/biz/ - Business & Finance

bch and nmc

>>49691160
Missing Rose

>>49691160
>He hasnt heard of All-Dimensional Sharding
Out of the way plebs. There can only be one true winner.

>>49691160
>>49691160
>>49691160
God tier
>Cardano
>Ethereum (because of l2s making eth valuable)
Good tier
>Avalanche
>Polkadot
Idk much about tier
>Chia
>Hedera
Dogshit tier
>Kadena
>Solana

>>49691440

This.

>>49691440
Retard

Already won L1 war
>ETH

Shit
>dot
>kadena
>solana
>cardano
>hbar

Literal scams
>avax
>chia

ok, now that the newfags are gone i can give actual opinions without making normies rich

future of L1's seems to be increasingly going into multichain. It doesn't look like there will be just One L1. the question then becomes which one will survive/ do the best?

Eth is a no brainer. Shit is miles ahead of the competition and with its shitty tech it still has highest TVL, backing and L2's fix alot of the downsides.

Chia is a novel and interesting use case, but with IPFS and Arweave i dont see it being competitive. Further, with everything going to pos i don't get why it inflating hardrive prices will be the better option.

Solana has huge backing from the most cartel like and dangerous VC in crypto. i hate it but its speed, and its data callbacks are very appealing. I can see it being used heavily in the future for smaller financial institutions.

kadena; as interesting as it is. probably will die.

polkadot has a good chance depending on what kind of ecosystem they get. they also are in talks with the WEF although that doesnt mean shit these days most high tier projects are.

Hedera is interesting and will be around for a while i feel. private tech companies love it. idk what the use case will be, probably some backend stuff that doesnt actually help increase the price of token holder kek,

cardano is interesting, they are super slow at development and have no ecosystem. their prove theory first then implement is different to every other crypto, if it wasn't so overvalued id be stacking it. But its WAAAY overvalued atm.

avalanche seems to be getting alot of the finance niche. But i see them losing out to ROSE when ROSE get their shit together.

Algo once again is like hedera. Huge institutional AND government backing . i doubt many bag holder will profit greatly from it. I would consider it a safe bet though.

there are a bunch of other L1 i'm interested to see.
Aleph zero testing the DAG as well but targeting individual use no institutional use like hed

>>49691440
Move Cardano to dogshit tier

if we want to talk mass adoption wise then hedera hashgraph is the answer, especially with the hbar foundation bringing mainstream companies to build on its network

>>49691160
Eth has been promising to upgrade for nearly a decade. its over.

>>49691160
There will be only one L1 blockchain and it's ETH. And with Polygon's scaling solutions it will easily dominate the rest. No doubt in my min

>>49691160
Where’s harmony?

>>49691160
tezos

>>49691160
They are all going to zero.

>>49691160
Thoughts on loopring?

>>49691160
God tier
>avalanche
Good tier
ethereum
>wasting your time and money tier
kadena
cardano
chia
solana
polkadot
hedera
>Special "you will win because the jews cant lose-tier
Solana

>>49691730
>uses an auxiliary protocol to AVOID using the actual network
>claim to be the "future"
LOL. Layer 2 is the equivalent of a duck tape fix.

>>49692061
Personally I see L2 scaling as the only genuine solution to the trilemma otherwise you get shit like Solana which is extremely centralized which defeats the biggest benefit of blockchains over standard ways we do finance in the world

Lmao so there are still Turks shilling this scam on /biz/?

>>49691160
PULSE. CHAIN.

>>49691160
Theta

>>49692279
Go buy more ugly tracksuits Richard

>>49691160
vaporware tier
>ETH
>ADA
you can't stop what is coming tier
>AVAX
>LINK
good tier
>DOT
dying promises tier
>SOL
>HBAR
you will never be a woman tier
>KDA
shilled by making tier lists posts on /biz/ tier
>CHIA

>>49691863
It’ll blow up for sure. ETH, Loopring and Matic are a based stack.

>>49691776
My nigerian

>>49691160
future tier:
>XCH
centralized and/or not secure tier:
>everything else

>>49691928
>>49692580
Do you guys have anything to refute the claims of >>49692197 against AVAX?

Sorry fellas there's only one official layer 1 blockchain of the UFC and that's Vechain!!!! but in all seriousness i just bought half a million of this yesterday thanks for playing

>>49692179
Polygon is far more centralized than even heavily centralized SOL. L2 are just centralized sidechains that parasitize value from the L1.

>>49692689
It's literally just schizo nonsense relating LINK memes to AVAX memes because people chose to reskin them, which is something people do for pretty much all coins because /biz/ isn't as dedicated or creative as it used to be and cant be asked to make OC apparently. Idk what that has to do with the coin though. Doublespend is old FUD and you can figure that out for yourself if you want.

>>49692433
swan dive into peak New Dheli traffic from the scummy overpass you woke up on you stinky low IQ shitskin

Pulsechain is going to be the only chain that's needed or used in the next 5 years. Right now ETH is the only chain being used and its expensive and can't scale, the POS upgrade keeps being delayed and will probably just fucking break when it eventually launches. Pulsechain brings the POS upgrade sooner and with a copy of every ERC 20, including NFTs. All NFT launches will be on pulsechain, every ETH defi game will move to pulsechain, and every person who owns an ERC 20 will have an incentive to connect to the network to see what they can sell.

>>49692844
>Pulsechain brings the POS upgrade sooner and with a copy of every ERC 20, including NFTs.
Okay, how exactly will Pulsechain not be just as shit as you say ETH is which Pulse is a literal clone project of? The project isn't exactly teeming with tons of high quality engineers working on the project. Also just taking the ERC 20 tokens and saying 'we have them here too!' doesn't mean people will use them or the devs working on those tokens on ETH will consider the tokens on Pulse part of their actual project. I can clone ETH, but that doesn't mean the shit I make has any value

>>49691160
Only a few L1's will be left, Hedera and ICP will be one of them.

>>49692730
Matic isn’t really a L2 if it’s a side chain (which it is). A L2 would be something like Loopring.

hbar will unironically kill eth

>>49693075
Someone take this bagholder to the infirmary, he's delusional

>>49693075
>ICP
this has been getting shilled/fudded here a lot recently, what's it about?

r/crypto said it's a scam so i haven't bought it though, need to do more research

What will succeed
>ETH
>ADA
>DOT

Short term success
>ETH

Med term success
>ADA

Long term success
>DOT

All will be good plays, but the time scale is when you'll see a big ROI.

>>49693024
We won't know til it launches, it doesn't even have a whitepaper so you just have to believe it will be cheaper. What we do know is it will be a new layer 1 with a ton of hype around it when it launches. Also how the fuck could there be startups working on the chain already if it hasnt even launched. Just trust the plan or stay poor

>>49692689
unfortunately wakarimasen got nuked so you can no longer explore the threads that responded to this when it was first made. It's basically a compilation of all copy pasta FUD that was posted when AVAX dumped to $9 after the double mint.

I guess I can humor you and just point out some really easily disproved lies
>AVAX logo stolen
lmao see pic, figure out which company stole it first
>chainlink memes
there is heavy cross-over of linkies because LINK and AVAX are both IC3 coins. AVAX's first exposure to /biz/ was because of an interview between Sergey and Emin
>it seems Avalanche does not even support cross-subnet transactions(lmao)
X, C, and P all are technically subnets and have swapped AVAX tokens from the very beginning
>all subnets are permissioned = centralised control
simply wrong, subnets are permissionless by default, but can be created as permissioned if the subnet designer wants. They can even run PoW if you set the parameters to that, designed to be customizable to the extreme.
>non-history preserving consensus, DAG storage could be wiped out by bug, no longest chain rule
I think this fud was originally made to criticize FTM because it doesn't apply to AVAX at all. currently all nodes are archival nodes, only the x-chain is a DAG, and the longest chain rule applies to P and C. Also finality is absolute anyways on Avalanche consensus so longest chain rule doesn't even matter.
>validator IPs are explicitly locked with staking power
flat out wrong, validators are locked to security certificates, IPs can change or be dynamic. plenty of people run nodes from home on dynamic IPs

>>49691342
scam
>>49691440
correct
ETH is king

>>49691160
What about stellar?

They seemed to have made real world penetration with MoneyGram and coinme

>>49693632
>Doesn't even have a whitepaper
>Outright admits to no real reasons the blockchain should have value outside of 'it'll have hype'
>Calls me stupid for doubting another project designed to siphon money from dumb and greedy people to Richard
lmao

>>49693763
Stellar?

>>49691276
I’m offended that there is no ROSE
But, gives me time to slurp

>>49693856
Stellar Blockchain with native token XLM

They seem to actually be having a far real world penetration compared to the so called projects OP mentioned.

>>49693763
did not have a big 2020 bull cycle but stood the test of time and fundamentally impressive, projects like that should and eventually will outperform flavor of the month tokens particularly when the SEC decides to make a legislative move on defi tokens and such

Solana is the most contrarian pick, so I will go with Solana. /biz/ is always wrong

>>49694009
I know, it was frustrating.

Which was why I downsized my xlm stack from 100k to just 40k and invested in various stellar Alts.

Basically buying the projects that are being built on top of stellar.

>>49693675
>disproved

>>49694009
>particularly when the SEC decides to make a legislative move on defi tokens and such
I am interested in what's going to happen from the space once the SEC vs XRP thing is done. If the SEC 'wins' on that one I can see them immediately going after multiple blockchains that all did ICOs and the exchanges (within their jurisdiction) that hold those coins/tokens

>>49691440
>>49691512
>>49691928
> retards
>>49691559
this is a fair take, but given the hostility towards KDA from others im assuming it will moon
Not one person who has a strongly negative opinion of KDA has ever been able to explain why to me.
I will wait

>>49692580
lol I will larp as a women online to alienate angry normies away from KDA

in all seriousness if you cant say something geniunely bad about KDA (besides an underdeveloped eco system) then get outta here. As the ecosystem is slowly being built.

>>49693571
it's a scam anon

>>49693917
The last few weeks have been delectable and scrumptious

>>49693571
You see what?

>>49694317
eth solano cardano all of these fucking l1s
ARE HOSTED ON AWS AZURE AND GCP
WEB3 MY ASS ITS A LAYER 2 ON TOP OF BIG TECH
icp is the only true blockchain

>>49691559
Solana and Hedera bot. Stfu and fuck off. Thanks.

>>49694367
>all of these fucking l1s
>ARE HOSTED ON AWS AZURE AND GCP
Not every single one

>>49694402
This inflation is out of control.

>>49694410
yes they are lol
you can't host web3 on big tech
it's no different than amazon choosing to delist brands and create their own version of them
they will remove api access to anything they deem a threat

i repeat - every single smart contract platform other than icp is at the mercy of big tech

>>49694548
The internet computer will save us?

>>49694548
amazon's managed blockchain is going to be whatever they create or partner with
they'll dump every other crypto when they can
platform risk is getting way worse and icp is the fix for that

>>49694430
Audible kek

>>49694294
>I was just pretending to be a troon :^)
after KDA crashes to zero I'm going to buy you at an Istanbul slave market for 0.001 AVAX and make you my concubine(male)

>>49694577
what do you mean save us
the web is completely fine with web2
but once devs have an option to not build on big tech take a guess as to where they would rather build on - the open internet or the closed internet?

there's no point in developing on eth/solana/avax/etc. if amazon already exists

>>49691512
the ethlet fears the avax chad

>>49692197
hmm

oh my god were so far from the bottom

>>49691160
>chainlink
>polkadot

hedera hashgraph, KEKdano, chia(??) kekdena, what the absolute fuck none of these shit coins are going to survive, REPEAT AFTER ME 99% OF CRYPTOS WILL NOT SURVIVE 5 YEARS

>>49694830
Avax will go to $1 and then fade to nothing during this bear market.

>>49695188
Chia and KDA shouldn't even be in the picture honestly, both are such massive scams that no major exchanges even list them lmao.

>>49693785
Are you an actual retard? The only thing a smart contract has actually been used for is farming rugpulls and NFTs, every coin's value comes from the hope that they will do something else in the future, so Pulsechain is still going to be a winner

>>49695298
Nevermind KDA actually got on binance In March 2022 apparently, and it's still going to 0 lmao.

>>49695300
>Eth fork
>the future
It's retards like you shilling these blatant scamcoins that are killing this market.

>>49694294
slow as fuck (30s block time 3 confirmations multiplied by however many chains you need to cross), centralized mining pool, shitty meme language no one uses. DOA. No I will not reply to your copy pastas.

>>49693571
What this cuck >>49694367 isn't telling you is that ICP isn't actually permissionless unlike most other L1s. At the consensus protocol level it relies upon permissioned nodes. Couple this with the fact that network can also basically only be run by server racks in a data center, it's extremely centralized. The entire network is governed by the NNS, of which dfinity and VCs own a majority stake in meaning they can boot you with a 51% vote.
Defi is nonexistent because the asynchronous nature of the IC virtual machine means that atomic transfers are difficult/impossible.
The IC is also limited to only 500TPS per application at best which is wholly inadequate for applications shills try to sell you on e.g. twitter (thousands and thousands of tweets per second). Think of it as a cooperatively owned AWS general compute solution that is considerably less powerful, more complex, potentially as or more expensive depending on I/O ratio, but has some duplication/backup functionality built in as a consequence of being BFT.
The idea that entirety of "web 3.0" will live on the IC is asinine shill material, reality is it may be useful for hosting things like defi front ends or political dissidents concerned with censorship and whatnot but that's about the extent of it.

>>49694830
desu no other explanation to put Avalanche at scam tier

But too many people hate avax for whatever reason and crypto is dumb so i don't have any expectations despite buying a small bag of ETH/AVAX/ATOM recently

>Algorand not in OPs pic
>Algorand will kill them all
Poetic

>>49695956
Came here to post this. Everyone sleeps on Algorand and that just makes me so much more bullish

>>49695785
>you're a cuck therefore i'm right
eth allows anyone to spin up a node at the cost of relying on cloud for storage and comptuation. dfinity has specific node hardware requirements which allows high speeds and negligible fees for users. it's obviously less decentralized since not anyone can be a node operator.
news flash: the end user does not give a fuck

independent node operators are at the mercy of the NNS - run by a PROTOCOL (hence the name internet computer protocol). the percentage of dfinity and VCs stake has been decreasing ever since genesis and will continue to do so.
no decentralized network starts out decentralized, didn't think i had to point that out but there you go
DeFi already exists on the IC, as token standards are created, volume will tick up exponentially

why did aol/compuserve/microsoft information superhighway lose to the internet? because developers didn't want to build on private networks
why would you want to build on aws/azure/gcp if you could build on a public network? Completely interoperable services can be created with hardly any platform risk. if you really think developers would rather build on aws than a public network that's a midwit take. see it from the eyes of developers/users and it'll make more sense for you

>>49695785
Why would anyone use ICP as a frontend? What actual advantages would it offer over say AWS? You would just be swapping Amazon for the Dfinity foundation who are just as bad if not worse.

>>49695274
>>49695298
>>49695406
the instinct to counter trade retards like you is making me want to buy KDA and Chia now

> chia
fuck off retard

>>49695785
>The IC is also limited to only 500TPS per application
yeah, the current state lol
thousands of node operators are waiting to get onboarded, and it's theoretically infinitely scalable as long as there are people who have hardware that meet the requirements. social media and messaging already exists as well, you seem wildly out of the loop with the ecosystem. i'm guessing you haven't taken a look since genesis

you invest in something that has extreme potential, not something that's already built out and at the end of the s curve. nothing is perfect when first starting out

>>49696065
You being a cuck is irrelevant to whether I'm right, I was just pointing out you're holding heavy bags of Dom's Piss kek.

The point of ETH (or AVAX or what have you) is that most people can participate in the operation of the protocol ensuring decentralization so that they have a reasonable expectation that their financial transactions will not be censored. Wow cool, you ignored that aspect of crypto entirely and built a centralized permissioned cloud compute. Without decentralization the network is in a much worse position with respect to the law as well e.g. DMCA, copywrite, IP, etc.

Most other networks don't provide a protocol voting mechanism capable of censoring transactions kek. It's harder to decentralized token stake the more centralized it is to start with, especially with how much was given to VCs and their entry.

There's what? A single actually functional demo DEX? After an entire year from mainnet and being in development since 2016-2017?

I literally told you why someone would choose AWS over IC, nothing you said refuted the technical limitation's I pointed out. It's not performant, potentially way more expensive, more complex, less flexible, and you can be shutdown if 51% of NPCs using the network don't like you. Back end infrastructure choices between cloud compute solutions is not at all equivalent to your private vs public analogy regarding the early internet. And tt's not like the IC can't interact with the regular internet kek.

>>49695956
>>49696014
That pic having shit like Avax, hbar and whatever the fuck chia is but not algo is the most bullish signal I've ever seen.
Wagmi frens

>>49696625
you're terrible at fudding your own bags
nice try though

once again, you are fudding the current state of the ecosystem. you absolutely can not fud the future

> thousands of node operators are waiting to get onboarded, and it's theoretically infinitely scalable as long as there are people who have hardware that meet the requirements. social media and messaging already exists as well, you seem wildly out of the loop with the ecosystem. i'm guessing you haven't taken a look since genesis

>>49691160
There will be multiple. I don't know what chia is. Replace it with fantom which I think has a future. Or drop SOL. I think SOL needs to fucking die. Doesn't do anything BNB doesn't do and it's shit and keeps dying.

I don't know what the future is so i have a bag of everything since when bitcoin pumps most things pump with it eventually and it enables me to jump into their ecosystemif I need to.

>>49696122
Yes, it's marginally better if Bezos doesn't like you though.

>>49696373
Tell me how IC plans to meaningfully scale their serial throughput faster than that, I'll wait. It's potentially infinitely scalable *horizontally* sure. That does nothing to solve the fact that the IC cannot deal with web 2.0 app volumes and doesn't have a a realistic path to achieve that.

>Demo Apps
Nobody uses that shit, there is basically no load on those applications, they're just there to sucker in midwits.

>>49696692
The future doesn't exist yet you moron, who's to say your bagholder vision is what's going to occur. I pointed out the flaws at a tech level and the consequent miniscule levels of adoption. Every shitcoin shill says that their chosen bag is going to have a huge vibrant ecosystem in The Future(TM)
>charleshoskinsontweet.jpg

>>49691440
Ada is soi shit with no dapps

>>49696709
SOL is better than BNB, which isn't saying much, but its lack of EVM support is crippling. Probably wouldn't be talking about it here if it weren't for Sam's pump squad and marketing team.

>>49696132
>declaring ETH already won the L1 war is retarded

Do it, I want you to go 50/50 KDA and Chia. Retards like you should lose all your money.

>>49691559
>SOL
>speed
lmfao

>>49691928
this guy gets it

eth is to l1 what bitcoin is to crypto.

imo eth will not be going anywhere for a long time. whether you like it or not.

>>49691160

>>49697381
newfag spotted
eth runs on aws, it's a L2 lol

>>49691160
Most likely L1s to be the most popular are ETH ADA AVAX in that order.
Secondary chains would be DOT SOL BSC
Wildcards KDA CKB ROSE
Niche Chia algo hbar

>>49693856
Probably not
https://sites.google.com/view/stellar-analysis
>>49691160
Avalanche and Solana. Ethereum will stick around because of Solidity but it's already been outcompeted. Not mentioned here is Atom, which has really low transaction fees, high speed, and good development. The others might do one thing better than ethereum but nothing that great. Avalanche can add new networks that replicate those extra features. The last network that's interesting is Radix, yet to release full mainnet.

>>49696742
>>49696789
this is the last time i'm responding, you sound like a 40 year old shitposter that married the wrong woman and hates his life. grow up and stack piss

> The Internet Computer continues to grow exponentially, with 4,300 nodes planned by the end of the year, so the transactions per second (TPS) of a single subnet will be multiplied by the number of subnets created. For this reason, there is no limit to how far TPS can go.

>>49694294

got a small bag of KDA but i don't bank on it . they dont even have a good dex.

>>49697539
eth runs on aws
ada runs on aws
avax runs on aws
dot runs on aws
sol runs on azure
bsc runs on aws

cant do web3

>>49697539
Cardano is fucking garbage you faggot redditor

>>49691160
Vechain is the best layer 1 blockchain and the #1 enterprise blockchain, serving many gov institutions and fortune 1000s.
blockchain as a service is the future dont fall for the shitcoins

>>49697688
where can i get that extra strong crack like you are smoking

>>49691559
Good takes but kadena, chia, hedera and other lesser known L1s are dead because of no ecosystem. I dont know if dot or cosmos bridges this gap, but until you can just swap between chains flawlessly the other l1s wont take off. Sure price could go up due to speculation but ecosystem is the main factor in growth.

>>49697757
Also nobody even talks about bsc who arguably had more volume than eth at one point. That is probably going to be a decent play.

>>49696892
Something that goes down as much as SOL cannot POSSIBLY be better than BNB and it's laughable to assume it is

>>49697978
No, it's definitely better than Bsc, which ran all transactions through 14(?) nodes. Bsc is the shitcoin casino.

>>49697664
Normies and redditors LOVE cardano. It may be popular just for that reason.

>>49698038
Who gives a shit? They're both centralize shitcoins. Just because one is a centralized shitcoin with better tech doesn't mean anything if it's down all the time.

>>49694430
Kekw.
Still would though.

Hedera is the only viable one. Its ecosystem is starting to expand rapidly with HBAR foundation allocating hundreds of millions of dollars just for that. In fact, HBAR foundation alone has allocated more than what Ethereum foundation, Polkadot foundation and Acalanche foundation has allocated combined

>>49698102
but it's not down all the time. what are you talking about
Solana made the tradeoff of iterating faster and getting the 99.9% of transactions through fast and cheap in exchange for needing higher end hardware and faster development iteration. Compared to eth which costs $100 to send $1 it's a good tradeoff.

Aergo is definitely a sleeper Layer 1. Definitely keep your eye on this one. There is a lot coming.
https://www.aergo.io/

>>49691559
what about djed pegged to cardano and the coti integration?

every l1 in op is future vapor ware

>>49695298
>>49695406
When people ask me about crypto nowadays I say it's not crypto it's literally 2-3 networks that will provide automation via smart contracts and it's basically over for every other coin aside from dot, link, eth and btc + xmr as a digital currency
I remember turbo redditoids basically frothing at the mouth over shit like Golem, yeah golem might take off but it's too niche and won't be worth a thing until the wide decentralised infrastructure can take off, it's the FAT thesis you want to invest in the few protocols that will capture and facilitate the most data and traffic and the winners are all but decided. No cucks, no business is going to throw away the development they've sunk into ethereum to go to a 3% "faster" network like fagdano, it just ain't finna happen fr fr

>>49691160
all the ones you posted on the image aren't going anywhere no matter how many haters are behind it.

>>49698483
>No cucks, no business is going to throw away the development they've sunk into ethereum to go to a 3% "faster" network like fagdano, it just ain't finna happen fr fr
what about 100x faster, sub-second finality, 99% reduced operating cost(gas fees), and they don't have to throw away any development because it's already running EVM? sounds like they would be a cuck not to switch.

>>49697664
>>49698077 this is exactly my reasoning. Normies love it. It has staying power. It has enough R&D to stay relavent in the coming years
>>49697590
So what do you want to use instead?

>>49691512

Already won L1 war
>ETH


Do you know many people using Netscape today?

>ICP isn't actually permissionless unlike most other L1s. At the consensus protocol level it relies upon permissioned nodes.
Nodes approved by the NNS shortly; highest performance blockchain needs a filter
>Couple this with the fact that network can also basically only be run by server racks in a data center, it's extremely centralized.
Nakamoto coefficient of 26 and rising; it's one of the most decentralized blockchains
>The entire network is governed by the NNS, of which dfinity and VCs own a majority stake in meaning they can boot you with a 51% vote.
I thought VCs and Dfinity were dumping and it was going to zero? You can't have it both ways
>Defi is nonexistent because the asynchronous nature of the IC virtual machine means that atomic transfers are difficult/impossible.
https://support.dfinity.org/hc/en-us/articles/6080909704212-Asynchronous-DeFi-on-the-IC
>The IC is also limited to only 500TPS per application at best which is wholly inadequate for applications shills try to sell you on e.g. twitter (thousands and thousands of tweets per second).
TPS and performance constantly improving. The best engineers will solve the hardest problems (they've already solved many).
>Think of it as a cooperatively owned AWS general compute solution that is considerably less powerful, more complex, potentially as or more expensive depending on I/O ratio, but has some duplication/backup functionality built in as a consequence of being BFT.
And is still significantly better than whatever shit layer 1 you back and shows more promise than any other solution
>The idea that entirety of "web 3.0" will live on the IC is asinine shill material, reality is it may be useful for hosting things like defi front ends or political dissidents concerned with censorship and whatnot but that's about the extent of it.
Be prepared to be made a fool of, but I'm sure that you're used to that by now

>>49699944
>>49695785

>>49691512
>ETH
>inflating gas before biden
kek hngmi