/biz/ - Business & Finance

the first step for many of us is getting 50k just to play around with

invest in Zillow it is guaranteed to double in less than 6 months. It is a leading real estate website. It is the amazon of real estate. Their website is solid. I am up 16% in just the last 2 months. It's marketcap is so low, it has so much potential. Just today it went up 7% with no major news supporting it. If you are more conservative buy GOOG. Android is kicking apples but in the app market place and Chrome is kicking microsoft's but in the browser war.

These are easy bets

Pro Tip: the value of a stock sometimes goes down instead of up

>>293992
actually stocks tend to go up b/c inflation brings the dollar down around 3% a year

TL;DR
you are garrentieed an average 3% return plus what the market does

>>293992
This. Recently the market has been mostly bullish. I am going to lmao when all the new daytraders experience a bear market.

>>293995
>guaranteed returns in a liquid market

>>294005
returns are guaranteed relative to the US dollar b/c the Dollar losses value every day due to inflation

>>294003
if I understand the stock market in general correctly, can't day traders simply adopt a short approach in a bearish market?

I'm still reading and haven't even opened a virtual account for the /biz/ game (anyone have the information on this, btw?) and from what I've been noticing its better to short in markets with high volatility. Shorting is a highly useful tool imo, like proof by contradiction in math.

>>293959
>How is it that most Day Traders fail? Greed? Stupidity? Getting into markets without enough research?
OP, you are so smart

you will be the next Buffett!
wow
such wisdom

>>294028
>>294003
>>293959

I'm not a fan of day trading for two reasons:
1. much higher commissions. I pay 8.95 a trade, if I traded a lot I could get that down to 6 dollars a trade but still you are burning money with commissions

2. much higher capital gains federal tax. we are talking 15% compared to 0% in some cases. You must hold a stock for 12 months to get the long term federal capital gains tax bracket

>>294034
I thought the idea behind day trading was that you funnel lots of money into a few stocks you like, then sell for profit.

For example, I have $15,000 to play with. I find 3 stocks each for $10.00/share and pump 5k into each, so I get 500 shares/company. I pay $26.85 for these 3 trades, an another $26.85 when I exit.

I have to make more than $53.70 to cover my commissions?

And I'm assuming the 15% tax is just going to limit my gains, so if I make $100, I lose $15.

>>294068
Gains post-commission
If you buy and sell a stock to make $100, with a $10 commission on each end, the taxes are taken on the remaining $80

Mostly it's emotional then technical or fundamental. Surely it's easy to make a ton on paper money accounts, but once you start trading real money, your own money, you will panic.

I've been day trading for 6 years. I see a lot of people fail because they make emotion decisions too often. It's like gambling to them. They think with their head or gut instead of making decisions based on technical analysis. I've known people start with $10K and are now worth over $1M. I've known people trade $1M of their parent's money and turn it into $10K.

>>294083

That's a mistake of choosing the wrong broker. Your typical marketed E-Trade, TD Ameritrade, Scottrade, etc. suck for day trading. Pick a broker that allows per share commission and rebates. Taxes aren't hard to get past if you know what you're doing.

>>294068

Those are outrageous commissions to be day trading with. And you have no risk unit developed.

>>294083
Sorry I didn't specify. When I said "If I make $100" I meant after commissions, so truthfully I made $153.70

>>294103
I'm still learning, don't even know what a risk unit is.

>>294119

Your risk unit is how much you're willing to win or lose per trade.

>>294068
If you don't know what the fuck you are doing you sure as hell don't need to be day trading. You will be cleaned out faster than you can blink.

If you knew what the fuck you were doing you'd stay away from day trading unless you were a desperate shit with a massive tolerance for risk.

>>294128
Thank you.

>>293992
Can't you put stop sells in place to beat the market?

In OP's scenario
>Buy stock @ $100
>Put limit sell (or stop sell whichever it is) at $99.99
>If stock dips you lose, what, 20 bucks?
>If stock goes up, even $1 gets you $500
>Stay in longer, go to the moon

I'm just trying to think of sure-proof methods of how to not lose money.

>>294301

You will always lose. You're expecting a stock to increase $1 without dropping a penny? It doesn't work like that.

>>294301
>it goes down
>you lose money, plus pay sale commission
>you set it up again, paying buy commission
>it goes down some more
>you lose money, plus pay sale commission

Setting a stop loss right up to where you bought the stock is pretty dumb. If you can't handle something you bought going down in value a bit you need to get the fuck out of the stock market

>>294003
What do you do in a bear market?

Buy the fuck out of $UXVY? Buy bullish gold miner stocks?

>>294306

What is shorting

Bulls make money. Bears make money. Being both makes you rich.

>>294302
What are green candles? Who says the stock has to go down the moment you buy into them?
>>294304
I understand commissions will add up, but surely it's nothing to the possibility of losing ~$1,000 in a dumb trade if you're playing with $50,000

Why do you 1 think putting stop sells at your buy in price is stupid? What about, 10 or 20 cents lower then for your buy in?

Again, just trying to come up with different methods to beat the market and reduce loses as much as possible.

In summer 2011 I began investing and trading for the first time, I guess you could say I was swing trading. This was during the huge instability due to the european financial crisis, the markets were going crazy for about 3 months.

Basically I had $3000 dollars, I'd buy european bank ADR shares like RBS at prices close to their 52 week low, then sold when it went up a bit a few days later.

I didn't really look at the balance sheets or anything at all. My reasoning was that these banks like RBS were primarily government owned, so there's no way I was going to lose my investment; the UK would just bail them out if shit got real. I was basically just betting that the price couldn't go much lower than it was, and since the price was like half of what it was just a year prior there was significant upside potential.

My question is, what the fuck was I doing? What would you call that strategy? I feel like it was just gambling but it paid off, I made 30% returns over 3 months.

Sadly I didn't stick with it and pulled out of the market, been kicking myself ever since. Could have seen way bigger returns.

>>294322

Don't listen to common sense.

>>294322
>Why do you 1 think putting stop sells at your buy in price is stupid? What about, 10 or 20 cents lower then for your buy in?

Because then your stop loss is always going to fucking trigger.

You don't want that.

>>294322
>beat the market
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

>>294331

This is why you need risk units.

>>294329
Uh, so just rely on trending analysis?

Just rely on buying the fucking dip?

Just rely on buying the rumor and selling the news?

You're not really helping much.

>>294336

Go on YouTube and watch an Al Brooks seminar.

>>294331
>Because then your stop loss is always going to fucking trigger.
Can you please explain why?

Take for example Facebook from today.

Say I purchased at the yellow circle area. I put my stop less in at 20 cents. If the stock goes down 20 cents Im out, and I lost $15-20 on commission + lets say $100 on a bad trade.

Since in this picture my stop loss did not come into play, my $50,000 investment would have gotten me a couple hundred more $ because it never fell below my initial buyin.

Why do you think the stock will drop the moment you buy into it to make you stop yourself out?

>>294332

Just find the perfect proportion for a especific portfolio, there isn´t any min/max you can do besides that.

>>294348

20 cents is a safe stop loss. But 1 cent will always trigger.

So I have enough money to buy one share of apple. If it goes up by 5 percent and I sell, I get that extra 5 percent of money?

My brother is a financial planner. We don't talk much.

>>294348

Why do you think it won't? Have you ever entered the market before? Prices fluctuate a lot in a day.

Your entire argument is basically "well if nothing goes wrong I'll make money". If you're going to buy something, you should have a reason for buying it. If you can't handle that it might go down somewhat temporarily, then don't buy it, because obviously you don't have faith in the fundamental reason why you're buying it. Am I making sense? Stop loss isn't to prevent you from losing money, it's to prevent you from losing all your money if you made a bad call. Something going down 1 or 2% doesn't make it a bad call.


If you want a reasonable stop loss go with 1-5%. the lower end is for shorter term trades, higher end for longer term.

>>294370
Minus taxes, minus comissions, minus inflation. Yeah

>>294370

>day trading
>trading by percentage
>trading 1 share

Nope

>>294374

Also the stop loss percent you use should be tailored to the individual stock you're buying. Stocks that fluctuate a lot need a larger stop loss, like 10% even. Can't handle it? Don't buy it. Investing is a stressful thing.

I had stoploss of around 12% trading euro bank shares on margin in 2011, because of how crazy that shit fluctuated. Risky, but it made sense. I was down like 15% on my investment at one point due to the margin but I kept my fucking cool, my margin was just right and I was just at the valley of a fluctuation. Made 30% gains.

tl;dr set your stop loss well beyond any possible fluctuations.

>>294376
Why would I pay commission. I'd hit sell myself.

>>294391

Y-you aren't serious are you

>>294391
MY SIDES!

>>294410
I have a pretend stock game that my bank let me set up in my online account.

I've bought apple stock for pretend. And sold.

I also had a stock app on my phone and started with 50k and did it all myself.

Why do I need a guy to hit sell when I tell him too.

>>294420

>>294420
Probably bait, but I'm still waiting on the shit storm.

>>294428
Does that pic mean you like me?

>>294431
Not bait. I really don't see what you're on about.

Just saw a thread asking for stock simulator apps. Will look into practicing more.

>>294391
This is silly but somewhat true. Those trades are being processed though a computer system now. There is literally no reason the NYSE could set-up a system that allows any average Joe to start and fund an account and trade directly other than artificial barriers put in place by bank lobbyists of the past century.

>>294442
Well I know. I've done it on stock simulator apps and didn't have to pay someone to buy or sell on there so why would I in real life?

>>294452
Only licensed brokers (or their firm's computer system...) can trade on most financial markets.

So they get to charge you a fee, since they're the gatekeepers.

>>294455
like I said here >>294442

There is no reason other than false barriers to entry which were set-up by lobbyists. There's no legitimate reason why everyone should be able to trade commission free.

>>294455
So it's like worlf or wall street

>>294467
Opening up direct trading access to every Joe Blow day trader would be a security nightmare

>>294478
I UNDERSTAND NOW. YOU NEED TO KEEP THE CRIMS AND BADDIES OUT. CIMINAL RECORD CHACK AND SHIT.

>>294471
>Worf on Wallstreet
Somebody call hollywood

>>294028
Marketwatch search for /biz/ game password is merchant Wipe has been making many threads for it as of late though.

>>294489
How is that any different?
>Serial pedophile creates an eTrade account
>Serial pedophile buys stock in Huggies

>>294100
how to deal with the tax man, man?

>>294490
fucking kek'd hard

>>294301
you get stopped - stomped out

Because stocks don't always go up.

1. $500 on a $50,000 investment is a 1% return. That's not very good.

2. Next you're going to suggest that you just repeat this process a lot, right? Do this 50 times a day and pocket the $500 every time. That won't work because you have to pay transaction fees on every trade. You'll lose money net of fees.

3. OK, so you don't do that. You wait for it to go up a TON and sell and get a billion dollars

4. That's called investing. It's what everyone wants to do. Unfortunately, stocks don't always go up.

So...yeah

Greed and impatience.

They demand quick returns and invest in retarded shit because it's cheap and has the potential to grow. Some retarded shit dies completely, some of it goes sideways and idiots sell for small losses and some of it takes a few years to skyrocket but daytraders aren't willing to wait

>>294024
I want to see the chart on this bullshit inflation stuff.

I got an idea from gambling in Fallout New Vegas that I don't see why it wouldn't work in the stock market.

Every time you lose money simply double the shares on your next "bet", you're bound to win eventually and when you do go back to betting what you started with.

>>294691

>>293988
>Shilling this hard

>>294691
That works when you have an infinite amount of fictional money yes

>>294648
I'd be damn happy if I could make 1% a day on $50k.
???
First lets ignore the fact that doing this "50 times a day" is unrealistic, if not impossible.
$500 profit x 50 trades is 25k profit
50 trades at $10 commission both ways is -$1000.
How exactly am I not making money?
That nets $24k before tax.
Lets say $20k after tax.

If you're paying enough commission to lose more than $20k on a total 50% gain you're being robbed.

ITT: idiots
As a successful day trader I never really understood why I actually am successful, all the things I do are just logic and common sense to me
however it seems most other people legitimately lack this capability, like, wow...
I just find it weird that so many can refute logic
About OP and stop loss and such... You're on the right track, everyone saying stop loss will trigger and such are tards
Beating the market isn't about making good trades, it's about leaving bad ones before they get worse
Do this consistently and you're statistically set for success
It's all fucking math, nothing more, Jesus fuck you guys are dense

>>293995
This is true if you invest on a 30 year horizon as in between there's way too many fluctuations.

You could buy the s&p at a rly shitty moment (like now), see it drop to 1200-1400 by the next year or 2, then have to wait another 5 years just to be break-even again. Then in 30 years or so you'll be "sure" to have a 4-6% profit annually over the entire run... unless history doesn't repeat itself, which surely is possible.

Not predicting the future here but just being realistic. You can't just buy the index at some random time and expect a profit on the short term.

>>294167
Neh not true. Daytrading just relies on a lot of technical analysis and actually having the nerves to handle the fact that you're rolling a 100-sided dice with the knowledge that you lose if you roll under 45-47.

Loads of technical analysis, tons of trades with a higher chance of winning than losing (be it only a few %).

You actually have to do the proper analysis though, not just throw yourself into it and hope for the best.

>>294915
analysis, kek

You mean looking at a line graph and trying to figure out if you're at a dip or peak

Then cutting loses if things head south or selling for 1-2% return

Day trading is practically free money if you're even slightly above average.

>>294332
Pleb

>>294005
Pipe down little man. I've done it before.

Yeah, I gave away the secret. Sue me.

>>294930
A) You're just making shit up
B) There was an an actual element of risk involved
C) You had insider information
D) Henry Paulson, is that you?

>>293976
If you day trade 50k and make 1% returns every day, you make 1.8 mil in a year.

What the fuck are you waiting for? Borrow it if you have to.

>>294935
No I'm just not a retard.

It's called leverage, motherfucker.

>>294388
> Made 30% gains.

It feels like I'm on /fit/ again

I'd borrow it, but I don't cause I have 50k.

In fact, I just made $10. While you faggots were busy arguing, I made $10.

That's interest from something unrelated though

>>293959
Most people fall on the left side of the bell curve. They're stupid faggots, so they can't trade for shit.

>>294097
Only pikers worry about psychology. You either have an edge or you don't. Don't be a fucking piker. You're not going to make any gainz with 1 share. Buy 10000 shares.

Whatever happened to fundamentals?

$50,000 on one trade? You must be new here, no wonder people say it's Ferrari's at 30, bankrupt at 40! ;D

Anyone smart enough with a finance degree would see long term is the long way, but the right way to go because you last a long time.

1. Learn investing based on long term fundamentals
2. Borrow money from people, not a loan, setup your own miniature hedge fund.
3. ???
4. PROFIT
5. Now re-invest the profits from dividends etc and call yourself Berkshire Hathaway

I'm pretty confident that the millionaire space is dominated by day traders while the billionaire space is dominated by long term investors and business people.

>>294964
The trillionaire space is dominated by day traders.

50k, making 1% daily returns, yields 7.1 trillion in 5 years.

Warrn Buffet can suck it with his 15% in 1 year

Seriously, do the math. Tell me how that's not possible.

Guess once you've made a couple mil, you've made enough.

Make sure your pleb calc or programming language does arbitrary precision arithmetic.

You're gonna need it to compute day trader gainz.

*You're

>>294919
No that's not what I mean actually. Your type of arguments really don't contribute.

>>294979
>Implying that you can sustain 1% daily returns everyday for 5 years
Well if that is true good sir why aren't you a trillionaire?

Name just one day trader who is a billionaire, just one. You'll notice the richest men in the world are long term investors. Try reading a book lel~

>assuming this isn't a troll and you're just a bit "slow"

>>294691
Annnndd then you run out of money or the company goes under. topkek

this thread disgusts me more than anything i've ever seen on this board.


even the idea of stops is retarded because you clearly don't know how they work. you aren't guaranteed to sell at the price of the stop, even if the name is pretty liquid

>>293959
if you think you can always make successful predictions you haven't even started trading paper yet

>>295030
Why are you saying stop sells don't work?

>>294936

>implying its that easy to make 1% gains every day

nigga, if you got 1% profit for every working day in 2014, you'd earn 251% this year alone.

Even Warren Buffett struggles with reaching 20%.

>>295207
The guy was trolling (I hope) - don't feed the madness!

>>295201
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Stop calls work, but they don't lock in a sell price equal to what you bought. You can't expect 0% downside, which was implicit earlier in the thread with some posters.

>>295227
*stop sells. My b.

>>295227
>You can't expect a 0% downside
So why not put your stop sells in at 10 cent lower than your initial buy in?

If you buy in, your -10 cent stop sell triggers, you lose, what, 0.5% of your portfolio?

If you buy in, and your 10 cent stop sell doesnt trigger, you can potentially get 1-10% in a single day.

>>295308
Because the market can just hit your stop, then go up 5%. And it almost certainly will, because market makers are jerks.

>>295201

because some time the market gaps and your shitty broker misses the stop loss, unless you wanna play extra for fucking 'GURANTEED SUPER STOP LOSS TM' that all brokers try to sell to you to cover the added risk

>>294370
My brother is a financial planner. We don't talk much.
>my sides, fuck

>>293959
Daytraders use leverage. For example if I put up 50k and I get 5 to 1 leverage in buying power from a broker then I have $250,000 in money to trade.

Daytraders fail for a lot of reasons - greed, not being able to pull the trigger, lack of emotional discipline, jumping into something they don't understand, overextending themselves and putting on too big a position, being stubborn when wrong instead of getting out, and just not knowing what the fuck they are doing.

That is why so few people actually do it. The mentality you have to have is a winning one where you don't beat yourself up after losing but are opportunistic yet aggressive enough to keep playing. If you are good or when you are good, it is like you are on a wave and just along for the ride because you feel like you are plugged into the market.

>>294028
>implying that calling yourself a day trader means you automatically know when an equity market is going to decline.

Theres a reason not every person is a billionaire

>>294028
Calling a top would have slaughtered any account last year, despite the endless signs. Its not so easy

Trading seems so fucking easy until you actually try to do it, with some size. putting on a trade on a sim account and risking say.. $30k of your own money on a trade are COMPLETELY different things. To put it simply.. unless you have been in the seat, pulled the trigger a bunch of times you basically have no idea what trading is about. You learn it by doing. I used to trade on the floor of the CBOT and have been trading on the screens now these last years.. even if you have all the technology a top shop can provide you its still hard as balls. anyone that tells you otherwise is bullshitting you or they are just trading nickels.

>>296315
Haha I just made 153 dollars today on a simulator with 20k. Tell me again how this is hard.

>>296411
>simulator
>youll do it with your own money
you wont.

>>296414
Why wouldn't I. Facebook google apple Netflix Samsung are all safe bets. They will always bounce back if something happens.


When the market goes shit, throw some brushed chrome on that bitch

>>296424
then do it. stop preaching about how you would do it. Nut up or shut up.

>>296431
Stop replying to an obvious high schooler/troll.

>>296424
all talk... no action to back it up. very typical, very boring. try to buy anything with those sim dollars yet? im sure the sim girls love you.

>>296442
They don't know it's a simulator when I check it at a red light. They ask me what I'm doing and I say I'm seeing if my money is working for me today like it does every day.

If anything it shows them I'm ambitious and am in the stock game. She tells her friends. I look like a God.

>>296424
>Facebook google apple Netflix Samsung are all safe bets.

the typical american investor ladies and gentlemen. Apparently speculative industries (often with tons of debt!) are considered "safe".

is there anybody more greedy than americans?

>>296459
What do you invest in?

And my user id changed cuz I had to go off Wi-Fi.


Would the sex industry make good profit? Like pornography and sex toys.