/biz/ - Business & Finance

So how does it work? You send your coins and pray that the seller sends you the item?

Also, any drug listings as of yet?

>>2658656
What's the point of investing in BitBay, if they have measures to stop massive gains? I think the project is a good idea

>>2658656
Needs a redesign. Looks like trash

>>2658674

Lol. Double deposit escrow makes it all possible, pic related. Both users put up a deposit, and if both users then do not adhere to the agreed upon terms of the contract, their deposits are blown up. Coupled with a reputation-based system through the client, this completely removes any economic incentive to violate the terms of a deal.

As for illicit activity on the marketplace, I have seen none.

>>2658707

The rolling peg will not completely stop gains, it will simply make shopping on the BAY platform a much more consumer-friendly experience. As a BAYholder I share your concerns about the mad gainz - but remember that the truly massive gains come from having a user-friendly experience on the platform, otherwise if shopping with BAY is too volatile and /uncomfy/, we will never attract a sustainable userbase. Plus, by the time we get to the peg, i'm expecting a lot of hype.

>>2658728

100% Agree senpai, looks like shit. You know the Chinese saying "Bless the man with an ugly wife" (paraphrasing)? This is the Ugly Wife of crypto - if you're here for rock solid tech, features, and one hell of a valid use case (http://bitbay.market/walloffeatures/)), this is your coin.

All poor analogies aside, the overall look of the client will certainly be refined after the fundamental features are in place and we scale up the operation. Being that shopping on BitBay will not be normie friendly until after the peg is implemented, I am inclined to agree with David's thought that we should focus on the raw functionality of the client before we focus on the visuals.

I think just in terms of recognition this coins been on an uptrend. You're doing god's work OP. Holding since 600 sats here, it's been comfy.

>>2658656
>TRADE YOUR CRYPTO FOR FIAT
But i dont want fiat. Fiat has no future.

>>2658957

Thank you! I've become more and more dedicated to the project as time goes on. I really want to see this thing to fruition, as do the rest of the team.

>>2659038

Then use the client to trade fiat for crypto, without identifying yourself or paying Coinbase's massive fees :)

Remember to stay comfy and to keep your eyes peeled for the rolling peg in Q4 lads.

We getting comfy gains now, but the real stuff is down the line. Have iron hands in the meantime!

>>2659702
More on the peg:

From an interview with David: "CCN — I also read BitBay is going to be pegged to a specific price. What is your plan for making this happen?
David Zimbeck — There is a Freezing and Unfreezing mechanism for BAY. By fluctuating the liquid supply of coins publicly available, the price can be maintained at a constant level. This is arguably the only proven method of decentralized price control. Everyone’s supply will be affected equally, so you may own frozen and unfrozen currency. When demand increases, frozen coins will be converted to unfrozen to keep the price the same, and vice versa. The mechanism for this is very predictable, since it is based on voting by the miners. These are the pools or people generally holding the majority of the coins, and by simply voting in their own best interest to maintain a healthy economy, the price will be sustained or increase. Frozen coins will make an entirely new asset class within BitBay for anyone voluntarily locking their coins. These Frozen coins, with the promise of future value, will be able to be exchanged for other assets, so they can be used to create bonds, credit swaps, and trustless loans. The pegged value is not a hard peg, it is a soft peg, meaning the price can increase in value. This is an incentive for investors to buy. They receive the benefits of a traditional investment without the volatility of Bitcoin. "
Source: https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@gjsteele71/bitbay-altcoin-interview-exclusive-q-and-a-with-lead-bay-developer-david-zimbeck

TL;DR - The rolling peg is a soft peg intended to stabilize the value of BAY at a certain point, but not halt price movement entirely. This will involve the freezing and unfreezing of coins (temporarily) to prevent huge fluctuations in value, something that makes shopping with today's cryptocurrencies quite an uneasy experience.

>>2658674
This.

I need to sell Colombia on bitbay

>>2659780
What if I want to cash out my BAY for a lambo, but the coins are frozen?

>>2658729
Isn't this easy to game?
>become successful seller of thing
>create several buyer accounts, spread purchases to build rep
>upstart seller appears, encroaches on territory
>sacrifice buyer accounts and deposits to harm other seller

>>2660162

See Pic Related.

More on CheckLockTimeVerify: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/checklocktimeverify-or-how-a-time-lock-patch-will-boost-bitcoin-s-potential-1446658530/

>>2660162
See Pic Related

More on CheckLockTimeVerify:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/checklocktimeverify-or-how-a-time-lock-patch-will-boost-bitcoin-s-potential-1446658530/

>>2660254

See Pic Related

>you can't buy or sell drugs on it
whats the point

>>2660700

Amazon, eBay, AliBaba all seem to do fine.

>hodling bae
>panic bought at ATH
>only coin thats in the red atm
>i aint even mad because comfy gains pretty much guaranteed

Do you guys need any help with the UI stuff? I've been studying web design for a while now and I want to expand my portfolio

>>2660824
no one is going to buy crypto to purchase shit they can much more easily buy on amazon.

>>2661164

We do need help with our website, check in the Slack if you're willing to help out! Many hands make for light work.

>>2661285

They will if it's cheaper and more simple to use the BAY marketplace, and at some point we will reach that point, unironically. Crypto is the future my NoCoiner friend, and BAY is going to have a role in that future.

1. rolling peg is vaporware
2. slowest development of any crypto project in history
3. no one wants a decentralized market for the same things you can find on amazon

>>2661312
I have 67k bitbay guy. it's a fact that no one will use crypto except for those motivated.

>>2661319

1.) See the wall of features (http://bitbay.market/walloffeatures/
), or check out the blog (www.bitbay.market/blog/) and view all of the features the client currently has available. The wallet's security features alone make it a more viable cryptocurrency than 90% out there, imo.

2.) Blatantly false, the decentralized market client is one of the most advanced wallets in crypto.

3.) This sounds more like something a NoCoiner would say than a valid concern.

>>2661330
> nobody is going to want a car when they could just ride a horse

Here's the thing
Auction sites need an intermediary to handle disputes

True libertarian ideals do not benefit the shopping/buying sector since scammers exist and will always try to fuck you over

>>2661513

See >>2658729 with an explanation of how double deposit escrow removes the need for 3rd party arbitration.

In addition to double deposit escrow, sellers have reputation scores. Were someone to run their business in an antisocial manner, certainly the community would judge whether to continue giving that seller business.

>>2661330
No one will do anything without some form of motivation. When this was being shilled months ago I took a look into it, wrote up a post with some thoughts and ended up picking some up.

Basically I agree that black market items would be the biggest short term fuel for this project, it is pretty much perfect for this and one of the projects where decentralization solves a number one problem, that being black market websites being cut off at the head. The problem isn't so much for industry as a whole, few guys take the wrap and a new site(s) popup, but they'll constantly be needing to rebuild and are pretty much cucked in momentum.

Problem for bay is they say this shit isn't allowed, either way they have to say this so it's more a matter of waiting and seeing what happens. If they actively cuck everything from anthrax to fake nikes a black market focused competitor will eventually rise or fork and that is the coin we want, but for now there's only really bay.

Under active cucking their competitive advantage is really only low fees and maybe the double escrow system, but cheaper items is probably more attractive than most think. Nearly every fucking item i've sold on ebay is done under the table, buyers are fucking cheap cunts and will give up the protections of ebay and paypal over a few bucks. If the same fucking guy is selling the same fucking item on another service I think it can start to steal a few away. Both ebay and amazon are fucking tough cunts, but have been taken on in the past reasonably well by for example gumtree which drops the frills and the fees.

Volatility has a part in suppressing forward momentum, for the black market it would basically be a non issue, for normie market it might stand up vs forex via paypal, local deals it becomes less attractive.

I'm happy to sit on it until a better bay emerges

>>2658656
What is the value proposition here? Why is holding BAY going to make you rich outside of speculation. Is it just an intermediary currency that you use on the exchange? Spoonfeed/ shill me please

>>2661723
no value proposition
no need for this intermediary currency
existing features = already open source technology available with a google search
announced features = vaporware "coming soon"

>>2661723

Well, it's not supposed to make you rich, holding and staking BAY facilitates the network that allows for the decentralized marketplace where smart contracts are posted and business transactions occur.

What we aim to be is a marketplace for truly free trade, with no middlemen, that still retains the safety of having some sort of 3rd party oversight.

>>2658656

bitbay is a craiglist/ebay rip off

this isn't innovative at all

what the fuck... is this bullshit thread for?

>>2661741

David releases updates all the time, I assure you we are hard at work at BAY! If you're comparing BitHalo to BitBay, BitHalo was David's original project before BitBay. While they are similar, BitBay has a far greater span of features. Feel free to join the Slack or Discord if you have any skepticism about the things i'm saying!

See this link for the latest wallet update 5/25/2017: http://bitbay.market/performance-upgrade-bitbay-client-version-1-27/

>>2661765

> implying Craigslist or eBay use Smart Contracting software

Anon pls step your FUD up, I work very hard and would appreciate better bait than this.

>>2661741
Not paying a premium to be told what to fucking do by the middle man, digital white van sales.
>>2661783
How does BAY control listings?

>>2661828

Here is the answer from the official FAQ:

Q.) How is the market moderated?
A.) There is only one 'default' marketplace called >BitBay<. Everyone by default becomes a member to this market when they install the Client. This market will be kept clean of any illegal activity like selling drugs.

If you want to create a private market, by all means, create as many as you want. If you create a private market called >Bob's market< then you probably run the risk of it not being so private as anyone else who creates >Bob's market< will also be on that market and can post items on it. Yet if you create a market called >Kskg89f6wDKGU7s9hjs&DKBF78sgjn< the odds are that no one else will know that market exists unless you tell them it exists.

We want this protocol to provide a way for ecommerce to function in a trustless environment on a global scale. Therefore, we want to keep it clean of illegal activity, yet at the same time we can't moderate what we can't see.

We can program this design to anything we desire (majority consensus of course). In the future we could easily set up public markets that are specific to geographics. For example, if there is a country where drugs can be sold legally, then we could create a market eccentric to that country and moderated by the merchants from that market (they could be voted into power by the voting consensus feature built into the Client). So merchants from a specific country could create a market called "BitBay Netherlands" These merchants could sell whatever is legal in the Netherlands to clientele in the Netherlands. It would be up to them to take the risk if they transact with clientele outside of the country that could potentially be illegal elsewhere.

The private markets are decentralized and cannot be moderated if we can’t see them. The public markets like >BitBay< are decentralized for legal commerce and moderated for illegal activity. Moderators can be voted into power by a decentralized voting consensus.

>>2661810

It's actually worse.. a rich scammer using "double deposit escrow" can lie and make it so the buyer loses their money and security deposit (of course the scammer will also lose his money as well, but because he's rich he could careless). There are vicious rich scammers who will enjoy fucking with people using this method.

>>2661888

Kek wew lad, nice trips but if that's sincerely how you think business/money works then please don't buy in.

>>2661873

is he saying "lol sell your drugs we dont care?"

if yes Ill buy even more of this shit

>>2661873
So what happens if there's a private market moderators see and decide they don't like? This can be altered?

>>2661888
There's still a reputation system

>>2661902
We're can't expect an answer to that

Fuck this overly shilled useless coin.

Even if it gets to a point where crypto is big enough to use as a currency, then amazon or eBay will adopt bitcoin for payment.

There is no need for this. And the one developer who refuses to bring anyone else on board for years.

Then you have plebs who shill it and say slow and steady gains. Take a step back and look at the market. There is actually no need. Normies will not want to learn and adapt this.

They already barely know how to use eBay.

>>2661976

if they turn this into a decentralized silk road with double escrow well all be gazillionaires

if it stays a vanilla normie tier kinda site I dont see a big future for it desu

>>2662047
They won't do that. It's a normie platform so it won't do shit

>>2662047
>>2661976
>>2661895
Was just about to close this page thinking "Why the fuck would anyone use Bitbay when Amazon and Ebay fill all normie needs". If they turn a blind eye to drugs this could be MASSIVE

>>2662020
>>2662078

This is literally FUD and exactly what people said about Amazon and eBay, AliBaba etc.

> Why would people buy clothes online? They'll just go to the mall! They barely know how to use computers

How are shopping malls doing in today's modernized economy?

>>2662020
adopting bitcoin does nothing to their downsides which are fees and regulation, aside from that what do they have? Simple use of FIAT and buyer protection which ARE going to be big selling points to the normies. But the market is enormous, BAY does not need to destroy either of them to be successful, it MAY find it's niche. There is no point in saying there is no need for this or normies will not adopt it, same shit was said about paypal, normies fucking hated it, now they love it and we fucking hate it.

>>2661765
That's like saying bitcoin is a PayPal ripoff.
What the fuck is your bullshit post for?

>>2662088
this, dev hasn't made up his mind what to do
he knows if he "turns a blind eye" hes going to jail
but if he doesn't turn a blind eye bitbay is worthless to the decentralization community

>>2662271
Why would he go to jail?
On his official bitbay marketplace no drugs will be allowed. If you host another marketplace with drugs, you are going to jail, not him.

paging the offical BAY shill

you guys need to get confirmed that this will be silkroad 2.0

the hoff memes are cute but just start marketing this as the new place for DRUGS

shit will go ballistic my man
stop being little bitches and MAKE IT HAPPEN!

>>2662296
for setting up a way for people to, and turning a blind eye to people hosting marketplaces with drugs...obviously...

>>2662326
He cannot control the marketplace you are hosting. It's like throwing Vitalik in jail if someone somewhere uses ETH to buy drugs.

>>2662336
1. he can control is, he coded it
2. by setting up the method to carry out the crime he's as responsible as the person handling the sale. it's like if you gave someone all of the supplies to set up a meth den, and they started selling meth. you're still responsible for creating the platform and giving them the tools
3. it's nothing like your vitalek analogy, at all

>>2662336

This.

BitBay is a platform for free trade. How a user decides to use that responsibility is up to them.

What we are seeking to do is to launch a platform enabling safe and free trade between parties worldwide.

>>2662403

this is obviously nonsense
by this logic they could put the mailman in jail if he delivered a package full of drugs

or a chemist for selling precursors to make drugs

or a knife manufacturer because somebody killed a nigga with a knife

ideally the dev shouldve stayed anonymous though and just released SILK ROAD V2 into the wild

btw I propse we just call id SILK ROAD V2 now
fuck this bitbay shit

lets make some gazillions my niggas

>>2662438
a mailman, chemist, or knife marker aren't designing platforms that specifically imply illegal stuff. if you don't think a decentralized private market where they're saying "How a user decides to use that responsibility is up to them." implies illegal stuff, you're lying to yourself

"So he came up with the germ of an idea: what if there were a Web site, like Yelp, that rated buyers and sellers, so that exchanges would be fair and more transparent? There would be fewer fatal overdoses, he reasoned."
"Ulbricht bears responsibility for the overdoses, addictions, and other foreseeable repercussions of the illegal drugs sold on Silk Road," Bharara wrote in a letter to the judge. "It does not matter that he did not personally handle those drugs; neither would a traditional kingpin."

>>2662476

>a mailman, chemist, or knife marker aren't designing platforms that specifically imply illegal stuf

neither is the bitbay dev
he just coded a badass decentralized trading platform that happens to be a perfect fit for the drug rade

what end users end up doing with it is none of his business

to be fair though, ideally he should just fork it and anonymously release a clone as SILK ROAD V2

lets all say it together now SILK ROAD V2

bitbay shill you ARE taking notes and passing them on to the dev, arent you?

>>2662503
oh yeah totally cool he just coded this decentralized trading platform that HAPPENS to be the perfect fit for drug trade and what users do on HIS platform is "none of his business"
you put this argument to rest, he will get in no trouble at all

>>2662503
also there already was a silk road v2 you mongoloid

>>2662476

Sounds like you have a sick mind that dwells in the gutter desu. Do you think people aren't selling drugs through Facebook Messenger? Is Mark Zuckerberg in prison yet?

This is absolutely unsubstantiated FUD and I will no longer bother to respond. Let me know when the Feds are coming to arrest me for shilling BitBay too lol

>>2662518
I hate to break it to you retards but this anon is right, it's just the way the law works, whether you like it or not

>>2662548

Whose law? Your law? Where do you live? Where do I live? Different laws. You guys sound like you don't understand decentralization. This can't be shut down at this point anymore than Bitcoin can.

>>2662535
facebook messenger is targeted at teenage girls
a decentralized trade market aimed at crypto users, ran by a government-hating lunatic who keeps repeating "i can't control users" "it's not my responsibility" "it's none of my business" obviously implies illegal sales
you're being disingenuous pretending this is only in my "sick mind that dwells in the gutter." you actually know the truth and most people here reading this do too
>>2662548
ok so not all of biz is delusional

>>2662607
see my post >>2662271
dev doesn't know what to do
he knows he's fucked either way

>>2662518

except that he doesnt own it because its - like you said - decentralized

also no need to be rude you smarmy faggot

P.S. bitbay is now offically SILK ROAD V2 and you faggot better get with the program

>>2662633

nothing stopping him from cloning the coin and releasing SILK ROAD V2 anonymously into the wild

>>2662692
no one said he owns it, i said he created it dumbfag
and for the last time silk road 2.0 already existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketplace)#Silk_Road_2.0

>>2662569
international law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Onymous

>>2662706
This. This is the coin you need to be on the lookout for at all times.

actual valid discussion
bitbay shill got btfo, didnt know what to do and left
best bitbay thread ever

>>2662751

There are obviously many ways situations could be remedied in the future were they to pop up. One solution would be as simple as giving the private market owner a moderation key to that market to make them fully responsible for the content therein, while still allowing for private markets.

>>2662940

Had to whoop my roommates ass in NBA 2k real quick.

>>2663000
i'm sorry officer i know i created the platform but i gave anons moderation keys so THEY'RE responsible for what happens inside their private markets, i had no idea my platform would be used for illegal stuff

>>2662732

so fucking what
governments build roads. should we sue them now because drugs are being transported on roads?

what if he moves to some third world shithole with no laws? what if he releases a clone anonymously?

youre a low energy fud faggot and just got BTFO by the glory that is SILK ROAD V2

also GTFO here with your silk road v2 ripoff

theres onle one SILK ROAD V2 and thats the shitcoin formerly known as bitbay

ALL HAIL SILK ROAD V2

Looks like shit desu

>>2663029

lets just shut down the entire fucking internet because people are trading drugs online!!!

you low energy faggot just cant stand the glory that is SILK ROAD V2

better bow down and kiss the ring bitch

BITBAY Shill GTFO in here and confirm that SILK ROAD V2 is gonna open their gates for the online drug trade

this shit is gonna moon to 100 billion over night

we finna be rich my niggas

bitbay shill where the fuck are you? you need to start making memes

forget about that washed up alcoholic hasselhof. SILK ROAD V2 is the future!

>>2663029

You're honestly creating hysteria over hypothetical drug markets in my thread and it has ruined the quality of discussion.

>>2663036

Please stop shitting up my thread. If you think using crypto makes you invulnerable to police you're going to have a bad time.

>>2663036
>>2663047
>>2663060
you're L I T E R A L L Y fucking retarded

>>2663063

you need to get with the program bro
nobody cares about some decentralized ebay clone

but everybody loves drugs

SILK ROAD V2!!

>>2663060

Hey Pumphead, I already told you in your last thread, Bitbay is a comfy gain coin.

Stop trying to pump and crash it with artificial hype that isn't worth anything.

Get back when you learn more words than "moon, finna, and rich" and learn to invest your money based on what you know, not what lemmings you can get to jump off a cliff with you hoping to shoot for the moon.

Your futile aims to pump the coin without providing any legitimate sources, information, or reason other than "finna" does not help anyone actually want to invest in the coin.

If you're so impatient to not just HODL and get comfy, then jump onto a more volatile coin.

>>2663169

first youre thinking of a different guy
second youre incredibly shortsighted. this is not about pumping this coin... its about the birth of SILK ROAD V2

you need to have some vision man and lay off those lame gaywatch memes

now get the dev onboard to confirm that drug trade is happening and we all finna be rich my nigga

>>2663200

Checked. I mean thanks for the bumps and all man but are you old enough to be here?

>>2663200

First off it was you, you were shilling and shit pump talking this morning with the exact same words, see:
>>2654614

And you even mentioned that you already knew about "That washed up alcoholic hasselhof" (me) and the BAYshill here from the last post I made in your shitty thread with no real information or contributions to the BAY community:
>>2663060
>>2659522

>Get a developer to confirm illicit illegal activity on his platform, what could go wrong?!

You have to be a special kind of stupid to think this.

Please dude, I admire your faith in the coin, but you're doing more damage than you are helping. Look at the sources in the OP provided by the BAYshill and read up on the upcoming features, the already implimented ones (http://bitbay.market/walloffeatures/)), and the market trends so you can better convey your belief in the BAT outside of telling people how it is "FINNA MOON NIGGA."

>>2663200
My nigga we gon be rich with this Silk Road v2 boyoooo

>>2663302
>Backing a team of Polacks who can't even create a user interface that looks like it's from the 21st century

Have fun losing your money when someone makes a proper marketplace and BitBay loses its value overnight.

>>2663331

Making BitBay prettier will be the easiest thing to do u normie

What a thread this has been.

>>2663375

I love a good BAYtalk, even when there's tough questions.

BitBay creator: "Silk Road 3.0 no comment lol"
>lol
>lol
you guys are so fucked lol

>>2663407

Answered you multiple times.

>>2663423
not looking for an answer to anything
>>2663200
>>2663085
>>2663060
>>2663302
the only honest bitbay shills. they're saying what everyone is thinking

>>2663510
Doesn't Alphabay already fit that niche?

And doesn't David want to avoid the drug trade?

>>2663519
alphabay not decentralized, so no

>>2663519

Yes. This guy >>2663510 is entirely off base with his strange hysteria.

>>2663634

This. BitBay is decentralized. It's been a buzzword for so long people are forgetting what the significance of being decentralized actually is.

>>2663085
>SILK ROAD V2!!
Unfortunately this is why I can't invest in this shit. It WILL get shut down eventually if there's obvious mass criminal exchanges going on.

>>2658729
Problem is this is literally 100% memes with 0 explanation as to how this can possibly work. If a physical item is received, it's trivial to just cancel the transaction. Best case scenario you get both the item and its price. Worst case you get the item for its price. Either way, the buyer wins. The seller has no recourse.

>>2662403
You have no clue what you're talking about legally.
>>2662403
>it's like if you gave someone all of the supplies to set up a meth den, and they started selling meth. you're still responsible for creating the platform and giving them the tools

You might be responsible but not legally culpable, what charge could you possibly be placed under lmao

>BREAKING NEWS: WALMART EMPLOYEE JAILED FOR SELLING CHEMISTRY EQUIPMENT TO STRANGE MAN WHO TURNED OUT TO BE RUNNING A METH LAB, MORE AT SIX

>>2663680

Hi

just thought id come here and say, that i just went all in on bitbay. this coin is my last bastion of hope.

i sold everything i had for a loss. i sold my waves, my strat, my sia, my lisk, my rdd, my gnt. i took about a 4 grand hit. Im putting all my faith in this coin now. itsmy last hope. if bitbay fails me, i'll be exiting crypto , and probably ending my life.

>>2663870
It won't but you're going to have to be patient if you're all in. This is a slow and steady coin.

>>2663870
jesus fuck kid a trip to the casino might have been more profitable

>>2663889
im ok with slow and steady. i just dont want to wake up tomorrow and see bitbay -30%, like i kept experiencing with my other coins.

>>2663870
Thats a bit of a risk friend. While BAY is a solid hold coin, you might want to make sure you're completely cognizant of all the features, the market, and the project before investing all in.

Join the discord and talk it over with BAYshill or join the Slack and talk it over directly with the Devs.

I admire your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't want you to make such a bold move and have to panic if the market gets a little shaky in corrections.

HODL coins aren't going to be instant gratification if that is what you're looking for.

>>2663929
You wont see -30% but you might see ~ -10% at times, look at the chart. Long term this is consistently going up week after week but there are always spikes and falls. If you get concerned just sell at a high and buy back in during the dips.

>>2663943
no fuck it, its too late. im in. i feel good about it. im forgetting about the past and all my horrible decisions . things are looking up

>>2663870
holy shit man, hey i wish you the best. i would have split the porfolio between this and ans though. One is a safe long term, one is a risky long term.

>>2664000
well then checked trips beckon your future anon.

Get comfy and don't buy the FUD, only the facts.

And monitor the slack for new updates if you need reassurance of your investment ok?

Like >>2663947
said, if you feel the need, just sell high and buy back during the dip or correction in the market.

>>2664040
i dont trust ans though. i honestly think its a shitcoin. the wallet is terrible. it seems like a pump and dump to me. i dont see bitbay that way at all.