/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>24790429
I rent in super nice neighborhood on the beach in California. My rent is the property tax payment of the house. Basically I feel like I got a good deal lol

I have researched this topic a lot in the past. Basically, you can't really say if you're financially better off in the end by renting or by buying. At least it's that way where I live (Germany). Also, since the laws are very tenant-friendly over here, I plan to rent for as long as I can. The only situation where I would consider buying property is if I'm absolutely sure I want to stay in the same place until retirement. That's only going to happen if I ever found a family and then owning your own property also kind of feels nice, independent of the financial aspect.

Even in cases when buying seems superior, its still hard to buy at the all time top, of all time, ever.

>>24790587
Being at the ATH is the norm rather than the exception though.

>>24790429
Why buy when your money can go to something that could literally 100x in a few quarters VS a house maybe, maybe 2x'ing within 5 years?

Seriously.

Look into EPIC before the ECR in Q1.

Housing market won't crash. Both are good options. Everyone is a winner.

Buy property to rent it out and make money nigger.

Look up "house hacking" it is the GOAT housing strat as long as you pick good tenants/"roommates"

>>24790752
>living with roommates like a college student and calling it a "hack"

>>24790429
Renting a house is not a bad choice if you think the housing market is inflated.

Buy Low Sell High. Rent rural and low while waiting for the dip period to buy low.

I have bought and sold multiple condos, co ops and am finally in a house while all of you guys have been deciding what to do.

>>24790973
How do you deal with the expensive HOA and insurance? How do you make the renting process easier? Do you hire a rental management company? If so, did you find paying a flat fee better than the renting %?

Thanks for the responses. House prices keep skyrocketing so I'm just gonna settle on renting soon.

Only other thing I'm wondering is how negotiable are rent prices? Is it possible to knock $100-200 off the rent if you lock-in a multi-year lease or have an excellent credit rating or something along those lines?

>>24790553
I used to live in Germany and fell for the renter meme for most of my young adult life. Big mistake. The Five Eyes (UK, USA, AUS, etc.) are very different from most parts of Europe like Germany where property is king. Owning a property is one of the big goals you need to achieve after your graduation and working at a job. Buying property, getting married, kids, etc. Property in the West will help you build up equity since it's treated as an asset and will help with your diversification strategy. Don't fall for the renter meme like I did, you're most likely not a German, and you're most likely not living in Germany so don't pretend like you're one. Snap out of it, get back to reality, and start setting some meaningful financial goals.

>>24791053
Have you considered buying a condo? I know the meme and ridicule and all, but look at >>24790973

>>24790587
Fuck me, it's just going to get worse isn't it? Maybe housing isn't so expensive, money is just worthless now. I kick myself almost every day for not buying in 2015.

I'd ask for housing whitepills but I'm tired of cope.

>>24791116
I have, but even condos have been climbing up to $350-400k here. The only condos cheaper than that are more or less apartments and I've been trying to avoid those specifically.

>>24791102
>I used to live in Germany and fell for the renter meme for most of my young adult life. Big mistake. The Five Eyes (UK, USA, AUS, etc.) are very different from most parts of Europe like Germany where property is king. Owning a property is one of the big goals you need to achieve after your graduation and working at a job. Buying property, getting married, kids, etc. Property in the West will help you build up equity since it's treated as an asset and will help with your diversification strategy.
You're probably right there that when it comes to political decisions, those typically go in favor of property owners.
>Don't fall for the renter meme like I did, you're most likely not a German, and you're most likely not living in Germany so don't pretend like you're one. Snap out of it, get back to reality, and start setting some meaningful financial goals.
Wie kommst du darauf, dass ich kein Deutscher bin?

If you are going to be an expat at some point then buying is the best. One of the main arguments against buying is that shelter is a sunk cost and even if you sell you will still need a place to live. Well if you are moving to a cheaper country you are hacking by building equity in an expensive country then selling and taking that purchasing power where it goes much much further.

>>24791124
No we are very close to collapse. Work from home is becoming the norm, violent riots in cities that the police and government have no interest in stopping, and major companies are leaving to low tax areas. This decade is going to be a major transition from Urban to Rural and suburban areas. As more and more people leave the cities, taxes in the cities will be raised to offset the loss in revenue which will exacerbate the problem. By 2030 or 2040, NYC, SF, LA, Toronto, etc. Will be like Detroit. Anyone buying property here is buying ATH and the bottom could literally be what Detriot housing prices are.

>>24790651
True, except if you buy in Japan in 1991, you would had been losing money for 25 years, and still not at break even after 30.

>>24791345
For a US example look at Detroit from 1970 to now. Thinking that it can’t happen to your city is a logical fallacy. SF and Seattle are already doing much more damage than Detroit ever did. Once tech leaves these cities they are doomed.

>>24790429
You never own a house. You're merely getting a fief by the government that might or might not get tax raped in the future. I don't think it will get worse in the US but in Germoney land taxes are ridiculously low and will be increased as a source of income for municipalities.

>>24791345
There was worse. See picture related.
The transportation revolution depressed house prices for decades due to the dramatic increase in land area from which people could commute to work.
Right now we're right at the eve of the next work revolution.
I'd be careful. It is just very hard to predict what will happen. All bets are off. If I were you I would at least wait one or two more years to see how the future of the cities and the workplaces will be.

>>24790973
>>24791116
>>24791146
Avoid condos at all costs. I'm trying to dump my condo right now and it's a pain in the ass. It's a penthouse in great shape, but the neighbor below is a hoarder with a massive, aggressive pit bull that is making the place hard to move. Her dog threatened me for years, and makes the place smell disgusting, so I had a cleaning company come in and make the common area less repulsive for buyers checking it out. It's obvious the dog urinates and defecates in her unit and there's nothing I can do to stop it. She literally filled our shared basement (my building is 4 units, 2 basements, 2 units each per basement) with cardboard, trash, etc. like a massive extensive rats nest until my other condo mates finally got through to her to clean up, because she disregarded any message related to cleaning the basement despite warnings from contractor after contractor that her trash and mess were creating fire and other hazards in the basement. This slowed down my ability to sell the unit by months, and now the condo market in my city is getting bad. Hoarder bitch is also friends with the other owner (woman) and after some behind the back conversation they had, both of them tried to get me to pay for cleanup because of some idiotic backwards logic they tried to deploy on me. They pressured apathetic guy owner of the 3rd unit to agree to this scheme. So my lawyer took a fat shit on them because what they were trying to do was not legal at all, of course they never bothered to read our HOA, and then scurried away like little cockroaches that just got exposed to bright light. Condos are literally a fucking clown show. Everyone else in the building has made this process so excruciatingly painful that I'm literally going to dump the price of my condo to spite them and drive the value of their units down. I have way more income than them, so they can go fuck themselves and enjoy their rotting shithole of a building thanks to retard hoarder pit bull woman.

Buy a house to rent to people.
Rent a place to live until you retire.
How many times do I need to tell this board. The value a mortgage, the very point of it, is the contracting of a wagie into the slavie. THE. VALUE. IS. THE. SLAVE. Not the house. Shop for the perfect slave. The house isn't as important.

Even if your slave only covers 80% you are buying a house at 80% off and the slave buys your house for you. Imagine cucking yourself by buying a house just to live in. Rent cheap place until you settle down and take fat shits on the floor when you leave. Landis says no dog? You get diagnosed with anxiety and get two. Real estate is a "fuck everyone else" game. The sooner you take that pill the better.

>>24791529
Are you advocating to become a landlord without positive cash flows? lel
If you can't break even now it won't get much better in the future.

>>24791529
Is the 80% a rule? 80% and above and you are coming ahead?

>>24791529
It amazes me that people reduce buying property to a "slave" contract because you either pay the bank or the government with property taxes. When you rent, you never see your money back. While you may end up being a "slave" in some regard to some entity while buying a house, the same thing occurs when you make any notable purchase. If you make good money and live in the suburbs or a rural area, you'd be retarded to not consider buying a home. People 5 years ago were giving the same advice, "don't buy it's going to crash". At some point you've got to bite the bullet and be done with it. Renting is and always will be for suckers.

>>24790429
Owning a house is like putting your money into savings. I keep trying to explain this to my dumb wife but she doesn't believe it and still wants to throw her money away to slumlords.

I was checking the house prices on redfin and surprisingly found out that even in most parts of in south Cali, the prices have not up too much and some around 3-4% or less often. then you had to deduct 10-15% for the selling the house and also pay property tax and CGT. So I am convinced that buying a house is not a good choice in terms of investment as you can make more than 4-5% and don't have to put down payment.

>>24791529
Thank you for those Red Pills based Anon.

>>24790429
>I've only got about $130k saved
Buy a modest house for $250k and pay it off asap. Then save up for a bigger place.

>>24791529
You're half based, half retarded

>>24791605
You wife is smarter than you. Buying a house is NOT savings, it is an investment.

>>24791668
It's both. If your house is paid off, you get to keep your future wages from then on while the house grows in value.

>>24790429
100%. Bought a house in '13. Because of this I'll be retired 17 years later. I'll be 43, this is a worst case scenario and without any other investments.

'13 was a good time to buy, but because of inflation, everything goes up. Barring the great recession you're usually golden.

Renting means you're throwing money away. Buying means in 10 years I'll have a half million dollar asset that I'll use for passive income.

If you have better ways of deploying capital, starting a business or something, then do that. Otherwise real estate. Unfortunately, through real wages stagnating and inflation which further divides the wealth gap, this is becoming more and more difficult. So buy some Bitcoin too. Cheers.

>>24791668
For most people it's actually consumption.
House owners are much more baited into expensive as fuck "upgrades" while renters are mostly sick with basic shit. Housing is part consumption and part investment.

My parents want me to purchase a house instead of renting an apartment for my job, but I have also thought of transferring offices in several years. My state is booming though so the prices are rising but I also wouldn't struggle selling it either.

>>24791715
Value goes up and so does taxes. I hate paying yearly maintenance fees on my investments. So I prefer to hold stocks and crypto. Both of which are ALSO at their ATH and historically perform better than housing. If homeowners can use the logical fallacy of past performance being an indicator for future performance than so can stock and crypto investors. Simply put if you think prices will keep going up forever then buy Bitcoin and QQQQ and you will be even more rich when you retire.

>>24791828
One advantage of buying property is that you can easily get cheap leverage by getting a mortgage which is not possible with most other investments. Other than that, I completely agree with you.

>>24791875
True, but then you have a mortgage on the property. Which half of the retards in this thread always claim they want to own it free and clear. I can also collateralize my crypto and stocks for extra leverage - it’s not as good as leveraging your house, but you can still do it.

>>24791796
Listen to your parents. Buy a house and sell it when you have to transfer. Otherwise you'll rent forever and flush all your money down the toilet.

>>24790429
I think that a lot of parents are starting to see that college educations ain't doin what it used to be, coupled with the outrageous tuitions nowadays, more are inclined to get their kids started on a house with down payment money.

And if they aren't they should be. Infinitely better for their kids future. You want to take on massive student debt and aren't going to school for engineering? Fine, pay for that on your own.

>>24791828
You're only proving my point. The money you're not paying in kike interest can go into your stock and crypto.

>>24790429
yes buy a shit house for 50k which needs work and then rent it to some idiot like you

>>24791961
Most jobs don't require BA or Masters anymore, they just want equivalent experience. The apprentice-journey man route is coming back. Why do companies need your preqs in trans-studies and black history for a management job?

>>24791910
>I can also collateralize my crypto and stocks for extra leverage - it’s not as good as leveraging your house, but you can still do it.
That's true, my point is that you can get a very high leverage with a mortgage. I don't know about the US, but in Germany nowadays it's common to have a mortgage for 80-100% of the property's value if you have a stable income. You can't do that with equity or crypto.

>>24792011
I don't know anyone doing anything with their degree. Well one, an engineer. But what happens is people get a job through a connection or friend. And just stay there.

Digitization is eating the world, so getting started in coding ASAP is prudent. IT as well, don't need a computer science degree for that - it's all certs now.

Crazy. Thanks to the internet education is becoming free and accessible to anyone with drive. Not a lot you can't master on the internet.

>>24792080
IT != software engineering

Certs get you IT jobs, CS/Math degrees or just being really good and networking like hell get you software engineering jobs. IT isn't bad but it's not $200k at 25 years old tier.

Also top tech companies usually want degrees shit like Medieval French Dance degrees for pencil pusher non-tech jobs but they need to come from a high tier school

>>24792128
IT security makes bank these days. I'm 33 now, but if I were in my mid twenties I'd do that without a single hesitation. Much easier than coding/soft. engineering and insanely in demand.

>>24792197
To each their own, I would definitely tell any kid looking to go into IT to be a software engineer though because it pays extremely well at the high end and teaches you the most general/transferable skills.

If you want you could always go from CS degree to some IT job but it would be harder to go from an IT job you got with just a cert to a software engineer job. You'd definitely have to work your way up to the companies with high pay, whereas with CS you could go straight into those companies after you graduate if you are good.

If I keep earning/saving at my current rate I will be semi-retired by the time I'm your age so I'm pretty happy with my decision to study CS at least.

>>24790429
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE9qb1Nhw4A

>>24792255
>If I keep earning/saving at my current rate I will be semi-retired by the time I'm your age so I'm pretty happy with my decision to study CS at least.
You murricans with your insane salaries make me seethe so hard.

t. Yuropoor with CS degree

>>24790904
now that's art

>>24792334
we can just hope their housing bubble implodes and it all goes to shit my fellow yuropoor friend

t. working in sales

>>24793389
But still, even though I'm living in one of the richest countries in the EU, I'm probably never going to have a six-figures salary unless I emigrate to Switzerland. Murrican anons all seem to get >$100k right out of uni.

>>24790904
Dinklberg

>>24793425
fun fact there are more college graduates working minimum wage, than there are engineers and scientists combined.

But most of them fell for the social sciences meme.

>>24791605
>>24791668
You your wife and >>24791668 are all retarded real estate is neither savings or an investment (if it’s not producing income) if it isn’t making you money it’s nothing more then a store of value like gold.

>>24793425
I'm hoping my PNK stack will help me get a house in the next 2 years (even if I'll be able to pay for half of it upfront)

>>24792280
i miss this lil niqqa like you wouldn't believe

>>24790429
Yes.
There has been multiple studies on the subject of generational wealth accumulation and all of them regardless of the nation agree that House ownership is single biggest factor for generational wealth accumulation.

The longer the generation takes to reach home ownership the lower their wealth, the latest study on this subject was done in Australia.
Look it up on google, quality assets will become more and more expensive, out of reach from average workers as inflation and wage stagnation accelerate.
Where do you want to be?

>>24793679
>There has been multiple studies on the subject of generational wealth accumulation and all of them regardless of the nation agree that House ownership is single biggest factor for generational wealth accumulation.
I'm familiar with these studies. A common argument for why that is the case is not that real estate is a superior wealth accumulator (statistically speaking house prices rise at about inflation level in the long run), but that real estate ownership encourages you to not burn your money on useless shit. Nobody would sell his house to buy a Lambo. However, plenty of people would buy a Lambo if they had the equivalent amount of cash sitting in their bank account.

>>24790470

What's up Adam, or Adam's roomate?

>>24790429
>Is renting a house really that much worse than owning it
No because the future is in renting
Western women have became whores so white males do not marry / settle down. so they don't buy house
Remote IT jobs.. you can work everywhere in the world
the pleb will get UBI and live in governament houses
Immigration will bring a lot of black skins.. property wll devalue
God I wanna see boomers liquidate their ''precious'' assets bought for nothing to a new generation of jew, the one who will buy them with Link gains

>>24790429 (OP)
>Is renting a house really that much worse than owning it
No because the future is in renting
Western women have became whores so white males do not marry / settle down. so they don't buy house
Remote IT jobs.. you can work everywhere in the world
the pleb will get UBI and live in governament houses
Immigration will bring a lot of black skins.. property wll devalue
God I wanna see boomers liquidate their ''precious'' assets bought for nothing to a new generation of jew, the one who will buy them with Link gains

>>24793569
Shill me on PNK

>>24793425
You can emigrate to the US too if you want, I know plenty of Europeans here.

>>24791303
>This decade is going to be a major transition from Urban to Rural

>>24791345
>True, except if you buy in Japan in 1991, you would had been losing money for 25 years, and still not at break even after 30.
wtf did happen to the Japan house market?

>>24791439
>Once tech leaves these cities
why should it?

>>24794469
Japan was growing super fast and had an asset bubble.

When the bubble started popping, the central bank stepped in and basically made it so people wouldn't lose money. Which sounds good in theory but prevented them from crashing to a point where they could start over.

>>24794406
I'm afraid that I'm not smart enough to land a good job over there and even if I get an H-1B, I might end up like an underpaid pajeet. Switzerland is at least culturally similar to my home country.

>>24791461
>Right now we're right at the eve of the next work revolution.
Ok but what about people who don't work in IT? They can't work by remote

>>24790752
why are millenials so obsessed with calling everything a "hack". This is basically living with room mates, but footing them all the bills.

What's stopping them from just flaking on you at any moment leaving you high and dry like any other shitty room mate?

>>24795291
nobody enjoys living with their landlord
its shit
its fucking uncomfortable

>>24791639
Houses in my area are $400k minimum, and that's for a townhouse in the outskirts of the city, not to mention the bidding wars where the house will end up selling for $100k more

>>24793535
thats because social science isnt real
study something real instead of making people schizophrenic

>>24795698
which is why "house hacking" sounds like a complete and utter meme. Your roommates/tenants would probably ghost you after a couple months, leaving you to end up still paying for everything.

>>24794496
>Japan was growing super fast
by what was this grown fueled?

>>24795722
>Houses in my area are $400k minimum
shouldn't price come down and be valued in Gold if dollar crashes?

>>24791102
owning a property in the west is probably going to be overvalued
Just buy an house in SEA or East europe

theoretically it's best to live with mom and wait for a crash to buy when houses are cheap and take on a smaller mortgage even if it's at a higher interest rate. but if you're already renting, just buy a fucking house. stop throwing your money away. even if housing crashes in your suburb, you'll be able to sell it for something and get some of that cost back. Contrast with renting where you just piss money away.

>>24790429
It's all about cash flow. Both can be good depending on price, which is dependent on location.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOO CRASH THIS FUCKING RETARD MARKET ALREADY I WANT A FUCKING HOUSE OOOOOO

As long as housing prices continue rising it will always be better to own than rent, my first house I owned for 4 years, did a little work on it and sold it for $70k more than I paid for it, I did the math and after taking into account everything I paid for, taxes, mortgage payments, etc, I was being paid something like $10k a year to live in that house.

Now the house that I moved into house risen in valuation by $100k, and I don't see housing pricings going down, lower interest rates are here to stay and floods of immigrants will keep housing prices high no matter what, better to own and get paid to live in your own house than rent.

>>24794469
Japan deregulated their housing market after their stock market crashed because no one could buy houses. They restructured their zoning laws to be dead simple, gave easy and affordable access to permits, and have always allowed mixed zoning so that shops and housing could coexist. Plenty of jobs exist within walking distance of people's homes. It's one of the few things they have going right with their country.

>>24790429
Don't buy unless you intend to stay in the same area for 10 years and have job security or in a field where its easy to find new job quickly in your area.

>>24796325
People in Japan are actually buying property to live in and not as inflation hedges, too. To my knowledge Chinks, Arabs and Jews aren't buying up all the real estate there like they are here in Bongland, and the US.

>>24791475
Sometimes you have to ask yourself, what would /b/ due if their neighbor's dog was giving them grief and hurting their wallet?

Just, sometimes you have to ask yourself what /b/ would do, anon.

>>24791768
>House owners are much more baited into expensive as fuck "upgrades"
This happened to my parents, they bought a huge house near the height of the housing bubble with one of those jumbo loans that ballooned on them when the bubble burst. On the one hand, with so many children, they needed a large house. On the other hand, they spent 100k (like another third or quarter of the purchase price) on a remodel. They managed to get out of it with a short sale but they've had really bad luck with housing pretty much my whole life, it's ruined their ability to retire and accumulate wealth and now it's basically too late, my dad's at the end of his career making less than he did a decade ago with no potential to improve his salary. Now I'm worried they're going to be a burden on me and my siblings in the next few years when they try to survive on social security income while trying to pay for more house than they can afford.

>>24797886
Just sell the house?

>>24793807
Nah thats Zach

>>24790429
>renting anything
>ever
Don't be a retard. Renting is the last thing you should ever resort to. Barring certain extreme circumstances (such as a house fire), buying is always the wiser choice.

>rent a property that someone else owns and fill their pockets
vs
>own the property that can be rented out to others
How is this a question?

>>24793539
>It's not savings, it's a store of value

>>24799007
That's what boomers actually believe lmao.

>>24798959
why?

>>24793425
>, and now the condo market in my city is getting bad. Hoard
im a yuropoor and work for a US company remote. I make 80k for a junior position which is probably nothing in the US but a kings ransom here in yuropistan. I make more than my engineer friends lmao. stay based ameribros and keep paying me those high wages. meanwhile yurocucks think 2k euro net is agood wage

>>24794406
>You can emigrate to the US too if you want
no you cant they literally closed the borders
>t. had work visa ready to move to the land of milk and honey before blompf shut the whole country down

>>24799353
How do you deal with the very different time zones?

>>24799425
usually not a problem as I work mostly autonomously. when I have calls I schedule them in the AM us time so theyre in the evening here. every once in a while I have to stay up late to get on a call but its pretty rare.

>>24799540
Living in some Eastern European country and getting US salary sounds like a pretty good deal.

There is absolutely no benefit to renting over buying if you’re not a brainlet.

The anon saying it’s better to buy, rent that out and then rent a place of your own is forgetting my that you can buy two places, rent one and live on the other. Rental income is throwing money in the bin. You may not like being a “slave”, but the reality is you need a place to live and buying means you throw less money away than renting as long as you’re not retarded. Buy the worst house on the nicest street. Don’t overstretch your budget. Improve it frugally and in keeping with what would suit potential buyers, even with extensions/conversions. Balance quality with cost and don’t lock yourself into deadlines that cost you money. Give yourself the freedom to sell when it’s right for you in order to get the best deal.

Renting is throwing money away. These days you can have a mortgage for the same price per month as rent, it’s a no brainer.

>>24798570
Yeah, they're going to have to, but they'll lose money on the sale in their area I think. There's necessary repairs they've been putting off that'll have to get taken care of before they can sell it.

One thing that will help quite a lot is that if they come to me for help, I'm going to force them to move out of southern california. They can be elderly somewhere cheap, especially if it's on my dime. If I could get everything I wanted, I'd actually have them move next door to me and my wife and make them provide free childcare like they did with their parents, but who knows if that'll happen.

There are market situations where renting is a much better deal as landlords have to rent out below their total cost of ownership. Rents are dictated by market forces and not by landlords' delusions.

>>24790429
The landlord can suddenly decide to increase the rent and fuck you over. Can't happen with a mortgage.

>>24796118
>theoretically it's best to live with mom and wait for a crash to buy when houses are cheap
So you'll wait 10 years for house prices to "crash" to levels of what it will be in 5 years? The best time to buy a house was yesterday. The sooner you stop deluding yourself the better off you'll be.

>>24801741
Yes, and with a mortgage, you have the entire US Government behind you to support you. There were special government programs in 2009 for troubled home owners. If you're smart enough to post on this imageboard, you're smart enough to handle home ownership. Get on it.

You guys have convinced me away from the condo and into a house. I really like the idea of living in a city and not needing a car to get around, but holy hell there are so many advantages to your own house.