/biz/ - Business & Finance

the people here don't even know what an asset is.

>>4584176
Bitcoin is the future currency of Earth, which is why I'm hodling it in cold storage.

>>4584049

It's literally fucking tulip mania fueled by a bunch of millennials who think they're the next goddamn wolf of wallstreet because they got lucky.

I'm out. The gains made in btc, percentage wise, have already far surpassed the .com bubble. This is insanity & the crash will be apocalyptic.

>>4584239
shut the fuck up retard

>>4584239
Man I know some normies that have put all of their savings into BTC and Alts. Like restaurant workers. I tried to FUD them but they simply believe too much. Crash will be yuge.

>>4584239
Child we are not even at 10% normie capacity
>>4584049
Say what you really mean. It only increased by 1/3 of its value. It's all in how you word things.

>>4584202
so... you think it will be a currency and not deflationary store of value?

>>4584049
Only a few million people hold bitcoin currently.

W E A R E K A N G Z
F U T U R E W I L L C L A I M U S

>>4584279
>>4584339

>A fool and his money are soon parted.

You guys are in for a fucking universe of hurt.

>>4584342

>>4584202
You have no clue what bitcoin is right? Outdated blockchain and it will be obsolete in the near future. It's an object of pure speculation. Only newfags and normies are keeping it alive.

>future currency of earth, just lmao, gtfo

>>4584399
That isnt possible brainlet

Currency has to be inflationary

>>4584380
I don't even hold bitcoin. I hold Ethereum. Once bitcoin crashes people will simply move over to Ethereum or Litecoin rather than cash out, because they're lolbertarians afraid of having to put it on their taxes.

>>4584312

Yep. They're gonna fuckin lose it all.

>>4584049
when normies will stop treating it as tulip mania that's when you know it's a bubble.

>>4584239
You're this naive? BTC hasn't even gotten started yet. It's just now breaching the walls into the real world.

>>4584440
why

>>4584456
I have ~15% of my assets in buttcoin. I'm actually hoping for a crash so I can buy cheap and not go over my target of 20%.

>>4584420
oldfags hold btc and will buy in the event it crashes, it's newfags who think bitcoin is over and then lose all their money on shitcoins.

>>4584494

>muh "real world" meme

No it's not. When I'm paying my mortgage and electric bills in BTC, then you can tell me about the "real world".

Until then it remains a highly volatile & speculative digital asset with virtually no utility.

>>4584440

Inflation increases economic activity.

If you own $1000 and you leave it under your mattress, it will decrease in value over time because of inflation. This encourages everyone from the average normie to the biggest banker to invest their money. That means stock market investments, starting/investing in a business, or putting their kid through college.

Deflationary currency encourages people to "HODL" and not do stuff with the currency.

>>4584563
Do you pay your bills with stocks currently?

>>4584202
>currency of Earth
Try the solar system and then the universe.
you cant send USD to mars.

>>4584524
the amount of money circulating has to at least match the amount of stuff in it's country. if a small country doubles the number of houses it has, it has to print the corresponding amount of currency to buy those houses with. you can't do that with the static quantity of bitcoin.

why it should be inflationary is more complicated and nuanced but basically so people don't hoard their money. when people hoard there's less money to go around, making it's value go up, causing people to hoard more, and so on.
we learned this lesson during the great depression and the gold standard

>>4584585

>>4584239
A bubble crash happens when the commoners talk about it and intend investing in it (the golden rule in fact is, if your neighboor talks about it, sell everything and get the fuck out because everything is falling part)

>>4584380
What the fuck are these retarded unmarked scales?

>>4584619

I don't hold any stocks either. But at least with stocks you've got a piece of something tangible. There is no real world asset backing up a bitcoin. A $9,000+ price tag is just fucking absurd.

>>4584662
I actually love Eth because it's fun to develop DAPPS with. I'm under no illusion that most DAPPS are basically useless, but it's fun as fuck.

>>4584695
Stocks are a legal (aka enforced by LAW) instrument that gives you a share of ownership of a corporation. Stocks are very far from perfect, but you're exactly right that you actually own something. Bitcoin doesn't hold water here.

>>4584695
t. Boomer

>>4584524
because they fell for kikenomics

>>4584660
we?

>>4584695
This. At least gold is a tangible asset, while the gold market is probably
also manipulated, it at least has the psychological support of being tangible.
I think lacking that psychological support might become a huge hurdle for bitcoin.

>>4584752

I'm 32 fuckwit. But way to expose yourself as a typical fucking biztard who can't into basic economics.

>Muh bitcoinz is gonna be worth a gorillions cuz digital gold store of value bank killer crypto and if you disagree you're just a senile old boomer

There are more people on this board with some some financial sense than I expected.
Anyone else waiting around for the drama when this train inevitably flies off the rails?

>>4584875
I'm 50/50

Some of my friends went all in on crypto, and they're plugging their ears to my warnings. Don't want my buddies to lose their money, but I've done all I can at this point.

That being said, I absolutely cannot wait for the annoying Bitcoin retards to shut up.

>>4584913

Agreed. The BTC maximalists are just as deluded as the LINK tards.

>>4584913
I just want smuggies who think they are geniuses for tossing a random dart in an
extreme bull market to be pinked.com for years and years to come.
Hubris must be punished.

Now watch as someone will respond "t. nocoiner", "enjoy your 5% gains", "no lambo 4 u", "kek virgin"

>>4584585
Deflation at rates below average stock market value growth does not stifle growth, rather, it stifles bubble generating misallocation of capital.
Currently, the value of the stock market grows much faster than the value of currency growth, especially when the currency is inflationary like in current day financial systems.

This is in large part why every economy has experienced massive busts and boom cycles. Every time that happens, wealth gets more concentrated too.

When it comes to spending for personal consumption, it will not be highly affected by a currency being deflationary or not.

Idk if what you're saying is what they teach in econ 101 these days but it's an ignorant quarter-truth at best and a willful lie at worst.

Even the meme that "banks won't lend if it's deflationary" is wrong. Simple arithmetic and considering the way fractional reserve banking works shows that with the right interest rates it will still be more than profitable enough to lend.

There's a lot of bullshit and propaganda out there meant to make people believe that inflation is necessary.

Inflation is good for banks (encourages everyone to deposit so that the interest rate counteracts deflation) and as a stealth tax for the government on the economy, and in the case of the US, for the national economy and also world trading economy.
It is also good for the old-money megawhales that are capable of triggering bubbles built over decades due to inflation and banking policies that encourage them, and thus timing how to allocate their wealth in anticipation so they can reap massive profits in stocks and also eliminating enemy wealthy who were not prepared, like was done against several banks when the great depression was triggered.

That said, now I'm talking mild deflation vs mild inflation, not mild inflation vs BTC speculative bubble bullshit.

>>4584049
I don't see why not If it is scarce enough and lots of people are interested in it

>>4584988
hows your BLACKED.COM membership treating u?

>>4584695
>>4584817
This is good for bitcoin though, it keeps normies that will crash the party away and people who actually want this shit to be good will have fun for longer (it will crash eventually though)

>>4585046
Just saw your MOM on it

KEKD AND REKD

>>4584913
>Some of my friends went all in on crypto, and they're plugging their ears to my warnings
damn, that sounds like difficult situation. don't know if I would associate myself with a time bomb like that.

Bitcoin is a tool to extract money from retards to intelligent investors.

>>4585012

It's called utility anon. Rarity is one thing, function is another.

Bitcoin, while "rare" in the fact that no more can be created on it's blockchain, is not unique. It can be cloned - hence bitcoin cash, gold, diamond, etc. It's just code.

So then we move onto function, which again is severely lacking. Scant few retailers accept btc, it's fees are worse than the (((banks))), and it's ungodly fucking slow. Nobody is going to stand in a checkout aisle for 4 hours waiting for their farkin bitcoin to transfer.

The only thing driving it's price right now is wild speculation. It's the same shit that happened during .com.

>>4585172
but everywhere I look I only see intelligent investors...

>>4584563
I bought most of my furniture for my new house using bitcoin on overstock.

>>4584875
I kind of folllow the same idea but what makes you think the bubble will burst do a soon? And do you have any numbers like what % of btc actually is used for non speculating purposes

okay i have a serious question that has been bugging me for a while?

how will bitcoin be a currency if it's not inflationary? it basically rewards hoarding, so noone will actually use it to pay anything since it makes more sense to hold it cuz it's value will be higher later, how does this translate to being a "world currency"

>>4585245

So?

>>4585253

>how will bitcoin be a currency

It won't, and not even for inflationary/deflationary reasons. It won't because it's too fucking complicated for the average person to use in everyday life.

>>4584380
the virgin real world assets vs the chad btc

>>4584681
I work a blue collar shift work job, in a control room, and I trade a lot when I work nights. Not a single person I work with out of 20 people has ever once mentioned bitcoin.I think its safe to say once they start talking about it, its time to cash out.

>>4584456
>I have less, therefore I must risk more
>I have more, therefore I must risk less

this is fucking obvious as hell and says nothing about BTC being a bad bet for poor people. Of course we need to take bigger risks, if we loose everything it's like we can move down any lower.


I'm all in alts, if I had 10k I'd have a fat stack of ETH. But you have take different risks when you're poor as a peanut

>>4585253

Exactly. The fact that you're asking these questions is proof that it won't work as a currency. A currency doesn't need questions associated with it. It should be intuitively obvious that a currency works.

>>4585301
Fallacy

Its already reached normie levels bey8md its carrying capacity

>>4585172
I agree there's a fuckton of dumb money invested in Crypto and that's why all of a sudden we have institutional money rushing to get in

>>4584660
>the amount of money circulating has to at least match the amount of stuff in it's country

sure thats why the FED is creating infinity-dollars lmao

>muh inflation is good for the economy
>muh disaster strikes if my money actually goes up in value

no wonder the jews think goyim are mere cattle how can you be that retarded

>>4585249
I have no idea when it will burst, it could take 10 years, it could be tomorrow. but people are playing chicken with the money they put in. imagine someone going all in at a roulette table, he keeps winning but he keeps going all in. he feels like he's becoming rich but without an exit plan he'll eventually end up broke

>And do you have any numbers like what % of btc actually is used for non speculating purposes
crypto only has value as a middle man between translations; use cash to buy bitcoin, use the bitcoin to buy whatever, and the seller turns the bitcoin back into cash. the people actually using it don't care if the trading price is $1000 or $0.01, they just want to buy stuff with it. so kind of 0%

>>4585428
Go back to /pol/ you racist virgin NEET

>>4584695
After 2008, millennials are done with stocks. Why would we knowingly put money in something that is completely manipulated and controled by the elite, and destroyed the savings of half the generation before us.

>>4585468
>we
You think you are anti-elite but in reality you are just a conspiracy theorist

>>4585464
you go back to r3ddit

>>4585428
you go back to school

>>4585468

>Thinking bitcoin can't be manipulated.

>>4585190
Why do people constantly bitch about slow transactions. The longest I have ever had to wait was about an hour, and that was during the flippening a few weeks ago?

>>4585253
>It basically rewards hoarding, so noone will actually use it to pay anything

So are you saying if people got paid in bitcoin they wouldn't pay rent, buy food or do pretty much close to whatever the fuck they do already as consumers?

Or are you saying they would convert it to something else first and then pay for that other stuff (which is pretty much the same thing as spending it directly)?

How far will the "deflation makes people hide all their shekels under a mattress" meme go?

>>4585208
kek, underrated comment

>>4585526
>Why do people constantly bitch about slow transactions.

Dear God...

>>4585401
Most of the people I mention bitcoin to never heard of it or still only know silkroad

>>4585528
Theres literally not enough bitcoin to pay people wages with imao

>>4585511
Hahahaha keep telling yourself that a handful of bankers on wall street dont control 95% of all finance.

>>4585468
> da swhtocks mahket is manopolated buh cryhpto exhcnge is not!

>>4585511
Are you implying people with incentive to conspire in order to increase their wealth won't do so?
We have our own perfect examples right here in crypto the last big BCH pump, organized loss-mining caused BTC chain clogging and the measured BCH accumulation at 300-600 the preceding weeks.
6-8 of the most powerful people in the bitcoin community organized this.

Dismissing people as "conspiracy theorists" is pretty close to being willfully ignorant about how the world works, where, you know, people actually often do what is in their own interests.

There are countless of successful conspiracies in history that weren't revealed/admitted until much later that involved far more people than is necessary to manipulate economies large scale.
How many people do you think were involved in cointelpro and mkultra?

>>4584049
an entirely new asset class can and will

>>4585614
what makes you think those same bankers aren't running a massive pump and dump on bitcoin. they could own 90% of of the market and are planning a massive sell off. all of those alt coins are probably run by the banks too.

>>4585597
>Theres literally not enough bitcoin to pay people wages with imao
I hope you're trolling.
If bitcoin was worth 10 000 times what it is now, 1 satoshi would still be less than the current value of a dollar.

>>4585754
lol They are

and heres the proof. strange it never got more traction

>>4585779
Right, so the government will just one day say: Ok guys 1 satoshi is 1 dollar now, we are paying your wages in satoshi from now on!
It will never happen. Dollars will simply transfer from credit to tokens

>>4584619
a share is owning a piece of a company. A bitcoin is owning a piece of...?

Were any of you guys around and actively investing during the dot-com bubble. I really can't believe what I've seen over the past few months. It seems like this rally never runs out of steam. Does it bear any resemblance to what you've seen before?

>>4585829
What the fuck are you smoking. Your employer pays your wage, not the government. Unless your employer is the government.

Why are all of your arguments this garbage. You have to be trolling me. Wtf.

5 billion shares of Apple outstanding
Goes up 1 point in a week
5 billion dollar gain of asset in few days

when bitcoin crashes to 100 satoshis you will all be so fucked

>>4585911
Godamn Im tired of arguing with retarded kids

>>4584239
I already bought a house with btc profits, who gives a flying fuck if it was luck. There is so much money to be had in the last few years and especially right now that it is obscene.

>>4585859

I was too young (about 16 when it started) but I knew enough to know it was going fucking crazy.

The housing market, which I remember quite well, was the same thing. It seemed unstoppable but then reality hit in part because of one basic fact: You can always BUILD more houses. The world isn't running out of wood and stone anytime soon.

Same with bitcoin. No, you can't create another "bitcoin" on top of the existing chain anymore than you can build another house where one already exists. But you CAN replicate it - hence the forks and altcoins. The only limitation on bitcoins/cryptos is the amount of digital storage space available, and just like wood or stone, that too is in zero danger of running out.

>>4585911
something similar happened before, just not with a currency the government didn't control.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil

>>4584049
>an asset can legitimately gain thousands of dollars in value over a few days
value isn't gained, it's transferred

>>4586100
cool article and history
thanks for sharing

>>4585938
>>4585971
topkek

>>4584563
I used to pay for food with btc a few years ago, when it was still actually usable

>>4586203
buy $1 of seeds, grow them into produce and sell it for $10.
$9 of value gained.

lol dude check the definition of a bubble

i agree this shit is crazy... but na no bubble my dude .;... not yet

>>4584541
This desu, crash at 2.5k then buyback in for the next ride 2 years down the road.

>>4586529
>An economic bubble or asset bubble (sometimes also referred to as a speculative bubble, a market bubble, a price bubble, a financial bubble, a speculative mania, or a balloon) is trade in an asset at a price or price range that strongly exceeds the asset's intrinsic value.
what exactly do you think the intrinsic value of bitcoin is?

>>4584995
>>4584585
Both of your answers have some legitimacy

>>4585971
loving every laugh

>>4586737

Utterly unprecedented so impossible to know

>>4586393

Really? You were slapping bitcoin on a retail counter?

>>4586928
>In finance, intrinsic value refers to the value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis without reference to its market value.
>without reference to its market value.

>>4587042

So what's the fundamental final call

>>4587117

bitcoin is worth whatever people are ready to spend on it.

let me tell you something. i will never fucking sell any amoubnt of bitcoin at loss. trust me on that i will hodl till x10 x100 x1000.

that is the intrinsic value of bitcoin fellow anon. its the fact that if it fall no one will want to sell.

>>4584995
Good post.

>>4586986
Not really, even though I know some stores where it used to be possible. It was home delivery and paid online

>>4584049
>btc will never make it past 20 dollars

>>4587117
very roughly the fundamentals of a company are something like:
physical property + reliable repeat business + (potential future business * probability of success)

for bitcoin there basically is none. besides the chance you can get someone else to buy it for more than you paid. who in turn is buying because he thinks he can get someone else to buy for even more. and that cycle repeats until you run out of people willing to buy in. but that bet is mostly independent of the price; it's just a weird distributed pyramid scheme.

>>4587445
what about the fact that it does what visa and paypal do, but better?

>>4587445

A distributed, global pyramid scheme that has yet to truly hit the mainstream consciousness

so if you have spare money it is in your best interest to buy in now before you become the top part of that hill

>>4587586
Not for consumers

>>4587586
bitcoin could be worth a cent each and it would serve that function just as well.
and I haven't used them but I believe there are already there are money transfer services that are better and cheaper than paypal and without the technical confusion of bitcoin.

>>4587586
>what about the fact that it does what visa and paypal do, but better?
>but better
>better

Tell me you're not fucking serious...

>>4584049
Where are your shorts then? I mean, you're about to be filthy fucking riches right? Right sweetie?

>>4584049
You’re not gonna make it

>>4586509
You're really implying that time doesn't have any value?

>>4588966

Time MANAGEMENT has value.

>>4584563
I pay all credit card fees, utilities, phone, bank, any bills I have I pay with Bitcoin. It's already here.

>>4589037

Liar.

>>4588966
I'm implying value can be created out of thin air. yeah, I guess time can be considered a raw material in that, along with the seeds.

>>4584049
>There are real human beings who herp thousands of derps in a few dipitty doos
Whatever, faggot, go put your money in a savings account. Nobody gives a shit.

>>4584239
desu I wasn't expecting this amount of mania until 2018. I guess it is going faster than I expected

>>4584176
People in biz trade liabilities for other liabilities. It's amazing(ly downs syndrome)

>>4589266
That's the point. If time (management as the other guy mentioned) is taken into account, value isn't created out of thin air. There are certain theories that suggest otherwise, but I personally find them very inaccurate.

>>4584239
>muh tulip mania meme
WOW SO INSIGHTFUL. I haven't heard that before and it's totally not a stale-ass meme at this point.

>>4584456

>Vlad Stocks
>9 retweets
>I don't know a single rich person who has all their savings in bitcoin.

Maybe because this literal who probably doesn't know any rich people at all. Are we supposed to take him at his word? Furthermore why would a rich person ever actually divulge how much crypto they have? I have a friend whom I personally know has over 100 BTC because they told me about it years ago, but they tell everyone they lost it all because why the fuck would you want anyone to know.

Just to clarify I'm not rich, nor will I ever be rich, but I do work for very rich people because I work in a niche field. A few of them talk business with me once in awhile, this poster is full of shit, they think every rich person is a Warren Buffett type, when my experience has been a lot of them are bored out of their mind and desperate for a rush. They throw millions at startups that fail like it's nothing. Sure some are very careful, but overall it's a mixed bag.

6/10 bait for making me respond.

>>4584049
>There are real human beings who believe currency has value and not just purchasing power and an exchange rate with other currencies

>>4584380

This isn't fair since you're charting BTC from essentially it's CREATION to it's ADOPTION. Chart the value of gold from it's discovery to now, chart the S&P from it's inception to now, etc etc etc.

You retards piss me off.

>>4584563
What loser country are you in?! People here in biz always laugh about how backwards Australia is, but I repay mortgage payments, electricity and water utilities and other bills as well using a system we have called Bpay. Just because you have no use cases with Bitcoin doesn't mean there aren't any.

>>4589383
what do you even think value is?

>>4584851
t. Nupol nocoiner that then

bitcoin is the biggest meme ever.

no real use for it even after 10 years. only hype

>>4584380
>inb4 2010 is outdated

>>4584049
You realize that's the same that happened with oil, right?

>>4584380
>what is volume
the dotcom bubble were half of the index while btc total cap is less then apple shares retard

>>4585401
nope, i'm an uni student in a big blue state and the only person who heard about it was this retard playing forex

>>4585190
>Bitcoin, while "rare" in the fact that no more can be created on it's blockchain, is not unique. It can be cloned - hence bitcoin cash, gold, diamond, etc. It's just code.
If a fork ends up usurping the original bitcoin, any original BTC holdings will have been duplicated on the fork

>it's fees are worse than the (((banks)))
>it's ungodly fucking slow. Nobody is going to stand in a checkout aisle for 4 hours waiting for their farkin bitcoin to transfer.
you can accept 0 conf txs without much risk for small transactions because it's unlikely someone would attempt a double spend
similarly, with credit cards, you also have to deal with the risk of chargebacks
compared to Paypal/CCs, Bitcoin has far lower fees; I can pay $1-3 and have a BTC transaction verified within a hour, while Paypal has 2.9% fees and I have to deal with the risk of chargebacks 6 months later + a $20 fee

>The only thing driving it's price right now is wild speculation.
It already has utility for people who sell virtual goods.
-I am protected from chargebacks if I use Bitcoin
-I can use my transaction history to vouch that I have actually sold tens of thousands of dollars of virtual goods and am trusted. If I was a scammer, google results would show that my BTC address was linked to a scammer.
Bitcoin is particularly useful for this role because it is the largest crypto, meaning more people trust it and recognize its value.

Those two points aren't really applicable to normalfags, but Bitcoin is less than 10 years old. The internet was pretty fucking slow until recent times.

>>4585208
I've got a LINK to sell ya, son.

>>4589622
>Comparing a tangible and utilized item to blocks of code

Wew lad, this truly is clown world

Official /biz/ discord

https://discord.gg/t4H6zWp


https://discord.gg/t4H6zWp


https://discord.gg/t4H6zWp


https://discord.gg/t4H6zWp

>>4590131
>Shilling for external sites

Fuck off, 4chan is all we need

>>4584049
Just wait until the water crisis faggot - you'll know what value is in a couple of days

>>4584456
Replace 'bitcoin' with any emerging commodity in history and this guy sounds like an absolute idiot

>>4584312
I had a coworker that put literally MORE than all of his life saving. I've seen him before and after crypto, and after crypto he was a mess, did piss poor job and finally got fired. He also jumps ships and sold at a lost everytimes. He is 30 and a father of two. That familly is going DOWN. I tried to FUD him cause he was a good guy, but nothing helped. This craze is literally transforming people.

>>4585971
I love posts like these. CryingWojackBehindMask.png. I'm sure we will all be devastated when we are millionaires