/biz/ - Business & Finance

WHY CAN NO ONE ANSWER THIS

are we all just btc shills??

senpai please explain ;_;

how do you sell your coins with lightning if you need to lock most of them as collateral to use it?

it doesn't make sense! i don't get it, i don't get it, i don't get it.

and you can't do on-chain transactions because of the quadratic fee growth! literally $1000 per transaction is estimated by mid 2018, which was the selling point of lightning.

please explain? it looks like we're on a train heading off a cliff at full speed.

it's over, isn't it? no one has a reply. that means it's true.

bitcoin is dying ;_;

Bitcoin is dead. Long live bitcoin.

>>3674327

answer the question. some feedback, please!!

for months now lightning was shilled on this board as the scaling solution that would save bitcoin. i finally read up on it and it's only for micro-transactions, and bitcoin has no scaling solution!!!

i feel like i'm that dude in that big short movie, and everyone else thinks the market will rise forever when there's this HUGE fucking flaw in plain sight

>>3674025
You are right. Bitcoin is designed to die in 2 years.
Rip Bitcoin.

please tell me i'm wrong about this. please? if btc goes down, the entire market goes down with it.

it's over, it's over, it's over. there is no lambo ;_;

the "greater fools" are US!!

>>3674025
Fomos will find some answers... Just wait

>>3674365
The solution is literally BCH lolol. Myself and others have been trying to tell you. Inflation doesn't really matter when you account for the fact that BTC literally noe
has a virus in it controlled by banks. It was their last attempt to kill bitcoin and it backfired miserably as people didn't realize that forks are not only offensive but defensive as well. Seg2x is also going to be shit. If you really believe in Bitcoin BCH is our only option at this point. I'm waiting for the hard fork to buy some. If I catch wind of the hardfork failing I'll immediately be purchasing as much as possible.

>>3674025
thats why you go Bitcoin Cash. Which is 10MB a block so we dont have congestion problem

>>3674414
>>3674398
but bch has a different ticker.

what about the normies? they'll see half a dozen different btc forks, 2 versions of eth, and so on and think this is all just a money printing scam.

and how will the media react to the death of bitcoin? so much "i told you so" and fud, it'll hurt all crypto.

the lightning network isn't for every day poorfags to use. it's for businesses that expect lots of transactions every day in BTC.

>>3674504
The people your describing would have to be retards. You should know about blockchain especially before you invest so thier shouldnt be any of those problems. Because everything decentralized with no central authority people have to fork to change protocal. It isnt a hard concept. which is also why if you hold BTC you get the forked coin too, if you fell for shills to sell your BCC for more BTC that would be your fault

>>3674025
The limit will be increased eventually but not now in the form of a corporate decision. Such an increase will be a community decision, the ticker will stay btc. Until then, core will implement things like Schnorr signatures decreasing the bandwidth consumption per transaction even further.

Everything I said here is my own opinion on this matter since I can't predict the future.

>>3674541
i dont buy the "keep all the fork coins" strategy. what if eth flips btc because of this shit show, once casper starts eating coins and eth hyperdeflates? what happens to bch then?

i think btc dying will be good for crypto.

>>3674528
That's wrong imho. The LN is like a prepaid card. You load money onto it and use it for your everyday poorfag purchases. You don't use LN to buy a new house.

>>3674593
ETH had its own problems. See for example https://medium.com/@WhalePanda/ethereum-chain-of-liars-thieves-b04aaa0762cb..
Also the oracle problem. And the possibility that most ICOs are get rich quickly scams for developers. Furthermore, eth is inflationary.
I personally don't see it overtaking btc anytime soon.

(Just my opinion though.)

>>3674594
loading up on the card costs the full transaction fee, which core projects to be $1000+ by 2018.

>>3674554
there was 90% segwit2x community support and it's still a different ticker. any hard fork requires a different ticker anyway for legal reasons with exchanges (the original chain keeps the original ticker because of longs/shorts).

>>3674593
If btc dies, all crypto will die since nobody will trust crypto currencies anymore.

>>3674642
yes, what i'm saying is crypto is fucked!!!

WE THINK WE CAN SELL OUR BTC/ETH TO GREATER FOOLS BUT WE ARE THE GREATER FOOLS!!!

>>3674649
>which core projects to be $1000+ by 2018
Source? I really doubt that will happen. But we will see.

I don't know about these legal reasons. I doubt it bc segwit2x can't become btc if that were the case but e.g. coinbase is likely going to call 2x btc. It's coinbase going to be sued by customers left and right?

Core dev Luke was talking about decreasing the blocksize down to 250kb not too long ago too.

>>3674678
>WE THINK WE CAN SELL OUR BTC/ETH TO GREATER FOOLS BUT WE ARE THE GREATER FOOLS!!!
This will happen for most ICO coins at some point in maybe a few years. Probably not for btc since btc has its uses and most importantly its huge network and competent developers. (In contrast to most other coins. ) These two things give bitcoin its value.

Just my opinion though. :)

all the warning signs are here:

> insane growth with no tech to back it up

> politics, censorship, and propaganda destroying the community as everyone fuds and fomos each other

> every major news network is calling it a bubble

> a black swan event, the 1mb cap debate, has crippled btc

> i could only find a single btc supporter after posting this thread twice and bumping it for hours

are we all going to say it was obviously a bubble in a year after the 95% correction?

i just want to be rich, honestly, and it looks like this btc thing is just a fucking scam and i want with all my heart it to be legit but ;_;

shill me more, i still have a bit of hope ;_;

>>3674746
You do realize every major network also talks bad about trump all day everyday with no facts and no backing, it is irrelevant. btc is worth 66 sum billion compared to apple stock alone which is worth 800 billion. Most people still dont even know what bitcoin is we are definitely not in a bubble. multiple governments like BTC like russia,china, united states, thailand the list goes on. Everything else literally is digital why not money?

If you don't see the value and trust your opinion OR if you are not able to blindly trust in crypto, then sell your coins.

Also I don't think you are wrong per se. Depending on how November plays out, there is the real >0 probability that btc will suffer greatly.

I personally don't sell my coins since I'm committed to either win big or lose it all.

>>3674716

it's their reason why "larger blocks won't work." they cite quadratic growth, and how on-chain transactions won't be feasible no matter what the block size is soon. so lightning is needed. don't have a link, i'll dig it up.

but if you can't do on-chain, how do you on/off ramp or sell more than 5%? those questions seem to be censored on r/bitcoin, though i've never tried to post myself because i don't have a reddit account.

it's also sketchy how the entire original dev team of btc was fired after blockchain gained control of the repo, then shortly after we get a "scaling solution" with major flaws.

>>3674801
its just a bunch of blockstream bs because If larger blocks didnt work the 1MB cap wouldnt have worked lmfao. Even BCH 10MB cap doesnt mean all 10 MB must be filled its just the cap for no congestion. blockstream is just making bank

>>3674801

what's REALLY scary is how there's no lightning network code yet. not a single line of code.

i don't think it's an inside job to kill bitcoin, but god damn if the government wanted to kill btc this is how they'd do it.

>>3674823
i don't think it's bs. i think the quadratic growth problem is a legitimate concern.

why is it SUCH A BIG DEAL for them to hard fork to 2mb? because they lose the btc ticker. if a different group hard forks (the segwit2x team) they lose the repo too.

it's politics, sure. i'm sure there are arguments for both sides but in that doesn't change the fact that we are facing a serious scaling solution RIGHT NOW and the fees are growing RIGHT NOW. it's just not as apparent because people would rather wait 12 hours than pay over $20 and the average fee chart doesn't reflect that.

>>3674656
Highly unlikely. If bitcoin dies, it is likely that the funds will explode to other currencies which is basically the same system that you guys avoid and hate so much: The Stock Market.

>>3674642
btc was also killed by a bug when it was eth's age and did a community hard fork to revive it. like father like son.

also, eth is deflationary. the casper algorithm destroys coins and theres a 100m soft cap that turns it on.

and not just a few coins. so many that you need to stake 1000 coins for the transaction fees to cover the burn cost of staking. eth is specifically designed to not just deflate but hyperdeflate.

btc will die and eth will become the king.

>>3674801
There are four reasons for keeping the block size small for the time being.

1. Larger blocks benefit large mining pools bc large blocks need more time to propagate through the network.
2. The quadratic increase in time wrt block size. to (iirc) verify blocks.
3. The fibre network can't handle large blocks atm.
4. To not give up on the way the protocol finds consensus. The way the NY agreement was found is not the right way imho.

The first three are technical reasons, the fourth is a political one but imho still valid.

I don't think the argument of the other anon is valid that we can have big blocks just bc there won't be many big blocks at the same time. It's an attack vector and attack vectors must be avoided.

If you want to discuss more, please ask other anons, I've to go.

>>3674905
Not necessarily. As I explained before, btc has advantages other currencies don't have at the moment. But I also don't completely disagree. Nobody knows exactly what would happen.
>you guys
Also, who is "you guys"? A quarter of my funds are in stocks.

>>3674930
these are arguments against bch and btc1, not for btc. btc cant scale because fundamentally proof of work cant scale. you need proof of stake.

i really hope segwit2x becomes btc and core loses the repo, then it can scale by having real devs work on it. but that cant happen with core controlling the discussion hubs and spamming this argument against segwit2x.

its not about the 2mb. it never was. its about the ticker, security regulations regarding forking, and control of the repo.

either core loses power and ln flops or btc dies. if lightning is a success, btc still dies because it's flawed. either way seems like btc is dead.

>>3674746
Could you imagine being a hooker trying to hump that skeleton. Lol.

op here

it seems like the arguments for btc are just arguments for buying collectibles (it'll go up because of a limited supply) but there's nothing about scaling in any of them.

reminds me of beanie babies... why is btc different again? i know, i know, limited supply. like beanie babies. how are they different??

there is NO TECH BEHIND BTC. it can't be used as digital cash (use xmr for that), it's not digital gold (inflates each year more than usd), and all the "hype" seems to be for "blockchain technology" right now, with loads of btc fud.

i think if btc goes down, the entire market is fucked because we are in this to make money. even eth crashes when btc crashes, and "a flipping" just means btc crashes 95% while eth only crashes 80%.

i'm honestly scared because i hold some crypto. i don't know what the fuck to do.

>BCH miners stall mining to trigger diff readjustment
>Roger Ver amps up the trite demagoguery on twitter
>BCH shilling on biz intensifies

Standard procedure. Team chink gearing up for another BCH pnd

>>3675393
i am not shilling for bch. if anything, i'm shilling segwit2x. honestly though i just am afraid because this was supposed to be it, you know?

i feel like my dreams of breaking free to go my own way and do want i really want in life are being fucked over by core because they care too much about the btc ticker.

who the fuck cares what a coin is called? but they're willing to destroy everything just for centralized control of btc. fucking fuck.

i just, don't know what to do from here. buy eth and get fucked when btc crashes and eth crashes too like always? buy btc, and hope to hell 2x goes ok? give up and become a no-coiner?

i don't want the dream to be dead ;_;

AND ALSO THERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM!!

You will have 3 competing versions of BTC all using the same hash rate once segwit2x activates.

the hard fork will kill btc's hash rate, and make bch 300%+ more profitable to mine again. most pools auto-switch to the most profitable chain by an algorithm atm.

again i don't care for bch, but the "death chain spiral" is still a thing and never went away. it'll start happening again if btc and btc1 both survive!!

and what happens to lightning if core loses the btc ticker? no code has been written for it yet. will they STLL make lightning even if they no longer control btc?

>>3674716

Segwit results in smaller fees, it's just not adopted widely yet. Though there's more Segwit transactions than BCH transactions.

>>3675567

This is the real problem I think. I don't see a way to predict the outcome right now when BTC, S2X and BCH fight it out. Right now BCH is cucking itself and without S2X would have no future but we're faced with a chaotic system when you've got three fighting for power.

My strategy:
1: Hodl all coins, even though I fucking hate Jihan, CSW and various other cancers.

2: Follow the hashpower

3:?????

>>3675634

that's not true either! i've heard this before, but it was a linear decrease when i did actual research. so it delays the problem maybe 6 months.

i think btc will beat btc1 and we will reach $10K to $15K. but after that i think we are going into another 2+ year bear market as the scaling issues start getting ridiculous.

during this time, eth will flip btc and that's it. we're done. no way to recover from that since "anyone can just print coins, anon! i can just fork btc any time!"

it's ogre ;_;

>>3675567
>the hard fork will kill btc's hash rate

It shouldn't. You should see 2x adopt 90% hashpower at least.

Unless core weasels and hypocritical ly introduces a contentious hard fork to lower difficulty on the 1x chain there's a very good chance 1x just outright dies.

>>3675705

Not everyone signalling for 2x will mine it, at least initially - in fact a few that are signalling have outright said they won't.

>>3675335
>it's not digital gold (inflates each year more than usd),

There's a fixed cap and predictable supply. That's what's so critical- unlike the dollar, which can have its supply manipulated however an unchecked bureacracy dictates, you will know exactly how many coins will be in existence at any time now and in the future.

Bitcoi will be below the dollar's historical inflation rate in three years anyways. In eight years I'd be very willing to guess the number of coins being lost or destroyed will exceed the number being created.

>>3675705

Also being a hypocrite is beneficial if it means survival. If they don't hard fork if they need to, they deserve to die.

I'd like to see say CSW cry about them doing that when he's been quoting Ayn Rand all week.

>>3674025
>mine the original 1mb chain to steal the btc name from core.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Bitcoin. No one owns the concept of Bitcoin or the Bitcoin network. That's the entire point of Bitcoin being a decentralized open-source project- no single entity has de jure control or ownership of it. To say then that someone can take the Bitcoin name from someone implies a level of formal control that simply doesn't exist to begin with.

>>3675751
Who besides F2pool is in that camp?

OP you've obviously made up your mind so sell your BTC and buy whatever stupid shit coin you think will replace it. Enjoy being poor.

>>3675705
2x has a different ticker. it's btc1. that's already the official ticker for it (they planned ahead so there is no confusion).

core even hit up the sec to verify that long/short positions apply to the original chain in the case of a chain split. so 1x keeps the btc ticker, forever, no matter what.

that's why i think core will "win" if you can call losing 90% of your hash rate but keeping your ticker winning.

you know what we'll hear when people say "btc is dead! it just lost 90% of the hash rate!"

"the difficulty will adjust, anon! this is bch all over again, hodl!!"

WHY IS CORE DOING THIS?? DO THEY NOT REALIZE THAT TRYING TO CONTROL THE REPO/TICKER IS KILLING THE COIN??

>>3675678
Jihan and company are the one of the few people trying to break the stranglehold Core has deliberately placed on Bitcoin to try and ratchet up fees for off chain scaling far faster than for any practical technical reason.

>>3675862
yup yup. BTC gonna die bro. sooo sad. sell your BTC.

>>3675770
you don't get it man. btc won't exist in 3 years if this shit doesn't sort itself out.

>>3675862
The SEC doesn't really control or regulate Bitcoin exchanges or Bitcoin itself. The SEC also moves at a snail's pace so I'd highly doubt they issue anything binding before November if they ever do.

It might have some impact on a Bitcoin ETF but that's many moons off, if ever.

>>3675847

BTCC. Also as BCH profitability swings and their miners shift, Segwit2x signalling oscillates.

>>3675885
There already are enough solutions being implemented that the market will be capable of picking a winner. An open source code will prevail.

>>3675885
we don't care what you think, you dumb faggot. kill yourself.

>>3675926
Ok, so by a few, you mean two. So what percentage of hashpower is presently supporting 2x?

>>3675823
i poorly worded that. i mean, core can't hard fork without changing the ticker name because the original chain will always be btc as long as people, even rogue agents, mine it.

>>3675940

It's a bit more complicated than that. Signalling doesn't even mean support.The short answer is we don't know. And even if we did - it's going to be a chaotic system - we can't predict what the outcome will be.

Remember that you don't have to split your coins. Unsplit wallets will be spendable on all chains in the future. In fact I kind of wonder if an unsplit wallet might be worth more in like 10 years than its face value.

>>3675940
94.4% of the hash rate is signaling for segwit2x right this second. it's actually increasing over time.

the sec has verified that core keeps the btc ticker and segwit2x team has verified that their ticker will be btc1.

that is the state of things right now, no fomo or fud, just the facts.

the btc ticker will have 5.6% of the hash rate, and the bch death spiral is STILL active RIGHT NOW. again, no fud, just 100% verifiable facts you can look up right now.

can you see why i'm shitting myself??

>but muh eth will flip it
eth fucking falls every time btc does. the market is in a bubble, and we're all fucked.

Anyone with basic math skills would know that Bitcoin's tech is a pile of shit.

>>3676027
no one doubts this.

everyone knows eth has better tech. the problem is we are in a speculation bubble, and btc has historically, routinely dropped 80%+ multiple times after each previous bubble.

and every time btc slightly dips, alts get wrecked. so the question is: do you exit the market completely, or do you hold btc and PRAY that... i don't even know?

what could possibly happen to not fuck everyone holding right now? shit is so bad right now i don't even know what to pray for

>>3676065

I'm going to do profit taking next month

>>3676087
i'm thinking:

> hold btc
> segwit2x hype
> people buy btc to have both coins (bch gave "free" $700 after all)
> price pumps
> sell right before segwit2x
> exit market for 2 years, buy eth at the bottom

right play?

>>3676112
just hold eth. i think once btc dies eth will moon even if theres a short term hit.

no reason to fud sell eth now. you might miss your reentry because the flippening is complicated and pos is fucking huge, scheduled in 2018

>>3675977
I don't see why an unsplit wallet would ever be worth more. Now, unspent coins from a fresh block- that has enormous interest for anonymity reasons.

>>3675985
>can you see why i'm shitting myself??

I don't actually. If you're holding at the time of the fork properly you'll hold both coins.

Are you suggesting that despite 90%+ of hashpower backing 2x investor support somehow won't materialize?

>>3675985
The superior network has already arisen.

>>3676389
not just 90%+ but 94.4%+ and rising.

the sec AND the segwit2x team AND the core team have all confirmed that the original chain keeps the bitcoin name and btc ticker, forever. even if btc shits the bed and dies segwit2x's ticker will still be btc1 because of secures regulations in the us.

the thing is, bitcoin's current price isn't based on tech. it's based 100% on name. ltc is better than btc in every way but worth less because of the name and i see the same happening with segwit2x.

so yes i'm shitting myself. btc is going to die, for real. and segwit2x looks like ltc to me.

eth looks nice, but the ENTIRE CRYPTO MARKET will be hurt when btc dies.

Hi the Pain...

Lotta people dont care for mining on here... Might have luck on tech? kinda lame.

>>3674801
bo bartlet is awesome.
i remember you from some days ago.

>>3674828
what? so you mean LN is just a scam?
There where also some live LN transaction on the mainnet for example through ZAP_LN wallet !?

>>3677104
that's not what you think it is. its a proof of concept with pre-planned transactions. no code generating them.

you need software to host ln nodes, not just a few one off transactions written by hand.

just buy eth

>>3676593
then sell your cryptos and get the fuck out. we don't share your concern.

>>3674025
>f you have to lock the majority of your coins in lightning as collateral
? where did this come from
literally just made shit up

>>3679061
uh
anon LOL
do you even know what ETH's raiden network is?
because it's literally a carbon copy of the lightning network.
VITALIK is fucking copying the lightning network
let that sink in.

Is this the stupid question thread?
Mind you, I have one.
How easy was it to Bitcoin each day back in 2009/2010?
Let's say you had an average laptop (not excellent, but not bad, just fine) and a bot to click mine 4 hours a day for 100 days. How many Bitcoin would you have mined?

>>3679118
>because it's literally a carbon copy of the lightning network.
no its not. ln is centralization. raiden isnt.

>>3674025
Dumb anime poster

>>3674025
bump

>>3679118
>Lightning network, decentralized, with the transaction speed and cost of eth
Just let that sink in.

>>3679831
hundreds easily, thousands if you were dedicated and put more than just a poop laptop on it.

>>3680104
Was it possible to directly buy coins back in early-mid 2009? I keep reading conflicting information, some sources say yes others say no.

>>3680293
not until exchanges started showing up, before then it was strictly peer to peer
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd be sure to click 1w or 3d time scale

I tried a few times myself but it was way too obtuse and sketchy and only the truly adventurous were willing to buy large amounts with "real" money. Most people who did buy back then have lost it, spent it on weed, or sold after they saw the exponential increases that come with the network effect, not many people took the notion seriously that people would one day be fighting over individual bitcoins.

Stop putting nazi flags on 2d qts

>>3680464
Interesting. Another question. How did people like laszlo make 10k BTC? Was it that easy?

Would it have been feasible to acquire some 50k BTC between Feb 2009 and Dec 2010 without investing real money into it (not counting the price of a laptop and electricity bills)?

>>3680486
nazi symbol is a symbol of love for your ppl. its not a symbol of hate and never was, dont listen to the jews. they still cant get over the 1940s.

>>3680616
no

just stop

>>3680585
you're being pretty obvious about having a time machine, senpai.

>>3674025
Swap your BTC for LTC problem solved. I transferred $2k worth for $0.01 fee

>>3680637
If I had a time machine I would just go back in time and see it for myself instead of bothering a stranger with my dumb questions.

>>3680631
i will not. id post more but am not a nazi so i dont have more than just that one.

love, not hate. but i can understand if the propaganda abd censorship confuses you. you think hitler hated blacks i bet too, huh? poor thing, they ruined your mind :(

>>3680667

everyone knows what a nazi swastika means faggot
i dont care what /pol/ says it means

>>3680689
what does it mean then? it means love for your people. national (your people) socialism (love for them).

there was this anti-communist movement in the 1940s and all the jews were and still are shilling hard for communism. it was an anti-communist thing, and hitler loved many races, was an environmentalist, vegetarian, and literal art student hippie.

you know what made him flip out? watching his friends, unarmed, being shot dead in the streets as he nonviolently protested communism. at the time, all the commies that controlled germany were jews. at the time, jew and commie were synonyms (they still are, actually). he was shot too, lying there bleeding in the street for speaking out against them.

yeah, i know what it means

>>3680585
It was that easy. A laptop may have only been able to mine hundreds, but a decent desktop PC would have been able to net many times more, especially in 2010 when for a while he could mine with both CPU and GPU. Imagine how many a true believer (they were rare) back then could mine if he got a bunch of server rigs to do it on an industrial scale. A few people were.

Quickly it would only feasible to mine with GPU due to the way the difficulty scales with the hashrate. In 2012-2013 ASIC mining came around and for the next few years bitcoin's hashrate would rise from the terahashes/s to the petahashes/s to the exahashes/s we are at today. What a lot of people ignore is the sheer amount of energy use that goes into processing these transactions because of it. The bitcoin network currently uses more energy than small countries to process LESS transactions than ethereum does for less power, which will become MUCH less with proof of stake. Bitcoin maximalists are a dying breed. I'm not saying you should buy one or the other, since there are more factors to it than the ones I have mentioned, but it's clear to me what I should weigh my holdings more heavily in.

>>3680689
>>3680755
you know, sorta bothers me that a symbol of love turns into a symbol of "hate" whrn you lose the war. you hated being shot dead in the streets? too bad, you "hate" blacks now, and non whites, even though you loved and said great things about the wonderful black race at the olympics

in not a nazi, im libertarian, but i 100% support and love my nazi bros and will defend them against further censorship and violence from the fucking commies

>>3680755
>>3680808
how delusional can one shitposter be