/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>50240731
Does the most powerful empire that’s ever existed mean anything to you? The dollar is backed by laws and the threat of state sanctioned violence.

>>50240731
Army

>>50240731
Finance and economics are pseudoscientific make believe garbage, capitalism is inherently unstable, exploitative and unsustainable with a built in expiration date. All finance assets like money,crypto,debt,bonds etc are purely parasitic in nature and serve no purpose nor have any inherent value and private property is theft. Ever escalating recessions, poverty, disease, pollution, slavery and wars are fundamental and necessary functions of it and every single financier or crypto dudebro is a literal parasite.

>>50240754
You think we make transition from Republic to Empire now?

>>50240754
This

>>50240731
ok educate me please. why does a currency have to be "backed" by something? why can't it just exist on its own? before you mention gold, how is pegging paper money to a rock help anything? what backs gold? none of this makes sense to me

>>50240754
So you admit that capitalism can only exist if a state exists that holds a monopoly on violence and enforces and maintains property relations and private property via cops and soldiers and the threats of imprisonment, punishment and indirect execution via starvation or exposure?

>>50240754
>>50240807
yep that sounds bullish for the death of the dollar to me by people who want to not be enslaved

>>50240754
fake and gay. the most powerful empire backed by paper, what could possible go wrong? kek

>>50240802
If money isn't backed by anything, it's just a piece of paper. Gold is inherently valuable because it's scarce, useful and highly sought after.

>>50240802
Finance and economics are pseudoscientific make believe garbage, capitalism is inherently unstable, exploitative and unsustainable with a built in expiration date. All finance assets like money,crypto,debt,bonds etc are purely parasitic in nature and serve no purpose nor have any inherent value and private property is theft. Ever escalating recessions, poverty, disease, pollution, slavery and wars are fundamental and necessary functions of it and every single financier or crypto dudebro is a literal parasite.

You are so close just leave 4chan and spread your wings

>>50240807
I’m not sure. I think capitalism could maybe exist without a state, I’m not sure if that would be more like anarchy or libertarianism, but there would probably need to be some sort of universal currency that isn’t controlled by any state.

>>50240828
You’re moving the goal posts.
Original claim was “absolutely nothing”. Even if you think the situation is completely corrupt and should be changed, it obviously isn’t backed by absolutely nothing.

>>50240826
You do realize you are like the last ones to the party right? People have been enslaved by the western empires for centuries. You are the only ones sheltered enough and ignorant to these facts simply because you happened to live in the imperial core. Your empire has already died cant you see? You dont have another cycle. Bullish for the dollar? Are you braindead or smthing?

Or like am i misunderstanding? I am not a financier nor participate in the stock market to understand you terminologies is that not ehat you meant?

>>50240855
Well you would be ignorant if you think that but baby steps i guess

>>50240845
>private property is theft.
explain this please. theft from whom? who is doing the stealing?

>>50240807
Explain to me how a communist or socialist state could exist without doing those same things. And miss me with the “real communism hasn’t been tried yet” bull.

>>50240924
I'm Greek. You can shove "my empire will never die" in your ass. All Empires die.

the US dollar is run by the Proof of War algorithm

>>50240830
If a US dollar is only a piece of paper, why can I exchange it for goods and services across the entire globe, unlike this other paper I have here next to me?

>>50240731
Go ask Ghadafi what was backing up the US dollar, I'll wait.

>>50241031
Literally just because you and people around you trust that there's value behind that piece of paper. That's it. Almost like a blind faith.

>>50240970
How tf do you conceptualize theft in a world where nobody owns anything though lol. What a fucking retarded ideology that consistently fails in practice.

>>50240970
Imagine a river. A river belongs to all the creatures. Many creatures stop by and refresh themselves. Now imagine a violent ape decided that only he can use the river. From now on he will own the river. Anyone who approaches is threatening his private property and tresspassing. Now those who seek water must go to another river or comply with ANY demands from the "owner" regardless how irrational or exploitative simply because they literally have NO other choice and NEED to drink water. Would you not agree that the river was stolen from its rightful owners? (Thirsty creatures?)

the US dollar is backed by the threat of war or sanction (if you carry nukes then we'll sanction you lol) just look what we did to north korea and recently russia lol

>>50241077
I’m not claiming the dollar bill has an inherent value. Read my other posts in this thread.

>>50240993
Μάθε να διαβάζεις ναζίδιο. Το ακριβώς αντίθετο είπα χρυσαυγητάκι

>>50240977
Doing what things? Private property needs to be actively enforced. If you abolish private property, goods, land and the means of production would simply return to their rightful owners (the people and those who use them and need them) and life would simply continue sustainably and peacefully. Even if assume "cops" exist in communism they would not be enforcing property relations and rather maybe just handle everyday disputes and do social work or smthing

>>50241115
who says the animals "own" the river? they use it, but do they "own" it?

>>50241168
Dude you were just posting about an ape taking violent control of a river. How can you be so naive as to believe people will not fight over resources in a communist system? Who will be guaranteeing that things go back to their “rightful owners”. How could that be enforced without the use or threat of violence?

>>50241177
Yes. Personal property. If you are using something or you need something you own it. For example: a house only has value if a person or creature is living in it. That is its purpose. Its owner is a creature in need of shelter. Its owner must be using it. Otherwise you end up with situtations like private property where the commodity stops being linked to its use value and instead becomes a speculative asset that can be hoarded. An apple under capitalism is not meant to be eaten. It is meant to be sold. The "food" or "shelter" aspect of an apple or a house respectively becomes secondary

>>50241215
? Life has been doing it for billions of years. Capitalism is barely 1000 years old and has brought about a massive extinction event that is still ongoing and only escalates.

The burden of proof lies upon you to argue how and why creatures would turn violent and competitive if we eradicate all incentives to act, think and live that way. What incentive does a creature whose needs are met have to turn violent and ever more griedier, antisocial and insecure?

>>50240731
>absolutely nothing backing the US Dollar
THIS is backing the US dollar.

>>50241293
no
the burden is on you to show that we could possibly ever get rid of all the incentives to act, think, and live free from violence or competition
you have an idealized image of human nature in your mind that just doesn't match reality

>>50241297
that picture must be from like 2003. now the military is full of 5'1 mexican women and black trannies

But wouldn't people still fight over "personal property" - I mean I might not be using that farm land now, but might want to get rid of whoever is on it so my children can have their own personal land to grow their own food.

Thinking there is any sort of distinction between "personal" and "private" property is just silly.

Tying a currency to a rock is like putting training wheels on a motorbike. Sure it'll keep you from falling over if you stop moving, but it doesn't help you move at all, and becomes a major hinderance when you actually want to drive the bike at useful speeds.
If we went back to requiring global banks to be partially backed by gold (there isn't enough gold in the world to 100% back anything) the economy would collapse, dozens of nations would fall and there would be no growth for decades, if ever

>>50241349
I dont need to prove anything because capitalism has already been studied and the practices, behaviors and outcomes of capital have been observed too not only studied.

But we didnt even need to do the experiment. Capitalism can easily be proven even on paper to be unstable, unsustainable, exploitative, wasteful and pathogenic

The burden of proof lies upon you to argue how and why any alternative system is more harmful than the current one. Because the way i view it capitalism literally copies the functions of a cancer cell and maximizes suffering and torture. It offers neither a clean life nor a clean death

>>50241502
appeal to authority

>>50240731
It's backed by the legal requirement that anyone engaging in economic activity in the US must pay taxes denominated in USD.

>>50241521
K dude

>>50240855
>I think capitalism could maybe exist without a state, I’m not sure
Pro-tip: it couldn't.

>>50240884
backed by paper aka debt is actually less than nothing by definition

>>50240775
this poster is attention starved and mentally ill just ignore it

>>50241543
you responded like that because you know I'm right
you waved your hands and said that the experts have already figured it out
I call bull

>>50240754
>state sanctioned violence
the worst kind of violence if you ask me

>>50240970
There are at least two notions of "Theft":

1) violent deprivation of a person from using a resource
2) a use of resources that violates a State-imposed allocation of property rights

The very principle of (2) violates (1).

>>50241563
I simply dont care. We dont have any more plays. Right now we just have to wait. There is no need for a revolution. Even buissness as usual is revolution enough because the inherent contradictions of capitalism will reach a boiling point and simply collapse like it always does. Difference is this time if we dont actually diverge from the status quo when collapse happens then we simply die either from nuclear holocaust or simply because the planet will become uninhabitable.

So you are free to continue spamming your tired red scare boomer propaganda and believe whatever the fuck you want. The stock market will be destroyed one way or another

united states notes were redeemable for PMs

>>50241563
And you're an idiot trying to reason with an ideologue. From his first mention of capitalism you should have gotten a clue as to why that person lacks understanding of basic things like the human need to acquire resources among others. Fuck it I'm pissed now. Anons on this board claim that time is the most valuable asset yet you niggas waste your most valuable asset shitting on people who want to have a genuine conversation and effortpost to commies or other statist scum. With all due respect fuck you.

>>50240731
the dollar is backed by the US navy. throughout history, nations with the top navies have enjoyed reserve status.

>>50241551
Nothing could exist without a state, except maybe hunter-gatherer bands. Kinda hard to build a society with no norms and ability to enforce those norms

>>50241705
You're making my point for me.

>>50241677
who the fuck are you and why are you on biz
are you even aware of the asset we've been obsessed with for five years?

>>50241691
I'm posting till five o clock you stupid nigger
you're wasting your own time
I'm wasting mr shecklebergs

>>50241738
Asset? You mean crypto? Lmaooo

>>50241756
No, you're wasting your time exponentially by having to work and avoid it by trying to talk sense to a toddler

>>50241776
hfsp
>>50241822
I have no more work to do and I'm literally sitting in my bedroom shit posting and watching my inbox for five more minutes

>>50240807
I would argue any state can only exist due to violence, yes

>>50241031
Because you were taught in elementary school that this was how money worked, just like everybody else. Even though it's barely been over 50 years that it worked that way.

Companies and individuals have to pay taxes in US dollars
Companies in the US and around the world have debt in US dollars.

>>50241168
>If you abolish private property, goods, land and the means of production would simply return to their rightful owners (the people and those who use them and need them)
I agree with the spirit of this post (all your posts ITT actually). I think the word "own" is too blunt a concept. The expression "X owns Y" implies that X has certain rights with respect to Y within a given community. We need to be more granular about what specific rights are bundled within the 'ownership' relation, and whether only some of them are worthy of being granted to anyone. Even Usufruct is too vague, imo. No one should have full ownership rights to natural resources (on the one hand) or ideas (on the other). Buy yes, the fruits of applying ideas to natural resources should belong to the actual applicators.

>>50240731
the peoples

Violence backs the USD.

>>50241691
While I would agree that arguing with ideologues (like that idiot commie) is unlikely to change their mind, it can be useful for letting any naive lurkers know that just because someone keeps posting something, does not mean it is true, helping to prevent said ideologue from getting converts to his cause.

>>50240731

yeah its a worse shitcoin than shiba inu musk

>>50241841
Getting off to gay porn would be a less homosexual activity than arguing with a retard and a home. Anyways I just wanted to vent because I got tired of getting into shit flinging arguments when I'm trying to stay on topic and when a commie appears niggas here try to educate them. Fuck me dead already

>>50240731
It's backed by ignorance and stupidity

And the vaxxies won't be around much longer to provide that KEK

>>50241691
>that person lacks understanding of basic things like the human need to acquire resources among others
I'd call you an ideologue if you weren't so demonstrably a fucking retard.

>>50242028
>when a commie appears
Check the front page, asshat. You're posting on a full-commie board.

>>50240787
We already did in the 40s. Britain passed the baton during ww2 and we more or less took over their holdings as well as France.

>>50241691
>accuses someone of being an ideologue
>"once you found out what someone believes you should instantly dismiss everything they say"
Your only response will be to double down, use adhom and possibly accuse me of being a commie too

fpbp

>>50241677
Lol the planet isn't gonna become uninhabitable you retarded teenager. The climate is gonna change a lot, but that just means the habitable zones will change.

>>50242374
You're not a commie but you're fucking retarded if you think ideologue means "person who has beliefs"

Yes, there is definitely something backing the dollar. It is called government coercion. We are forced at gunpoint to use dollars to pay for taxes, fines, fees, and licenses. Anyone refusing goes to jail. Anyone resisting dies.

But only banks create new dollars, not government. Banks create all money digitally when they issue loans. The entire money supply is created by bank lending, which is why almost everyone is buried in debt.

bank LIES dot ORG

Banks create all dollars, not government. But government forces is at gunpoint to use bank-created dollars.

>>50242640
I'm actually impressed that your read on my post and your response could be this dumb. Obviously I'm referring to the part of your post that says "disregard everything he says because he uses the word capitalism". Only an ideologue would wholesale dismiss everything someone says because of something else they said.

Government forces us to use bank created dollars. We are literally forced at gunpoint to go into debt with private bankers.

>>50241033
Gadaffi was killed though

>>50240754
Russia is being sanctioned over and over again by the western countries, but they are still managing to destroy the world's economy by keeping Ukraine as a failed state.

We all know that the US wanted this war, yet I reckon they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Look at Saudi Arabia making contracts in Yen with China. USD is losing its grip. Counties are detaching from this currency.

>>50242980
For what and by whom?

>>50240807
yes, what kind of retarded question is this. All social structure and it's stability is founded on the threat of violence alone, and it has always been this way. We're fucking monkeys you stupid fucking nigger

>>50240830
I believe all goldbugs are mentally challenged middle aged white collar wagies

>>50240731
>US gubmint
>hundreds of millions of people earning their livelihood in USD
ok

>>50241168
And how do you "abolish" private property without using the powers of the mega state? Commies are so retarded, they drowned entire 20th century in blood, yet they still trying to do the same shit

>>50241388
this

>>50240802
so bankman jews can't inflate it and steal value from you, you can't print gold

>>50241297
a bunch of fat fags? wrong pic?

>>50240775
You are just a moron, why then do you involve in all of the pseudoscientific garbage? I do all of them especially crypto but I connect my wallet to a privacy platform that gives anonymity to my transactions and cannot be scanned even if placed on etherscan or bscscan

>>50240754
correct answer

>>50240754
>Does the most powerful empire that’s ever existed mean anything to you? The dollar is backed by laws and the threat of state sanctioned violence.
*topples your empire*

>>50240731
It's debt. The most powerful asset of all.

USD hasn't been backed by anything other than what the govt says since the 1970s. In other words; govt can print all the money it wants and give each person with a bank account 1 million if it wanted to. Hell anymore it's all digital. A computer does all the work. Some FED computer says: "Hey let's dump 50 trillion into Bank A,Z, and G". Soon enough each bank has 50 trillion extra dollars sitting. If the govt says you've got the cash then who's gonna question it? Just like all that money going to Ukraine. Congress won't spend it for the American people but when it comes to sending it elsewhere? It's oh hey no problem.

>>50240731
Debt

>>50240754
All human history has taught us that Empires fall when their money does. Every Fiat money that was ever made cause that fall of empire. When they move from real money like gold to paper notes and create so much debt.

>>50246689
You have not disproven that my claim regarding what the dollar is currently backed by. Why are people still responding to this thread?

>>50244737
>>50246236
correct
>>50246726
because you're wrong, as you will soon discover.

>>50240731
SAY THAT TO GADAFI

>>50246774
if you're claiming that the dollar may soon fail, that's great, but i'm still right because i didn't make any claims about the future of the dollar, just about what it's currently backed by

>>50246832
and if you're trying to say that i'm wrong and that the answer is actually debt then tell me why people feel compelled to pay back their debt, couldn't be the threat of state sanctioned violence, right???

>>50240731
>he’d rather kill other people for food and shelter

Why are liberal anarchists like this?

>>50240754
laws and state sanctioned violence dont create money. debt creates money, which means the more debt we have the stronger our dollar is but that will only sustain for so long, it's a system designed to fail.

>>50246903
i think we're splitting hairs but you've switched the question to what creates money, not what backs the us dollar

>>50246726
Money is backed by trust. Not threats of violence.

>>50246945
until the trust is betrayed maybe

>>50241168
Based and redpilled anon…
Fuck private property fags and boomers and the govt.
To that extant though i think there can be a utopian happy medium and if you are also thinking muh communism is perfect that is even worse lol what we need is unironically a great reset. Non whites need to go back to living in huts and not using “white inventions” like vehicles, electricity etc. you ever wonder shy third world places are third world? Because they are adopting a white economic model and placing on there own culture and society, its incompatible and always will be thats why they judt litter everywhere and swim in literal shit rivers. I could go on but yea we need small homogenous villages, the next best thing though is 1938 Germany. Its not a one size fits all especially for other races

>>50243813
Remove the ability for government to have the monopoly and violence and property will have little value except by how well you could hold it against people who want to take it

Right now the government can take any property as they please because of said monopoly of violence

>>50240731
Taxes back the dollar.

American citizens are forced to pay their taxes in dollars. Just try sending gold, bitcoin, or spools of silk to the IRS. They won't accept it. Even if you do all of your commerce in barter, you're still supposed to estimate the market value of the goods/services you trade directly for goods/services; and pay taxes on that with USD. There is a demand for dollars, because people don't want to be punished for not paying their taxes.

>>50240731
Your problem is simple. You are trying to see value in dollar physically.

But you can't understand dollar if you don't understand the conception of money in the first place.

So, what is money?

Money is the representation of power.

If you want a cloth and you have enough money, you can, you have the power* to buy it.
If you want a car and you have enough money, you can, you have the power* to buy it.
If you want a house and you have enough money, you can, you have the power* to buy it.

A travel...
A whore...
Almost anything, if you have money, if you have power*, you can have it.

Money itself is just a piece of paper. But what it represents is what counts.

Now back to dollar.
Dollar, is printed by the most powerful* nation right now. And that nation, whatever you like it or not, is still the USA.

So, that is why the currency (paper or whatever) that represent a piece of the power of the most powerful nation of the world, is more valuable than the others.

Power Conquest.
Power Corrupts.
Power Wins.

It's all about power. It's always gonna be.

>>50247445
>Dollar is backed by people paying in the dollar

Nice circular logic you nitwit

>>50242975
Good post. Thanks anon

its over

>>50240845
>company needs capital
>individuals offer capital in exchange for a share in the company
>this share in the company can be traded
>wtf parasites

the usd dollar, for all intensive purposes, is backed by wal-mart. economies 101.

>>50240754
>>the most powerful empire that’s ever existed
C'mon man, the US is plagued with a lot of serious social issues. Some of which will never be fixed. All at the cost of the every day man. The US used to be all about bringing the every day man into the middle class and living a better life. What happened? (Please don't say Jews)

>>50240731
A currency is backed by what you stuff you can buy with it.
It’s literally a that simple.
The Roman currency was originally used so soldiers could buy land, food, whores, and other goodies the Roman’s had available.
If that currency didn’t give them access to shit, or another empires coin gave them access to better land or better whores, their legions wouldn’t have been so successful.

Trying to rationalize a currency’s usefulness or lack of usefulness off of anything other than this is a midwit trap.
>Oh gold!
Gold was one item that was guaranteed for exchange at one particular rate, but the power of the dollar’s access to everything else other than gold was strong enough that it didn’t matter.
And if you wanted gold, the dollar was still the ticket to access it at the end of the day.

>Oh Bitcoin!
What can you buy with Bitcoin?
>Inb4 a bunch of white glove prop examples, like shitty real estate sold in Bitcoin for a PR stunt or something.
Please my crypto niggas, show me the GOOD shit that you can access with buttcoin.
That you cannot access with ANY other currency.
Take your time.

With the dollar you can buy airplanes, mercenaries, politicians, and nukes and shit.
Wtf is bitcoin’s power level supposed to be compared to that.

>>50240731
you are an idiot
it is backed by the largest military union (NATO) in the globe

>>50240754
>Does the most powerful empire that’s ever existed mean anything to you?
Lmao. The Roman Empire lasted longer than yours will. You're being taken down from the inside by Jews, Blacks and Communists.

>>50249763
Why would I purchase shit with hard money when there is near unlimited fiat you can get for free and have the government inflate away the debts for you? Hard money is there for when the music stops, not when it's going. Why do you think banks hoard gold instead of spending it?

>>50240731
Trust im Biden

>>50249883
This is wrong. The dollar backs the military not the other way around. When the dollar collapses, just like every single fiat currency has before it, so will the military and the empire of that country.

Friendly reminder than socialist will never be able to solve the economic calculation problem

>>50240802
scarcity
and bitcoin wins

>>50240802
>>50250322
no bread for you