/biz/ - Business & Finance

This is a poor year for being a smalltime landlord though.

>>28185325
Maintenance.

>>28185325
Where are you going to live before you can afford to pay for a house?

Now I know someone will come here and say that if you rent a house, you can invest whatever money you save from maintenance fees. But do a quick calculation

Maintenance fees are max 1000 a year. Investing 1000 a year is nothing. Paying 800 a month on rent every month is a lot more.

>>28185428
You get a mortgage. These days getting a mortgage requires a small initial investment, which you can save up working just a couple of years (unless you have a shitty min wage job)

>>28185395
Damn straight it is, some coworker college Student about to get his masters went in on a venture to buy a 500,000 property for rentals
>aaand then covid hit
>no one paid rent after they moved in
Fuck that guy, he was a libertarian who puts financial gain over societal morality anyway.
>meanwhile I’ve made 140k profit on stocks in the same amount of time

>>28185475
>Maintenance fees are max 1000 a year.

lol

>>28185475
You’re retarded, it’s clear you still live at home and have no idea how the real world works.

>>28185325
>>28185546
I would need to pay 20% of the total amount to get a mortgage.
I've been working as a software engineer for 3 years while living home with minimal expenses and still only have the half of it.

>>28185325
what would you do if feds raise interest rate?

>>28185325
>buy house
>rent house to other people
>take already limited housing supply off the market
>handrubbing.jpeg
You're literally a kike and I rent because of a thing called opportunity cost.
>>28185475
t. retard who doesn't even own a house
>>28185546
>small initial investment
>20% of $500k is $100k
really made me think
>inb4 FHA
Good luck getting your 3.5% down offer accepted when someone is coming in with 50% down and going $30k over asking
I swear, half you niggers either don't own anything, bought 10 years ago, or live in some podunk midwest/southern town where a decent place only costs $100k

renting is actually a better financial decision than owning a house.

houses increasing in value doesn't matter as you'd make more with index funds, and rent money does not cover taxes + interest + mortgage + repairs like you think it does.

>>28185325
Because this is a financially irresponsible approach which means if your tenant doesn't pay rent, you can't pay your mortgage. All you're doing is shifting your own financial instability onto the renter. If there's a rent/eviction freeze, you are FUCKED

>>28185325
People only rent because they can't afford the down payment yet. It's like life's first big class barrier. You trickle money up until you can afford to keep your own money.

It's a microcosm of why billionaires exist. They cross a threshold where the already accrued money either makes things cheaper, or simply self-replicates.

It makes no sense to rent over buying, but until you have that $40k in the bank to slap on the table, fuck you buddy, pay someone elses mortgage.

>>28185325
I don’t qualify

Even when the mortage is paid off you'll still be wallet raped for propety tax and council tax. The house will always be owned by the state.

>>28185325
>take the loan
>its easy
>everyone's doing it
>youll beat the banks at their own game

>>28186014
Wow logic on /biz/ no way

>>28185635
I've asked several landlords for figures. How much do you think they are?

>>28185780
Forgot to mention I live in a country with a financial system that allows young people to afford a house using various benefits.

>>28185933
Sorry forgot to mention I live in Europe.

>>28185997
Void periods already taken into account.

>>28186014
>>28186119
Ah so half of you say that renting is a necessity (not a choice) and the other half say that renting is actually financially better? So which is it retards?

>>28185561
I bought a house for 160k in January 2020
It’s now worth 275k
The mortgage is only $1100 a month including taxes
The market rate for a 2BR/1BA unit is $2200.
I paid about 30k down to earn 115,000 + (12x1100) = 128,200k/30k= 427%

>>28185325
>Why not buy your own house?
'Cuz I'm highly mobile and I don't know where the fuck I will live 1 year from now. I've also lived in Airbnbs for stretches of time.

>>28185946
>index funds
what a fucking meme I wish I never fell for
>>28185795
>fed raising interest rates
lol don't count on it
>>28185997
There literally is a rent/eviction freeze nationwide right now and a good amount of states already have very favorable tenant laws. It can take over a year to go through the court process, sometimes landlords will pay a tenant to leave just to get them out and start collecting rent again.
Landlords have had it easy for way too long and I'm actually to see some of these over leveraged swine who use the infinite money meme get exposed.
>>28186014
>it makes no sense to rent over buying
In a lot of cases it actually does. it's a bad practice to paint with such incredibly broad strokes.
>>28186198
Maybe on an average yearly basis but that is averaging years where they had to replace a roof and a hot water heater with years all they paid for was a plumber to unclog a drain and landscapers to mow the lawn.
You may also have a bias if you live in an area where all the homes are recently built and in a fairly moderate climate versus someone who lives in a place with very old homes built 100+ years ago and very harsh climates.
>>28186288
>which is it
It depends on the situation.
I am paying $800 a month, including utilities, while living with roommates very close to where I work and lots of other conveniences.
For me to live in a similar place, assuming no roommates It would cost me over $2,000 a month excluding property tax, water, and upkeep as well as a $100k down payment.
I've made over 200% just from $50k invested in crypto. Why the fuck would I put $100k into a place that costs time and money to operate and yields a minimal return comparatively speaking?

>>28185428
in your car duh!

>>28186676
>Maybe on an average yearly basis but that is averaging years where they had to replace a roof and a hot water heater with years all they paid for was a plumber to unclog a drain and landscapers to mow the lawn.
That's exactly what I meant. Amortisation is steady but repairs come in lumps, giving people the illusion of being expensive. If you save up steadily you'll be fine.

>I've made over 200% just from $50k invested in crypto.
This is like a lottery winner telling people to play the lottery. Don't assume your crypto gains are any more the result of investing than they are luck in gambling.

>>28185325
Lookup original meaning of mortgage kike

>>28185325
>Why don't the poor plebeians just use their capital to make more capital?

>>28186288
Sorry you forgot to mention you live in europe? Yea well sorry isnt good enough bud. I assumed you were american already as everyone should assume online. And i need you to bleed red white and blue soldier!

>>28186676
>Landlords have had it easy for way too long and I'm actually to see some of these over leveraged swine who use the infinite money meme get exposed.
Don't you have some gamestop to buy commie?

>>28186676
What's wrong with ETFs?

>>28187035
So you're saying the only reason people rent is out of poverty?

I had the money to put a down payment on a house but instead i rented and put the down payment into link. Now i can buy the house im renting 8 times over.

I used to live in Monterey CA.
Average mortgage payment for a house there: $3000.
Average rent for an apartment there: $2000
Rent I paid because I was looking for a deal: $1500.

I would have been paying $2500 a month on interest alone if I'd bought, whereas I saved $1500 a month out of pocket renting. It's all about your local area and housing/rental markets, stupid.

>>28186847
>lottery winner
Yeah dude, I just spun a wheel that said 'bitcoin' and liquidated all my other positions that I could liquidate at the time to go all into one. It's not like I spend time every day researching and learning about markets and the macro economy as a whole. Totally just luck bro.
>they come in lumps if you save up you'll be fine
And if you are barely squeaking by because you over leveraged yourself to afford a house because they are so outrageously expensive you aren't going to be able to cover one of those lumps.
I'm sure I'll end up buying a place one day but the play isn't real estate right now. That was the play from 09-12
From 2012 until today the play has been crypto
I do not view a primary residence as an investment I view it in the same category as buying a car or a sofa. If you look at as an investment class then you need to compare it towards other investment classes, and while the financing options are usually very favorable that doesn't automatically make it the best, and with good financing terms comes higher prices.
Homes can theoretically go up in price forever but as long as wages don't follow in lockstep there will always be a demand for cheap housing therefore I am not worried about getting priced out of living all together. $1,000 rents aren't going anywhere and as the world becomes more virtual the options to move to around become easier, whether domestically or abroad there will always be ways to 'hack' your cost of living.
I prefer the mobility and the ability to move in and out of investment positions easily. Nothing wrong with owning a home just don't make blanket statements about why it is or isn't superior to renting as everyone will have different situations.

>>28187272
>commie
Maybe you should read the 25 points of the NSDAP you reddit fuck
>>28187276
They lag a lot of other investments and most ETFs that get shilled are too broad and weighted in megacap companies to see any real upside. Volatility is your friend in the investment world if you can stomach the swings.
If you're going to hold them might as well go for the 3x leveraged options at least but will still lose out to crypto during this bullrun.

>>28186288
I did a quick shitty spreadsheet a few weeks back while looking at exactly this. Numbers were based on a $339,000 condo I was looking at buying with a $50,000 down payment. Included taxes, mortgage interest, and building maintenance fees, but obviously not personal maintenance shit like my fridge breaking or toilet clogging. Compared it to the rent I'm paying for a similar condo unit.

Each cell on the left is my net worth each year. Current savings of 36k + income - rent/mortgage - other monthly expenses * 12

TL;DR Buying plays out better long term, and pays off better the faster you can pay down the mortgage. Big question is whether you can take the $4k savings per year, and invest it in a way that gains you more than the property + it's appreciated value. Assuming a 2% appreciation on the property, in 25 years, a $340k property would be worth $557k, and if you had been renting you'd have saved $100,000. You keep more cash in your pocket to play with if you rent, but renting never stops. You're footing a monthly bill til you die. Once you run down a mortgage, it's all in the green and it only takes a few years past the end of the mortgage to start catching up to the "renter".

>>28185325
I live in a foreign country and have no intention of staying.

>>28187895
where do you live that property taxes are so low?

>>28187895
Your spread sheet doesn't factor in opportunity cost though which is one of the main reasons for people to rent long term assuming they have the option to buy.

>>28187606
>Yeah dude, I just spun a wheel that said 'bitcoin' and liquidated all my other positions that I could liquidate at the time to go all into one. It's not like I spend time every day researching and learning about markets and the macro economy as a whole. Totally just luck bro.
That's what everyone who wins in high risk strategies says. Survivorship bias here.

>>28187895
I actually did the same thing and calculated that in 30 years time I'd have 1,600,000 via buying a house and only 1,200,000 via renting. This includes raising house prices, which you have forgotten (set this to 2% per year).

>>28185325
people are retarded and either ruin their credit, or are too consooooooomerist to save a down payment. they also want to live 'IN DA CITY YOOOO SHEEEEEIT MUH NIGGA SUP DAWG' and pay 10x what they would for a house 20 minutes away, because they're zoomers/millennials and again, as i said, retarded.

>>28188091
It's only high risk when you don't understand what you are doing. When you know what factors make something risky then you know how to navigate that risk. I know what makes bitcoin risky, I know what makes it valuable. I know the market cycles, and I have an exit strategy. Keep coping though

>>28188199
>>28187895
Oh sorry you've actually done that. Didn't read the second paragraph.

>>28188205
Imagine choosing a $1500 a month rent over an $800 mortgage just so you can walk to Earthfare instead of driving. Sad.

>>28188241
>It's only high risk when you don't understand what you are doing.
So 50% of the traders on wall street don't know what they're doing?

Sorry but this isn't about finance, it's pure psychology. You're the one coping. Property is a safe investment, crypto is a meme.

>>28185325
>15 years average to pay off house
>can't easily move if you want to
>not worried about changing careers/jobs bc muh mortgage payments
>no property taxes / repairs / utilities with
if you set yourself up properly renting and save you don't have to worry as much, can be more flexible and can still get good returns

>>28188332
>active trading is the same as going all in on one trade you feel very confident about
Keep coping and staying on the sideline

>>28185946
so the landlord will cover this for free because is a nice man?? i see

>>28186014
I'm buying my first home this April with a 1% down payment. Graduated last may.

>>28187843
I'm considering ETFs for a very long term investment (pension). I'm looking 25 years ahead so that's I think ETF is a good fit

>>28188035
Vancouver BC. Hadn't done a lot of comparative research when I made this spreadsheet, but apparently we have one of the lowest property tax rates in the country. A $340,000 in the GVA has an annual property tax of less than $1000. Can be as much as quadruple that in other cities across Canada. Your mileage may vary. I have no clue what the states are like in that regard.

>>28188089
Well the "opportunity cost" is represented in the greater net worth on the renter column. It's the last half of the comment I wrote above. On a 25 year term, I'd be $100,000 wealthier in raw cash, that I could use to do with as I please. Could I turn that $100k into $600k in another way? That's the big question. Opportunity cost isn't tangible.

>>28188679
how do you get a 1% deposit? it's 20% min here and starter homes are 300k+

>>28185325
>he cant save a deposit (even on high american salary)
>his parents didn't help him out with his deposit because they never loved him or planned for his future
renters maxium cope. 99% of renters wished they had a mortgage

>>28188679
wow has this started again, apparently they used to give out stuff like this before the 2008 crash, or even 110% mortgages on the basis the value would simply keep increasing. I hope all these home owners get fucked. Owning homes contributes nothing to our society

>>28188947
>Owning homes contributes nothing to our society
Neither does owning dogecoin lmao

Be me
>33
>net worth: $405k
>buying duplex in Milwaukee for $185k
>moving from Minneapolis. Priced out and BLMed out of this market.
>15% down
>$1100 monthly payment
>current tenant pays $730/m
>can easily cover payment (without tenant in other unit) on either my wife’s or my salary
>wife can work remote indefinitely
>I’m finding out today if I can work remote indefinitely as well. Worst case I should be able to through end of 21.
I’m making the wise decision here right bros?

>>28185325
Who’s going to rent from you if you just told us renting is retarded?

>>28189055
I'm not letting a house. I'm paying mortgage. What I'm telling you is NOT to rent because half the time you're paying someone else's mortgage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9keQagt350

buy condos

>>28189217
??? Can you summarise the video?

>>28185325
Are you telling me the rent is the same price as amortization + interest?

Down payment.
/thread

>>28186676
Western Central banks seem content to sit at near zero interest rates

>>28188989
lol i don't own dogecoin, i'm shorting it. shorting it helps society since the people buying it are misappropriating precious resources. same way that scamming idiots works, they are only going to lose their money on wasteful things, so it is better off with you

>>28189352
Rent is the single most expensive thing you will ever pay for. Interest, repairs, maintenance, duties etc will NEVER amount to monthly rent fee. Otherwise landlords wouldn't exist.

>>28189335
watch from 6:20 to 7:28

>>28189217
The fuck is this dingus on about?

> "People think that rent is a liability, but it's not, because you can walk away at any time"

Walk away to fucking where bud? Homelessness? Mom's basement? Camper van?

This whole video is him spouting off like paying rent is optional if you don't have a mortgage. "Ahh just don't worry about it, you have freedom! You're not obligated to any one or any thing!". Except that you need a roof over your head and you're not going to find one without paying rent or a mortgage so pick your poison.

This one is good too. But if you think anton is a dingus... maybe you won't enjoy it as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXOHks84L5s

>>28186288
Much jew
Such kike
Wow

>>28185946
i have a friend who still lives with his parents, and they have rented a house for 20 years. The landlord now decided that he is going to kick them out and sell the house. Renting sucks because in the end you are not the owner, you have nothing. I can see why you would do it in the short term though.

>>28186847
>This is like a lottery winner telling people to play the lottery. Don't assume your crypto gains are any more the result of investing than they are luck in gambling.
this speaks volumes on what you do and how you do it. Just a retard using his dick to poke into the dark.

>>28188928
So you admit that if your rich daddy dosent fork out the dough, you'll never own a home.

If owning a house is so much better why don't banks buy all the houses and rent them to people instead of giving you the means to buy one?
Checkmate

>>28188928
>daddy payed for my shit, he loves me
no, he is helping a fucking retard as much as it can because he knows the retard will fuck up and needs to own a cardboard box to live when he is gone.

Get a grip, get a job and stop being a burden to your family.

>>28185325
>Dad die
>get the house
>house up 50k in 4 years

Comfy

>>28185546
I live in the outskirts of a major US city and the average house here is 700k. I cannot afford that

>>28185325
>>28185325
OP is correct and everyone that disagrees is a rentcuck.
>Inb4 b... but you can make more in index funds
You have more money to invest in the line run as your monthly outgoings are much cheaper if you own. You can even let out a room in your apartment that covers the entire mortgage.
>Inb4 b... but maintenance...
Total meme unless you buy some dilapidated 50 year old wooden shack.

t. owns 3 properties

>>28186619
This. Also, whorehouses, brothels, and motels have decent rooms that I can rent for a week and they're cheaper compared to commercial ones.

>>28188947
The bubble has only gotten worse, and now every field is ready to pop.
They needed to authorize 50% of all USD ever in existence the past 12 months just to prop things up.
They are handing money out just to buy up things at outrageous prices to keep the illusions up, while trying to export more of the effects outside the nation than ever while the world drops support for the dollar and the fed's soft power has evaporated.

>>28185421
>implying your tent doesn't cover that and my wage
We're adding $10 a week to your rent next month. Thanks for paying my mortgage.

>>28185933
>or live in some podunk midwest/southern town where a decent place only costs $100k
Every time someone posts their numbers this is the case. They live in a state with zero property tax where a decent property is under 300k.

I don't feel like living in the same place for over a year or two

>>28185997
>over leveraging yourself
Or just don't be retarded?

>>28185946
Kill yourself

>>28189691
Just have your family or a tribe member give you a place to stay and another to rent out for free, along with some interest free loans.

>>28188679
>>28188767
>>28188767
>>28188947
Holy shit a 1% deposit, are you paying like 10 times the cost of the house over the payment period? Is this how the economy ends?

Because owning a home in America is pure suffering. It's better to just take the L and rent until you can move to a country that doesn't rape homeowners in the ass and force us to live near section 8 shitholes.

If you're rich enough to consider home ownership you should also be considering moving to a country that actually appreciates you.

>>28191189
The interest isn't even that high.
If they can't find someone to buy it even for almost nothing down, they just hand it off to an institution to sit on it to keep the shell game going.

>But m-muh mortgages are too expensive initial investment!


My 19 year old friends who doesn’t even have a high school diploma just bought a house on mortgage last week, what excuse do you have again anons?

>>28185325
You need to be able to secure a mortgage first of all. Next, there are expenses like repairs and property taxes.

Lastly you need to find tenants, or you ain't getting shit. Specifically you need good tenants. If you get unlucky and they're nigger tier they may stop paying and trash your place before they up and disappear. Speaking from experience (my dad's had this happen twice, the even ripped electrical wires out the fucking wall and shit it was insane)

>>28187895
What if you factored in a 10% market growth reinvesting the left column, vs that 2% housing equity growth?

>>28190364
No one even dared to oppose my point of view?
Check
Matey

>>28191324
Surely he will be able to repay that! Surely!

>>28190364
Because being a landlord sucks.

>>28191324
>what excuse do you have again anons?
I live in the metropolitan area of a major city.

You dont have to do shit as a renter. I just pay rent and rest is done. When I have a problem I call the landlord and he has to fix it otherwise I will get a lawyer and demand rent deduction.

>>28191471
not more than being a bank kike, it would be ezpz for them.

>>28191341
Op is on abound buying your own house to live in instead of renting. Not becoming a landlord.

>>28191634
The risk adjusted returns are probably too high. Returns might be higher but they are taking on risk that rent gets frozen like from coronavirus. It's much easier to chase people down for mortgages they aren't paying through collections and things like that.

>>28191749
*probably too low

>>28188679
Another tally in the "College education teaches you nothing" column

>>28191674
Even so, the first two points still apply.

Maintaining a property can get fuckin expensive.

>>28185325
correct, renting is retarded. Buying a home is may cost a little more, but half of that goes right back into your pocket. (equity) 1000 a month vs 1500 a month, but on the house it gains value and you can sell for big tax free money.

>>28191848
Trve.

Because I move a lot due to work.

Pretty weird how cheap houses are in the us. If I want to buy a house in my hometown near a medium sized metropol. I will pay like 800k € for a single family home. I have to give the bank around 200k to get good interest and still pay the mortgage for the next 35 years. I could buy land and build a 3 family house, but the land alone costs around 500k. I make around 60k a year after tax. Thanks and good bye.

>>28185780
Why didn't you just buy LINK anon, surely as another software engineer you understood the potential it had. I've been working for a similar amount of time and I've recently crossed six figs

>>28191749
>>28191804
Thanks for clearing that out anon

>>28191364
Too tired to crunch the actual math right now, but I suspect it would favor the renter. Depends how much you invest though and if you actually get 10% growth. I would hazard to guess that it's only economical when a big percentage of your net worth is tied up in the market. My 2% appreciation was a conservative estimate on houses as well. My mom is a real estate agent and her conservative estimate was 3.5% appreciation year over year, up to 15% in high demand markets.

>>28186617
I was being more LINK at that time, much higher returns
Now a millionaire
Still renting. Kek.

>>28185325
Why not live there and cut out the middle man? Don't tell me you're gonna leech off your parents

gaining enough money for a deposit is a barrier to entry for a lot of people, especially buy to let mortgages in the uk which would require like 40% deposits on the price of the property

>>28192388
buying*

>>28188091
This

>>28192213
It's not weird Americans just have a lot more space so land is less valuable

>>28185325
People are too shit at personal finance to save a deposit.

>>28192319
Seems pretty equitable to me, because you are either choosing to build equity in the housing market or in whatever index you choose to use.

The property tax vs the rent is the upfront cost and then you basically spend your cash on either the housing market or an index, respectively.

>>28185561
You sound like a jealous incel

Renting is better because house prices are in a bubble

Imagine you mortgage a house for $400,000 and it drops to $300,000, you are now -$100,000 and rekt

>>28192632
when is the fed going to fucking raise interest rates?

>>28186617
also I will cash out in summer and buy a house AFTER the covid property bubble pops, imagine being a cuck like you stuck to an overpriced mortgage, and all for a mere 4x

>>28185325
In order to buy a house you have to either have to buy cash which means handing over a large chunk of cash that you could be using to make more money or you hand over a smaller chunk of cash you could be using to make more money on a downpayment and take a mortgage and pay interest on it. You also have maintenance, insurance, and the government start taxing you based on how large the chunk of money you handed over or how large your mortgage is.

If you rent you can lose smaller amounts of money to keep a larger amount of money in investments that make more money. Eventually you want to buy a house because it sucks not being able to make improvements to your rental and being subject to a landlord, also living in an apartment is subhuman.

>>28192512
I know I could also move to more rural areas. But it's just not what I want. I just don't really know what to do right now. I'm living in the second apartment my parents own with my gf. We try to save as much as we can every month, while also paying rent to my parents. The prices go up every year, most building that are being build have 10-15 Appartments all owned by some property firms. Flats get sold before they are even finished for huge amounts of money. The bubble keeps expanding. Meanwhile I try to accumulate enough shit coins to buy a house in the future. Actually pretty funny desu.

>>28193018
Luckily my city is actually fairly cheap for property. I could get a flat in town centre for -150k although not the biggest.

>>28193194
Meant <150k

Imagine forcing yourself to pay for rent or a mortgage. Living with your parents until you make it is what you should be doing.

>Rent controlled 2 bedroom ground floor apartment
>Have home gym and quick access to subway
>$1100/mo (CAD) ($825 USD)
>Landcuck can't kick me out
>Landcuck can't even raise rents to keep up with inflation anymore, rents are frozen
>If I decide to stop paying, landcuck can't kick me out because pandemic
>If I decide to stop paying after pandemic is over, landcuck can't kick me out for nearly a year
Being a Toronto landcuck must be suffering

>>28187509
Fuck I miss Monterey. Fog kinda sucks, but it's a nice place.

>>28187895
>assuming your property is going to appreciate 2% every year

Housing prices are the literal highest they’ve ever been. Higher than 2007. The value of your property is going to go down, not up

>>28189604
you're a fucking idiot

>>28185946
This

>25% downpayment if you dont want to get cucked by PMI
>competing with boomers who got their house for $20k and can price under you
>maintenance on the McMansion mexicans did a rush job on
>Tyrone didnt feel like paying his rent for the last 3 months so you have to take him to court
Yes, you really are smart and everyone else is stupid. Most non professional landlords are lucky just to break even dude.

>>28195261
PMI is nothing right now. I’m closing on a house soon and it’s $14 a month. You’re a cuck if you are tying up capital in a house just to avoid PMI.

>>28196497
>ignores other arguments
Kek

>>28194920

>>28191072
All mortgages are leverage.

>>28196823
>being intimidated by that one boomer who bought a property in the 80s and still rents it out.
>ever considering buying a McMansion for any reason
>ever considering renting to Tyrone for any reason

>>28185325
If I plan to live alone for the rest of my life, do I rent or buy?

>>28185325
gotta have money to buy a house

>>28185561

Based. Always enjoy seeing lolberts get BTFO.

>>28194638
Not happening. Real estate is the safest place for money now. They're not making more land - and in most cities, they're not even making more housing.

>>28185325
Risk dumbass

>>28197445
But all leverage doesn't mean you're over leveraged.