/biz/ - Business & Finance

I buy things the day before they moon though

>>26565908
You get assraped by other "hidden" taxes like in Switzerland that also has a "0% capital gain tax" guaranteed.

>>26565908
>France
crypto-to-crypto not taxable

>>26566098
Only thing I can think of is is the 0.35% "exchange tax", which does not apply to crypto.

>>26566189
crypto to crypto is only taxable in the.. (lmao) "land of the free" hahahahahah

>>26566098
>>26566226
They will audit your taxes if you've cashed a larger amount in one time.
Syphon it in slowly and you'll be fine. Be sure to use offshore accounts, though.

>>26566289
That's the beauty of it: auditing will only confirm that you held for more than a year, and that you owe 0% taxes.

>>26565908
in germany that is also the case ja

>>26566401
Echt?

Also es gibt für Sie auch kein Walther auf deine Eier gerichtet?

>>26566321
If you actually did, then yes. Get the lube ready if you didn't!

>>26566484
I've been holding for over 2.5 years, with absolutely zero activity.

>>26566484
what if you made some quick trades more than a year ago but held ever since? and the majority of profits comes from holding?

>>26566588
I'm guessing the shorter the hodl period, the greater the risk of getting shat on.

I've been hodling for about 6 months i'll try a ruling let's hope it goes through

Belgium is literally communism when it comes to wages though. An IT tech might make a thousand bucks more a month than a cleaning lady if he is lucky. Most of the people just start up a firm so they can cheat the tax system.

>>26566441
manchal ist es das Gelbe vom Ei

>>26565908
In Luxembourg it is 0% for a 6 month hold

>>26567154
Many of us hold a slushfund there.

t.Belgian

Hi guys, Belgian here with a long standing relationship with a tax lawyer. Nowadays, rulingdienst mostly decides that crypto is speculative (33% tax) and then you can discontinue their ruling because obviously you don’t want that. Just declare your exchange eth address to the CAP and they probably won’t come after you when exchanges have to provide information about their customers (new EU laws coming). Because they target the ones who didn’t say they have a foreign account first - and then it’s fraud. If you declare it, it’s not fraud (so worst they can do is a 10% fine on top of your speculation tax and gemeente tax). Just get a tax lawyer guys stop being an idiot.

>>26565908
>Is there a more based country on earth?
Yea, Belarus. 2 years in USD, 1 year in local currency.

>>26567154
What are normally investment taxes in Lux?

>>26567154
>>26567214
>>26566401

I'm extremely glad it's not just Belgium that has 0% (capital gains) tax for long-term holds.
Means less pressure to introduce a capital gains tax as well.

0% goede huisvader is probably very unrealistic for crypto. Worth the try though. I believe it’s better trying to go for the speculation tax (33%) instead of the main income tax (50%). So just don’t make a lot of trades and work part time or study. Don’t be a NEET or you’ll get fined 50%. But ffs get your own tax lawyer. -_- morons

>>26567202
>Nowadays, rulingdienst mostly decides that crypto is speculative (33% tax)
The "goede huisvader" thing applies to crypto as well.
It's 0% for long-term holds.

>>26567283
There has been no ruling so far published with 0% rate. The goede huisvader rule is meant for boomers investing in funds managed by their bank. Not for /biz/dwelling crypto speculators.

>>26567276
>>26567202
>>26567352
There's a precedent: a student who ran a trading bot went to the ruling commission himself, and they only handed him a 33% tax rate, since trading was not his main activity.

This is completely analogous to how stock market trades are taxed, so the "goede huisvader" principle naturally applies as well.

>>26567443
Anyways... I have a good relationship with my tax lawyer and he invests in crypto himself. I’m taking his word. 0% is unrealistic.

>>26567493
>0% is unrealistic.
Why?

>>26565908
I’m from Belgium and I was talking to my accountant who has miners as clients.

=> Since the coins aren’t recognized by the State you don’t even have to precise that you own some in your tax papers.

=> The reason it’s not a taxable event is because all plus-value done in the trading market aren’t taxable if it’s done as a “good father of family” ie : yeah, just invest, hodl, and act surprised that you made that much + (and it’s very important) <u>hide yourself with a daily job/business!</u>

>>26567352
I've heard similar things

Interesting question though I've invested 4k euros 3 years ago now have 500k, but I've been working and living in UK, also cashed out some allowed sum here (allowed up to 12.3k GBP per year tax free).

I was planning to just pay taxes to the UK. It's only 20%. Should I get UK citizenship to be sure?

Is there? Gee, I don't know.

Portugal, 0 tax. Buy whenever you want, sell whenever you want.

>based level over 9000

>>26567507
Crypto is a high risk high reward speculative investment.
Besides that, rulingdienst has never gave someone the 0% rate before.
Just declare your exchange adress on the CAP as a foreign bank account and don’t do anything else. If they don’t come after you themselves, your fine. Get a good relationship with your bank and make sure you can prove to them no criminal activity happened and then cash out. And after five yeas your taxes are discontinued.

>>26567521
>+ (and it’s very important) <u>hide yourself with a daily job/business!</u>
This is indeed important.
The whole idea is that your investments should be "prudent"; that implies not throwing all your savings at crypto, and also that the investment should not be your source of income.

>>26567521
Hiding yourself is key. Study or work part-time or full time. I’m gonna pursue an arts degree now. :-)

>>26565908
>belgium
>based country
pick one

>>26567613
>Crypto is a high risk high reward speculative investment.
Tons of investments are. In March, stonks crashed worse than in 1929.
Even options get 0% if you do it as a "good housefather".

>Besides that, rulingdienst has never gave someone the 0% rate before.
You wouldn't necessarily know.
Surely hundreds or even thousands of Belgians have cashed out so far.

>>26567627
>>26567651
Well it's a permanent measure to avoid going to jail for tax evasion. Aspiring to get a job as a librarian, myself.

>>26567627
Yeah... realistically just expect 33%... I’m already fine with it really. I got enough money. Just let your greed go...

>>26567627
Also that.

>>26567651
I’m also an artist. A makeup artist

>>26567699
>You wouldn’t necessarily know.
It’s what my fiscal lawyer told me. I’m pretty sure he knows best.

15% for a 12 month hold in Ausfailia

>>26567773
>It’s what my fiscal lawyer told me. I’m pretty sure he knows best.
Pretty sure he doesn't know every single decision made by the tax authorities.

>>26567798
He told me most get the 33% from the rulingdienst and then they just don’t go on with it. (it’s anonymous so it’s possible)

>>26565908

I was working in Belgium as a software dev for a year. Gross salary - 3000 Euro, net salary - 1800.

>Oh well, at least with such high taxes the services an infrastructure will be good
oh boy
>pay at every doctor/dentist
>public transport overpriced and sparse up to the point of uselessness
>neighbor neeting for 2 years on full salary because he got fired from his job as baggage boy at the airport - complains that he doesnt get bonuses

Also, they proposed that I can take a pay cut and have a fully fueled company car. I was astonished that they would do so for a junior dev, but I soon learned that it is to circumvent taxes and that in Belgium even a receptionist has a company car.

Now try to imagine what the roads in Belgium look like in rush hour. The Belgians are sabotaging their own lives by spending them in traffic. Forget the idyllic pictures of people going everywhere on bicycles - that is Netherlands. Belgium is a pathological hellhole.

>>26567848
Yeah we got a lot of problems but at the same time I feel like I don’t really want to move out.

Been thinking a lot about Switzerland though...

What about Portugal? I think they don't even have a 1 year limit

>>26566189
>>France
>crypto-to-crypto not taxable
But 30% at cashing out, awful

>>26567848
Holy shit as a belgian this is embarrasing to read. Literally one of the top 10 countries to live in and it's not good enough for you spoiled ass. You pay max 5 euros for doctor visits, the rest gets paid back unless you are a nigger without healthcare (which costs only +-100 euros per year). Public transport is less than two euros per fare and if you get a yearly subscription you pay way less. You complain about getting a free car holy shit. Go back to brazil or the US, you absolute jew

In the Netherlands there are no HODL time requirements , you only have to pass along your networth on the exact time of 00:00 1th of januari. Then you'll pay between 0-1.2% Tax based on how much you posses (only after 50K EURO you have to even declare it). There is made no difference between holding FIAT, Stock or Crypto.

>>26567931

>Belgium is a pathological hellhole.

Actually I didn't mean that. I only meant it at 7:00 stuck on the highway between Ghent and Antwerp, knowing I will be late for work again.

It is a marvelous country with brave history and great quality of life. I also admire that it somehow works to be a country made of two nations.

Just those fucking company cars and taxes...

>>26567848
Don’t listen to that guy >>26568032
I’m okay with you. Belgium is a hell hole

>>26567848
>tfw pay 150 bux in company car taxes on a job I commute to on a shitty train
>everybody gets company car because corporate said so, no train reimbursement

>>26568032
Yeah our country is fine - just Brussels is a problem in my opinion and it’s probably what the software dev is talking about

>>26568095
After 50k you also pay a lot of tax.
We are Belgians we’re not poorfags here we’ve got way more than that

>>26567991
>cashing out
kek.
Only for paying rent and grocery expenses.
Maybe 100k a year for the next 10 years. paying 300k in taxes but growing your wealth into the billions.

>>26567848
kek. I gave up on working hard long ago because of how many taxes there are here. its better to just neet and get gibs. not worth working here.

>>26567991
France can go up to 65% tax... the more you have the more you’re taxed.

>>26568173
Based

I’ve found pic related on that nigger-lover website https://www.google.be/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/8vcp09/taxes_on_crypto/

>>26568173
>average Charleroi poster

>>26568193
I still work a job but I only work 2 or 3 hours a day to compensate for the high taxes. get paid for 8. I hope to get fired soon so that I can take a break and go on benifits. I'm depressed af cause of the corona. I need a long break when its over.

>>26566098
Doesn't really matter when capital gains are 90% of your net worth

>>26568216
No I have a degree in IT. I can code and such. Its just not worth it to work hard here in Belgium. Thats the facs. Working hard, is dumb.

>>26568153
No you only pay about 0.8-1.5% TAX, which is literally less than inflation.

>>26566765
Those cost 10k fren

>Slovenia, not tax for crypto

>>26568032

>You pay max 5 euros for doctor visits
Actually you might be right, it was probably a dentist that financially ruined me.
>Public transport is less than two euros per fare and if you get a yearly subscription you pay way less.
It cost 3 in Antwerp and the bus routes are so convoluted that it was faster to go by bicycle.

I am sorry if I was overly dramatic. Belgium is a great country as you say, however almost all of my colleagues agreed that the main problems are taxes, ridiculous car policies and resulting soulcrushing traffic jams.

>>26568300
Are you sure? I did research on it before and eventually I found out you also have to pay high taxes.

>>26567848
>roads in Belgium

Ahahahahahahaha.
That’s gem you could come up with?
Illiterate mid-wit confirmed.
go home and “kill your girl”
Don’t beg me to kick you off from this /biz/ thread
wanna get cash - use your fucking brain and go for base
That’s all I can advise you

>>26568378
Don’t forget our problem with “ambitious youngsters” who are protesting for “justice”

>>26568216
>>26568274
Can confirm, I am in IT too and while I have a nice company car, my net wage after taxes is peanuts while my roommate who is unemployed due to corona is literally paid more at the end of the month. It's a broken country, but atleast the cost and quality of life are good, and healthcare is unironically really good as well (infrastructure on the other does suck yes)

>>26565908
>Country

>>26568541
>I am in IT too and while I have a nice company car,
I worked in IT for a while until I got sick of being the hard working guy getting paid literal shit, asked a raise, didn't get one. I stopped working hard and eventually got fired. I went on benefits t (80pct of last payheck, why even work?lmao) then I started a new job on the business level with office stacies. I also got a raise. Now I just click some buttons and send some mails for 2 hours a day with the office stacies and get paid more then I did when I was working hard in IT. Fuck working hard in Belgium. I hope I get laid of again soon so I can start somewhere else and get another pay raise. its the only way to get a significant raise in wages these days. starting somehwere else.

>>26567242
There are no taxes for stocks and crypto held over 6 months or real estate over 24 months. If under then it is taxed as regular income.

>>26568660
I never worked a day in my life and I’m a rich retired 24y old crypto neet.
Got a sizeable sum of money from my grandfather when I was 18 years old and invested it all in crypto. It’s nice to be white.

>>26568568
how's the Scottish referendum going britcuck?

>>26568173
Same. I don't ask for a raise anymore. What's the point, I'm literally working for mohameds gibs. Instead I ask for more vacation. I'm at 48 days and work like 20h a week.
I'm pretty close to neetdom without actually being one.

>>26568692
How is the procedure for moving to luxembourg?

Here in the Netherlands there is no capital gains tax. So you can trade tax free.

(We have a savings tax, which effectively means you pay around 1,2% per year over the part of your investments above 50k euro).

>>26568274
>>26568541
IT NEET as well btw

>>26568756
I just get myself fired every 2 or 3 years and go on benifits. fuck em i will not be the exploited slave

>>26567276
Idd goede fiscaal jurist en hopla

>>26568806
our country is so cucked that they showed this strategy as sensible on a kid's show in the early 2000's (W817)

>>26568778
But they look at what you owned on 1 jan last year.

So when you have to file your taxes in april 2021. And you didn't own anything on 1 jan 2020, then you pay nothing. Theoretically you could even cash out on 30 december and avoid taxes that way.

>>26568692
>>26568765
But it's the same in Belgium
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=speculation+taxes+beglium

>>26568876
can you buy an expensive $5Million painting at 30dec then?

>>26568883
https://www.keytradebank.be/en/support/articles/540-speculation-tax-abolished-as-of-1-january-2017

here

>>26568944
That depends. If the painting is not an investment, then you will avoid the savings tax legally. You are allowed to spend your money before 1 jan.

>>26565908
Is holding in stablecoin valid?

>>26568032
Zeer goed

>>26568437
where??? Pretty sure it's just box3 lmao

>>26566496
How did it work for you cocu?

>>26568876
Depends, only if you cash out to assets that don't hold or increase in value. Like chocolate bars.

Belgian IT guys with some decent experience should try and freelance. I worked as a BA with a couple of freelance coders and architects and they have a decent earning gig going on. From what I find online, rates of €600/day are quite doable. Even if you're getting taxraped (about 50% is taxed I believe), you'll still end up with significantly more money than waging.

>>26569183
Yeah I'm either going freelance after this or start my own thing or something. not sure yet.

>>26569164
Nah. There is no real definition what an investment is. Just buying a painting "for yourself" and then changing your mind is fine

>>26569183
>about 50%
Being self employed does this to you in France as well. A small price to pay to be your own boss.

>>26569222
Alright I agree, in fact that's what collectors do, they build their collection while having another income, only spend their gains from the collection on the collection itself (grows in value) and then when the collection is very large and valuable, they sell it off as private goods.There is 0% tax on a collection.

>>26565908
aint no way my shithole country has this ?I mean I never looked into taxes but I thought I'd have to pay like 40% when I cash out and the tax man finds out

>>26565908
>25% brown
no thanks.

>>26568478
Kek, I remember this video. The state of infrastructure in Belgium is appalling, with many train stations falling apart out of negligence. Not just the smaller ones, but even major ones like Mechelen or Brussels North. The first time I arrived at the Brussels North station by train, I unironically felt like I had arrived in some bombed out Eastern European shithole.

There's also the issue of many Belgians having no sense of exterior home design whatsoever. They'll expand their house by building two garages, a laundry room, etc. with no regard for the design of the rest of their house or anyone else's. Pic related, it's what a huge percentage of "self-designed" houses look like in Belgium.

>>26565908
Letterlijk elk ander land in het Westelijke halfrond
>Source: am belgfag myself

>>26569128
Worked out swimmingly, croissant.

>>26566189
crypto to crypto is not taxable in any european country I can think of.

>>26569439
>Belgians having no sense of exterior home design
Meanwhile, in the Netherlands everyone lives in tiny government houses built in the 1930s that all look alike up and down the street.
The pinnacle of luxury is a semi-detached house with three bedrooms, which'll run you a solid 700k Euros at least.

Belgians live in mansions by comparison.

Frens in Belgium. you do not have to pay any taxes if you just reinvest your money. So basically, buy low, sell high, buy back low. and hold. no one actually really wants to hold euros anyways. itsdumb, eventually you will have to buy someting that doesn't lose 5 to 10pct of purchasing power every year. So myght as wel just never sell your bitcoins/crypto. or only to buy back lower. its completely stupid to hold euros on the bank. imagine taking profit into your bank and paying taxes to later discover damn. I shud of just kept it in the store of value magic internet money.

>>26569183
I'm wagecucking for experience and will most likely go freelance afterwards

>>26569714
>So basically, buy low, sell high, buy back low
This counts as speculation, which carries a 33% tax rate.

If you hodl for an extended time (at least 1 year it seems), you pay 0% tax.

>>26568274
Literally start your own management IT firm you fucking dumb ass. Cheat the system.

>>26569829
>>So basically, buy low, sell high, buy back low
>This counts as speculation, which carries a 33% tax rate.
no you idiot. I don't make any profit if I reinvest al my money lower. theres no tax on holding bitcoin.

>>26569851
>no you idiot. I don't make any profit if I reinvest al my money lowe
Selling high and buying low is what speculation is all about.

>>26569863
are you a brainlet? I bought more products, I have no profit, bitcoin is a product.

>>26569924
Once you do cash out, you'll get taxed 30% for speculating.

>>26568660
>Fuck working hard in Belgium
Thats because you retards pay taxes. Just start a business yourself, get a nice accountant. If you're building a house out of 100% legal taxed materials, you're doing it wrong. Every single person that builds a house buys the construction materials 30% taxed, 70% under the radar of the FISCUS lmao

In Belgium it's better to study law abd accountancy alongside whatever you're doing so you can cheat the system

>>26569948
Why would I cash out into an asset that inflates? you haven't understood it at all.

>>26569183
>>26569214
>>26569807
I signed up for an IT cource in the military

>>26568692
You have to pay tax after only cashing out to your bank account? If I sell stocks and reinvest back profits on the platform do I have to report that? Does it count as taxable income?

>>26570017
This thread is about taxes, not bitcoin maxi fantasy scenarios.

>>26570051
>If I sell stocks and reinvest back profits on the platform do I have to report that?
no, only EUROS are taxed. no euros = no tax paying.

>>26570055
stay poor.

>>26569714
I started investing my savings last month when I heard that we might have to PAY instead of getting interest out of it. I don't know anything about investing so I put it into pensioensparen and a beleggingsfonds through argenta.
Am I getting jewed?

>>26570072
So If I day trade and hold for short amount of time for a year and double my portfolio, then invest everything for longer than 6month and cash out how is it then?

>>26570135
yes, pensoeinsparen is a scam and belleggingsfonds is also a scam. you have given away your money to others to play with instead of doing it yourself.

especially pensioensparen is a scam never do it. just buy scarce assets instead.

>>26565908
croatia is the same, and also if you didnt hodl so long you pay only 10%

>>26570100
you:
>hurrr Bitcoin is all that matters

also you:
>prices Bitcoin in fiat

>>26570032
I hate to break it to you anon but the military will teach you nothing except what to know for the military.
Private software development is very much removed form that.

>>26570178
not sure. Just build your portfolio and don't hold euros. only cash out what you need when you need it. theres no point in having 1Million euros in your bank account. you lose purchasing power every single day. All rich fucks in the world are looking for places to put their money so it doesn't inflate to 0.

>>26569807
Thats fine. Someone at my old job did that and everyone else in the team followed suit after hearing what he made kek.
I chose for a relaxed government job tho. I'm lazy

>>26566830
sounds very unsustainable. I would not trust the capital gains tax to stay low for long

>>26570230
imagine if you had cashed out BTC 2 tops ago and never looked back. (at $1200) imagine if you made 100x on that 10k you invested, you paid 33pct tax. so you ended up with 666k euros in your bank. that 666k in your bank now buys you only goods worth for 500k (inflation fucked you) while bitcoin went up cuz rich people put put their worthless cash in it.

imagine still not understanding what crypto is

cashing out = staying poor.

>>26570250
Are from lux?

>>26570314
>you paid 33pct tax
This whole entire thread is about paying 0% because you held long enough.

>>26565908
81 on the fattest countries list, the only chart that matters anon and that ain’t bad

>>26570179
How? The bank jew showed me some bretty graphs with a 7% yearly increase. And the 30% recoup from taxes

>>26570379
you still don't get it, stay poor.

>>26570428
Oh I got your point, anon.
>"If you pull out of investment you aren't investing anymore."
It's not a very amazing insight, if I can be honest with you.

>>26570135
Personally I'm a fan of diversified portfolios, to distribute risk. Pensioensparen perfectly fits in there. You can invest up to €1270 per year currently of which you'll be able to deduct 25% off your taxes. If it's invested in a decent performing funds (like Argenta's ARPE funds btw) it's not a bad deal desu. You'll still get taxed something like 10% on the earnings you made when you turn 60, but all in all pensioensparen definitely has a place in a diversified. But make sure to go for a funds and not a pension insurance (tak21), your capital safety is guaranteed there but the returns are only marginally better than a savings account. Allthough it seems you can also do langetermijnsparen in a tak21 insurance that allows you to deduct up to 25% of the capital you put into it (limited depending on your income), and you can combine that with the fiscal deductions of pensioensparen. So in that way it could still be interesting, even though the returns of tak21 very low right now (thank you ECB).

>>26565908
it's the same in Austria

>>26570566
I bought NOKIA stocks 4 days ago and im already up 20pct. fuck pensioensparen

>>26570566
>You'll still get taxed something like 10% on the earnings you made when you turn 60,
your money is locked until 60. it inflates big time. also who wants money when tehy are 60? holy shit what a scam

>>26568173

t.every frenchspeaking lazy pedo

>>26567848
>3000
I have to say things improved a little bit. The previous federal government reformed the income taxations, but most of the advantages went to lower income classes. It makes that a full time employed person has a guaranteed net income of around 1500/1600 euros per month. That 3000 euros would now be around 1900 instead of the 1800 you got. But there's still a long way to go to improve it.

A lot of companies usually add additional things to the income to compensate for the heavy taxation. Company cars are a good example, other popular ones are meal vouchers and net amounts. It's how my gross wage of 2800 euros turns out as +2100 euros net lmao.

>>26570635
I do pensioensparen just to flex on the taxman desu. Who cares about returns, gimme dat 25% rebate taxie.

>>26567991
>But 30% at cashing out, awful
That's a flat tax, considering the french fiscality that's an unexpected gift

>>26570823
based

>>26570635
>>26570685
I'm not saying it should be the only thing you should invest in, you're limited to a maximum of €1270 anyway. But it has a place in a diversified portfolio. If you want to spend each and every euro you can spare in a high risk investment, sure. If you want to spread that risk, then pensioensparen is worth it to spend the little maximum amount of €106 per month in.

>it inflates big time
That's the entire point of an investment.

I'm also sensing both of you are zoomers which would explain the resentment of any investment that hasn't got the potential to go x100 in a year.

>go to finance ministry website
>background is orangutan monke lips and fingers

I'm getting so sick and tired of this diversity shit being plastered everywhere.

>>26565908

I get assraped every month by the gigantic fucking tax they put on your salary, al that money goes to the worst political sysytem in the world, fuck this shithole and fuck brussels especially. Most people arround here are blind when it comes to crypto anyway.

>>26570982
I guess pensoeinsparen is good if you are a brainlet that cant spot good investments on his own.

>>26570982
>>it inflates big time
i was talking about the euros you get back at the end.

>>26570982
I've been in Pricos (KBC) for over 10 years (which is tak-23), meaning I could cash out now.

Wondering if I should.

>>26571299
>299▶
>>>26570982
the purchasing power of the euros you get back *.

even if you 2x your total input over 30 years you will have don shit cause inflation has robbed you. pensioensparen looks attractive until you know how the financial systems work. its a scam you are being scammed. you think you get benifits but you get a shit return actually.

>>26571271
You're such a big fat autist lol.

>>26571347
and you are poor and will stay poor : )

>>26570236
>but the military will teach you nothing except what to know for the military.
So really it's useless to sign up for cyber security

>>26571271
You're not reading what I wrote. If you're not risk averse and you want to go balls deep in investments with an inherent risk then you shouldn't look at pensioensparen. If you're somewhat risk averse, then it absolutely has a place in a portfolio alongside any other investments. Especially the tax deductions make it somewhat attractive. You're a brainlet for calling anyone who doesn't go all in on crypto and stocks a brainlet.

>>26569544
Its indirectly taxable because if you cash said swap out, you basically bought and sold in the process of swapping.
This also resets the 12 month holding period everytime you do it, for countries like Belgium, Germany.

Slovenia = 0% tax if you trading time is less than 1/3 of a year (basically you can trade up to 4 months a year to be considered a HODLer)

=0% tax

>>26569544
>Ireland
33% cap gains, 1270 euro allowance, crypto to crypto taxes.

>>26571444
>You're a brainlet for calling anyone who doesn't go all in on crypto and stocks a brainlet.
no you are a brainlet for signing a contract that binds you to put money into an account for 30 years, which you can only get back out after 30 years and you have to pay 10pct tax on it. My dad is about to finally get the money back he invested in "pensioensparen". it would be better if he had invested in any stock or commodity at all instead of doing pensioensparen. gold, real estate, stocks, it all had better return on average than pensioensparen.

he got robbed.

The Netherlands

>>26570411
Dude, 7% is dogshit growth. I understand where you come from, I was more or less in your position a year ago, but if you actually apply yourself a little, and delve deeper, and realise that you lose 4-8% of purchasing power every year (vs scarce assets such as stock, crypto, real estate and so on) you realise that you need to offset this inflation at the very least and that you actually have to outgrow it to even make money.
7% is not going to cut it.
My best tips for you, from a german, rather conservative investor (although I am invested heavily into bitcoin)
Buy the iShares Clean Energy ETF or the Lyxor New Energy ETF, because there is a secular shift towards renewables and heavy government spending into the sector.
You also want at least some safety net, so buy some Emerging Markets and World Index ETF (these give you exposure to the broader global market).
Buy some Square Stock, maybe look up ARK Invest Funds, theyre doing pretty well. And yeah, buy some bitcoin. The price is kind of depressed now, which is good for an entry.
You can easily make 15% a year with a strategy like that. 15% of your Portfolio in Bitcoin will give you good exposure without too much risk.

>>26569851
You do. When you reinvest and make a crypto to crypto trade, you have to pay 33% taxes on that trade.

So if you want to be safe put it away after every trade in tether so you don’t have more tax than you can pay in case of your coins collapsing.

>>26571937
don't forget to add that Bitcoin goes up, on average 200pct per year and the SNP500 (complete index) does 7pct a year.

can you give any tips on good companies to invest in in Germany? I am trying to get a stock of every european country. I got Nokia few days ago. I was thinking about potentially Deutche bank, cuz they tanked so hard. might be a good bet right now no? give suggestions please for German stonks.

>>26571752
Does "net wealth" refer to the capital you cash out?

>>26571583
It would be retarded if that was your main form of investment. It's literally meant to be a risk free side basket you put money in and let it grow and never look at til you're retired, you only put €990 in a year. It doesn't matter what other markets outperform it, the main appeal is the tax deductability every year (the less I hand over to the government the better).

>>26571232
>Seperate from Wallonia
>Nuke Brussels

>>26571583
Of course you can't access it easily, it is meant as a long term investment that serves as an additional funds to use when you're retired, it makes sense they restrict access to it up until you're actually retiring. Hence the name pensioensparen.

You're also not taking into account the tax deductions which serve as an additional yearly income. You need to add that into account when thinking about the total returns.

And once again, the maximum amount you can put in it is limited. I hope you're able to invest more than a maximum of €106/month anon? Everything you mention in your post has inherently more risk or requires larger amounts of cash to get into (real estate). So for the average person, who doesn't want to actively trade, pensioensparen IS relevant in a portfolio alongside other investments. Now if you're not satisfied with the returns on it, you can go all in on other investments. But in a DIVERSIFIED portfolio it has a place, and it's still way better than putting everything on a savings account which is still the primary way people in this country store their capital (together with their house).

>>26572111
>I am trying to get a stock of every european country.
Are you 12 years old and using your dad's credit card on Robin Hood or something?

>>26571752
Belgians... why not just move to the Netherlands?
Living in The Hague in a beautiful city next to the ocean...?

>>26572206
>(the less I hand over to the government the better).
trust me, these setups make you THINK you are being smart. but they aren't. you give just as much or probably more to the gobermint in the end.

>>26572316
no, im trying to support european companies. pleb

>>26572326
Will sink in 500 years.
im moving to ardennes or switzerland

>>26572468
Easier te renounce Belgian citizenship and moving to Netherlands instead of Switzerland...

>>26572335
its not about outsmarting anyone, it's an incentive of the government (hence the yearly tax reduction) to save up your own retirement and not rely on uncertain future laws for retirementplans. It's common sense to do this, a couple people i know that work in banking or insurance company do it.

>>26572326
Property is isanely expensive

>>26572111
You really want to stay clear of banks. I am not even saying theyre a bad business, because they obviously know and manipulate the very business. But they dont give a crap about shareholders. Banks are overleveraging themselves because they know they will be bailed out either way, so they just go harder and harder. But this does not bode well for shareholder equity.
I honestly would steer clear of German stocks, me personally, I dont buy German companies, theyre almost all subsidized by the taxpayer to even be competetive and the history of hostile takeovers in this country is pretty damning.
Maybe look into Evotec or something, they seem to be doing well, but this is just a hint, I dont really have any interest in directing you.

>>26572138
No, there is no tax for cashing out
If you hold 100k of crypto or 100k of fiat you will pay the same tax every year

Can anyone here give some good (English) resources regarding the state of the European economy, alongside with stock related info of European companies? Most of the info I find online is related to the American market.

>>26567848
I'm a fucking cashier in Belgium and I make more than you.

>>26568206
They cancelled the speculation tax because investors were moving a shitload of money out of the country.
They've made a quick calculation and came to the realisation that this tax was actually costing the state money instead of passive income to the treasury.

>>26573191
De Croo is bringing it back. Gotta keep those old people fed and vaccinated!

>>26572658
>it's an incentive of the government
i don't think you can outsmart the goverment by signing in on things that they provide. but ok yeah its still better than just having money in a bank account. kinda.

>>26572723
okerino

>>26573191
based

you do only need to pay tax on profit right?

If i invest 10k and get 10k out i'm good right?

>>26573318
no fucking way. a liberal introducing a speculation tax? u are a retarded faggot? t. work in political law.

>>26568756
I would kill to only have to work 20hrs a week. Is that normal ? I'm an amerimutt and working 40 hrs a week just to scrape by is normal here.

>>26573318
Rest assured, he's already got the plans in place to replace the leaches. Don't forget that he enabled a God damn Iraqi as our immigration minister!
Vandenbroucke's hands are still black as coal. Don't ever forget that.

>>26573566
yes.

>>26565908
Luxembourg, 0 tax after 6 months
Portugal, not even declarable lmao

>>26569924
prachtig, de enige reden waarom ik alleen van crypto naar crypto trade :p

>>26573992
Veel plezier met je 33% belastingen.

>>26565908
>Is there a more based country on earth?

Any country that isn't run by a pedo mafia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux

>>26571271
pensioenspare, allemal leuk en wel tot ze de regels van het spel veranderen en dan sta je daar! Koop gwn goud of crypto and let it be. Gaat je beter uitkomen dan pensioensparen.

>>26565908
This is why I didn't have to pay anything when I cashed out

>>26565908
malta

>>26574188
Story?
How much, when, whom did you tell, etc.

>>26573992
lel, bij mij zullen ze niet komen aankloppen. Ik heb ook vrienden dat bij de belastingen werken. De vraag ook doorgegeven 2 weken geleden. Nog geen antwoord gehad. Ik haal dan ook niets af en zal ook niets aangeven lol

>>26574236
400 EUR in chainlink 2018
cashed out 10k+- in summer 2020

>>26574290
You didn't notify your bank?

I guess ~10k isn't enough to set off their alarm bells.

>>26574260
>De vraag ook doorgegeven 2 weken geleden. Nog geen antwoord gehad.
Nee we zijn je nu enkel aandachtig aan het volgen. Ons antwoord komt binnenkort :^)

>>26574290
topkek tuurlijk voor zo'n scheet starten die joden van de belastingsdienst hun pc niet op. de meeste oudjanetten hier zitten al sinds eind 2017 in Stinkie Linkie dus hebben 200k of meer in crypto.

>>26569439
yes shitty stations but we have one of the most dens nets in europe, you can get almost anywhere by train, bus etc so yeah upkeep is expensive with that many stations

>>26574317
No, just asked tax services if I had to pay taxes for this or not.
They said it's a good-father-long-hold thingy and it's not taxable.

>>26574317
Bij KBC maken ze geen problemen met bedragen onder 10k

>>26565908
Bro, but do you still have to declare that amount or can you just forget about it after you cash out?
Let's say you hold for 2 years and cash out, do you have to tell them you cashed out?

>>26574428
oudjanetten kek

>>26574359
We zijn geen am*rikanen

>>26574439
No joking?
This is actually pretty big, because apparently there isn't much information on precedent.
Can you proof?

>>26574497
I think it's better to declare it, yes.

>>26574359
lolled, me twat ze worden betaald zullen ze zeker geen extra werk leveren. prolly not

>>26574509
lol

>>26574509
>verwacht dat ik mijn eigen memes maak
ik heb wel betere dingen te doen

>>26574428
>200k
hiervoor was ik te laat
maar ben al blij met men 10k

>>26574667
een gegeven paard niet in de mond kijken. Als ik mijn Greed niet zo vaak had laten overnemen dan was mijne stack ook al groter. Ge moogt zo niet denken ;)

>>26574667
>>26574439

Aan wie heb je dat trouwens gevraagd?

Is degiro really the only good app broker for yuro's? The android reviews are shitting on it and it still has fees

>>26574428
haahhah

>>26574497
No you do NOT have to declare if like you said you just held it for more than a year and didn't trade an excessive amount.

Fiscal advice to all "goede huisvader" anons:

1. Keep an export of all your transactions/withdrawals. Print these.

2. like a previous anon said report your addresses to the CAP if you have a ton of money on them, even if it is a hardware wallet, these are considered bank accounts. Print the email/letter traffic.

3. Fill out pic related

Keep these in a folder and lock it in a drawer. This is your solid defense file against any fiscus who may come around.

>>26569955
>Just start a business yourself, get a nice accountant.
So I moved to Belgium to take a job and they made me register as self-employed and submit an invoice every month. I always thought I was getting ripped off but I'm beginning to hear that maybe this is a good thing? I still pay close to 50% in taxes+social security despite only earning 40k, but are you telling me it would be even worse if I was regularly employed?
Anyway, I've been worrying about how to handle crypto on my tax return but if crypto-to-crypto definitely doesn't need to be declared then that's a load off my mind. I have an accountant but I'm not convinced he has a clue what he's doing, so I'm fully expecting to get screwed when the time comes to cash out. Need to make a lot of money and find a specialist accountant, I think.

>>26575586
>Fill out pic related
That's not a fill-out document.

>>26575586
>Wat is uw beleggingsstrategie
See, this is something I don't really know how to answer. For about 80% of my stack, it's buy and hold. But I keep a little bit for flipping shitcoins and degenerate margin trading. So how would I be taxed? Would I be able to get the 0% rate for the crypto I held, and only pay the higher rate for the rest? Or does the gambling stack contaminate everything? Does it make a difference if I keep them in separate wallets?

>>26575759
same, i have so many shitty transactions over the years to random ETH adresses i can't literally find any info on that back

>>26569590
netherlands will annex you again

Veel Belgen op/ Biz/ dat weten we dan ook weer wagmi

>>26575596
>I still pay close to 50% in taxes+social security despite only earning 40k, but are you telling me it would be even worse if I was regularly employed?
At those rates, not sure. You were definitely cheaper for the company to employ tho, try getting a raise.

>>26575888
amai seg mannekes wie had da zien aankomen

commenting to say hi to all my fellow Belgian frens

>>26575943
Ikke ni eigenlijk

>>26575943
Brabanders fret bjittn aub.

>>26574968
https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/belastingaangifte
Kan namen enzo niet herrinere maar heb daar contact met opgenomen

>>26575956
HI fren alles bon

>>26574535
Ask the services yourself like I did if you don't believe me >>26576039

>>26576038
goed, hbu fren

>>26576038
Hanlooo vrien. Hanloooooo.
Binnekort zijn wij de joden!

>>26576102
Hey, you're pretty much confirming what I said in OP.
Just trying to make sure I don't get memed on by the jeannet itt who said it's unrealistic.

>>26576119
Bwa cavakes, hopen op diene gigantische bull run.

welkom welkom fellow degens

>>26575888
heb sex

>>26575903
>You were definitely cheaper for the company to employ tho
Oh yes, I figured that out pretty early.
>try getting a raise.
Haha, no.
I feel ripped off because there was nothing about this in the job ad and they just sprang it on my on the first day. There's even an article in my contract that says I "insisted" on this arrangement and wouldn't have taken the job otherwise, so I guess they've previously had people trying to sue them or something.
Anyway, one advantage even at this rate is that I can take on other contracts too if I want to wage some more, so I can sometimes bring in a bit more. And charging 21% VAT monthly but only having to pay it to the state every three months sometimes comes in handy when good investment opportunities come along.

>>26576225
>sex
*geslachtsgemeenschap

>>26576253
seks

>>26569439
well at least our government isnt up our asses about how our own fucking houses are supposed to be like with you stupid dutch cunts ga wat meer kaas en boereworst eten

>>26576225
heb seks nooitneuk
(have sex incel)

>>26576408
Kek daar ist idd ni beter

>>26575759
You would pay 0 on the amount you held, strongly adviced to keep it in seperate wallets.

>>26569439
>die erker op de hoek
comfy oetz

>>26576038
>>26576160
tres cool, amai
gebaseerd

>>26576514
onvrijwillig celibatair = oncel

>>26576725
kek

Wa ist beste om US aandelen te kopen vanuit België? Kheb een bolero account gemaakt want ik heb verstaan dat als je een buitenlandse makelaar gebruikt dat je zelf uw belastingen moet doen.

>>26576598
Very nice. Going to set up a new Metamask for my gambling stack now and leave the other one long-term.
I'm guessing leveraged spot trading would be taxed at full rate, right? That's where I've made most money.

>>26576887
Koop gewoon fondsen nerd

>>26576887
ga gwn op een app zoals trading 212 en betaal niets ipv de kbc te steunen

>>26576887
Binck Bank

>>26575221
Belgian degiro user here.
Depends on what you buy, I don't use other brokers to compare with

>>26565908
filled to the brim with niggers, sandniggers, chinks, truly based

>>26577033
using degiro but thinking of switching to >>26577011

>>26577033
Wanted to add this

>>26577238
degiro heeft een 2 euro flat fee + kleine transactie kost. het heeft geen nut om voor minder dan 3000 euro in 1x te kopen.

>>26577050
>chinks
god I wish

>>26577033
>>26577238
Might try trading212 then, looks like quite the fees. I only wanna fuck around with 100 euro max for fun

>>26577350
Maar die fee telt enkel voor Belgische/EU aandelen? Heb dat niet moeten betalen voor Tesla...
Maar zal vanaf nu wat meer sparen en per 3000+ inleggen dan, thanks voor de info

>>26577011

is there a catch with trading212?
except for the fact that (((they))) get my data?

>>26575586
>are you active on forums in the crypto community?
I pretty much live on 4chan lol.
How do you answer this to avoid getting taxed?

>>26577780
er is de 2 euro flat fee voor elke transactie + een kleine percentage van het aankoopbedrag voor degiro en dan is er nog een taks die al direct naar Belgie staat gaat... omdat je een Belg bent lol. wat een scam

Ik koop meestal in brokken van 5k om de kost wat te dekken.

>>26578006
not that i know of
and if you use any technology at all ((they))) probably already have tons of your data, except this time you're making money off it and not just consuming services

>>26578006
im reading reviews on 212.

Found a pretty scathing review of trading212 on reddit as one of the first results. I'm happy with paying <10 euros of trading fees on degiro, where I have more than 700 in gains so far.

>>26578128
You realize you're anonymous right?

Dries is een stinky linkie

>>26578493
degiro is fine if you invest decent chunks in one go. you cant go on there and throw 100 euros in every few weeks though. that will fuck you over cause of the flat fee 2 eur

>>26578806
what if they take my computer?

>>26574260
Awel ja, breng ze nog wat op ideeën!

Rofl, this thread is full of niggers trash advertising
Don’t believe in this scam if you want to save your portfolio
They still try to get new retards for their scam pools and bases systems
But I know one thing, only one top rebase protocol now - Base Protocol, so I don’t believe in fake trash

>>26578836
encrypted hard drive.

>>26578836
Just use a vpn

>>26578826
Hij geeft binnenkort een reddit AMA op Belgium2
en Guy D'haese volgende maand

>>26570291
Most countries don't charge currency to currency gains if held for more than 1 year
The eu regulated crypto as currency, so it isn't taxable in countries like Belgium, Germany and Austria

>>26578826
hahaha, wat een kanjer

>>26578826
Gebaseerd

>>26568108
>>26568378
Alright, that sounds much better indeed

>>26578826
Zalig

>>26575596
It depends on how much they're willing to pay for you. For only 40k a year it seems to be better to be salaried, that way you'll have all the social benefits + certain job security. Freelancing is sort of a trade off, where the positive thing is you can earn a lot more money. In your case, the trade off doesn't seem to be so positive. What line of work are you in?

>>26569544
Cute cat.

>>26575888
Are there any French speaking Belgians on here? Or is their English too bad to browse 4chan.

>>26581073
They don't have internet down there :/

>goes up 220% in 2 weeks
>dumps 40%
wow amigos it's totally over
don’t follow these shittokens
follow XSN and get rewards without losing risks

>>26581073
They're not evolved enough to have discovered the blockchain technology yet.

>>26581073
Walloons aren't allowed internet time during the week.

>>26581073
I am. And I’m richer than all those faggots right here.

How much do you guys pay your accountant? I pay him 100€/month (without VAT) and I feel ripped.

Got my ruling approved 2 weeks ago. 0% taxes on my 25k Link.

>>26583378
Please tell us how you did so we can do the same.
Do we have to pass by an accountant?
Is it long? Which points did you bring to them?

>>26568692
what about dividends and rents? How are they taxed?

>>26583378
>>26583473
seconded

>>26583473
I consolidated all my link to a wallet about 2 years ago. That wat i could prove i held 2 years. Then i requested a ruling on basis of the 16 question on the website from dvb. I used an accountant. Took 3 months and now have a ruling Until 15 jan / 22

>>26581073
Me

>>26580752
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm doing EU politics-related consultancy/research work. Non-profit. So I don't expect to ever make much money doing this.
>>26582840
Mine is €150/month and he barely lifts a finger. I'm definitely getting ripped off but I keep putting off looking for another. No idea what the going rate is or what would be a 'good' price.

>>26568032
Expat in CZ. I pay 0% capital gainz tax, 3500 euro wage after all taxes. lmao at tax pigs.

>>26584416
Where are you from originally?

Must be mind-blowing moving to a country with nothing but white people.

>>26584290
Damn dude, I heard before from people that these various EU related non-profits are leeching off their people. A friend of mine's girlfriend also works for one of these, and from what I hear she's also getting paid badly while they expect her to work a lot of hours.

Why are you doing this btw? Do you hope to eventually get one of these internal EU jobs that pay really well?

>>26579030
in finland every transaction of crypto is taxable. Crypto to crypto and also if you buy a product with btc you need to pay 30-34% tax. Harsh

>>26571482
based Slovenia I heard the weed is also legal

>>26575586
>welk percentage van uw totaal vermogen heeft u geinvesteerd in crypto?
ik vrees dat ik eraan hang met deze als ge een flink deel van uw waarde geinvesteerd hebt
jammer want als ik dat in boomer aandelen deed hadden ze die vraag niet

ook voor zover ik de vage publicatie volg is het aangeven van een account bij een exchange nog altijd een grijze zone voor het CAP en het aangeven van uw eigen wallet valt al helemaal buiten hun ouderwetse regels
heeft iemand eigenlijk een link waar dit wel eenduidige wordt aangetoond?

>>26585082
Yeah, the whole thing is one big scam. They have thousands of clueless graduates desperate to get into the game, so they can pretty much do whatever they like.
I'm doing it because I did a meme degree, never really knew what I wanted to do so just followed by interests, and then this was the only job I could find. It's supposedly "prestigious" and I'm doing very well by the standards of people who care about such things: "making a name for myself", etc. But I don't really care about that. I'd rather have money than fame or glory. I will probably try to move sideways into some kind of more promising consultancy route but I don't really expect to be making decent money at any point in my career.
>Do you hope to eventually get one of these internal EU jobs that pay really well?
That was the original idea, but I'm from the UK, so you can see how well that's going.

>>26585708
My friend in Brussels is part of this 'EU bubble' via his girlfriend. I went to some parties with them and I indeed got that vibe when talking to the people there.

Even with a meme degree you can do ok anon. I have a liberal arts degree myself and have been working as a BA for a couple of years now. It's a popular route for a lot of people who want to go in IT wihtout having a technical background. Just max out your Excel and sql skills and don't be socially awkward.

>>26585342
where did you get that from?

>>26586921
Yes, everyone is overworked and demoralised but the *prestige* draws them in and they put up with all sorts of shit.
Honestly, the work is interesting and in some ways it suits me very well. But the conditions are fucked and not likely to get better. I have a meme degree in the sense that it doesn't point me towards an obvious career path but it's still a pretty good result from a very good university, so I may be able to get myself into something pretty good with the right contacts.
What's a BA? Business analyst?

>>26567848
jesus, higher taxes than here (Netherlands) or you don't know math. Yeah the infrastructure is shit lmao, you can literally feel when you enter the country.
>>26573717
To be fair, in Murica there's lots of ways to make it big. In EU you get fucked up the ass if you get somewhat succesful.

>>26587254
oh it's only decriminalized

>>26565908
does this still count if you add funds to the wallet? Like if I have a separate btc wallet and I add btc there from time to time, but hodl for 1 year without cashing out

>>26588744
Ofcourse, that's dollar cost averaging
Btc is bad investment tho, fundeamentals are looooong gone. Pure speculation

>>26577350
Expert in gatpraat? 500 per maand in ETF's is al vrijwel ideaal qua TX kost op degiro

>>26589441
what's stopping me from having a wallet with only stablecoin (tether or whatever) that I fill after every profit and cashing out after one year?

>>26590238
Nothing is stopping you. It's all uncharted territory, the huisvader story is pathetic from a legal standpoint

>>26590813
There are exchanges beyond the EU that only trade in stable coins and crypto to crypto.
What if you day trade for a year, but sell everything into stablecoins, then keep them for a year like anon said >>26590238 ?