin is well placed to absolutely crush the majority of currencies on this planet; any country that has a rudimentary telecommunication system and a failing fiat currency is going to have that currency supplanted by bitcoin. It will quite possibly become a major currency in Latin America and Africa, and maybe even South East Asia; but anyone that lives in the affluent west is going to think it's the most ridiculous thing they've ever heard of.

>>510854
>Not sustainable, not moral
Says you. Fiat has been around for a thousand years and worked just fine. If you are butthurt about over-taxation just move to a tax haven like any smart libertarian would do. After all of the financial regulation and IRS designations that Bitcoin recently falls under it will be treated just like any other commodity and taxed accordingly. You are not a special snowflake.

>>510861
Most bicoiners are still from 1st world countries judging by the nodes.

You are correct that the banked will not immediately see a benefit except for full control over your money, no fees and deflation rather than inflation.

However the possibilities of this technology have only just begun to be discovered. Its like predicting facebook in 1994.

>>510864
>Its like predicting facebook in 1994.
Or Myspace since we are going to throw out arbitrary comparisons here.

>>510863
>worked just fine
at redistributing wealth from the poor to banks but hey who cares about the poor being poorer or the war on the third world waged by banks for profit. The cool thing about bitcoin is, no one can prove I own it, except me. Want me to pay taxes statist? Too bad.

>>510861
>the majority of currencies on this planet; any country that has a rudimentary telecommunication system and a failing fiat currency is going to have that currency supplanted by bitcoin.
100% wrong. They all supplant their currency with another stable currency like USD, Yen or Euro, not some failing volatile commodity that has half its value this year and is already being banned in certain countries.

>>510859
>Like I said, don't like it? Divest into an altcoin.

I have no investment in any cryptocurrency. I have no investments of any kind. I live below the poverty line; I'm not asking for investment advice, the OP invited people to come and question and perhaps debate the pro's and cons of bitcoin, and I came.

> It seems like that is what your asking for and it exists but the market decided it wasn't worth much and I think for good reason.

I suspect the market chose the deflationary bitcoin because of first mover effect. I don't think it has anything to do with not being worried about the possibility of deflation, which the current orthodox economic consensus holds as being a disastrous eventuality.

>>510863
>Fiat has been around for a thousand years and worked just fine

I'm not the bitcoin proponent, but this is simply incorrect. Fiat has existed since 1971 in the U.S, when Nixon got rid of the Bretton Woods system (sp?), essentially backing his currency with nothing. Other western nations followed suit. Fiat has actually been tried a few times throughout history and ultimately failed every time. The current experiment is not practically different to the original 11th century chinese experiment with fiat money. Whilst I see bitcoin as fatally flawed, it's actually no less flawed than our dominant monetary paradigm

>>510867
Bitcoin has an even worse wealth distribution. The top 100 wallets own 20% of all Bitcoin.
>but Bitcoin is for the people!
Sure sure.

>>510875
>Fiat has existed since 1971 in the U.S,
Totally fucking wrong. Fiat has been around since at least 1000 A.D. with the first recorded instance in China.

>>510877
>redistribution=distribution
You just never cease to impress me. /s

>>510875
I have explained why deflation is not an issue. You disagree. That is your opinion, but I quoted an MIT research paper and another college professor saying your opinion is wrong. oh and don't worry about >>510863
he has been shitposting in this thread all day. It is almost like he is paid to be anti-bitcoin... ;^)

>>510877
I actually think if bitcoin becomes a dominant currency it will get worse. Quite a lot of bitcoin proponents seem to be against fractional reserve banking, making it extremely hard for the man on the street to afford a house or get a loan to start a business in a bitcoin economy. Where bitcoin is dominant, the very rich could potentially buy up all the land and properties and become massively wealthy absentee landlords, and the absence of loans for starting a business would make it very difficult for entrepreneurial individuals to climb out of poverty. Fiat isn't great, but I do not believe bitcoin is the answer. I'm much more excited by the new altcoins coming through.

>>510879
You may want to read the rest of the post. I mentioned the inital chinese experiment. Interestingly, the 11th century chinese experiment had a set exchange rate for a precious metal, but was never exchangeable for these in practice, making it exactly equivalent to the US currency after 1913. So one may argue not true fiat anyway.

>>510881
>redistribution=distribution
What does it matter if it is distribution or redistribution? The bottom line is that the wealthy own the majority of Bitcoins. You can't bring up wealth distribution at all as one of you arguments against fiat and then ignore the same thing when it comes to Bitcoin.

>>510882
>making it exactly equivalent to the US currency after 1913
My point was that fiat currency has been around way before it was used in the US. I always hear about people that say that fiat is doomed to fail but never give a reasonable explanation as to why. Fiat in the US is perfectly sustainable. The inflation rates have been relatively low for at least the last 30 years.

>>510881
> It is almost like he is paid to be anti-bitcoin... ;^)
>Someone is calling me out on my bullshit! Let's call him a shill!

>>510883
Redistribution is taking from someone to give to someone else.

The distribution of coins was completely decentralized and anyone could of started mining when bitcoin first came out. Having a lot of early adopters holding a big stake is common in business especially in investments and its generally a really good sign.

>>510882
So your just ignoring p2p lending then? and local banks? Banks do not need fractional reserves to make loans.

>Where bitcoin is dominant, the very rich could potentially buy up all the land and properties and become massively wealthy absentee landlords
Ok you definitely need to start sourcing because this is just unfounded and quite frankly impossible in the open market.

>>510884
>My point was that fiat currency has been around way before it was used in the US.

And my point was that if you read the inital post, the original chinese experiment was mentioned. Fiat money collapsed and had to be restarted several times throughout chinese history. And the same as true of the various other experiments across Europe and asia, and the current one in America. There is no reason to believe that this time will be an exception, the dollar has lost a significant fraction of it's value since 1971.

>>510884
>Fiat in the US is perfectly sustainable.
lmao okay well good-luck with that theory.

All fiat money eventually returns to it's intrinsic value. 0.

>>510886
>The distribution of coins was completely decentralized and anyone could of started mining when bitcoin first came out
Wrong. Very little people knew about BTC then. I would wager a guess that most of the large amounts of Bitcoin was mined by devs.
>early adopters holding a big stake is common in business especially in investments
Exactly. Bitcoin is a business where the early adopters made out like bandits and every straggler has to hope that the price of Bitcoin keeps going up to recoup the expense of buying BTC. But OOOOOPS! Bitcoin hasn't kept going up in value now has it?

>>510886
>So your just ignoring p2p lending then?

Explain this to me. How does p2p ending get me a home loan? I'm not challenging you, I'm honestly curious. I don't understand what p2p lending is and how it works.

>Banks do not need fractional reserves to make loans.

Err, they don't? Did I read this incorrectly? how can a bank make a loan with leaving only a fraction of the money that was originally deposited. Even if it has a reserve of 95% of deposit, that is still a fraction of 100%. Hence, a bank cannot make a loan without having a fractional reserve. Please make this point clearer.

>>510887
>the dollar has lost a significant fraction of it's value since 1971.
Of course it has. Just like every other major currency in the world. US inflation isn't any more pronounced than any other 1st world country, in fact it is relatively low. Money is worth less but compared globally to other world currencies USD is worth the same it was in 1971. It's just not an issue.

>>510888
All fiat money eventually returns to it's intrinsic value. 0
Bitcoin almost did that in 1 year. Hey we still have a couple months to go so I may be speaking too soon it still has time to tank the rest of the way.

>>510893
>Of course it has. Just like every other major currency in the world. US inflation isn't any more pronounced than any other 1st world country, in fact it is relatively low

I fail to see how this is an argument. Yes, the US fiat currency has devalued since 1971. Yes they have all devalued. Yes, this indicates that they are all unstable; and will be pushed out by better currencies. The US isn't special; it's not the only one thats going to devalue to zero, all the others are going down the same drain. I hate deflation, I hate inflation, I believe in, well flation. A dollar should be worth the same now as it does 100 years from now and should be worth the same as it was 100 years ago. Fiat doesn't do that. Bitcoin doesn't do that. But cryptocurrency is a hell of a lot closer to achieving zero inflation than fiat. How do you see this ending any other way than at a currency with zero value? I'm honestly confused as to how you can envisage any other endpoint to an inflating fiat currency.

>>510889
>Bitcoin hasn't kept going up in value now has it?
Time will tell.


>early adopters made out like bandits
>The top 100 wallets own 20% of all Bitcoin.
Pick one complaint and stick with it buddy.

>>510893
>I may be speaking too soon
you are. bitcoin is harder to kill than you think.

>>510896
look into the theory y dr Nash called ideal money

>>510896
>Yes, this indicates that they are all unstable; and will be pushed out by better currencies
No it doesn't. If the inflation stable and the rate is kept in check like it has been the last 30 years then the devaluation is entirely predictable and controllable, hence the purpose of the Fed. A low inflation rate is desirable because it promotes spending and helps the economy. A currency with no inflation is not a very good one. I envision a future where eventually a global one world currency will be created to be an end all but it won't be anything like the cryptos existing now and it won't be spawned out of some neckbeards basement.

>>510900
>Time will tell.
Time has told. Unless you consider this past year irrelevant?
>Pick one complaint and stick with it buddy.
How are those 2 statements opposed to each other. Can't some early adopters sell and make out like bandits while other early adopters decided to sit on them and hoard? I hope at least a dozen of them just lost their keys because that makes me smile.

>>510905
>this past year
Bitcoin is up over 250% from 10/10/2013

>Can't some early adopters sell and make out like bandits while other early adopters decided to sit on them and hoard?
Not in a ponzi but because bitcoin isnt a ponzi and it operates in the free market sure. You can do whatever you want with your bitcoin.

> I hope at least a dozen of them just lost their keys because that makes me smile.
You and me both. Then my coins will be worth that much more.

>>510900
At this stage in the game announcing crypto is dead is completely asinine. But thats not the same as my argument that it will eventually die. It will always be remembered as the grand experiment that started crypto economics, though.

>>510903
I have. It was mentioned in a book by Hayek that I read with interest.

>>510904
I really don't understand your reasoning. If you print money faster than your economy grows, that money will lose value as demand does not keep pace with supply. If you keep doing that, your currency will go to zero value. It's not complex, its just basic arithmetic. Maybe I'm missing your point? I don't understand how someone can miss that simple fact of economics. It will happen if the inflation rate is stable, it will happen if the inflation rate is kept in check, for 30 years or 90 years. It will happen as long as your currency has an inflation rate.

>>510909
>Bitcoin is up over 250% from 10/10/2013
A month before all the ridiculous hype. Bitcoin is down over 50% from the start of this year. That is 10 months of losing value.
>You can do whatever you want with your bitcoin.
Like not buy it? I think I will choose door number 3.

>>510912
Can I put a question to you? All three of us are fighting a two front war here. My disagreement with the bitcoin guy is obvious, with you less so. What would it take to change your mind regarding cryptocurrency?

>>510912
>50%
oh god no! not 50% whatever will we oh wait I have been in bitcoin for longer than a year so I have seen worse.

>Like not buy it?
only an idiot needs to ask this question.

>>510911
I shall check out Hayek, thanks.
There is a working theory that DrNash created bitcoin after a brief experiment with bitgold in 2005. The deflation is viewed as an improvement by many Classical and Austrian economists. Time will tell how successful this ends up being. I am happy to be a part of the experiment.

>>510913
>What would it take to change your mind regarding cryptocurrency?
I give props because you clearly defined this even though we disagree.

>>510911
>If you keep doing that, your currency will go to zero value.
A currency going to zero would mean a total collapse of the currency. Low inflation alone would not cause that. Inflation really only affects the cost of foreign goods, but if that foreign nation has the same level of inflation then the costs shouldn't change.

>>510913
>What would it take to change your mind regarding cryptocurrency?
I'm not sure you can. As long as it remains a Libertarians wet dream and shillers retirement plan I don't foresee me changing my mind.

>>510914
>only an idiot needs to ask this question.
Correct. A smart person would know its a stupid investment.

>>510917
I'm sorry but it's a plain result of arithmetic that if you keep inflating a currency it will eventually have a value of zero. You are absolutely right, that means a total collapse of the currency. Hence why fiat currency is unstable.

>Low inflation alone would not cause that

Yes it will. If you slowly devalue a currency, it's value will eventually reach zero, whether you do it slowly or otherwise.

>>510920
>I'm not sure you can. As long as it remains a Libertarians wet dream and shillers retirement plan I don't foresee me changing my mind.

As far as I'm concerned, this pretty much takes you out of the argument. Not all people who view the governments unlimited ability to print money with suspicion are far right anarcho capitalist loonies mate.

>>510896

Actually, fiat does do that. Keep in mind that when somebody hold dollars or euros or whatever, they aren't holding a physical pile of banknotes, but rather a checking account/money market/tbills. Look at the real return of those, and it's very steady and ever so slightly positive over the long run.

>>510923
you sure love those an hominems

>>510929
and not all anarcho capitalists are loonies.

>>510929
>if you keep inflating a currency it will eventually have a value of zero
Mathematically impossible even with an infinite timeline. The cause of the Zimbabwe collapse was hyperinflation which is something entirely different.

> Not all people who view the governments unlimited ability to print money with suspicion
I will admit I probably (unfairly) lump you all into one group. To me it is a separate issue though. If you have problems with government control of printing money then you should start a movement to either lobby your legislators or go into politics yourself. To think that the government and financial system will freely let something like crypto-currencies undermine how they finance defense spending and fiscal budgets is naive at best. If Bitcoin is allowed it will be regulated, taxed and folded into the status quo. It isn't the "fuck the Fed" type of technology that you think it is.

>>510914
>The deflation is viewed as an improvement by many Classical and Austrian economists.

I've heard the Austrian argument against deflation, if I may paraphrase? I should probably disclose that I have never formally studied economics before I begin, I majored in the hard sciences. I study economics as a hobby.

The Austrians tend to argue that deflation causes money hoarding; when prices drop, they have increased incentive to save. This removes money from circulation, causing the prices to drop still further, powering the vicious deflationary spiral. Typically, economies have a built in safe guard- the money is saved in a bank account, and is loaned out at interest and thus reinjected into the economy, shortcircuiting the deflationary spiral. The fact that lots of people like to save during deflationary episodes has the happy effect of driving down interest rates; as the supply of loanable funds goes up and demand remains the same, it drives down the cost (interest rate) of credit, thus encouraging borrowing.

The trouble with bitcoin is it isn't saved in bank accounts; it's stuffed into digital wallets where it cannot be reloaned out. The absence of fractional reserve banking removes the only safeguard to it's deflationary properties. As far as I'm concerned, I see that as dooming bitcoin long term.

>>510943
>If you have problems with government control of printing money then you should start a movement to either lobby your legislators or go into politics yourself.
what is the completely irrelevant end the fed campaign?

>To think that the government and financial system will freely let something
oh so it is a threat now? good luck killing it. smarter men than you have tried.

> If Bitcoin is allowed it will be regulated, taxed and folded into the status quo
duh, the difference being they wont be able to seize or freeze your funds without either your incompetence or permission making collecting taxes a bit more difficult if the user wants them to be. I personally do. Why the hell do I have to give currency back to the people that make it up? Shit hole of a system that is.

>>510943
We don't actually live in a compliant mathematical world where value curves asymptote away to a non zero endpoint. The cost of printing a dollar is non-zero, and hence inflation doesnt actually have to hit the zero point before time zero for a currency to collapse. When the value of the dollar falls below the cost of printing that dollar; it's value is essentially meaningless, even if technically the value curve shows the value asymptoting at zero infinitely far in the future.

>>510947
>cannot be reloaned
this is false. see bitfinex like I told you earlier. It is a p2p lending platform.

Deflation is not an issue please see:>>510824

>>510951
>what is the completely irrelevant end the fed campaign?
Then do something about it. Even if it doesn't come to anything it will be 100 times more effective than trying to circumvent fiat and land yourself in prison for tax evasion.

>oh so it is a threat now? good luck killing it. smarter men than you have tried.
That's my point. If they thought it was a threat they would just ban it like Russia did and make it a criminal offense. Obviously the US and Europe are not threatened at all. For them it is an extra tax revenue stream.

> freeze your funds without either your incompetence or permission making collecting taxes a bit more difficult if the user wants them to be
Have you ever told the IRS no? I haven't either. They don't take too kindly to that. I would rather have them freeze my assets then to prosecute me criminally for withholding taxes.

>>510951
>Why the hell do I have to give currency back to the people that make it up?

Actually this is a major reason why I DON'T agree that taxation is theft like the anarchists claim. It's their currency system. They started it, paid for it, supported it, nurtured it; if they want to put a tax on it that is no different to the potential miners fee on bitcoin. The result of this however, is that if I want to avoid taxes by keeping my money in cryptocurrency they have absolutely no right to stop me. I do have the right to not buy the fiat money they're selling me, if I don't agree to the terms of their contract.

>>510953
So they stop printing small bills? I agree that inflationary currency becomes cumbersome and in a couple centuries USD will be very unwieldy but that doesn't by any regards mean a collapse. By that time I am positive a global currency that is scalable will replace all currencies anyways so its a moot point.

Keep the arguments going, but I have to head to bed now. It's past midnight here. I'll chack the thread in the morning

>>510961
> I am positive a global currency that is scalable will replace all currencies anyways so its a moot point.
Finally something we agree on.
https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/10/a-scalability-roadmap/

>>511204
>implying bitcoin isn't a ponzi

>>511210
Hey look smiley guy is back!
>Burden of proof logical fallacy.
If you convince me it is a ponzi, I'll sell and shut up, but you kinda need facts to do that. Facts you don't seem to have.

>>509937
>thanks to canada
What's that? Haven't checked the news in a while.

>>511235
Canada held hearings on bitcoin.
They decided not to touch it, or regulate it for the next 5 years.
Basically solidifying canada as a pro bitcoin country for the rest of the decade and a safe haven for start-ups.

>>511235
Here is the best session
http://youtu.be/xUNGFZDO8mM

>>510029
It's obviously a Ponzi scheme; the commodity has no value other than perceived value, and then only to a bigger sucker than yourself.

Eventually, like all Ponzi schemes, you run out of bigger suckers.

>>511262
>Bitcoins have no intrinsic value (unlike some other things)
This is simply not true. Each bitcoin gives the holder the ability to embed a large number of short in-transaction messages in a globally distributed and timestamped permanent data store, namely the bitcoin blockchain. There is no other similar datastore which is so widely distributed. There is a tradeoff between the exact number of messages and how quickly they can be embedded. But as of December 2013, it's fair to say that one bitcoin allows around 1000 such messages to be embedded, each within about 10 minutes of being sent, since a fee of 0.001 BTC is enough to get transactions confirmed quickly. This message embedding certainly has intrinsic value since it can be used to prove ownership of a document at a certain time, by including a one-way hash of that document in a transaction. Considering that electronic notarization services charge something like $10/document, this would give an intrinsic value of around $10,000 per bitcoin.

>continued

While some other tangible commodities do have intrinsic value, that value is generally much less than its trading price. Consider for example that gold, if it were not used as an inflation-proof store of value, but rather only for its industrial uses, would certainly not be worth what it is today, since the industrial requirements for gold are far smaller than the available supply thereof.

In any event, while historically intrinsic value, as well as other attributes like divisibility, fungibility, scarcity, durability, helped establish certain commodities as mediums of exchange, it is certainly not a prerequisite. While bitcoins are accused of lacking 'intrinsic value' in this sense, they make up for it in spades by possessing the other qualities necessary to make it a good medium of exchange, equal to or better than commodity money.

Another way to think about this is to consider the value of bitcoin the global network, rather than each bitcoin in isolation. The value of an individual telephone is derived from the network it is connected to. If there was no phone network, a telephone would be useless. Similarly the value of an individual bitcoin derives from the global network of bitcoin-enabled merchants, exchanges, wallets, etc... Just like a phone is necessary to transmit vocal information through the network, a bitcoin is necessary to transmit economic information through the network.

Value is ultimately determined by what people are willing to trade for - by supply and demand.

>>511281
>the shill goes on

how do i into bitcoin OP? how can i mine bitcoin?

>>511284
Hey look smiley guy is back!
>Burden of proof logical fallacy.

>>511287
>mine
for fun or for profit?
You will not make money mining.

>how do i into bitcoin OP?
Well first I would learn the basics;
https://www.weusecoins.com/en/

>>511291
>"Bitcoin is a technological tour de force."

>""Every informed person needs to know about Bitcoin because it might be one of the world's most important developments."

>“Virgin Galactic is a bold entrepreneurial technology. It’s driving a revolution and Bitcoin is doing just the same when it comes to inventing a new currency.”

>“[Bitcoin] is a very exciting development, it might lead to a world currency. I think over the next decade it will grow to become one of the most important ways to pay for things and transfer assets.”

>“Bitcoin is a remarkable cryptographic achievement and the ability to create something that is not duplicable in the digital world has enormous value”

>“It will be everywhere and the world will have to readjust. World governments will have to readjust.”

>“Bitcoin may be the TCP/IP of money.”

>“I am very intrigued by Bitcoin. It has all the signs. Paradigm shift, hackers love it, yet it’s derided as a toy. Just like microcomputers.”

>“I do think Bitcoin is the first [encrypted money] that has the potential to do something like change the world.”

>“I really like Bitcoin. I own Bitcoins. It’s a store of value, a distributed ledger. It’s a great place to put assets, especially in places like Argentina with 40 percent inflation, where $1 today is worth 60 cents in a year, and a government’s currency does not hold value. It’s also a good investment vehicle if you have an appetite for risk. But it won’t be a currency until volatility slows down.”

>“It’s gold for nerds.”

>We have elected to put our money and faith in a mathematical framework that is free of politics and human error.”

>“There are 3 eras of currency: commodity based, politically based, and now, math based.”

>“This may be the purest form of democracy the world has ever known, and for one I am thrilled to be here to watch it unfold.”

>>511323
Woops

>“Bitcoin will do to banks what email did to the postal industry.”

>“The Bitcoin actually has the balance and incentives right and that is why it is starting to take off.”

>“Instant transactions, no waiting for checks to clear, no chargebacks (merchants will like this), no account freezes (look out Paypal), no international wire transfer fee, no fees of any kind, no minimum balance, no maximum balance, worldwide access, always open, no waiting for business hours to make transactions, no waiting for an account to be approved before transacting, open an account in a few seconds, as easy as email, no bank account needed, extremely poor people can use it, extremely wealthy people can use it, no printing press, no hyper-inflation, no debt limit votes, no bank bailouts, completely voluntary. This sounds like the best payment system in the world!”

>>511293
>>511296
>>511298
>>511301
>>511302
>>511306
>>511307
>>511308
>>511310
>>511312
>>511316
>>511319
>>511320
>>511324
>>511326
>>511331
>>511334

>Branson
>Dotcom
>McAfee
>Colbert
>Winklevii
>Assange
>some other random dudes

Wow Anon, great job. You sure convinced me with those hot arguments from false authority.

How about a banker or economist or investor, like Buffet? Oh wait, they all think it's stupid.

Keep in mind that almost all of the people you posted got absolutely rekt by the tech bubble because they were still harping on about "muh network effects" and not paying attention to fundamentals.

>>511359
>false authority.
Lol dismisses the biggest and most successful names in tech


Trace Mayer, J.D., a Leading Monetary Expert on Bitcoin and Gold >>511334

Patrick Young, Financial analyst
“The governments of the world have spent hundreds and hundreds of trillions of dollars bailing out a decaying, dickensian, outmoded system called banking, when the solution to the future of finance is peer-to-peer. It’s going to be alternative currencies like bitcoin and it’s not actually going to be a banking system as we had before 2008.”

Nassim Taleb, scholar and statistician
"“Bitcoin is the beginning of something great: a currency without a government, something necessary and imperative.”

Paco Ahlgren, Financial Analyst at Wi-Fi Alliance
“This may be the purest form of democracy the world has ever known, and for one I am thrilled to be here to watch it unfold.”

>Chris Dixon, Technology Investor
“There are 3 eras of currency: commodity based, politically based, and now, math based.”

>John Gray, Political Philosopher and Author of “False Dawn: the delusions of global capitalism”
“While the freedom Bitcoin promises is an illusion, it’s one that will always have a grip on the human mind – the dream of finding some kind of talisman, a benevolent tyrant or a magical new technology, that can shelter us from power and crime and protect us from each other.”

>Jim Rickards, American Lawyer, Economist and Investment Banker
“Gold is a great way to preserve wealth, but it is hard to move around. You do need some kind of alternative and Bitcoin fits the bill. I’m not surprised to see that happening.”

>Orlin Grabbe, Economist, Prolific Writer
“Cryptology represents the future of privacy [and] by implication [it] also represents the future of money, and the future of banking and finance.”

>>511359
>Buffet, no conflict of interest?

Warren Buffett: This new technology is a "real threat"
At the recent Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting, Warren Buffett admitted this emerging technology is threatening his biggest cash-cow. Buffett's fear can be your gain. Only a few investors are embracing this new market, which experts say will be worth over $2 trillion. Find out how you can cash in on this technology before the crowd catches on, by jumping onto one company that could get you the biggest piece of the action. Click here to access a free investor alert on the company we're calling the brains behind the technology.

>>511377
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/29/why-warren-buffett-is-right-for-bashing-bitcoin.aspx

>>511365
>Nassim Taleb
>in charge of making money

He writes books for a reason, Anon, and that reason is he's a shit investor.

>everbody else

Literally who?

>the biggest and most successful names in tech

I don't think I've ever questioned the technological strength of Bitcoin. The fallacy is assuming that technological innovation automatically means that easily duplicable software is worth trillions.

Tech investors are terrible at making money. The performance record for VC's is utter shit. I wouldn't trust them to manage my money and neither should you.

>>511383
>easily duplicable software
This is false, altcoins have been trying for years with limited 'success' if you could even call it that.

I was posting quotes of people who are capable of understanding the technology. Weather or not it is successful is another matter entirely, but they seem pretty sure and after all my reading on bitcoin I am pretty confident too. Make your own decisions anon, don't just listen to talking heads.

>>511377
>At the recent Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting, Warren Buffett admitted this emerging technology is threatening his biggest cash-cow. Buffett's fear can be your gain. Only a few investors are embracing this new market, which experts say will be worth over $2 trillion. Find out how you can cash in on this technology before the crowd catches on, by jumping onto one company that could get you the biggest piece of the action. Click here to access a free investor alert on the company we're calling the brains behind the technology.

Holy shit you're literally using those stupid fucking ads to shill for Bitcoin? What's next, "MINNEAPOLIS HOUSEWIFE FINDS LITTLE KNOWN OBAMA BILL TO REFINANCE YOU MORTGAGE?"

>>511398
>stupid fucking ads
>motley fool article
toplel anon, burden of proof logical fallacy.

I posted the relevent part but if you read the article it explains buffet is heavily invested in Credit cards and banks, gee I wonder why he would be negative on bitcoin....

>>511405
>1000 shills per minute [maximum overshill]
Seriously though, look at his reply count in this thread.

>>511407
oh no smiley man! what happened to your smiles?
>burden of proof logical fallacy.
Any facts to support the theroy that long threads are always shill threads or are you just pretending to e omnipotent?

>>511439
Are you the same guy that was on last night? I was arguing ITT last night with a guy with respect to Bitcoins deflationary properties and lack of fractional reserve banking. I consider these 2 properties to ultimately doom bitcoin (in the long run). Would you care to comment?

>>511444
same guy, I am OP
already commented with references to a MIT reasurch paper and comments from Russ Roberts, professor of economics at George Mason University.>>510824

You replied with "I think this is wrong" and your entitled to your opinion however experts have said its a non-issue.

As to fractional reserve banking I also replied saying this is not the only way to do lending. p2p lending could become big and banks won't disappear, they will just be more decentralized and local orientated. Will lending be reduced dramatically in this scenario? Yes, but not entirely.

I believe the elimination of systemic risk to the entire system, caused by fractional reserve banking and central planing, is the most important quality.

>>511204
LikeI said Bitcoin doesn't have a chance in hell of being that currency. Not even the slightest remote incredibly small chance of even approaching anywhere near to a real currency let alone the world reserve currency. The idea is so asinine and preposterous that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

>>511496
>Next Christmas the iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.

> – Sir Alan Sugar, 2005

>>511496
>“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”

->Thomas Watson (Chairman of IBM, 1943)

>>511496
>“Track record of old white men who don’t understand tech crapping on tech they don’t understand still at 100%."
-Marc Andreessen

>>511502
>>511505
>>511506
Do you have any original thoughts, or are you going to keep spouting off quotes from random people? This isn't facebook, bro.

>>511530
I have posted significantly more opinions and facts than your ad hominem logical fallacies.

but please keep bumping my thread :)

>>511535
Says the person who responded to me in quotes that had absolutely no relevance to anything I posted. Way to shirk your "burden of proof" that you think lies on everyone else but you.

>>511536
I have provided facts and expert opinions to back up my stance. You have not. You make unfounded claims without backing them up (burden of proof, logical fallacy) and you also attack posters directly (ad hominen, logical fallacy) so you see, I have provided my proof. Please provide yours and we can start to have a rational discussion on the topic.

>>511543
You have no idea what ad hominem is do you? When I call you a fucking retard it is merely an opinion of mine based on how little you know about economics or fiscal policy. Your "facts" are very few and far between and have been refuted many times in this thread. I am sorry if I come off slightly annoyed by your buttshillery and call you a dickhead because of it but that is the nature of anonymous imageboards.

The burden of proof lies on you to provide any clear reason in any realm of possibility that a government of this world that we live in would even give a minuscule entertainment of thought to making Bitcoin (which was borne out of the mind of and created by an American) the de facto global currency to replace all others. A currency owned mostly by neckbeards with gaming rigs. Are you fucking stupid?

i shouldve jumped on the train earlier

>>511555
>(which was borne out of the mind of and created by an American
You literally know nothing about bitcoin do you?

>Your "facts" are very few and far between
Just about every post I have made has facts.
Lets count
>>509939
>>509942
>>509999
>>510000
>>510004
>>510005
>>510029
>>510051
>>510065
>>510083
>>510086
>>510088
>>510149
>>510176
>>510184
>>510208
oh well you get the point more than 75% of my posts have facts that go undisputed.

Now lets take a look at yours
>>510042 (ad hominem)
>>510068 (burden of proof)
>>510093 (bandwagon)
>>510155 (ad hominem)
>>510169 (ad hominem)
>>510178 (ad hominem)
>>510338 (burden of proof)
Well that should be plenty to establish the pattern.

>The burden of proof lies on you to provide any clear reason
Bitcoin is the best form of money so it will replace inferior forms of money through a speculative attack.

Here is the paper that outlines the general theory of the attack.
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/

Here is another paper on bitcoin's perfect monetary policy.
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/the-bitcoin-central-banks-perfect-monetary-policy/

>>511557
>You can still ride it off the cliff

>>511575
Yay smiley your back to smiling!
>(burden of proof, logical fallacy)

>>511574
>(which was borne out of the mind of and created by an American
>You literally know nothing about bitcoin do you?
You do know that Satoshi Nakamoto was American.... right? All the core developers including Gavin Andresen are also American. Unless you are one of those dummies that thinks that Nakamoto was Japanese? Silly you. Do a little more research next time you propose to be a Bitcoin expert.

>Bitcoin is the best form of money so it will replace inferior forms of money through a speculative attack.
This is why it is going to be the de facto global currency? Because of your opinion that is is "the best form of money"? LMAO

Thats what I mean. All your supposed "facts" are just your opinion. You have given a few statistics about number of wallets and Bitcoin addresses, the amount of VC funding into Bitcoin startups, and a couple other statistics that frankly don't mean shit as far as to whether Bitcoin will succeed or not.

>>511588
>Satoshi Nakamoto was American
tell me more about how you discovered the creator of bitcoin.

No one knows who Satoshi is.

Yes Gavin is american but he was not the original author.

>Do a little more research next time you propose to be a Bitcoin expert.
Take some of your own advice.

>the best form of money
Bitcoin has better divisibility, fungibility, scarcity, durability, portability, and authentication than any other form of money. This isn't an opinion, see this chart.

>VC funding into Bitcoin startups does not equal success
No, and I have stated so, but it is a really good sign that it is on the right track.

>>511588
>You do know that Satoshi Nakamoto was American.... right?

Not just that! There's an extremely high probability that "Satoshi Nakamoto" is a group or individual associated with the NSA at that.

>cryptographic expert
>posts from Eastern time zone
>uses psuedonyms to conceal his identity
>seemingly random decision to use alternate cryptographic algorithm later revealed to be a dodge of a top-secret NSA backdoor

>http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1tddpj/10m_nsa_contract_with_security_firm_rsa_led_to/ce6t9ia

>>511591
>NSA
Dr John Nash worked for the NSA but left after they said his ideal money won't fly. Ideal money used something new called asymptotic money supply targeting. That later appeared in bitcoin.

Nash is renown for using aliases and is an expert in all fields Satoshi worked in to create bitcoin.

It paints a cool picture but no one can prove it.

>>511591

Also, it's amazing to watch Reddit twist themselves in knots to explain why Satoshi was a le ebin genius rather than using their superior atheistic minds to deduce that he knew TS/SCI info because he had access to it.

>>511590
>No one knows who Satoshi is.
>Stefan Thomas, a Swiss coder and active community member, graphed the time stamps for each of Nakamoto's bitcoin forum posts (more than 500); the resulting chart showed a steep decline to almost no posts between the hours of 5 am and 11 am Greenwich Mean Time. Because this pattern held true even on Saturdays and Sundays, it suggested that Nakamoto was asleep at this time.[8] If Nakamoto is a single individual with conventional sleeping habits, it suggests he resided in a region using the UTC−05:00 or UTC−06:00 time offset. This includes the parts of North America that fall within the Eastern Time Zone and Central Time Zone, as well as parts of Central America, the Caribbean and South America.

Nakamoto was American idiot. Which is why it was passed off to an American core development team.

Also that chart is flat out wrong and obviously created by Bitcoin shills. Transportation of fiat is not inconvenient. Most of fiat is sent digitally and secured with encryption (cryptographic) which is another area the chart is misinformed. Fiduciary media is actually a negative for Bitcoin. The record-keeping part in fiat cost is shouldered by banks and is not as expensive as the energy expended (and wasted) by bitcoin mining. Counterfeiting? You mean like the whole MtGox and double spend fiasco? Also the fact that fiat is centralized is also a plus for fiat because of reduction of volatility which makes Bitcoin terrible as a store of value.

I can expound on these but you put so little effort in just linking someone else's chart that it wouldn't be fair, now would it? Again, please have an original thought and not just regurgitate Bitcoin propaganda.

>>511591
That is a definite possibility.

>>511454
>As to fractional reserve banking I also replied saying this is not the only way to do lending. p2p lending could become big and banks won't disappear, they will just be more decentralized and local orientated

I'm really confused by this. I've been to the site you suggest, bitfinex? And I can't see how I'm meant to get a home loan. This may be a function of my inexperience with business and finance terminology, as I mentioned above, I have no investments or formal qualifications, I study this stuff as a hobby. The other point you made was that banks won't disappear, they will become more local. That's really the same as saying fractional reserve banking won't disappear at all; it just won't be big anymore. It doesn't matter if fractional reserve banking is big business or small business, there will still be a money multiplier effect if you have banks. I have been doing a ton of research since last night in this argument, and apparently ethereum has suggested a blockchain bond market that could possibly finance home loans; but the interest rates would be immense.

>You replied with "I think this is wrong" and your entitled to your opinion however experts have said its a non-issue.

This is true, I need to find a counterpoint source. These do exist, but unfortunately I have family commitments as well atm and can't go beating through all my sources. Just from a common sense viewpoint, I can't see how bitcoin sidesteps the deflationary spiral.

>>511608
pure speculation and more ad hominem, you just ca't have a rational discussion can you?

Time stamps prove nothing, they imply.

>Transportation of fiat is not inconvenient.
It is more inconvenient than bitcoin.

>Fiduciary media
Fraction reserve banking is unstable and the equivalent of counterfeiting. It also introduces systemic risk into the entire system.

>record-keeping part in fiat cost is shouldered by banks
and they are less efficient at it than bitcoin

> the energy expended (and wasted) by bitcoin mining
This energy secures the independence of the network and each individual transaction. This is not a waste because the utility of bitcoin far outweighs not having it at all. So not having bitcoin would be the waste.

>MtGox
A bitcoin service is not the bitcoin network. No coins were counterfeited, Mt.Gox was hacked not bitcoin.

>fiat is centralized is also a plus
No its a negative. More systemic risk infecting the whole system instead of distributing the risk. Central planing is rife with corruption and bad judgment but because they were the only game in town they get to just keep doing it.

>volatility which makes Bitcoin terrible as a store of value.
2010 1 bitcoin = $0.06
2014 1 bitcoin = $350
Yeah just terrible. /s

>>511637
>bitfinex
bitfinex does bitcoin lending for the purpose of trading only right now. Its in beta. The point I am making is that lending will still happen with bitcoin. Right now there is no market for home loans in BTC but when there is a service will e provided.

>fractional reserve banking won't disappear at all
It may not, however central planning monetary policy will. They made it illegal to do fractional reserve banking in bitcoin in america, but it is technically possible.

>ethereum has suggested a blockchain bond market that could possibly finance home loans; but the interest rates would be immense.
Correct and etherum is an altcoin, when the demand rises for these services bitcoin solutions will be devolved but we are too small to be building such things already. This is just a window into the possibilities.

>This is true, I need to find a counterpoint source. These do exist
They do, however most of the material was written regarding debt based economies and bitcoin is an asset based economy. So be sure to look out for that.

>>511652
>devolved
developed

Oops

>>511648
>ad hominem
pic related

>It is more inconvenient than bitcoin.
I really don't know anything that is more inconvenient than Bitcoin. The whole process of buying and selling BTC so that you can use them is long and arduous. With cash I don't need to prove my identity.

>fractional reserve banks
You mean like how MtGox acted as a fractional reserve bank when it traded Bitcoin it knew didn't exist?

>and they are less efficient at it than bitcoin
Proof? Lack of a transparent ledger is what makes cash appealing to me. I don't like all of my purchases recorded.

>This is not a waste because the utility of bitcoin far outweighs not having it at all
The energy and resources wasted on Bitcoin is horrific at best and the actual utility is overrated. I've explained why it is overrated this whole thread.

>Mt.Gox was hacked not bitcoin
Exactly. Bitcoin may be decentralized but the exchanges and services are not and are prone to fraud because of lack of oversight.

>More systemic risk infecting the whole system instead of distributing the risk
You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. I am saying centralization reduces volatility. Stick to the topic.

>2010 1 bitcoin = $0.06
>2014 1 bitcoin = $350
Dec 2013 1 BTC = $1100
Oct 2014 1 BTC = $350
You're right. Pretty fucking terrible.

>>509937
no can fucking predict this shit for you jesus christ

>>511689
>The whole process of buying and selling BTC
is instant and no more difficult than setting up an email with services like circle.

>You mean like how MtGox acted as a fractional reserve bank when it traded Bitcoin it knew didn't exist?
Exactly, only the customers on m.gox were using bitcoin IOUs (unknowingly) but this just highlights the need for the decentralized counter-party exchanges that are being developed so that exchanges dont have access to users coins. The service failed, it was a big event in bitcoin due to the centralization of the trading volume at the time. Yet bitcoin survived the debacle and the other exchanges started a best practice known as crypto-audits. This is a fine example of a bad actor failing and improving the system as a whole.

>Proof?
Bitcoin accounting is automatic due to the nature of being digital and costs the network nothing. Banks have overhead. Therefore bitcoin accounting is more efficient.

> Lack of a transparent ledger is what makes cash appealing to me. I don't like all of my purchases recorded.
Then you probably dont use debit or credit right?
Well bitcoin allows you to be as anonymous as you want. Once coins are transferred to a different wallet there is no way to connect it to an individual without user error and that is common in any system. Yes a little more common because bitcoin is new but bitcoin is driving new advancements in information security such as multi sig wallets.

>utility is overrated
unfounded opinion. Like I explained the benefits of bitcoin outweigh the network cost, otherwise people wouldn't be mining.

>>511689
>exchanges and services are not and are prone to fraud because of lack of oversight.
That's why this>>509939 is such a big deal.
Not that its necessary, the bitcoiners hae been hard at work improving the system and ensuring other exchanges have full deposits through independent and transparent audits of there ledgers. However all of this will be obsolete in a year once the new distributed exchanges using counter-party or colored coins or etherium gain traction.

>centralization reduces volatility
a the cost of introducing system wide crashes like the one we narrowly escaped from in 08. Systemic risk.

>ten month timeline
>long term
pic one.

>>511693
>Yet bitcoin survived the debacle and the other exchanges started a best practice known as crypto-audits.
Did Bitcoin really survive or are people just slowly beginning to see that a decentralized currency just does not work? MtGox just exposed major flaws in the system. Bitcoin value has been tanking ever since as more and more people lose confidence that it will ever go back up.

>Banks have overhead.
You mean that Bitcoin overhead makes the banks overhead look like pocket change right?

>Then you probably dont use debit or credit right?
I use debit and credit when I need to and I use cash and anonymous pre-paid debit cards when I don't want my purchases tracked. Bitcoin is not anonymous at all and just adds an extra unneeded step that is inconvenient as shit.

>otherwise people wouldn't be mining
People are mining because they want to make profit and try to sell the BTC for more than it costs to mine them. They are not humanitarians they are self-serving. This has nothing to do with if they feel there is a useful utility to Bitcoin.

>>511694
>That's why this>>509939 is such a big deal.
You add derivatives to Bitcoin and think that it will decrease market manipulation and frauds? LOL

Damn you really have no clue do you?

>>511701
>MtGox just exposed major flaws in the system.
The ecosystem yes, not the bitcoin system. And like I said this has inspired changes across every exchange to prove they have the customer funds they say they have. Like I said a bitcoin service is not the bitcoin network/system/code.

>You mean that Bitcoin overhead makes the banks overhead look like pocket change right?
No. Bitcoin has no overhead. The miners act as contractors and do so either for moral, political or economic reasons. This cost the bitcoin user nothing. Where banks charge fees up the ass bitcoin has none.

>Bitcoin is not anonymous at all
Bitcoin is as anonymous as the user wants it to be, other altcoins aim to do this better but bitcoin just takes the best ideas and provides a service for it. Like coin mixing.

>People are mining because...
Source? or is this another one of your unfounded conclusions because that is the only reason you see to mine? Plenty of miners operate a full bitcoin node at a loss purely because they hate banks.

>>511555
#REKT

>>511704
The derivatives are important for large business that need to mitigate risk but I was referring to your knock about regulation. As you can see that is a regulated exchange.

>>511712
I take it you haven't seen this yet >>511574

Feel free to jump into the discussion anon.

>>511711
ahahahah
Fuck you're retarded. Do you really expect anyone to believe that most miners are not trying to make a profit but doing it for moral or political reasons? Take you for example. You're here to "talk about Bitcoin" but you are really here because you gain if the price goes up so everything you post is biased. You are immune to any facts that show your precious investment in a bad light. You sound exactly like all the gold shills warning about doomsday when every rational person knows that if civilization goes to shit then gold will be worthless.

>>511359
>trusting your neighborhood friendly bankers :^)

I shiggy diggy

>>511731
Hey look your back to not posting any facts. Well the discussion was decent there for a little bit at least.

I said nothing of the sort about "most miners"

I said you have no idea what there motives are. You quote no source, you just pull shit out of your ass like the majority of the comments you posted in this thread. All rational individuals who make decisions using facts reading this thread know that you make unfounded claims, attack individuals more than the topic and generally use logical fallacies as if they are argument cheat codes. I won't go so far as to use the fallacy fallacy but it does imply a certain lack of intelligence that is on plain display for all to read.

See how you went from disputing 6-7 things down to 4 and then back to this ad hominen?

Yes I have an incentive to tell people about bitcoin as a bitcoin holder.

Yes this makes me biased, that is why I disclosed at the beginning that I hold bitcoin but it doesn't mean I am automatically wrong.

>Dell Becomes Bitcoin Mining Data Center Provider

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2014/10/10/dell-becomes-bitcoin-mining-data-center-provider/

>>511739
Are you going to say "ad hominem" every time I call you a dumbshit? Because I am probably going to do it a few more times in this thread.

>I said nothing of the sort about "most miners"
Yea but I did. It's the main reason why people mine. I can look up sources to back up my claims but I don't need to. It's just common sense that people in general don't spend money on "investments" if they don't think they will see a return on it.

>I said you have no idea what there motives at
Common sense, Dick. Something it looks like you are lacking.

>logical fallacies
I don't think you know what that word means either since you use them a lot. It's a little ironic that you keep bringing it up.

>See how you went from disputing 6-7 things down to 4 and then back to this ad hominen?
I am picking what I want to respond to since most of what you say is too stupid to even acknowledge.

>Yes this makes me biased
Exactly. Which means not trustworthy. All of your supposed "facts" are links to other peoples quotes or charts. You regurgitate propaganda like its a hobby. /r/ bitcoin has enough bullshit and I just take offense that you bring it here.

>>511746
If we wanted to read Bitcoin news we would go to another biased source like Coindesk. Obviously nobody here cares.

>>511751
>Yea but I did.
No you didn't. You said
>People are mining because

>ad hominem
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a form of criticism directed at something about the person one is criticizing, rather than something (potentially, at least) independent of that person. When used inappropriately, it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.

You rarely attack the idea,but you attack the poster consistently.

> is too stupid to even acknowledge.
burden of proof, more logical fallacy

>Which means not trustworthy.
That is why I quote sources, provide facts and argue my position consistently, something you don't seem to like to do . However you are quick to move the goal posts.

> I just take offense
Oh I am sorry did I offend you? Do you need a hug?

>>511754
>nobody here cares.
You seem to. I enjoy debate, I can see you don't by how angry you get and your lack of understanding what logical fallacies are but I don't want to convince you. I want to convince the others that happen by this thread to look into it for themselves. I want you to be so angry you will remember this thread forever. So when bitcoin is worth million's you can remember the anon who tried to help you.

>>511758
>>Yea but I did.
>No you didn't. You said
>People are mining because
Same shit retard. Nice semantics.

>You rarely attack the idea,but you attack the poster consistently.
Huh? I have attacked Bitcoin consistently all through this thread. Coincidentally I have attacked you too but that just means I think you're an idiot.

>burden of proof, more logical fallacy
We should make a drinking game where you have to take a shot every time you repeat the same thing over and not really understand the meaning of.

>That is why I quote sources
Your sources are all from people who are invested in Bitcoin. Not the most unbiased of resources huh?

>provide facts
I have refuted a lot of your "facts" that are opinions you tried to play off as facts. The actual statistics (real facts) that you showed had no relevance for Bitcoins sustaining power.

>argue my position consistently
Not very well I might add. You seem to repeat a lot of the same broken arguments over and over as if the merit of repetition will somehow make them true.

>Oh I am sorry did I offend you? Do you need a hug?
Yea your whole presence here offends me. You guys are the used car salesmen of the finance world yet you wonder why nobody likes you.

>>511761
tl; dr

>>511763
>talks about "real facts"
>provides none
Well it was nice chatting with you anon. but if your not going to read what I post then whats the point of even replying? oh well, some people just can't be helped.

>Viewing this should be mandatory
http://youtu.be/mII9NZ8MMVM

>>511771
I read what you posted I just refuse to read biased news articles you link to. Maybe next time you start one of these threads come up with some original arguments? That would be a good start to people taking you a little more seriously.

>This week in bitcoin

>>511754
I wish people didn't care here, I'm fucking sick of the number of threads on it here

>>511784
Me too. I'm glad this one reached the bump limit.

>CFTC’s Global Markets Advisory Committee on Bitcoin (10/9/2014)

https://soundcloud.com/user924251107/cftcs-global-markets-advisory-committee-on-bitcoin-1092014

>BEARWHALE

>Your capital controls have no power here
Venezuelans turn to bitcoins to bypass socialist currency controls

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/08/us-venezuela-bitcoin-idUSKCN0HX11O20141008?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews

>>511795
>You just gotta pump that dump

>>511754
>Obviously nobody here cares.
/biz/ was created because of cryptos, so there's that.

>>511795
>The slaying of bearwhale!
http://youtu.be/-uX_bB_4VJk

>Counterparty Founder, Robby Dermody, Hired by Overstock.com to Develop the Project Code-named Medici. Plans to Start Decentralizing Wall Street

http://www.wired.com/2014/10/overstock-com-assembles-coders-build-bitcoin-like-stock-market/

>Tim Draper Says Banks Are ‘Hugely Threatened’ By Bitcoin

Still, despite the technology’s promise, some bitcoin startups have expressed exasperation at the difficult banking situation they face. Draper said he understands why banks are behaving in this manner.

“It’s not in their best interest,” he said. “Banks make a ton of money on credit cards, on wire transfers. They are hugely threatened. So they don’t want to bank bitcoin. They are kind of trying to hold the line.”

However, Draper was adamant that banks will ultimately pay the price for their slow adoption of bitcoin, stating:

“If I were a bank, I’d buy a bunch of bitcoin. You have two choices: In effect have the train run just right into the wall, or you can change the wall. You go out and buy some bitcoin, you start banking bitcoin, and you start getting in front of it. You start creating new services with bitcoin. The banks who do are going to win.”

http://www.coindesk.com/tim-draper-says-banks-hugely-threatened-bitcoin/

>Now this is marketing

>>511807
Tim Draper? You mean the guy that won the silk road auction? Yea he has no incentive at all to spout bullshit! Wow you sure are gullible.

>Bitcoin after the Bubble

http://youtu.be/m7hfGExP6WY

>>511815
"while they still have value"
AHAHAHAHA
now isn't that some truth in marketing. dead fucking on.

>Bitcoin is better than currency
http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20141009/193861230/Bitcoin-Phenomenon-Scares-Governments-and-Banks-Creating-New.html

"Bitcoin is exciting because it shows how cheap it can be. Bitcoin is better than currency in that you don't have to be physically in the same place. And of course for large transactions currency can get pretty inconvenient," said Gates

>Why Bitcoin scares banks and governments
John Naughton is professor of the public understanding of technology at the Open University.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/apr/07/bitcoin-scares-banks-governments

>>511831
>Bitcoin is better than currency in that you don't have to be physically in the same place
It's 2014 and Bill Gates doesn't know that currency can be sent digitally? Yikes, that is a little embarrassing.

>>511833
>April 2013
A little out of date since recently we realize this isn't the case and banks are not threatened by Bitcoin at all especially after the Fed endorsement.

OP, you and your proxy's shitposting accounts for more than half of the posts in this thread.

Could you try making at least a token effort to shill less obviously next time?

>Bitcoin scares banks and governments
http://youtu.be/0rLN4ftgvtQ

>Bitcoin scares the banks and the government. This is why you should own some.

http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2013/08/bitcoin-scares-the-banks-and-the-government-this-is-why-you-should-own-some/

>economist David Andolfatto
"“The threat of entry into the money and payments system [...] forces traditional institutions to adapt or die.”"
http://www.coindesk.com/federal-bank-vp-bitcoin-threat-means-banks-must-adapt-die/

>>511879
http://www.businessinsider.com/interview-with-david-andolfatto-2014-4

CAPTCH:Longview

>>511866
Oh yeah, it's one of these usual forum control techniques. You use a sock account (using a proxy here) to make a poorly informed statement, then you destroy it with facts with your real account. To the uninformed, it makes it look like your side is right and your enemies are wrong.

>>511882
>What is bump limit
Create another thread so I can own you more. This ones already going to the back of the pile.

>Bitcoin could pose threat to financial stability of UK, warns Bank of England
"Bitcoin could pose a threat to financial stability in the UK should the digital currency's popularity take off, according to a series of reports by the Bank of England."

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/11/bitcoin-threat-financial-stability-uk-bank-of-england

>Why Bitcoin is the banking industry’s newest, biggest threat
"Economist Simon Johnson says governments will feel the urge to suppress the crypto-currency Bitcoin."

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/why-bitcoin-is-the-banking-industrys-newest-biggest-threat/

>Bitcoin Really Is an Existential Threat to the Modern Liberal State

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-04-05/bitcoin-really-is-an-existential-threat-to-the-modern-liberal-state

haha... liberals...

>Virtual money such as bitcoin poses threats - Central Bank

Central Bank official addresses first ever gathering of virtual and conventional finance

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/virtual-money-such-as-bitcoin-poses-threats-central-bank-1.1854673

>The European Central Bank (ECB) recently issued a report on digital currencies.

"In an extreme case, virtual currencies could have a substitution effect on central bank money if they become widely accepted."
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf

>Bank Of Canada: Bitcoin Could Threaten Global Financial Stability

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/13/bitcoin-financial-stability-bank-of-canada_n_5318215.html

>>511900
what's the point of this? I can spam anti Bitcoin articles all day

>>511884

Yeah, but he's using a proxy to continue the argument and make it seem like there are multiple people arguing for BTC instead of one shill. 2e71... and 46if... both have very similar posting strategies but never actually post at the same time and perfectly divide the thread in two. See pic related, it's just fucking amateurish.

>What bitcoin myths did we cover

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths


>4 Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything

>6 Bitcoins have no intrinsic value (unlike some other things)

>12 Early adopters are unfairly rewarded

>16 It's a giant ponzi scheme

>22 Fractional reserve banking is not possible

>27 Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy and harmful for ecology

>33 Bitcoin was hacked

Wow, only seven? Times sure are changing.\
Well till next time /biz/
Thanks for the discussion

>>511910
Oh hey dipshit, try reading the thread, I claimed both IDs, different computers.

>>510332
>P.S. claiming OP ID

>>511910
I've been arguing with him half the thread, and he has never denied being the poster behind both ID's.

>>511444
>>511454

>>511917
But 12 and 27 are not myths!

>>512161
>12 Early adopters are unfairly rewarded
Early adopters are rewarded for taking the higher risk with their time and money. The capital invested in bitcoin at each stage of its life invigorated the community and helped the currency to reach subsequent milestones. Arguing that early adopters do not deserve to profit from this is akin to saying that early investors in a company, or people who buy stock at a company IPO (Initial Public Offering), are unfairly rewarded.

This argument also depends on bitcoin early adopters using bitcoins to store rather than transfer value. The daily trade on the exchanges (as of Jan 2012) indicates that smaller transactions are becoming the norm, indicating trade rather than investment. In more pragmatic terms, "fairness" is an arbitrary concept that is improbable to be agreed upon by a large population. Establishing "fairness" is no goal of Bitcoin, as this would be impossible.

Looking forwards, considering the amount of publicity bitcoin received as of April 2013, there can be no reasonable grounds for complaint for people who did not invest at that time, and then see the value (possibly) rising drastically higher.

By starting to mine or acquire bitcoins today, you too can become an early adopter.

>>512161
>27 Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy and harmful for ecology
No more so than the wastefulness of mining gold out of the ground, melting it down and shaping it into bars, and then putting it back underground again. Not to mention the building of big fancy buildings, the waste of energy printing and minting all the various fiat currencies, the transportation thereof in armored cars by no less than two security guards for each who could probably be doing something more productive, etc.

As far as mediums of exchange go, Bitcoin is actually quite economical of resources, compared to others.

>>512362
>for taking the higher risk
And that's the problem: early adopters take LESS risk than anyone else yet still have greater return than anyone else.

>>512365
Tu quoque fallacy.

>>512431
>early adopters take LESS risk than anyone else yet still have greater return than anyone else.
No economist, investor or banker has ever uttered these words so I am not sure where you got them.

>27 Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy and harmful for ecology
The utility of the exchanges made possible by Bitcoin far exceed the cost of electricity used. Therefore, not having Bitcoin would be the net waste. If this wasn't true, people wouldn't be mining for the bitcoin network. Bitcoin uses less electricity than the current system for financial transactions and as hardware improves efficiency the cost become negligible compared to the use value gained.

>>512446
Welp, looks like I don't even need to respond. You're making my case for myself.

>>512521
>is refuted
>takes it as confirmation
do you even reading comprehension?

>Who hear likes JPM and Jamie Dimon?

Bitcoin developers “are going to try and eat our lunch,” Jamie Dimon, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase said, as reported by Institutional Investor. “And that’s fine. That’s called competition, and we’ll be competing.”

http://www.tonewsto.com/2014/10/jp-morgans-jamie-dimon-bitcoin-will-try.html

>>512541
If you feel good about attacking strawmen of strawmen all day, more power to you I suppose.

>>512604
>strawmen of strawmen
did you just cal yourself a strawman?

>enter /biz/ for the first time
>enter inocent bitcoin thread
>half of /biz/ ride crypto shill cock
>half of /biz/ are witless fucks that can't take a risk
>85% of posts quote and insult someone
>35% of text is greentext
>ad hominem written everywhere
>ponzi everywhere
>burden of proof everywhere

Jesus Christ guise. Jesus Christ.

>>512685
it had to be done.