/biz/ - Business & Finance

Kek is this guy ever right about anything?

taking advice from this guy is like taking sexual advice from a virgin

>>4892594
He's right though. You know he is.

>>4892564
50% of the time he is right all the time

>>4892664
nope. this is just what jews want you to think

>>4892668
made me lol, ty

>>4892522
If they were really planning to short why would they announce it to the world.

>>4892750
Nobody announced anything, it was just Jim Cramer who said it.

>Cramer

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am tempted to take out a $100k loan and dump it into BTC

>>4892777
Checked and kek'd!

Praise Kek!!

>>4892522
Always do the opposite of what Cramer says

>>4892564
He actually predicted the stock market crash in 2008 one year prior

>>4892522
Futures trading doesn't effect price at all and all contracts are settled in cash.

>>4892759
But everyone's expecting it. Wall st is smarter than the public, they don't do what the public expects. If they were that easy to predict they wouldn't have jobs.

Do it faggot

>>4892839
>Futures trading doesn't effect price at all

>>4892759
But he's their mouthpiece. He's like the Anderson Cooper of finance.

>>4892522

>(((they))) short bitcoin
>btc pump is too strong so (((they))) go bust
>cryptos cause another financial crisis

screen cap this

>>4892828

>>4892828
He was hyping it up before it crashed.

>>4892828
>people on biz predict every crypto crash in existance days in advance

>Hey guys ITS TOTALLY GOING TO CRASH NEXT WEEK! CAP THSI!!!

That's him. Except IRL

Like WS isnt in. Fucking retards.
THEY WANT YOU TO SELL! DONT YOU GET IT?

>>4892522
Historically, when pseudo-experts proclaim impending death for bitcoin it rallies to yet another new ATH. Bullish as fuck.

>inb4 "cramer was right all along" when btc ""crashes"" all the way down to 30k in January

>>4892880
BTC is only pumping because (((they))) are pumping it.

>>4892880
cute little autistic neets thinking they stand a chance against big boy money lol

Bitcoin is the Most Powerful Bank in The World.

>>4892903
You have literally no idea what you're talking about.
He wasn't just blindly saying "LOL IT'S GONNA CRASH"
He named everyone that turned out to be responsible for it ONE YEAR in advance

>>4892777
What did Kek mean by this?

>>4892880
>(((they))) are then bailed out by our tax dollars
>the tax dollars (((they))) will take from our gains when we """cash out"""

Murica.

>>4892864
Nobody is buying or selling bitcoin in this situation, so yeah it doesn't.

>>4892907
>THEY WANT YOU TO SELL
lol, do you think they care about hodling shitcoins?

>>4892945
kek, wow, what a prediction

>muh major financial institutions are going to cause a market crasshsh!!!

Wow. Not alot of people saying that every year
Claiming legitimacy because someone called the '08 crash would make you the laughing stock of the office :D

>>4892959
it's a reflection of sentiment that reverberates back into market participants, if dip buyers start seeing huge futures dumps instead of confident buying matching their own, they might feel less confident.

>>4892935
Gonna love seeing cucks like you squirm, squeal, kick and scream while crypto takes over the economy and forces banks and states to either become competent or be replaced.

What a time to be alive.

>>4893001
You're a tool and no one likes you.
There. Now you don't have to spent hours pacing your apartment trying to figure out why you have no friends.

ah yes mad money. I rember my father watching him on the tv every day while trading and i was a child, those were the days

>>4893014
Hows that working with bitmex shorts? If anything we love seeing shorts get rekt.

>>4893014
Yeah but I don't think anyone who has been buying and selling this shit really cares what Wall St. confidence levels are. Hopefully they all short and get rekt.

>>4892522
>"They've been waiting to short it to you"

good

>>4892522
I can't wait. Bitcoin is catching on the mainstream but in all actuality the thing is a fucking dinosaur. 2018 will be year of alt coins.

>>4893034
>OH YEAH! WELL YOU'RE A POOPY FACE!
Nice one mate. I work in finance :) I'm not just a retard like you. Stay poor.

>>4893057
>>4893064

>>4892522
>says increasingly nervous wall street person for the nth time
Greenspan declared BTC irrational. Yet it just keeps on rolling.

>>4893099
Were in wave 1 nigga

>>4893141
-t. just signed up for bitmex and placed 100x long

>>4893141
This delusion is mind blowing

>>4892864

>hey guys my $500 bet on the superbowl will affect what team wins

>>4892522

Why should Wall Street destroy BTC if they could make much more money with an exploding hype?

>>4892828
Every time I listened to this fuck I lost money. He is a quack faggot.

>>4892903
Cramer is a retard shitposter expect he has a national tv platform

complete clown

>>4893099
If by the 18th bitcoin is 30k, then yes you should probably short.

Right... Tell me that's not wave 1. Make another chart to show im wrong.

>>4893244
oh yeah because the people trading on CME are small time normies like you and me
fuck i'm comfy having cashed out way more than my principal from this absolute diarrhea-fest

can someone tell me who is opening a futures market? anyone got a link?

>>4892879
He's the Dane Cook of finance.

>>4893262
CME launches December 18th, may be postponed

Who is launching on December 10th?

>>4893262
>betting on price is the same as buying an asset

Do you even know what a future is?

>>4893308
CBOE
already existing in the unregulated market are bitmex, okex, bitflyer, bitvc, 796 and moving into the regulated market is cryptofacilities

>>4893312
strawman, please refer back to >>4893014

>>4892679
hi pajeet, still pretending to be the "friend" of white man?

>>4893329
see>>4893064

if there is people who hodl for all eternity there will always be some sort of value, specially if you hide parts of the currency that lost its value due to some people cashing out

its just a scam, all of it, nobody but the pajeet will be happy

>>4893329
December 10th is a Sunday
How's this going to work?

>>4893349
you must have not been here all year. the major bull run kicked off with the ETF shit in march, the prospect of proper regulation and big institutional buyers entering the space - from wall street. it has been the argument of the crypto community for years that it needs regulation to grow, it's what they have been lobbying for behind the scenes if you are too much of a brainlet to notice

>>4893378
seems to start trading on monday, contract details can be found here http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures

>>4893372
Fiflthy no-coiner we'll see who's the real streetshitter in a few months.

THIS IS IT
if wallstreet thinks like this theyy willl get squeezed and margin called to death
THIS IS OUR CHANCE, BIGGEST WEALTH TRANSFER FROM WALL STREET CROOKS BACK TO THE PEOPLE
DONT MISS IT

>>4892900
dubs dont lie

he actually had a buy on Bear sterns I think 2 or 3 days before it fucking sank into shit literally Bear sterns went down to 0 and he had a buy on it.

>>4893435
What does that have to do with futures effecting price action dumbass?

>>4892522
Cute if You ask me.

>>4892522
Where will you be when fiat is kill?

But really, what a time to be alive, imagine a bunch of neets and obese autists driving lambos and meming on hookers while they get their dick sucked for .0000001 bitcoin? What a fucking time.

>>4893531
because the institutional money has already been here for years and years, and now they're in big. the price is a puppet that can be dragged up and down to the benefit of everyone betting on the regulated bucket shop. yes, this has happened for years, but now you're opening up your assholes to the billionaires to do it to you too in totally above board ways.

>>4893486
I hope you're right, anon.

Stay strong, hodlers

You know, when someone says they're going short on futures, they're just agreeing to deliver the good backing the contract. They're not literally shorting bitcoin.

I mean it works like this: I look at what Bitcoin is doing, and decide if it's 16000 now, it's going to be 17000 on some date. Being the wily Jew I am, I offer a sell someone bitcoin at 17500 on a given date. Someone takes me up on that and pays me 87500 with the agreement that I will pay the fair market value of BTC at closing. If I keep my money in cash, and BTC barrels to 20000, I have to make up the 12500 I didn't get from the proceeds of the contract. But I'm a sneaky Jew, so I turn around and use that 87500 to just buy 5 Bitcoin for 80k. Now, no matter Bitcoin does, I can sell the 5 I bought to cover closing and pocket the 7500. The only way anyone loses is if the buyer bought at higher than what the price ends up being, or if I'm an idiot and don't secure the underlying and the price rockets up.

Bottom line, all futures are doing is letting you bet on the price on a given date. It basically lets you make money on the price action of Bitcoin if you don't want to actually hold Bitcoin. There is potential for this to blow the fuck up, but only if sellers don't secure Bitcoin to cover what they're selling and the price rockets up, or buyers get fucked because sellers manage to manipulate Bitcoin in to a crash. The only money that will be made here is off people too dumb/afraid to figure out how to buy actual Bitcoin.

TLDR: the price of bitcoin is going to shoot up as the short end of futures covers their asses, buyers end up happy they are on the winning end, sellers collect their premiums, and everyone wins. Well, until some dumbasses can't cover their obligations, but where that breaks down is up in the air.

>>4893486

hail Satoshi

>>4893659
Well that could be entirely true and if it is the price should parabolic up once more before the 18th a which point they'll all sell and short, while betting on futures. That's a lot more beyond mere futures trading though.

>>4892664
My dad watches this guy regularly.
He has 0 understanding of what bitcoin is. He compares it to stocks sometimes.

>>4893486
this needs to be the meme
Can >>>/biz/ out-meme >>>/pol/
Could toppling US financial institutions outweigh memeing in a President?

Stay tuned. I for one love watching shorts get tight.

>>4893757
Come to think of it, this is going to necessitate some sort of BTC clearing house for futures writers so they can trade BTC themselves without having to deal with the exchange bullshit us normies have to deal with.

This stuff is going to moon so fucking hard.

>>4893757
>but where that breaks down is up in the air.
and doesnt have any affect on pricing, right?

>>4893790
i agree that it would end with an exit pump but i don't want to be around for the blood, i'm just happy i was able to get out plenty even if it was way below where the market currently is. i just want a nice comfy market back but i doubt those days will ever return, maybe it's time to move on to 3rd world infrastructure or something.

>>4892857
90% of wallstreet traders LOSE money

>>4893862
I agree, that's why I bought yesterday
Anyone not buying this dip is going to look like a fucking pink wojack on Monday

when you short something, you're betting the price will go down. if it doesn't, you lose.

but after shorting it, how will they manipulate the price in order to succeed? by selling all their btc?

>>4893792
Cramer is the laughingstock of Wall Street. He is only good for entertainment and introducing you to stocks, but you should only invest after DYOR. He’s an old dog that can’t keep up with what’s new to his era.

>>4894026
>everyone on wall st will 100x short on bitmex

>>4892522
how does this fuckface still have a show, youre better off reading tea leaves or rating your shit in the toilet for predictions than listening to this clown

Someone posts this every single fucking day. And it won't affect the price of Bitcoin one bit.

The Big Short? More like the Big Dip, amirite?

>>4893031
If you fucking think small biz would transfer to virtual instead of paper, you have to have your asshole ready for the old school black market's dick.

How can you crash a market with futures when there is so few people willing to lent you bitcoins? A big short can only happen when the institutional money borrows from people who have the the underlying assets and I don't see how this is gonna happen with the userbase of bitcoin since they're just hording it.

>>4893757
I don't follow. Why would anyone pay 87500 just to profit 12500 (or did you mean 2500?) off the current price?

>>4894148
> what are credit cards

>>4894292
>Why would anyone pay 87500 just to profit 12500 (or did you mean 2500?) off the current price?
maybe the person on the other side of the trade thought it would go higher than 20k? that poster is just using 20k as an example.

>>4892522
Thats why i and other have taken half of our bitcoin and switch to lightcoin see there not trading lightcoin on the exchanges on the 10th & 15th this is why this chart looks this way

>>4893486
It will take a cooperation amongst normies, us and literally everyone not invested heavily into banks to win.

>>4894292
Well futures are going to be trading at a spot price where the market says "this commodity will be at that price on that date, so I'll sell it to you at what is basically that price plus a small premium". If someone thinks the price will be above that but don't want to buy actual bitcoin, they'll buy a futures contract thinking it will be worth more than they payed for it. The slippage there gets a bit narrower, because I wanted to make a point with easy to follow numbers. Futures usually sell at (current price + premium) with the premium being so the seller can profit and to cover actual projected growth. You can tell how bullish something is based on comparing the current price to the futures price. It's really not any different from what Coinbase does, which is basically selling Bitcoin at a premium and which doesn't actually get delivered until your account clears a week later, and in the mean time you've watched fair value shoot past even where you bought in at.

But I mean you'd buy a Bitcoin Futures contract if you didn't want to deal with the bullshit of actually managing bitcoin, which is a big thing because at the end of the day, all someone needs is your private key to take everything you have, where current banking has layers of permissions and regulations.

>>4894292
>he thinks the institutions don't already own millions of bitcoins.
They can crash the bitcoin market whenever they want.

>>4892522
ok these articles are starting to smell like bullshit, wy he ufuck would you announce your strategy like that? theres has to be some 4d chess shit here

>>4892522
In one way I kinda hope it will crash and burn. Cause it would only mean other currencies are going to boom. We're to far in this game for BTC to take everything with it. XMR would be safe.

>>4893926
STOP TEMPTING ME WITH THIS BULLSHIT.
I SOLD OUT AND I HAVE TANGIBLE CASH WITH SOME FUN MONEY LEFT IN BTC.
I DONT WANT MORE STRESS

>>4892959
>>4893014
>>4893244
>>4893312
How is it that none of you retards realize that if futures prices are driven below the price of bitcoin people will sell bitcoin to buy futures instead? FFS the major exchanges would probably start shorting it and buy futures contracts.

>>4893486
Go look at the discussion page for any worthless penny-cap stock on yahoo finance that has been in terminal decline for years and
is about to go bankrupt and you will see retards talking about how there's going to be a short squeeze that will send them to the moon. The fact is shorts are probably going to hedge their bets with options contract or simply not bet enough for it to be an issue. JP Morgan is worth 3 times the market cap of bitcoin. Do you really think they'll be squeezed so easily?

>>4894624
thought the same, this is everywhere now

>>4892564
Problem with people like him is everyone holds him to a higher standard of being right rather than objectively looking at his position for what it is, just a fucking position on something. No one is always right, but he knows a thing or two about how the financial markets work.

>>4894599
That's a dangerous game to play though, because all it takes to wipe you out is for someone with more money to come along and buy all your shit and then push the price up further.

I mean if someone has the grand idea to dump 10 billion shorting bitcoin to make 50 billion off contracts, you have to ask what's stopping someone from taking the other side of those 50 billion in contracts and then pumping the price with 20 billion?

>>4894684
>How is it that none of you retards realize that if futures prices are driven below the price of bitcoin people will sell bitcoin to buy futures instead?
Why the fuck would anybody do this?

>>4894776
Financial institutions arguably have an interest in crashing bitcoin.

When does it starts? Sunday?
Will you be shorting BTC like me?
https://www.bitmex.com/register/toYHiE

100x leverage short, NO BRAKE TO THIS TRAIN BABY

This means a short squeeze is possible. Price will EXPLODE up.

>>4894684
Thank you. These investopedia experts haven't read up on arbitrage yet. Dunning-Kruger in effect.

I would not want to be holding Bitcoin over the weekend. No fucking way.

>>4894786
Because the futures contracts are cheaper than the bitcoin now but they will be the same price when they expire. You make more returns than you would from bitcoin no matter what the price does. Isn't that obvious? Did you not understand that futures expire and money is transferred according to the actual price of bitcoin?

>>4893486
What the fuck? You honestly think some BTC nerds can hold a candle to their sells? They'll wipe the fuck out of every order book we got.

>>4892522

>shorting something makes the price go down

makes me think

Do any of you hedge this shit with puts, like ever? Or what.

>>4894915
Shorting does make the price go down esp mass shorting since ya know to short something you have to sell it first.

>>4894915
Are you trying to imply that it doesn't?

>>4894899
No, that doesn't make any sense.

>>4894962
you need to buy a fuck ton to do this, seems quite risky

Don't you think futures are already priced into the market? The fucking price surged upon hearing about it
If you use coinbase, you need seven days to clear so any events occurring within that upcoming week are already priced in

>>4894989
Do you understand what happens when a futures contract expires?

>>4895003
These are big dick financial institutions we're talking about. It's pennies for them.

>>4894962
If anyone shorted bitcoin up to this point, they'd be sucking on a shotgun right about now

>>4894684
Wtf and where will the BTC come from directly from miners??? Why would miners want to get paid less??

Has everyone here missed the fact that these futures will be cash settled and at no point will CME or CBOE hold any bitcoins?

>>4895024
Not who you were responding to but got a question.
Wouldn't you agree most will never make it to expiration though? I thought the prevailing idea was to settle through cash before most contracts expire. This has got to be preferable with bitcoin than actual delivery of the asset right?

Who cares normies will only get rekt my alts will pump so fucking high omg please hurry up short sellers!

>>4895074
>>4895109
kek thanks shoulda just updated the thread, I was gonna say.

>>4895057
its really not, they are publicly traded companies and they cannot just fucking risk money for the fuck of it

companies buy stable shit like corporate bonds or US bonds

>>4895109
It doesn't matter if they settle in cash. The point is they make it more profitable to sell bitcoin and buy futures if their price is lower.

>>4895067
People selling their bitcoin and exchanges selling other peoples bitcoin.

>>4895074
So the point is to just scare people when they see that Wall Street is shorting bitcoin thus they end up selling real bitcoins?

>>4893262
>400 billion in crypto's, "small market"
You know what I predict? That wall street will get their asses handed to them. Can't wait for all the liquidations.

>futures open
>people open short positions
>btc goes up
>right before delivery dump everything that has been accumulated for the past couple months (market cap has basically gone up 100b in the past month alone)
>btc drops because of liquidity issues compounded by network congestion
>pick up mad stacks

Is this what he is saying?

>>4892522
(((CRAMER)))

>>4895150
If what's price is lower? The future contract? I gotta say I just like the stability futures and options will bring to bitcoin. I don't even own it but have friends who bought in a long time ago, rootin for them

>>4894817
Arguably, but they'd rather make money off it than play the ideology game. I mean worst case, they're so interested in selling unbacked contracts that they sell bitcoin at a discounted rate, which someone arbitrages with the exchanges, driving the price down on exchanges down until equilibrium is more or less reached. That's going to burn them though because tether will fucking print out the wazoo to counter. I mean supposing arbitrage people drive BTC/USD down to match futures, Tether will print to satisfy everyone else's demand to hold a cash equivalent. Meanwhile, Tether notices its sitting on a bunch of BTC and drives the price up, so they can dump it at a higher price.

Come to think of it, that highlights where this shit is probably going to break down. If someone can actually fuck up Tether, that's where the music stops and everyone who hasn't been cashing out along the way or is holding USDT get fucked sideways as prices readjust to meet new capital inflows as opposed to our current wink-wink wash sales.

>>4895227
Yeah if the futures contract is cheaper than bitcoin you will make more money buy selling your bitcoin and buying the futures contract. So if the price of the contract plummets, its going to bring bitcoin down with it from people or exchanges trading switching over to futures.

>>4894899
>>4895024
Stupid question, when trading futures contracts with leverage do you get liquidated all the same when market moves the other direction abrubtly? or is it on expiration that it's covered?

Don't you guys want normies to buy this shit? it will only drive the price further.

>>4895380
You'll get liquidated when the futures price moves.

>>4895380
You would generally settle in cash before hand. I would seriously not trade bitcoin futures unless you actually own bitcoin though, you need the underlying asset for price protection. But hey even buying the futures alone for speculation, at least you wouldn't be a total retard like the people here suggesting it be shorted.

>>4895074
You don't HAVE to hold Bitcoin to sell a futures contract. You eliminate all the risk if you do though. That's why this is the greatest short opportunity of a lifetime. You sell a futures contract, use the proceeds to buy bitcoin, pocket the premium, and the premiums on this are going to be HUGE because of the volatility.

The reason you can't crash ANY market you want with futures contracts is because at some point you have to cover, and all those proceeds can flow right back in. I mean supposing futures push the price down by 20%. Some guys made 20%, and will be totally happy to exit the trade at that point. That's what is going to create a price floor on this stuff.

What wallstreet doesnt know is that the pro btc whales havent even begun pumping btc. Once futures and shorts start, pro btc whales will go hard and buy up every and all dip caused by short attempts, liquidating the ws jews

>>4895673
>What wallstreet doesnt know
Wallstreet knows

>>4895673
where do the BTC whales get their money from to buy up every dip?

>>4895713
Lol, yea never understood why people think they are steps ahead of tens of thousands of people who's job it is to make money and find inefficiencies.

>>4895713
Wall Street does not know. This is a new game run by the most passionate and talented groups across the globe.

>>4895773
bagholders

>>4895626
They don't have to cover because these futures are cash settled. Not that that even really matters. Even in futures markets with physical delivery, most contracts are cashed out before they expire. And even if every contract did end in physical delivery and every short had to cover, the longs would just sell the btc after.

>>4892522

The crowd is generally wrong.

Everyone has been saying futures will crash BTC. Wall Street is going to get tether'd

The fact that he is saying futures is bad makes me think we'll be okay.

>>4896026
Wall street won't be using tether at all.

>>4892522

> Bear Stearns is fine.

This guy made people who inverse him so much money it's ridiculous.

>>4896052

No shit idiot.

Bitfinex will print tether and pump BTC. The shorts will get obliterated. Wall Street will get fucked.

Just fucking buy from the panic sellers when the big boys start shorting it

>>4895957
>being this naive
Please spend just 5 minutes researching a brief history of systemic fraud in regulated financial markets. Then spend 10 seconds thinking about what is possible in unregulated financial markets.

You crypto-guys are like amateur football players playing against the professional football players. Except there is no referee in this game and no medical insurance.

But you still think the competitive advantage is on your side?

>>4895986
....

Being cash settled doesn't mean they don't have to cover. They just handwaive the actual bitcoin transaction and pay the difference so you don't cover with actual bitcoin. I mean you sell a contract, you can't just take the money and run. The clearing house makes damn sure you don't take the money and run off. A trade doesn't go your way, they start to get really pissy about making sure you can pay the other guy what you owe.

That's what I mean by what's going to cause the price floor. Some initial traders are going to sell and sell until they stop feeling comfortable selling more contracts, because they just sold a contract to a guy who's closing his position that he sold at a much higher level. If THAT guy is closing his position, is it really a good idea for you to take on his risk without anywhere near the profit he just walked out with?

>>4896026
you really think Big Money will allow this tether scam to go on?

>>4892973
>h-hehe SHITcoins, amirrrite guize!
says the increasingly nervous man

>>4895110
please dear god this

i want btc to bleed so fucking hard

and all that blood will flow to the alts

>>4896224

There will be a lot of scamming going on, but the underlying tech of BTC is rock solid and impenetrable from Wall Street shysters, let them gamble and scheme against one another like they do with any other commodities market

just hodl and ride it out

>>4896224
lel. you sound tough and real, but let me tell you something.

regulated markets are fucked with in all different kinds of ways the SEC will never think of, will never check, and will never be able to check.

The smartest people in world fuck with our stock markets all day every day. Finding algos that work, strategies that work, etc

give me a break. markets are markets, and government regulation, 9 times out of 10, does SHIT to help.

>>4896115
Exactly. Wall Street won't buy Tether, but a bunch of other people will. Honestly, this whole thing is going to keep going Ponzi levels of crazy until eventually more people are pulling their weekly cash limit out because they're bitcoin millionaires, and the fiat gates have to pay out more than they are bringing in. Which will conveniently crash the price I suppose and we hit some sort of stability. Or we see this thing hit social security levels of Ponzi and people just accept this is the new normal.

>>4896230
You close a contract by selling it if you bought it or by buying it if you sold it. You can't demand to be immediately compensated with the index value.

>>4896231
Honestly, the Tether guys are probably going to get vanned at some point, but they're operating in that wonderful grey area of printing dollars without printing actually printing dollars. I mean North Korea WISHES they had come up with this scam instead of actually printing counterfeit cash.

>>4896328

People throw Ponzi around a lot. The world economy is built off of the premise of the next generation being larger and more valuable than the one prior in order to keep the debt train rolling smoothly.

Even cold hard US cash loses value every year because the gov just prints more of it. Every form of value is some kind of scheme.

Right now, keeping your money in cash loses you money while keeping it in BTC makes you big money. Why wouldn't people continue to flood in. It's a race.

>>4896368
Where did I say that? A trader sells a Bitcoin contract at 17000k per coin. Bunch of other people do too. Price collapses to 9k. The trader buys a contract to cover and walks off with 8k.

>>4896224
This media posturing is designed to scare normies when the bear comes. (((WS))) wants to eat their share.

Expect crazier articles to come.

Also, always, always do the opposite of what financial media says. They control the damn media. How is this hard to understand?

>>4896540
It was really hard to tell what you were trying to say. If bitcoin drops to 9k people are going to think that the bubble is popping. Sure some shorts will pull out and some will try to catch the knife, but that's not going to be enough to save it. If the big players are shorting it, they're going to do it all the way. Don't expect a soft landing.

>>4896653
I'd be curious to know how "big" these players are? BTC is traded on the world market. Wall Street is not the world and what percentage can trade with CME futures?

>>4896601
>Also, always, always do the opposite of what financial media says. They control the damn media. How is this hard to understand?
(((They))) know that people who are interested in cypto know this. Do what (((they))) say this time because they're trying to reverse psychology you. You don't think you can cash out, do you?

>>4896653
Then why doesn't every other thing that you can trade with futures collapse? I mean this is Bitcoin. 80% collapses are not unheard of, you you do NOT want to be on the other side when it rockets off from that.

>>4896709

The thing about people with "big money" is that they don't take dumb risks like putting all of that big money towards shorting an asset that has shown some of the most meteoric growth in history and is fundamentally misunderstood by everyone, including economists and academics

>>4896745
Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value and and most people are expecting a collapse, that's enough to make it a very appealing short. I'm not saying it will go to zero, but 9k is way too optimistic. And if it does collapse, don't expect it to just rocket back up. It took years before it regained its value after the last collapse.

>>4896759
It's not going to take anywhere near all their money. Putting a little bit of money in a very volatile asset is no more risky than putting a lot of money in very stable asset.

>They've been waiting to short you
this is always a dead giveaway that you're dealing with a boomer with no knowledge about crypto, shorting options already exist.

>>4896856
> Bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value
Incorrect. I can buy $1000 worth of BTC and redeem it as ~$1000 worth of Yen in Japan. It's value as a reliable medium of exchange is highly intrensic.

>>4896899

Right, a little bit of money. Like $100b. And they're all going to collectively short it, not compete with each other furiously, like all other futures markets.

>>4896929
you can do the same with pepecash

>>4896856
But part of that collapse was the assumption it was dead along with Mt Gox. The fundamentals of Bitcoin remain the same. The only way this could cause a tremendous crash is if it started diverting cash away from exchanges, which isn't going to happen for the normies. Futures are a tool for wealth transfer between the exceptionally rich. Jews will rip off Jews and life goes on. The only uncertainty here is how hard they can fuck with the crypto exchange ecosystem.

>>4896930
You don't have to invest the entire market cap of bitcoin just to make the price move.

>>4896902
Other methods of shorting are not liquid enough for big plays. Futures markets allow for more money in contracts than the entire market cap of the asset.

>>4897080

Just stop responding to him. He's fucking stupid.

He's just trying to FUD because he sold his BTC. That's what happens when you sell.

>>4892777
FUCKINF TRIPS. DOIT! kek demands it.

> ITT blind leading the blind
think a little bit beyond shorting... futures have many other applications. Shorts will be open, longs will be open. Fuckers screaming "Duuuhh they gonna short you and shit" don't understand how modern hedge funds operate

you cant short if the normies dont sell

>>4897112
He's got some good points, and it's a nice exercise in making me think about everything that could happen.

He could be right and this shit collapses hard, but then it's merely a question of how hard and what does the recovery look like?

>>4897193
Thats the point. Their transcations are all pending. They'll sell when their BTC is available... at 4k.

>>4897174

The beauty of a free market is that there is no such thing as coordination. If enough people try to short it, there will be incredible value in going long, and someone WILL ALWAYS fill that void.

Because MONEY.

>>4897220
Let them short it
we'll just jump over to LTC

>>4896902
>shorting options already exist.
Do you think Wall St. will move their BILLIONS into 'reliable' exchanges like Bitmex or Bitfinex? Obviously not. They're just waiting for a regulated (read: safe) means of shorting.

>>4897112
I've got a strangle on some bitcoin related stock options. I'll make money if it makes a big move in either direction.

>>4897080
Arbitrage will bring the price on the exchanges to the price of the futures. I don't think the normies will hodl after what they thought was a sure thing blows up their face and everyone tells them the bubble is bursting.

>>4897312
Funny enough the shit exchanges will still seize up and eat people's money while the future market will flow smoothly. Once again, the rich get to do things the easy way.

>>4897312

>Wall Street is REALLY CUNNING and ahead of the curve and the rest of us are dumb money
>but they're too afraid to touch big exchanges and need a baby wheels commodities exchange to do anything

BTC is going to dump hard in the next 7-10 days.
BCH will do well like LTC and BTG

>>4897398
Doesn't matter. The normies can hold like the rest of us, or rush to cash out and die by their buy-high-sell-low strategy.

>>4897398
You’re an idiot. That’s the only explanation. Do you not understand that options are I herebtky leverafed as our futures. The price of the future is never the same as the price of the underlying asset because future have expiration’s and a mandate to settle. Honestly you’re level of stupidity hurts me.

>>4896224
So you’re saying get out of btc now?

>>4897426
Bitfinex could vanish with your monopoly money at any time and get away with it. Professional investors don't need to take that risk, especially when they are managing billions and have the government constantly on their back.

>>4897426
Well, yeah. Why trade on MtGox when you can trade on CBOE, where the dollars are real and you don't get fucked by a hamster wheel server overseas?

>>4897312
>wallstreet guys spend days of TA and research
>they short
>bitcoin starts a random pump again because fuck you
>millions of wallstreet kikes get absolutely BTFO

>>4892828
Woopdy doo. Lots of people predicted it. Lots of people also predicted other years of stock market crash. Just because a person got it right, it doesn't mean he's smart. It just means he got lucky. No one can time the market. Take that as a rule in life.

>>4892777
>reddit goes all in

>>4897505
Did I say options aren't leveraged? Do you know what a strangle is? It's a position that's only possible with options. I have no idea what you're trying to say with that. When an asset is difficult to store or transfer instantaneously, futures prices can vary a lot from spot prices. But with bitcoin arbitrage is easy so that won't be the case.

>>4897496
Normies are skittish, I don't think they'll jump back in so easily.

>>4897654
>spend days of TA and research
This is not about TA and research. TA is for small fish. It's about hedge funds that have massive amounts of money - hundreds of billions of dollars - that allows them to easily move bitcoin prices however they want to.

>>4897764
but wouldnt that be market manipulation ?
using your fuckload of money to move the price
just like pump and dump but youre doing it alone

>>4896328
nobody actually needs to buy tether for the price to pump from it.

I know we are still on "muuuhhh shorting" but I ask everyone to use the ol noggin (i know, big ask). Here are a few hints
> a financial instrument is created to serve a certain demand. Do you believe its shorting?
> HEDGEfunds
> Futures lead to swaps, swaps lead to another quite popular financial instrument.
> Do you think the endgame is "lets fucking destroy this thing before it gets too big with our big, collective, juicy short"?
> Might some of it have something to do with this being a section 1256 contract and taxes? hmmm
> HFT is the bread and butter of most firms right now, now heres an underlying with notoriously hard to track/determine prices. I know, lets short it right?
Anyhow, not here to educate so wtf do I know right

>>4897069
pepecash can be directly converted to/from fiat in Japan and US? And what does pepecash''s value have anything to do with anything else?

>>4897999
>Do you think the endgame is "lets fucking destroy this thing before it gets too big with our big, collective, juicy short"?

They want to short it now because it's overbought. Once the price returns to sub 5k, they will long it. It's not about destroying bitcoin.

>>4892522
>Be coiner
>Go to cafe
>Buy cup of coffee for 32500 sats (5$ USDT)
>Lady at desk tells me price has changed to 33000 sats
>Pay for the cup
>57 hours later the cafe gets the money
>13$ fees
>End up spending 18$ for a cup of coffee

The future looks bright

>>4897962
People sell for tether, which is the same thing.

>>4898443
Ohhhhhhh yeah I see, makes perfect sense man its actually THAT easy! Just risk it all right there, short it (but not directly of course since you cant), create so much buying pressure for big papa whale and those ~4% controlling all bitcoin addresses to dump while avoiding a big fat fucking margin call from exploitative players, then future long an underlying that might maybe recover in fucking 3 years after the mother of all crashes... yep they'll def pull this, the hollywood setup, rather than you know do what hedge funds do

>>4892679

THIS

>>4892839
Futures trading does affect the underlying. Bitcoin futures is not the only cash settled asset. Nobody wants a barrel of oil delivered to their home for example with oil futures.

>>4898641
meant selling pressure here, you get the point

>>4892522
They're not going to short it immediately. What will happen is that they will wait a week or however long it takes to make everyone feel like it's all okay. Normies will start pumping even more money in at a crazy rate and that is when they will drop the hammer.

>>4898733
Why short when they can gain more riding and pushing it higher? Benefits outweigh costs in this scenario

>>4892522

so we're basically going to get an epic short squeeze and push this to $100k about 2 years ahead of time?

>>4898757
it would take nearly 300B in new capital to double from here. or they could short it and create panic in the form of government regulation dropping the price 80% overnight. if you think the US isnt about to crack down on this shit you are naive.

>pump bitcoin
>accumulate slowly
>futures come out
>dump it
>take out cash-settled(!) short
>profit on short
>buy in with your profits

>>4899088
Why does it cost 300 billion? Do you know how buying in the market works?

You are assuming you buy whole btcs. The new price of btc is whatever it was sold last at, no matter what proportion of 1 btc.

>>4899147
Im thinking this will happen, we'll see a lot of just up and down action while people manipulate through shorts, especially when shorts are based on a specific exchanges price. So people will be manipulating that exchanges price to make money since it doesnst take a ton of money to to manipulate the market.

>>4899203
Have you seen how little it takes for people to panic dump bitcoin? People were fucking panicking yesterday when it went from 18-15k without that much volume. Now think what a hedge fund could do to this market.

Futures will allow whales to cash out value.

>>4894905
no but not everyone is against bitcoin and there are some very big bitcoin holders and believers
also dont underestimate the buying power of the people, collectively, just needs to trigger a big Wall street corp to squeeze and we got ourselves a run.

>>4894684
comparing BTC to a worthless pennystock...wtf dude?
its not what's materialistically behind bitcoin or altcoins, but the idea
just like with fiat.

and btc/blockchain is far the better one.

>>4896253
If the alt is named tether then yes, tether will moon soo hard. Alts have only been doing well when BTC is stagnant

>>4896653
But these future markets don't create direct pressure on the real market.

>>4892750
>If they were really planning to short why would they announce it to the world.

because it doesn't matter who knows it. it's going to be a matter of volume.

>>4894366
kek

>>4899397
I'm not saying they're the same, it's the mentality of the people excited about a short squeeze that's the same. I don't think it will never bounce back, but if there is a big enough short, its going to be some time before we see it reach this level again.

>>4899430
It will through arbitrage.
see >>4894684

>>4892522

This guy literally in an interview said that he does not follow the advice he spouts on his show. And later admitted to market manipulation.

Do the opposite of anything Kramer says.

So.... Bitcoin $100k when?

>>4899762
Merry Fucking Christmas.