/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>25724283
Throughout history, many commodities have been used as the means of exchange. The history of the free market has demonstrated that precious metals are the superior means of exchange, and thus stores of value.

Crypto 'currency' will never be a functioning store of value or means of exchange. There are many reasons and deficiencies, but the primary one will simply be that they are not physical goods with any inherent value. Crypto's with no utility beyond that of a means of exchange, are totally arbitrary and their demand is only as a speculative digital asset in which participants are hopeful they can sell for a higher price at a later date. There is no reasonable expectation that cryptocurrencies will have any form of demand other than as a speculative asset. Their prices may rise dramatically in nominal prices(equally worthless fiat), but their future real term values will be worthless.

>No one wants to exchange their goods and services, the results of their hard labour, for an arbitrary means of exchange, such as pieces of paper, with no utility or inherent value.

t. Doesn't live in the west

Ok but Ive already reached my annual $25,000 after-tax contribution to my retirement fund here in Australia, and I have more money coming in which of I have nothing else to invest in, because Im already invested in the global markets with the retirement fund, my only investment options are Cryptocurrency speculation, investing in someones business, or buying an investment property.

1. I dont want to buy an investment property for multiple reasons, 2 of the top reasons being I dont feel right about turning a housing into investment, housing should be kept as low as possible, so people can move out and buy a house and have their own life/family, and I dont want to contribute to the ever increasing incapability of people to do such a thing.

2. I dont want to invest in someones business, I dont even know anyone who is starting a business anyway.

3. Crypto is an easy way to invest my additional disposable income after my normie investment (retirement fund) is maxed out for the year.

So the Crypto could be worthless in the future? Ok, well Ive didn't bet the roof over my head on it, I still maxed out my retirement fund contributions, so Im not entering retirement having lost all my savings to crypto going to $0.


If you keep normie investments and autistic crypto investments, you're safe, just don't go all on 1.

>>25724367
The USD, the worlds primary paper fiat currency, has lost over 98% of its purchasing power since 1914. It may be widely used as money, but it certainly isn't a successful store of value.

>>25724283
Rather obvious yet good to state. Well put for why fiat is usury and something like aave shows exactly why what youre saying is true and fiat will soon be gone in entirety

>>25724543
Not to mention that fiat usury, i.e. the existence of fiat, lead directly to the concept of taxation

Nobody knows when this future will be, but the volumes and the increase in such volumes through every 4 year cycle, are an indicator that there is an extremely low probability that said future will happen in our lifetimes.

>>25724584
The future is now. It is a great reset

>>25724283
I agree with almost everything.
>The means of exchange can only be commodity(another good). No one wants to exchange their goods and services, the results of their hard labour, for an arbitrary means of exchange, such as pieces of paper, with no utility or inherent value.

You mean pieces of paper, backed by government that is backed by law that is reinforced by structure?

You see it IS NOT simply paper..

>>25724518
Yeah, that wasn't my point. The USD is in freefall now. But people happily slave away in exhange for their time to earn physical paper or digital money in their bank account. I agree with most of the post, but I think that particular paragraph could be phrased better.

Fuck it, I'm selling

>>25724660
Hopefully you mean bartering your bitcoin into link, rather than selling bitcoin into fiat. Have you learned nothing from op?

>>25724283
Thank you, captain obvious

>>25724785
Damn, son. I will I was as bullish in crypto as you. Teach me master.

>>25724612
The cumulative development of a medium of exchange via the free market is the only way a successful money can be established.

All the goods in an economy have varying degrees of 'value'. Every good is unique, and the forces of supply and demand will determine which good is most marketable, and thus which good will become the means of exchange.

The government is powerless to conjure up 'value' from nothing, much like you and I are. We must work to produce and consume.

The word 'fiat' is derived from latin; 'let it be done' ,from something to nothing, arbitrary value by royal decree.

I cant quite be bothered at this time explaining why fiat money is not viable now or never will be, suffice to say, there is reason why no fiat money has ever succeeded, and why fiat money that exists today already HAS collapsed in purchasing power relative to generations past, and will continue to do so.

>>25725118
So what's your deathbed portfolio?

>>25725118
You my fren don't understand that when you speak it should start with ''theoretically speaking'' because this practice by the global banking system and governments systems are telling another story backed by the trust of the 'people' to CONTINUE conducting trade with PAPER.

So whatever you say may or may not be like and or so but paper money is not going away for the next 20 years MINIMUM.

>>25725161
I have been in small cap commodity miners, primarily silver and uranium. Last year was an amazing year for me, and this year will be even better.

>>25725246
Lol

Who gives a fuck we are here to make money this bullrun and dump on the normies

>>25725246
The purchasing power of this paper is decreasing and will continue to do so, rapidly. Anyone holding it as a store of value or investing in fiat denominated assets is going to lose.

I cant believe there are people on /biz/ unironically defending fiat currency and recommending people continue to stay in the system.

>>25724288
>it's the same old regurgitated "inherent" i.e. industrial input valuation of metals
Precious metals would diarrhea shit the bed if their prices were adjusted to reflect only their value as inputs. They would sell for little more than the cost to produce them. The price being what it is indicates that merely being exchangeable and widely interpreted as money has value in itself. And there is also no basis to conclude that a good has no utility because it lacks some feature you define at will as creating utility. Utility is consumer-dependent and notoriously difficult to quantify. It is a false assumption to conclude that the only utility in a cryptocurrency is to trade them for profit, as there exists cryptocurrencies in which realizing gains is very improbable, yet substantial demand for them exists regardless (ie stablecoins). The motivation for purchase is clearly the usefulness of the payment protocol and not some greater fool theory.
>>25725118
There is no mandate that cryptocurrencies be used as a means of exchange or for any strict purpose beyond what the market uses them for. This happens all the time. When, for example, the SUV is created to be an off-road vehicle and is marketed for that purpose, yet finds the greatest demand from people who will never use them in this capacity. Many people will attempt to put crypto in a box and say well it is X and X are all these things and it's very different from those things. Not realizing that the actual way goods are used is decided by individual consumer preferences.

>>25725316
You are a moron and don't understand that even if the value decreases for purchase decreases for sales
SO you stupid friend

If sell my product for 100k and buy apartment for 100k
if the value decreases or increases SO DOES THE VALUE OF MY SALE

So little moron you know shit about shit. You can't udnerstand how simple inflation is controlled.

There are far far smarter people than you please stop being stupid and talk before you think.

>>25724288
People are willing to spend X amount of dollars on gold for sentimental reasons. How is that superior to bitcoin as a store of value?

>>25725547
>to reflect only their value as input
Stopped reading Marx herp derp lets just choose values for stuff
>>25725552
Its almost like uniswap can do exactly what youre describing i.e. readjusting value of two commodities based on the swapping in and out of a liquidity pool with no fiat intermediary

>>25725645
You have not understood my post at all. The "gold has inherent value" argument I see constantly is referring to the uses of gold as an input in industrial processes such as to produce semiconductors. But the price of gold on the market is a far cry from comparable metals that are not seen as money, and are just as hard and costly to produce. Why should uranium sell for $3/lb but gold for $33k/lb?

>>25725708
You dont get to determine why theres a demand for gold. No its not only semi conductors you autistic retard. Christians covet gold for their marriage ceremony in the form of a ring, jews covet gold as coins, watch makers use gold, scientists need gold to withstand high pressure in something called a UPLC (liquid chromatography) as its the only substance solid yet malleable to create a seal at those pressures

>>25725794
We can observe the proportion of demand for gold that is for investment and the proportion that is for everything else. It's not hard. Subtract the proportion for investment and you realize the "inherent value" is far lower than the going price. And realize that there is quantifiable value in something being recognized as money.

>>25724283
Didn't read, not selling you turbonigger

>>25725856
Incorrect because youre assuming it wont inherently rise against USD, which it will. Look at gold vs bitcoin, gold is way down. Look at gold vs housing, gold is about even -- oh interesting almost like neither old as thing changed, so the 3rd correlated factor changed, i.e. fiat value

Debunked 20 times a day for 10 years. The rules that allowed suns to convert energy to gold and dictate that gold is more robust than other elements are "arbitrary".
We made up new rules that allow scarce digital assets to exist and one is more robust than all the others.
The main reason a fisherman wants to exchange his fish for gold is because fish rots but gold is robust, secure against the elements and time. Now that we have a robust digital asset in comparison the gold is more hassle than it's worth.

>>25725989
Talk about arbitrary, jesus Christ what a load of shit I've just read. You actually think your 'digital' assets have value because they're 'scarce'? Just lol. You think the only reason a fisherman wants to exchange his fish for gold is because gold lasts longer? It's because he's exchanging the goods his produced for another good that he can exchange for other shit he'll need later. Fuck me this crypto shit has created so many pseuds I can't wait for the next crash.

>>25726188
>have value because they're 'scarce'
I didn't say that. Digital scarcity didn't exist before Bitcoin but that's not enough. It needs to be robust, resistant to the elements including time which no crypto is compared to BTC, they will all rot away like dead fish. No matter what the tech developments will be the Bitcoin chain will be maintained and secured.
>You think the only reason a fisherman wants to exchange his fish for gold is because gold lasts longer?
I said the main reason. It's pretty much the only reason gold is preferred to anything else. You could use anything including rocks or feces but the supply is so high you would need warehouses full of rocks to store the value of a few fish and rocks do actually decay and shed dust, feces decays pretty fast, just like shitcoins.

>>25724283
bump

>>25724283
The reason gold has value is this: For most of history gold never had any pragmatic uses, it was just there to look pretty and symbolize wealth. The reason it symbolizes wealth is that it takes a lot of time, resources, and labor to extract gold, meaning that anybody who could get it in its final form would have to have power over other people and that process of extraction to get it. People only extracted it because they valued it. Humans are the locus of value. They give things value. Gold and silver being valuable is just what humans decide. Gold and silver being valuable is lindy.

>>25724288
>Crypto's with no utility beyond that of a means of exchange, are totally arbitrary and their demand is only as a speculative digital asset
In the case of Ethereum, ETH is required to run ANY code on the ethereum blockchain. That alone has inherent value. And OP is a faggot

>>25724288
People only buy shiny metals because they think others will buy later for more money. They believe in it. There is no other utility.

>>25728016
Also gold symbolizes wealth because it doesn't degrade/corrode.

>>25728016

Also gold has a finite supply and it’s not able to be transmuted.

Well explained anon

>>25728584
>Also gold has a finite supply
No it doesn't. Wait until we go off planet. Gold market destroyed.

>>25724283
>>25724288
You've went and answered your own post.
> The free market will determine which commodity...
Gold as a true form of exchange hasn't been put in practice for hundreds of years, and therefore in its current state cannot be logically assessed as a viable tool of exchange. In our current climate gold is strangled by big banks and government empires from ever being anything that can be called 'free' in market, consider that bitcoin at its early (13 years old) current state is decentralized, available to all the world to exchange for easier than any other asset in the history of mankind. You already understand what it can and can never do, the maximum possible supply, and an extremely transparent market. Gold by comparrison is a shadowy ordeal in technically infinite abuntancy if asteroid mining, or large scale lab haldron production ever makes it to fruition, directly comparing it to bitcoins deflationary by nature system shows what we see in it. Relying on the argument that gold is backed by utility and labor and thus, will keep its inherent value, is frivolous as the bulk of its valuation has its backing is by numistic speculation. Similarly, one could argue that bitcoin is backed in at least some manor by that of encrypted energy alongside abstract investors. Looking at bitcoin via US dollar valuation is ultimately irrelrvant in the longterm. Its purpose and reputation will carry on only getting stronger by the second, while other cumbersome assets are exchanged for it right this moment, in the modern world. All as designed. In short: Gold is an outdated inferior, inconvenient means of transacting, storing, and investing in a sov. Bitcoin will eat gold alive, its already well on track Don't regret the time you have right now.

>>25728611

>>25728501
Are you fucking stupid?

Precious metals are extremely important in industrial means. >>25728501

>>25728611
This is also a stupid fucking argument because the costs associated with asteroid mining or whatever the fuck stupid neoliberal shit you think would destroy the precious metals market like wtf you understand it'd be millions and millions just to retrieve like. One fucking pound of gold from a source not of this planet do you even think for fucks sake

If its not on the periodic table, its not a store of value, simple as

just tell, is bitcoin goingto make me rich??

>>25724283
>The means of exchange(Money), is necessary to facilitate the indirect exchange system, which mankind developed as a solution to the inefficient barter system.

>>25724288
>0 utility
Trustless ledger, Neanderthal
>barter system inefficient
No it was impossible for a cobbler to determine how many shoes a house was worth

bump

>>25724283
It's honestly so funny to me how long ur explanation is. It's like youre trying to convince urself you understand. As your friend op you have severely overestimated your intelligence and don't understand this space at all. But hey thanks for explaining to all of us what you think "money" means.

>>25731345
AAAAAAAAAAA opinions like this are not valid. This is why feminism isnt okay. Not even our opinions are equal, women for example have the opinion words dont matter and truth isnt truth if someone says something with the wrong tone, explains with words she doesnt understand, or uses more words than instagram posts use

>>25724283
>the indirect exchange system, which mankind developed
It is adventurous to assert that the Semitic merchants of the Mediterranean Sea are completely part of mankind.

>>25731388
Let's shift this thread to talking about your views on feminism and Instagram. But man opnwas really jerkin himself off with this post. If this is a legitamite autistic shill than I will die happy

>>25731677
>offers no valid opinions on anything
>discussions involve how others act and others opinions
>deeply critical but again not offering a single counter point
You dont see anything wrong with this do you? You totally derailed the discussion so we can now discuss whom OP is as a person and if we find him credible. Meanwhile we men were having an actual discussion with our actual opinions about an actual subject.

>>25728615
delet

>>25731771
All you've done is offer valid opinions. that doesn't make them coherent or at all relevant. I'm basically telling YOU that op wrote a buncha dum shit about cave boomer tokens, and then offered an equally non coherent assumption about the future real value of a space that OP obviously doesn't comprehend. That assumtion is so easily disproven that it would be charity for me to explain it and it's been said already on here. The entire post is either ironic or and act of masturbation, or both.

>>25731345
>>25731677
>>25732152
>im so much smarter than you im not even gonna bother explaining myself.

>>25732152
>Refers to precious metals as boomer rocks

It's a good thing boomers love precious metals and have backed our currency with it and rejected Keynesian economics!

Fucking retard.

>>25732195
Omg op you came back, ur the real person I wanted to explain this too but that kid kept getting in the way... Ok here goes...

What is the future real term value of asteroid mining?

>>25729035
This is a completely inane post, and not an argument. No where has this explained how bitcoin can and will be a viable means of exchange and store of value.

>>25732240
>What is the future real term value of asteroid mining?

>He is naive enough to think he will see asteroid mining in his lifetime

Opinions discarded

>>25728725
They're nowhere near as valuable as the utilities of crypto in a digital world. But thats not where their value comes from. The value comes from them being valuable already. People acknowledge their value, and so give it value psychologically. If Bitcoin is valued at $100k, its valuable to that extent.

>>25732234
I was referring to the ect of barter with a commodification of metals (protostablecoins) as boomer "tokens"

U def have a small pp haha

>>25732279
What does my lifetime have to do with "future real value" your term btw

>>25732240
>Muh asteroid mining

Reddit nigger cringe

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-12-21/space-mining-on-asteroids-is-never-going-to-happen

>>25732294
A stranger on the internet said I have a small penis. This means he is right and I am wrong. Pack it up lads, bitcoins the new gold.

>>25732341
If I take your quote put of context I can quote you here "I have a small penis"

>>25732464
I'll be honest I don't thing any of you goons belong on biz

>>25732339
Let us assume asteroid mining becomes viable in a very optimistic 100 years time. Let us imagine that we can somehow extract enormous amounts of gold and silver from asteroids, bring them back to earth, and this is somehow economically viable.

Well, according to you, precious metals are boomer rocks which have no value anyway, so if they had just scoured the /biz/ archives and came across your wisdom, they could have saved themselves the trouble.

But if we return to the fantasy were this is occurring, we must have obviously innovated amazing new technologies that could have made space mining economically viable. These technologies will have required goods to produce, and these goods, the physical commodities, will be in high demand. Perhaps gold and silver, being the greatly versatile industrial metals that they are, played a great role in this production.

Im getting bored of spoon feeding you but the point im trying to make is - the free market will sort it all out for us. If vast amounts of gold and silver are indeed ever extracted, capitalists will have done so for a reason. It is doubtful that the new supply will dilute the purchasing power of existing stock on earth - because the lowered cost will now mean they can be used more industrially(increasing demand, and reducing supply)

>>25732464
SHUT THE FUCK UP

>>25732464
>>25732529
This is the caliber of person telling you to 'invest' in cryptocurrency and avoid precious metals.

>>25732693
Haha I never said anything like that. All I said was that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and that other guy has a small pp. I wanted to help you open your mind, but what it sounds like is that you are just frustrated with your investments lol

>>25728615
>>25728755
>>25732240
>>25732279
>>25732341
This is the Hayabusa2. It was built by Japans best and brightest over the course of 4 years.
It was launched in 2014 to collect 5.4 grams of surface dust from extreme near earth asteroid 162173 Ryugu.
Hayabusa2 returned to earth on december 6th 2020.

The cost to bring 5.4 grams of surface dust from an asteroid that is so close it's basically licking the earth was $179 000 000.
That's $33 150 000 per gram.

The distance from earth to 162173 Ryugu is 95 400 km.
The distance from earth to Psyche 16 (believed to contain gold) is 278 653 850 km.

It took Hayabusa2 4 years to take and deliver samples from 162173 Ryugu --- Psyche 16 is 2920 times further from the earth.

It would take 11 680 years for Hayabusa2 ($179m) to deliver 5.2 grams of gold from Psyche 16 to earth.


Have fun with your asteroid mining, anon!

>>25732825

>>25731345
this, stop bumping your blog post collection of opinions.

>>25732562
read >>25732825
also, it should be 17 520 years, not 11 680 years, my bad!

>>25732873
thanks for the bump

>>25725259
Oh, it’s a boomer rocks collector. Makes sense now. Enjoy your rocks, boomer. Sorry for bothering you.

>>25728615
Whoaaaaa shut it dooooooooown!

>>25724283
>Cryptocurrency is not a store of value
>This commodity will have qualities that ensure there is always demand
Maybe cryptocurrency is the commodity with the quality that ensures there is always demand because it is a store of value

>greatest wealth transfer from west to east
>russia and china
>gold for goods and services