/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>49812940
>It is by definition, academically, a ponzi scheme
Stopped reading

I think it can function as digital gold. That's why BTC is the only token that makes sense. All of them are completely useless so any token that promises functionality is a scam but BTC can work because of it's brand.

>>49812975
Bitcoin is by definition, academically, a ponzi scheme.

>>49812977
- Unlike gold, bitcoin does not have any beauty or other value rooted in human psychology.
- Unlike ammo, bitcoin does not have any utility, especially off the grid.
- Bitcoin does not hold its value very well; when it's not deflating, it's outright crashing.
- Bitcoin fails in its key tenets, such as being decentralized.

>>49813017
You have never even looked up the definition of a ponzi scheme lmao

>>49813109
If value growth doesn't come solely from influx of new retards, then explain to me one singular alternate reason for its value to grow.

>>49813198
That’s not what a ponzi scheme is. With your stupid NPC normie plebbitard definition just about every investment is a ponzi scheme.

>>49813109
yes, it's more of a greater fool type of deal

>>49812940
>Give me ONE reason bitcoin should go up
because i need the money bozo kankermongool

>>49813247
Yeah, for companies who don't pay out dividends, their stock is also, by definition, a ponzi scheme. I also said there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with ponzi schemes, so why are you being so sensitive about the bitcoin ponzi scheme? It's a pretty good one, I must admit. It's the first decentralized ponzi scheme ever (or at least, it was back when it wasn't effectively centralized in a handful of key exchanges)

>>49813109
have you?

a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a non-existent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

>>49813337
ponzi schemes turn out to be quite profitable if you get in early (a la bitcoin)

Also curious why coiners are so sensitive to their investment being referred to as a ponzi

>>49812940
Bitcoin whales are playing price goes up game. They enjoy pumping bitcoin because it's a fun game for them. They are rich and powerful, their bitcoin price goes up game isn't finish yet.

This is why bitcoin must go up. Rich elites are playing a fun game called bitcoin goes up game.

>>49813337
You fucking retard, payouts are literally a requirement for it to classify as a ponzi scheme. These words hve meanings you dumb fuck, ponzi scheme means a financial scam that is constructed like the scam a man named Ponzi was running. It is similair to a pyramid scheme but not quite the same.

The basic construction is that you have an investment that yields payouts to investors, but those payouts originate from new investors. You just take the payments from new recruits and give them to the previous investors. And it keeps on going until the rate of new investors recruited can not keep up with the investor payouts.

Ponzi schemes are extremely illegal btw, except when the government runs it. For example the retirement programs in almost every state function like a ponzi scheme.

>>49813365
Fucking retard

>>49813400
I think it's their ego. They want to believe they're some kind of genius investing in a revolutionary new technology called blockchain. Sadly, all the utilities and decentralization of blockchain have completely fallen by the wayside. As time went on, it became more and more just a regular old ponzi scheme, and the vast majority of its participants don't give a fuck about blockchain; they're just waiting for bigger retards to come take the bag.

>>49813462
The point of similarity bitcoin has with a ponzi is any money coming out comes from money previously invested. There is no value generated anywhere in between. You're being wilfully obtuse if you don't see this

>>49813462
Take it easy. You know, there's no shame in getting sucked into a ponzi scheme as long as you get out with a profit. You did manage to profit from the bitcoin ponzi scheme, didn't you? Or did you get burned and that's why you're so sensitive?

>>49813541
Literally every fucking investment looks similar to a pyramid scheme or a ponzi scheme if you look hard enough you fucking underage newfag plebbitor cancer

>>49813569
NPC redditor cancer

>>49813603
You got burned, got it. Sorry to hear that, fren. What's your cost basis? 25k? 30? There could still be hope. Try to get out if you get the chance.

>>49813577
Man, you're SUPER mad.
You're dodging the point though - there's no value generated by bitcoin. The only money that comes out comes from money that was previously invested. If I buy a house for $100 000 and sell it for $200 000 the extra money comes from the savings of the buyer not previous house purchases

>>49813623
Haha so ure a literal npc nocoiner without the creative spark, from plebbit, glad we got that sorted out

>>49813658
>get's called out about value of bitcoin
>throws tantrum
ok nothing more to see here

>>49813653
You’re a subhuman NPC who refuses to be corrected because you’ve got a massively inflated ego.

I’m not dodging shit, faggot. BTC is an utter shitcoin and has been since about 2014 when it was intentionally crippled to destroy its use as a currency.

> If I buy a house for $100 000 and sell it for $200 000 the extra money comes from the savings of the buyer not previous house purchases
Hahahaha thanks for once again showing that you know absolutely nothing about finance.

>measured in USD
stopped reading

bitcoin goes up because digital currencies, especially decentralized ones aren't going away
and as long as digital currencies of any kind exist, the one that can't be recreated (the first) will always be highly valuable, or the chances of any decentralized ones existing (any altcoin past, present or future) are next to zero.

>>49813678
Subhuman NPC cockroach, I have not posted a single sentence in defence of bitcoin

>>49813736
You're right, you just argued about the definition of a ponzi scheme pointlessly for about 20 minutes.

>>49813724
>bitcoin goes up
Up in USD. Let's be clear about that.
>because it's not going away
And what's valuable about that? Dirt isn't going away, but no one expects dirt to grow infinitely in value.

>>49813780
if you're arguing that digital currencies will completely disappear to be replaced by government controlled fiat currencies issued in some user accessible SWIFT like system, then you're arguing for the one and only condition where bitcoin fades into obscurity, worthlessness, or irrelevance.

if you think that's likely, great. doesn't change the fact that you've already missed out on the one chance in your life you had to make serious wealth in bitcoin or altcoins, but sure, you may be proven right some time in the future.

the point is no matter what your argument is, you've already lost, because bitcoin is here, today, highly valued, and has already made people very wealthy. arguing about why it might not exist in the future is cute but ultimately pointless.

>>49813816
>if you're arguing that digital currencies will completely disappear
I'm not arguing that at all. I never said anything about bitcoin or any other digital currency disappearing. Ponzi schemes can stick around for a very very long time. I'm merely asking why it's not a ponzi scheme. In order for it not to be a ponzi scheme, the tokens need to have some kind of logical reason to appreciate in value. You provided the reason of "They will be around forever." I simply asked why that warrants an increase in value over time.

>>49813526
>I think it’s about ego
Yes, I think so too anon. It’s not just a case of losing money, it’s a case of being wrong, of their gut feeling guiding them the wrong way, and that they got duped. It’s easier to fool someone than to convince someone they’ve been fooled - it is extremely painful to the ego.

I don’t think the diehard hodlers will ever sell, not for a long time. There is always the past performance they can look back to, to say “if it did it before, it can shoot up again”. Thus is becomes once again a virtue of patience and fighting against the doubters who would tarnish their ponzi with “FUD”. On some level they are insecure about crypto as an investment and this shows with how sensitive and easily angered they are on the subject.

>>49813879
if anybody could answer that the universe and consequently markets would be broken, unfixable. the fact that it can't be answered is why there was ever money to be made in bitcoin in the first place.

the only answer for the positive that makes any sense is that retail, hedge fund, and sovereign adoption of bitcoin is still in the low single digit percentages. IF it ever does see any reasonable adoption or usage, the price would have to increase to absorb that added capital. that's it.

Let’s stop looking at or referring to the Bitcoin price in dollars starting now.

>>49813879
define logical without being subjective

>>49813961
you shouldn't be doing that anyway
the only fair way to measure altcoins is in bitcoin
and the only fair way to measure bitcoin is in gold, or against a weighted inflation-adjusted basket of top-x fiat currencies.

>>49813990
I just did what you asked and the cryptos are down.

>>49814029
that they are.

>>49812940
I'd tell you to read pic related but I know by your post you won't be able to invest the time to do so.

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

If bitcoin would actually be used as a currency it would cease to be traded almost purely on sentiment and should start to trade at a stable value against other sovereign currencies, due to the balance of trade in bitcoin. There'd be no reason for it to continually 'go up'

>>49812975
He's 100% correct. You can't see it because you're brainwashed. Cryptocurrencies are supported only by the faith ppl have in them and, because they lack intrinsic value, the only way anyone can make money is by finding greater fools to buy their bags.

>>49812940
>Gold price goes up in dollar terms during inflation
>That means gold has failed as a hedge against inflation
ngmi

>>49813926
>>49813961
"Why bitcoin have value"
>if anybody could answer that the universe and consequently markets would be broken
>define "logical" (nice sidestep, you took notes from Clinton I see)
Can't make this shit up.

>If there was adoption as a currency, price would have to increase to absorb added capital
This makes sense, but again, we run into several problems I listen already, namely the incredibly deflationary nature of that, and the fact that seemingly everyone who holds btc measures its value in usd, and indeed, intends to turn it into USD someday

>>49814039
This book isn’t about Bitcoin. It’s about sound money, which the author claims Bitcoin is one solution.

>>49813337
>It's the first decentralized ponzi scheme ever
No it's not, it's been done before with chain letters, before the days of the internet.

>>49814064
your points are effectively grounded on falsities. that's why you're confusing yourself.
by your definition gold also isn't money and trending to zero, and no amount of excuses for gold invalidates the same excuses for bitcoin.

dollars are the unit of account for a political moment in time, they are not objective value, nor does most of the world use or care about them.

>>49814048
The supply is finite, isn't it? That would be a reason for it to go up in case of mass adoption as a currency, but is also simultaneously the reason it's worthless as a currency (extreme deflation if it ever was used as a currency)

>>49814059
Btc has gone DOWN in this ongoing period of inflation

>>49814048
Wrong, bitcoin doesn't suffer from the inflationary pressures that fiat currency does. Bitcoin's relative value increases by virtue of the fact that fiat currency is constantly decreasing in value

>>49814116
no, bitcoin has gone up several hundred thousand times under inflation
bitcoin started to falter when inflation concerns were broadcast from governments worldwide, and measures were taken to curb it.

a very common mistake by people that don't understand what inflation numbers are measuring
the derivative of inflation is really what bitcoin has gained, and consequently lost from.

>>49814143
see
>>49814116
deflationary currency is so useless as to be an oxymoron

>>49814114
Gold's excuse is that people are attracted to it. They find it physically appealing, at what is apparently a deep psychological level. Gold has power because people will do things to get it, simply to have it and hold it. People will do things for bitcoin, but only because they're trying to get in earlier than a greater fool so they can one day turn it back into USD. Unlike gold, bitcoin isn't a physical material that people thirst over.

>>49813462
You're only technically correct, crypto is still a pyramid scheme even if not, EXACTLY, a ponzi scheme.

>The basic construction is that you have an investment that yields payouts to investors, but those payouts originate from new investors. You just take the payments from new recruits and give them to the previous investors. And it keeps on going until the rate of new investors recruited can not keep up with the investor payouts.
This is literally crypto lato sensu.

>Ponzi schemes are extremely illegal btw, except when the government runs it. For example the retirement programs in almost every state function like a ponzi scheme.
I agree and I'm glad somebody else noticed.

>>49814182
gold has power because it's old and has consensus. nothing more.

the point is you're asking why bitcoin shouldn't go to zero, but the real question is why hasn't it already. we've seen many altcoins go to zero, many prior attempts at bitcoin go to zero, so why is it still around?
is it a macro aberration driven by a unique never before seen global monetary policy failure? maybe, but if it's a unique event, that makes the birth of bitcoin a unique event too. globally unique things tend to stick around.

getting caught up on terms like "currency" betray what bitcoin ultimately is, which is just the only possible globally decentralized scarce digital asset. if that has value or not is up for people to decide, but regardless of what satoshi decided to call his creation (money, currency) it's what his creation actually is (fixed supply, 10 minute block time) that defines it.

>>49813198
Remittances and currency exchange. Next?

>>49814212
> argumentation failing so just say a bunch of words

Ok why does being used as a way to transmit value overseas mean the value should increase?

>>49813577
I've heard this retarded arg many times from cryptoniggers and it's time to shoot it down. Anything grows in value if ppl invest in it, but piramid games use tokens that either 1. Have no intrinsic value or 2. Their intrinsic value is not the reason ppl are buying, like tulips.
The very fact that cryptoniggers always seek ppl to join crypto tells you there's something suspicious, if crypto was valuable they would try to keep ppl away from buying.

>>49814209
> gold has power because it's old and has consensus. nothing more.

bullshit, gold is beautiful objectively and if the price was lower people would be making shit out of it all the time. Not just jewellery either (which women will always love). If it was cheap enough people would use it for decorative purposes on all kinds of things instead of cheaper metals. It has value in its properties and appearance, which came first, then the value we ascribe to the commodity came later, not the other way around.

>>49812940
>- The value of bitcoin is, and always has been, measured in USD. In this sense, it has always been a fundamental failure. Even the biggest HODL faggots in the world only intend to turn their stack back into USD some day.
The value of anything is always measured against the asset with the larger liquid. The USD + US treasuries are still the most liquid asset and so Bitcoin will continue to be priced against it. The day BTC/USD no longer has a price is the day that no one will want to sell Bitcoin for any amount of fiat. For you to capitulate and buy bitcoin at $200K, someone will need to sell it to you for $200k, and for that, you need a price.
>- Bitcoin is also, from a practical standpoint, incredibly centralized in various major exchanges, again defeating one of the main purposes.
That's like saying that the internet is incredibly centralized in various major websites and cloud providers. Bitcoin being decentralized means that people are free to do whatever they want with their Bitcoin, including leaving it on centralized platforms. Decentralization is a means to an end, and the only thing that needs to be decentralized for Bitcoin to achieve the end of sound money is governance. There have been no backward-incompatible changes to the Bitcoin consensus parameters since Satoshi's client.
>- Bitcoin is proving not to be a hedge against inflation, or a store of value, or frankly, anything useful at all.
Going from a neat cryptography project to spawning a trillion-dollar industry in under 13 years, with legal tender status in 2 nations, a larger market cap than all but 25 national currencies and the best performing asset of the last decade says otherwise. You are of course welcome to disagree and continue to deny its value as you spend your Sunday writing an entire thread about it.

>>49814288
The dollar system is about to collapse.

>>49813724
>bitcoin goes up because digital currencies, especially decentralized ones aren't going away and as long as digital currencies of any kind exist,
Circular logic.

>the one that can't be recreated (the first) will always be highly valuable,
Wishfull thinking.

>>49814209
This is the only decent answer in the whole thread. I still would argue gold has actual value, or a different, fundamental type of value, which bitcoin does not. People can look at gold and get joy from it. People cannot look at bitcoin. Any representation of Bitcoin (numbers on a screen, a hard drive) bring joy only because the person is imagining converting it into usd by finding new participants for the ponzi scheme. Gold also has utility as a material. But bitcoin simply being the first scarce digital asset, although still not intrinsic value, I can understand why it could be a very, very long lasting ponzi scheme, and as such, be almost a legitimate store of value in practicality.

>>49814298
and precisely the same for bitcoin. its utility as a global uncensorable payment layer came first, then it's speculative value.
the true non-speculative value for gold is minuscule, hence why almost all gold ever mined sits in vaults.

>>49814329
says you lol

>>49813816
>if you think that's likely, great. doesn't change the fact that you've already missed out on the one chance in your li

That doesn't make it less of a piramid scheme.

>>49814338
no, just human nature, of which we have many examples.
there is no way to create another bitcoin, we either have it, or we have nothing but government currencies.

the only arguments you ever hear against are late adopters trying to shill whatever altcoin they think is going to "kill" bitcoin, despite the fact that 4 years later there's newer shinier things than their alt for people to switch their attention to.

>>49813816
>and has already made people very wealthy

Every piramid scheme makes SOME ppl very wealthy.

>>49814359
Russia has won, and half the global market is backing them despite sanctions.

India is flipping russian oil, china is flipping SEA, and Americans are flipping burgers.

>>49813724
>the one that can't be recreated (the first) will always be highly valuable
i can literally take btc code from github and launch a clone right now, i could even import the current state of the chain

>>49814327
1. Cope
2. Cope
3. "Look at all the participants the ponzi scheme has racked up" + Ad hominem

>>49814343
> and precisely the same for bitcoin
Bullshit, no one buys Bitcoin for its inherent beauty or properties. It’s “store of value” utility is mimicked by 20,000 other functionally identical cryptocurrencies (in fact in many ways newer coins are superior). Gold does not have 20,000 other metals which share its exact function (unique yellow metal, beauty).

The only argument you have is that Bitcoin has value because of its “network” or namesake, in other words the “brand” of Bitcoin gives it value, in other words it is based on faith - exactly like fiat.

>>49814397
I'm utterly confused by this. You know it's possible for USD to exist and for US to not be a global hegemon right?

>>49814340
yes, gold has different value, but the divide is ultimately physical/digital. mass/energy. you can't ever make a truly secure physical bitcoin, and you can't ever make truly ownable digital gold.

most gold isn't looked at, it's in vaults, gold gets 90%+ of its value from the value of shared human consensus, settling on something that is difficult to forge, easy to store long-term, relatively easy to verify, and scarce enough to command high value per arbitrarily manageable unit is what gives gold (and by extension bitcoin) value.

>>49814386
This topic is beside the point, but still interesting and true. Crypto has not "created" one single millionaire, ever, because Bitcoin has never created any value. It's truly been a zero sum game. For every crypto millionaire, there are people who put a million into the ponzi scheme.

>>49814340
>first scarce digital asset
not the first, but the only, that's the important point.

you're as likely to get everybody to switch to your altcoin as you are to get everybody to start using a different metal instead of gold. that kind of mass-consensus doesn't arrive through utility or technology, but though there not being any obvious choice or alternative to cause friction or debate between differing cultures or communities. an easy undebatable choice will always win out in the end.

>>49813337
Tobin's Q is usually fairly even because you can liquidate a company and split the proceeds evenly between the shares. In that sense there is something behind the value but in practice that's an extreme measure.

>>49814428
The dollar is inflating the world economy and countries see nothing of value putting up with American wars, corporate fascism, and medical tyranny.

>>49814400
and the fact that it will be ultimately worthless is why bitcoin isn't technology, but a phenomenon.

>>49814410
yes, mimicked and failed. if you don't understand why bitcoin is unique, then you're not in a position to argue for or against any of this stuff, you have fundamental gaps in your knowledge of why some things have value and others don't.

>>49814466
same goes for gold, again, by this broken logic.

>>49814410
>the “brand” of Bitcoin gives it value, in other words it is based on faith - exactly like fiat.
fiat has the guns of whatever state emits it behind it

>>49814493
Maybe, but that's got nothing to do with the success or failure of bitcoin as a currency

>>49814209
>but the real question is why hasn't it already.
(((Whales))) use their many accounts to trade btc making it look like it has value, all in order to attract greater fools. This can last forever, doesn't change the fact btc is useless and a piramid scheme.

>>49814505
>bitcoin isn't technology, but a phenomenon.
pic rel werw not plushy toys but a phenomenon as well

>>49814516
Remittances and currency exchange. Store of value. Access to the globalarket without a World banking system approved bank account.

There are still billions of people on earth who are unbanked but have internet access.

>>49814505
>same goes for gold
No, because people can work hard and find gold. You go out, dig in the ground for a long time, you find gold, you bring it to people, it brings them joy cuz their ape brains are hard wired to get joy from it. That's creation of value, creation of wealth. I know it's ridiculous too when broken down, but it is still a type of value bitcoin cannot ever encapsulate.

>>49813084
>Unlike gold, bitcoin does not have any beauty or other value rooted in human psychology.
This point is stupid tho.
Gold has become an incredibly important industrial material in the last 20 years or so given its physical properties, you are making it a disservice for pointing it as the "ooooh shiny!" bullshit of yore.

>>49814550
I mean, it's true. Most of the value of the sought after neanie babies did not come from them being really good plushies

>>49814573
indeed, most people bought them to sell them to a greater fool for more, just like crypto

>>49814551
>Remittance
Already plenty of options for remitting funds overseas
>Currency Exchange
Already solved by Visa et al. I can use my bank card at any ATM in the world
>Store of value
Plainly false, see the past few weeks
>Access to the gobalarket World banking system approved bank account
Now you're just saying word salad
>unbanked people but have internet access
Ever heard of M-Pesa?
Now you're just

>>49814327
>- Unlike an actual investment, bitcoin does not have earnings, dividends, buybacks, or any other reason to appreciate in value. It is by definition, academically, a ponzi scheme. Not even saying ponzi schemes are intrinsically bad. But bitcoin is one.
You are right. Bitcoin is not an investment. Bitcoin is money and buying Bitcoin is a form of saving. Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because there are no claims about a non-existent business that generates profits or yield. Bitcoin is leaderless and there is no fraud. Everything is out in the open for everyone to see on the timechain.
>- Unlike gold, bitcoin does not have any beauty or other value rooted in human psychology.
That is subjective. Fortunately, the success of Bitcoin does not rely on the subjectivity of human psychology but on the praxiological certainty of the properties of hard money.
>- Unlike ammo, bitcoin does not have any utility, especially off the grid.
The idea that there is no utility in the ability to store value into the future will be a very expensive lesson that your descendants won't forget.
> As a currency, bitcoin is useless due to deflation. Deflation is the one thing a currency must never do. Central banks around the world avoid inflation when they can, but much more importantly, they avoid deflation. Deflation is the quickest way for a currency to become a liability for an economy, because people would rather >le HODL than spend their money.
The idea that deflation is a bad thing is government propaganda to justify theft via inflation. Humans will always want to consume. There is an infinite desire to consume. You spend your money on a laptop and smartphone despite knowing that you will get a better model for less in 4 years. Inflation only distorts measurements to encourage conspicuous consumption and malinvestments. In a healthy economy under sound money, goods and services will steadily deflate as more goods and services of higher quality can be made with less human time.

>>49812977
>Digital Gold

This is a midwit take. It's not comparable to gold because the properties that make Bitcoin 'Bitcoin', can be replicated by anyone. You could create another Bitcoin right now, identical in every way to the original. The scarcity of Bitcoin is an illusion.

Go ahead and make another copy of Gold right now, that has all the characteristics and properties that make Gold valuable.

>>49814607

You have faith in your VISA system. You can be cancelled for wrong think at anytime.. to much honking.

>>49814327
>Going from a neat cryptography project to spawning a trillion-dollar industry in under 13 years, with legal tender status in 2 nations, a larger market cap than all but 25 national currencies and the best performing asset of the last decade says otherwise.

The only thing that shows is that the (((ppl))) that created crypto also run the NWO, that doesn't mean crypto isn't a piramid scheme, one that was used as a test for their future CBDCs.

>>49814550
the difference being that stuffed toys already existed for decades, ergo beanie babies were not unique and thus only a passing fad, as seen by the short lifespan and immediate market penetration rather that bitcoin's slow rise among different communities.

>>49814564
tenuous and ultimately failed logic. what the sub 0.01% of those that use or hold gold do is not what gives it value, in the same way that the silk road users are not what drive bitcoin's valuation.


i can't be bothered to go around in circles, so i'll simply repeat the only thing that matters:

>the point is no matter what your argument is, you've already lost, because bitcoin is here, today, highly valued, and has already made people very wealthy. arguing about why it might not exist in the future is cute but ultimately pointless.

cope threads like these always miss the mark. no matter what your opinion is history has been written, and if you failed to take advantage you only have yourself to blame. thankfully those with foresight, even if ultimately misguided, have been proven right today and have become very wealthy off the back of it.

>>49814377
>there is no way to create another bitcoin,
The code is FOSS.

>>49814643
At least I can use VISA to, you know, actually buy stuff. Let me know when bitcoin can do that and I'll think about it. And you can't buy stuff with bitcoin in El Salvador. Merchants reject it or immediately convert it back into sovereign currency due to the ridiculous volatility

>>49812940
It can't go up because it's absolutely manipulated via wrapped BTC (wBTC). Wrapped BTC allows for margin trading and exchanges are liquidating them, as well as other exchanges. Ethereum was only made with the sole purpose of manipulating Bitcoin. Then again, what do you expect from JPMorgan?

>>49814471
>that kind of mass-consensus
If we agree crypto is supported by mass-consensus then we agree crypto is a cult.

>>49814619
>deflation is good
Enjoy permanent debt due to never being able to pay off loans because you're being paid less and less for the same value labor over time

>>49814642
>what are network effects

>>49814505
>same goes for gold, again, by this broken logic
Wrong, ppl buy gold for many uses from engineering, science to esthetic. Crypto is bought just for pump and dump.

>>49814682
>muh nocoiner cope
>muh gorillions of crypto millionaires
Again, crypto is, by definition, a ponzi scheme. You can relish the fact you got in early, that's fine. But ponzi schemes are zero sum. You can claim you got rich from it, that's fine. You cannot claim MANY people got rich from it. The vast majority of participants didn't, and the total loss of wealth exactly equals the gain. Those who avoided the whole thing successfully avoided a ponzi scheme. That is all there is to it.

All that said, I bought (one) btc at $12,000 and sold at $18k, years ago. I also made $20,000 from stellar lumens. On a more legitimate front, I bought several thousand shares of Cloudflare in 2020 and later sold in 2021 for a 400% / $90,000 profit. There are ways to make money other than ponzi schemes, though you are almost certainly larping as a crypto winner, because there are few winners in ponzi schemes.

>>49814682
>>the point is no matter what your argument is, you've already lost, because bitcoin is here, today, highly valued, and has already made people very wealthy. arguing about why it might not exist in the future is cute but ultimately pointless.
>cope threads like these always miss the mark.

What your dumbass doesn't understand is that doesn't contradict OP, which is why you haven't answered >>49814367 .
You're arg boils down to it's not a piramid scheme because the scammers made money.

>>49814619
>- Everyone in the world has heard of bitcoin. Absolutely everyone. The vast majority of people who ARE going to buy, HAVE bought. There is no untapped market to tap into for your ponzi scheme.
This is perhaps the most painful pill for you to swallow. Bitcoin will continue to exponentially appreciate when measured in fiat currencies even if no one new ever buys a single Satoshi for fiat ever again. This is because the supply of fiat currencies can only increase exponentially with time in order to service the interest on the debt of previous fiat creation. If fiat fails to expand in supply, it collapses. Bitcoin has no top because fiat has no bottom.

The reality is that the vast majority of people who do not yet own any Bitcoin won't buy it out of their own fruition but will do as they continue to experience their wealth deteriorate relative to those who own Bitcoin. Those with a 1% allocation to Bitcoin, will eventually have a 99% allocation if they don't do anything simply because Bitcoin will hold its value better than anything else over the long term. As of now, in spite of the astronomical growth rate of Bitcoin, it still only accounts for less than 1% of its total addressable market.

First Bitcoin will demonetize gold. Then Bitcoin will demonetize index funds. Then Bitcoin will demonetize real estate. Then Bitcoin will demonetize bonds. This is not just some high-grade hopium. This is because most assets have been monetized as an inferior form of money because the world lacks an adequate store of value. When Bitcoin is half of all the wealth in the world, then you can start to say that there is no untapped market.

>>49814091
It's a lot harder to understand Bitcoin if you don't first understand sound money.

>>49815042
The idea that fiat's failure will make crypto increase has been disproven in the last few months, when fiat has been shitting the bed and crypto, instead of mooning as predicted by retards like you, is tanking. I'm sure you'll find some excuse for it.

>>49815042
Luckily I'm not planning to keep all my wealth in inflating currency. I'm sure as hell not going to put it into bitcoin after what we've seen in the last few months. I will instead put my wealth into things that will always be useful such as land and equity. If the systems keeping my land and equity worth something it will surely destroy whatever infrastructure is also required to keep bitcoin worth something

>>49812940
But b-but my m-my 100K per BTC EOY?

>>49815042
>the vast majority of people who do not yet own any Bitcoin won't buy it out of their own fruition but will do as they continue to experience their wealth deteriorate relative to those who own Bitcoin
So they will have to get bitcoin, by trading fiat for it? That doesn't make any sense, because in your scenario, those who already have bitcoin will never be so stupid as to part from it. Meaning bitcoin will never become widespread. Meaning your scenario will never play out. Do you see the paradox in what you've described? It's just staggering how crypto proponents can't grasp this. A system of wealth storage, which strongly and disproportionately rewards those who got in early, for no reason other than the fact they got in early... Is a really shitty and useless system of wealth storage. It screws the vast majority of people who didn't manage to arbitrarily hear about it first, meaning those people won't want to adopt it, meaning it won't get widespread, meaning it won't have any intrinsic value, and even if it did spread, IT WOULD ONLY BE ABLE TO SPREAD BY GETTING TRADED FOR FIAT. WHICH BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, NO ONE SHOULD WANT. Jesus christ.

>>49812940
Two reasons. First, there is a precedent for alts to go up after Bitcoin goes up, so the rise in price is crucial for many to start their pump and dump schemes. Second, inflation makes the price of everything go up, but you will need to wait for the market sentiment to cool down first before this happens.

>>49814799
>Enjoy permanent debt due to never being able to pay off loans because you're being paid less and less for the same value labor over time
No one wise will take on (or issue) Bitcoin-denominated debt under a hard money standard and if they do, it will be on near-zero, zero, or even negative interest rates. Investments and ventures will be founded on your personal accumulated Bitcoin savings or the accumulated Bitcoin saving of the investors. There will be no debt whose default is insured by the loss in purchasing power of those who unfortunately save in the fiat currency.

>>49814572
And BTC is an industrial material? They still make jewelry and other products out of gold that arent tech you know that right?

>>49815119
>The idea that fiat's failure will make crypto increase has been disproven in the last few months, when fiat has been shitting the bed and crypto, instead of mooning as predicted by retards like you, is tanking. I'm sure you'll find some excuse for it.
On the contrary. Fiat has not been failing over the last few months but has been strengthening and following sound monetary theory. The FED has been allowing rates to rise closer to what the interest rates would be in a free market (north of 15%) and they have started to unroll the source of the fiat Ponzi that is the FED's balance sheet. If the FED can pull this off without breaking the Ponzi then Bitcoin deserves to be trading much lower in USD terms as the US dollar is just as sound as Bitcoin but with much greater liquidity.

Of course I'm buying Bitcoin so I don't think that they will be able to pull this off without breaking something and resorting to expanding the money supply with QE infinity in a way that will make March 2020 look like a test run. The fact that you seem to substitute Bitcoin for 'crypto' so liberally makes me fear that all of this will fly over your head.

>>49815145
>Luckily I'm not planning to keep all my wealth in inflating currency. I'm sure as hell not going to put it into bitcoin after what we've seen in the last few months. I will instead put my wealth into things that will always be useful such as land and equity. If the systems keeping my land and equity worth something it will surely destroy whatever infrastructure is also required to keep bitcoin worth something
The reality is that you don't need to store your wealth in an inflating currency to be affected by Bitcoin demonetizing everything, including land and equity. Your land and equity will be worth something after they have been completely demonetized, but you would have had more land and equity if you used Bitcoin to measure opportunity. This quote explains it best:
>“This is a historical lesson of immense significance, and should be kept in mind by anyone who thinks his refusal of Bitcoin means he doesn't have to deal with it. History shows it is not possible to insulate yourself from the consequences of others holding money that is harder than yours.”

>>49815381
Nothing but pure bullshit from you, as usual. Inflation has been skyrocketing everywhere in the world and, according to cryptoniggers, this was supposed to be the moment ppl start fleeing to btc and yet the opposinte is happening. Your rhetoric is pathetic, your lies obvious. Let's see what excuse you come up with next.

>>49815574
>History shows it is not possible to insulate yourself from the consequences of others holding money that is harder than yours.
This is correct, however btc will not be adopted by anyone except greater fools, as the last months have shown.

You have to evaluate it as a trading instrument. The stock market indexes are in debt so they can be compared to bitcoin which is worth nothing. Stock valuation globally is hundreds of trillions equivalent $. The largest single trading instruments are worth over $1 trillion and numbered several. The notoriety of bitcoin is nearing that of google or apple. Therefore it can be assumed reasonable for bitcoin to be valued similarly to google or apple, which is around $150,000.

>>49814734
For now. Visa no work in Russia, and the economic war between BRICS and the West is as hot as its every been.

>>49815199
>So they will have to get bitcoin, by trading fiat for it?
If fiat is still around then yes. You can also mine Bitcoin and trade goods that you own and the services that you provide for Bitcoin.
>That doesn't make any sense, because in your scenario, those who already have bitcoin will never be so stupid as to part from it.
That's not what I said. People WILL be stupid enough to part way from their Bitcoin for fiat and some people will even be SMART to part way from their Bitcoin for fiat if it means that they end up with more Bitcoin in the long run or to fulfill whatever desires they have. You seem to be projecting ideas that I have never stated.
>Meaning bitcoin will never become widespread.
Bitcoin is a literality designed to be distributed. The emission schedule literally lasts until 2140, 100x farther into the future than the average FED chairperson thinks about. You literally cannot receive Bitcoin without some of it being probabilistically distributed to the miners. And you literally cannot be a miner without expending energy - a commodity that is distributed all over the universe.
>Meaning your scenario will never play out. Do you see the paradox in what you've described?
What 'scenario' did you think I was explaining? I was simply stating that most people won't be smart enough to have to foresight to acquire Bitcoin because they understand the mechanisms of fiat currency debasement and the properties of sound money, but will instead acquire (and dispose of) Bitcoin because they see that the number goes up over the long term. I was not painting a picture of a universe where Bitcoin holders are maximally intelligent, but rather the opposite scenario. The idea that you can only buy Bitcoin with fiat is also pretty funny. You can buy bitcoin with fiat, goods, services, and even energy by mining Bitcoin. Perhaps when you become capable of discriminating between Bitcoin and 'crypto' perhaps you'll also be able to understand this.

>>49815693
>Nothing but pure bullshit from you, as usual. Inflation has been skyrocketing everywhere in the world and, according to cryptoniggers, this was supposed to be the moment ppl start fleeing to btc and yet the opposinte is happening. Your rhetoric is pathetic, your lies obvious. Let's see what excuse you come up with next.
'Cryptoniggers' are not a homogeneous set of maximally intelligent people whose every word you should take as financial gospel. The reality is that Bitcoin went from $3K to $64K in about 6 months immediately after the FED announced QE inifinty. If that is not an inflation hedge, I don't know what is.

The markets are 'forward-looking' because the market prices are always giving information about the expectations of the future. If we all knew for a certainty that the world would come to an end tomorrow, most market prices would degenerate into maximal entropy and would provide no information. Any monetary premium would be worth exactly zero because there would certainly be no goods or services for the money to buy in the future.

Understanding this allows you to understand why the price of Bitcoin would shoot up when high inflation was made manifest but the FED was denying it existed. It also allows you to understand why the price of Bitcoin would correct when the FED starts to do something about said inflation, or at least when the market has these expectations. But if the concept of an imperfect, 'forward-looking', market is too much for you to understand, then I can also understand why you think might be confused by the current Bitcoin price action.

>>49816357
>The reality is that Bitcoin went from $3K to $64K in about 6 months immediately after the FED announced QE inifinty. If that is not an inflation hedge, I don't know what is.
Then why did it do the opposite in the last months, you keep avoiding that question.

>>49816357
>But if the concept of an imperfect, 'forward-looking', market is too much for you to understand, then I can also understand why you think might be confused by the current Bitcoin price action.
So now you're saying that if ppl don't buy crypto it's the market's fault. What intresting economic theory. So if I take a shit and ppl don't want to buy it that doesn't mean my shit has no value, it just means the market doesn't have the intellect to understand its value.

>>49816389
>Then why did it do the opposite in the last months, you keep avoiding that question.
I hoped that if you read the rest of the reply you might be able to synthesize this yourself but here it is explicitly:
The market expects that the FED's current plan of raising the federal funds rate and rolling off assets on their balance sheet will be enough to reduce inflation measured in USD going into the future, reducing the future demand for an 'inflation-hedge' like Bitcoin and reducing the future demand for 'risk-on' assets like Bitcoin.

>>49816514
You're wrong, 1st of all your arg only applies to US, in EU inflation is pretty much pushed hardcore, 2nd, even in the US most ppl expect inflation as anyone can see by talking with americans on the internet. Face it, these are just excuses, the real reason ppl aren't jumping to btc is because the whole thing is a joke, ppl want a stable gov backed currency, not internet piramid schemes.

>>49816459
>So now you're saying that if ppl don't buy crypto it's the market's fault. What intresting economic theory.
Again, another one talking about 'crypto' when I have only ever mentioned Bitcoin specifically but yes. You've just rediscovered the idea that if the market were maximally intelligent, there would be no price changes and there would be no market because everything would be known by everyone will absolute certainty.
>So if I take a shit and ppl don't want to buy it that doesn't mean my shit has no value, it just means the market doesn't have the intellect to understand its value.
No, but it COULD mean that the market doesn't have the intellect to understand its value. It's a valid hypothesis not yet proven nor disproven. The beauty about the market is that the more incorrect its valuation of something is, the more profit you can potentially make by exploiting your information asymmetry against the market. In your case, you can accumulate your shit, and the shit of others, on the cheap and use it to provide something that the market will value in the future. A good example of this would be crude oil. Initially, crude oil had a negative cost on the market as it was seen as a nuisance that would spoil farmland. Farmers would pay others to dispose of it. The information asymmetry of those who knew how to extract, refine and combust crude oil into the fuel oil that would power the 20th century and beyond benefited heavily in the market by exploiting this asymmetry.

>>49812940
I agree. I hear many genuinely intelligent people advocate for BTC but my intuitive senses tell me it has fundamental flaws. One major one is even if money only has the value we give it, that means everyone holding BTC has a conflict of interest going into arguments regarding it. I hate to say it but money probably has to be imposed top down. Barter works bottom up but there gold would be superior. One thing governments can do is impose legal tender without someone running a Ponzi scheme. Libertarians are just wrong on this point.

>>49812940
>negotiation phase

>>49816739
>You're wrong, 1st of all your arg only applies to US, in EU inflation is pretty much pushed hardcore,
The US dollar is currently the world reserve currency. US treasuries are a significant holding on the balance sheets of every major central bank, including the European Central Bank, or held transitively on the balance sheets of the central banks that don't hold US treasuries but hold liabilities of central banks that do hold US treasuries. As of 2021, 60 percent of international transactions were settled in the US dollar. To claim that US monetary policy does not control global monetary policy is to claim that the tail wags the dog.
>2nd, even in the US most ppl expect inflation as anyone can see by talking with americans on the internet.
The market prices are only set by the cumulative actions of those who actually participate in the market. The largest participants in the market set the price. This is not a democratic vote. US retail 'investors' deciding to put in the $100 they have left after rent into Bitcoin is not going to meaningfully set the price, but Billion dollar allocators going 'risk-off' and efficiently selling all of their Bitcoin will. It doesn't help that a large fraction of the market with leverage is unwinding. The one good thing about the current market is that I get to accumulate more Bitcoin.

Imagine if we were inventing trade for the first time now or whatever. One proposed solution is having a complex central bureaucracy made up of corruptible people controlling ever aspect of the money supply. The other option is using a decentralized system with actual incorruptible rules.

There would be no debate if the corruption wasn't already entrenched with retards like you everywhere reflexively defending whatever is established.

>>49817140
>The US dollar is currently the world reserve currency.
Irrelevant, US prices are still skyrocketing, which, according to cryptoniggers, should have made ppl flee to btc. Face it, your predictions were wrong, ppl don't a high volatile, slow transaction, internet dependent currency.

>>49817281
>The other option is using a decentralized system with actual incorruptible rules.
How convienient of you not to mention the dozens of scams the crypto scene has every year.

>>49817390
>Face it, your predictions were wrong, ppl don't a high volatile, slow transaction, internet dependent currency.
Brandolini's law

>>49817390
>according to cryptoniggers
>if I reduce everything to strawmen I never have to think
>>49817416
See you can't even begin to pretend you're not braindead. There's nothing there. Asking you to conceptually separate these things in an honest way is like asking a horse to write literature on a typewriter.
Were the rules of the system broken? Did Bitcoin suddenly print more than 21 million? What does anything I said have to do with any of these scams you mindless cancer? If you're retarded enough to buy a random token some guy made the issue has nothing to do with any principles of crypto. People were already being retards and buying worthless tokens before, with crypto at least they can often see the exact moment they got scammed, it's recorded on chain.

>>49812940
yup, I agreed. bitcoin is just a proof of concept of what blockchain is capable of. it will be replaced with new true blockchain with much more useful than current tech. imagine when the computational capabilities of bitcoin is used in simulation or calculation something, not just hollow maths with no use case.

>>49817418
What I posted is just an observation of how the pop reacts to crypto, you say it's 'bullshit' because you can't explain why ppl aren't adopting crypto.

>>49817586

You made an assertion about how crypto is incorruptable and you got your shit pushed in when I called you on it. Stop trying to act smart, you're not impressing anyone.

>>49817767
>You made an assertion about how crypto is incorruptable
And you didn't engage with the assertion at all. You made up a fantasy of what I said so you could feel good about your mindless reply. Probably because you can't begin to understand even the simplest basics of crypto.
You're completely incapable. You have never done anything in your life. If you had you would be capable of putting together simple coherent thoughts and you wouldn't need to resort to dishonesty in every post you make.

>>49812975

>>49817586
>muh they didn't mine more than 21mil btc so it's solid
except when a pajeet off fiver hired to code that shit screws up with security or just takes your deposit and looses it all on another crypto ponzi

>>49817837
What dishonesty you idiot, the entire crypto scene is a scam, everytime I check on it it's just faggots looking for suckers to buy their bags and news of ppl killing themselves after being rugpulled while some kike took off with their money to fuck jailbait on some island. Anyone describing such a scene as 'incorruptable' is severely mentaly retarded and should consider suicide.

>>49818249
>except when a pajeet off fiver hired to code that shit screws up
That you can do any retarded shit you want doesn't change anything about the security of Bitcoin.
How fucked in the head can you be? How are you completely unable to separate any of these concepts? If I can make a shitty online marketplace that says something about amazon?
>>49818337
>What dishonesty
>describing such a scene as 'incorruptable'
Isn't what I said. That's one example of the dishonesty everything you say is based on.
The rules of the system are incorruptible. You can set up a transparent system with a fixed supply or immutable rules that decide how much is released for example. This alone is, adding no other features is better than having those things handled by corrupt bureaucrats with no transparency.

>>49812940
>>read the white paper
>>compare and contrast with any asset in the world
>>zoom out

there you go

>>49818629
>having those things handled by corrupt bureaucrats with no transparency.

I'm no fan of central banking but the crypto scene is worse, with the exception of Monero.

>>49812975
Bitcoin is by definition, academically, a ponzi scheme.

>>49818629
it's as secure as the weakest link nigger

>>49817390
>Irrelevant, US prices are still skyrocketing, which, according to cryptoniggers, should have made ppl flee to btc

In times of economic uncertainty, ordinary people are not about to start spending real money on imaginary tokens.

>>49818799
Not when it comes to those specific attributes you mindless shithead. Again you can't separate anything conceptually, it's all just fuzzy conditioned buzzwords. Monero is one of the worst shitcoins. CPU mining is about as dumb as PoS.
>>49818837
What is? Does this pajeet of yours affect the security of my Bitcoins somehow? He managed to fork it and force me to use his fork without anyone noticing? What are you talking about? Do you even know?

>>49812940
>not reading all that
Do what the smart ones say and hold btc, okay?

>>49818960
>In times of economic uncertainty, ordinary people are not about to start spending real money on imaginary tokens.
My point exactly.

>>49819019
It doesn't matter what concepts you think btc has, we judge things by their results and until now crypto has only been good for pump and dumps, in other words it is a joke as a currency.
As for Monero, it offers secret transactions, which means it has an actual use beside pump and dump, unlike the rest of crypto.

Ethereum introduced Smart Contracts in 2015 and ever since there's been a litany of competitors seeking to be the Syscon’s killer up until now falling short of their ambitions by inadequately addressing one or more factors of the three major problems facing blockchain technology. They are Decentralization, Scalability and Security.

>>49819214
Then you admit you don't understand anything about anything and only operate based on vague conditioning. No hint of reason.
In the next breath you try to present a conceptual reason for why monero has value. Failing miserably exactly because you don't understand anything about anything.
You can have secret transactions without sacrificing security or the ability to provide transparency.
>it is a joke as a currency
What does this mean? What are you talking about? You don't actually know, it's all braindead conditioned memes.
What would success look like? Grocery store adoption? Bitcoin adds value because it does things you can't do without it. You can already shop for groceries without it.

>>49819214
As for Monero, it offers secret transactions, which means it has an actual use
Plus one on Monero. Although, I think on-chain privacy systems will be more used in term of secret transactions since it will be kind of cheaper and probably work across multi-chain

Arrival.

>>49819023

>>49819214
All money is imaginary. We're telling the normies. The fomo will be monolithic.

>>49813724
>bitcoin goes up because digital currencies, especially decentralized ones aren't going away

have you ever bought anything with bitcoin? it's not much use as currency.

>>49812975
this crash proves that it is, dumbass

if the only reason someone buys something is to flip the price then it's a ponzi scheme

>>49821426
So...
>every
business ever.

>>49821195
>on-chain privacy systems
Like Railgun? Except that, Not sure I am familiar with a lot of anonymity solutions built on chains. Majority of them are mixers or Layer 2 solutions which is not entirely secure and kind of expensive

>>49812940
The economy has not officially collapsed yet because CNN isn't shilling the fear as much as they do when things actually get scary and they are still backing Biden (half heartily). We will be lucky to see BTC stay at 19k when the economy falls out for the next 2 year recession numbers get here.

Let's see if I get dubs kek.

>>49821426
Almost nobody buys and then sells 100%.

Then everyone uses it only as they need to

If everyone got paid in bitcoin, the price would be going up (relative to fiat terms).

Bitcoin if used as a replacement for fiat, simply displaces the value of money from a inflationary moron lead system to a stable system with predictiable properties and economics. It's basically a direct upgrade to the economics of money

>>49812940
Maestro!
It's hard to see people who really understand the problems of Bitcoin. Kudos to you.

>>49814209
Gold is not only useful for its beauty and consensus. Gold is actually useful. If its price was cheaper, that is, if it were more abundant, it would be used even more in electronics and electric circuits, since gold is the best conductor out there. Imagine long power transmission lines coated in gold; we could increase our power efficiency by one order of magnitude.

>>49813724
>>49814400
>>49814505
Bitcoin is a cultural phenomenon but it is still a virtual asset, nothing guarantees that it will continue existing. Nobody thought Yahoo and Myspace would fall, but they did and other competitors took their place.

>>49821589
Honest businesses produce something or at least modify what they're purchasing, or even deal with transport. Bitcoin is literally just a digital token, there's no reason for the price to go up except that more people want it. That's a ponzi scheme.

>>49812940
the satoshi team already explained a lot of this in '09

BTC is not meant to be a replacement for world currency, but to open pandora's box and inspire new forms of money. the money of the future will be more like BTC than it will be like FIAT. the purpose for BTC was always misunderstood and the hype never made sense. The Satoshi team probably did want to use BTC to enrich themselves while sticking it to the man, but it was never the solution to corruption or the perfect form of money.
>well done to the people who've figured this out on their own
>many years of hype even made me forget what they had said for so many years. sorry for being part of that problem.
>fuck the fed

Not the usefulness is the main problem with BTC, but the slowness and the low transactions/minute rate.

I thought people on this forum understand crypto at least on a basic level.