/biz/ - Business & Finance

Is it safe to come out yet?

>>24745
seems that way. maybe we should sage for a while to keep this thread off the front page

Is socialism the only way to preserve the environment?

>>24796
yes

>>24796
socialism had a terrible record of "preserving the environment", polluting large areas at production facilities.

>>24796
depends what you mean by socialism
if you think regulation in any form is socialism, yes

if you think full socialism is the only socialism then its an entirely different beast

>>24836

That'd be correct if a truly socialist economy existed.

This is so civil, please don't ruin this when you show up later denizens of thread one. Thank you.

>>24859
>if you think regulation in any form is socialism, yes

FNC/CNN/MSNBC pls go.

>>24870
there are a lot of americans on here and thats what some of their media outlets seem to present it as

is it really that much of a leap to think some of them hold that belief?

>>24890

I'd like to think that even 4chan is above that.

>>24907
maybe, but I am wary of assuming too much and making the conversation inaccessible

look dicks, your thread died that's no reason to make another fucking circlejerk.

great "socialism", whatever you mean by that, keep it on /pol/

saged

>>24730
Mio is looking extra busty there, mmmmm

>no shitpost edition

>nothing but shitposts from beginning to end

>>24928
I'd join her fanclub if you know what I mean.

>>24942
No what do you mean

I tried to bring this up in the other thread but what do you guys think about work refusal? Is it a right?

>>24941
As long as that autist in the other thread(you know who i'm talking abou) doesn't see it I think we're good. I think he's too distracted constantly hitting f5 red in the face in the other thread

>>24965
As long as you don't expect food you should be able to refuse. I'd like to hear a case for why you should get some other than moral solidarity. I also don't want to hear anything about technology making labor obsolete, that's scifi for now at least.

>>24862
Ugh... What was to become a socialist economy has that terrible record. It's not like it would get any better.

>>24730
What are the underlying foundations of this economic ideology

>>24859
>>24859
>>24870
>>24890

American here.

The way I see it, while it's debatable whether or not countries where there exists regulation can be considered "socialist," I would argue regulation, the public sector, worker's unions, welfare etc. are all fundamentally "socialist." If you ask me, capitalism and communism both lost the Cold War, but socialist has remained and continues to permeate throughout most of the more well developed countries. I'm not opposed to this really though.

>>24965

Depends really. I mean, if someone wanted to become a hermit or something, I'm not opposed to that. But if you're gonna take from a society, I think it's your social responsibility to give something back at least.

>>24995
Uh... Sorry, but I have to contest you on that.

Production requires far less human involvement per produced item today compared to a hundred, or even fifty, years ago.

>>25008
You /should/ give something back, I agree, but is there enough room for someone to refuse work and be fed? Food production is cheaper than healthcare and military spending. Most people waste food as is. I don't see why the system couldn't support a good number of people refusing work provided it scaled back its military.

>>25016
I don't contest that, however I was going more for the 'robots will do everything' angle.

go back to reddit

Not business or finance related in any way

take your thread to

>>>/pol/

Heads up guys: other thread hit autosage, just hide the bullshit.

I have a question myself:

Do you think it's possible for a society to have all the basic resources co-managed while still having a well defined "luxury market." What I mean is, could a society have all the essentials of food, housing and energy people need produced by a democratic state labor force, distributed equally, yet still provide wiggle room for people the citizens to create a market for more personal enterprises within the more creative areas of human life. Not sure if I put that correctly.

>>25054
So you want government control over the commanding heights of the economy? Yeah that's been done before. Not as far as food production goes but for Industry, it's definitely been done.

It's the same fucking OP from the other thread that made this thread.

SAGE

REPORT

AND MOVE ON

>>25042
Oh, okay.

I misunderstood you then, carry on!

>tfw contesting a point on 4chan and not instantly being called a faggot and a retard

I like this board.

>>25037

>You /should/ give something back, I agree, but is there enough room for someone to refuse work and be fed?

I'm not sure. But then, why would anyone "refuse" work, especially in a society with plenty of employment? I could understand people being unable to work in more manual labor due to health and what not, but I don't if anyone would actually refuse work unless they're a freeloader or going to school (which pretty much is work and an investment on the state or individual's part.)

>>25052

Agreed

This isn't /pol/ guys, come on, moot made this board for us.

Don't make it take it away.

jusst gonna leave this here...

>>25057
>So you want government control over the commanding heights of the economy? Yeah that's been done before. Not as far as food production goes but for Industry, it's definitely been done.

I'm not sure if that's what I mean though. I'm thinking of something that is probably a little less centralized than most other experiments done of similar nature.

>>24730

please take this ideological discussion to /pol/

this board is for business and finance.

>>25070
>jusst gonna leave this here...
>posting that same reddit image that all the libertarians had a good laugh at
Jesus fucking christ.

go to /pol/ thanx

this is not board for discussion of policy which is a political subject

>>25064
I think once the new board smell goes away this will be a pretty nice place.

>>25065
I think the fundamental question is whether or not everyone has to work for society to function. You would need to keep the population of those refusing work under control but I don't see how sparing three square meals a day would bankrupt a state that can pay for tanks.

>mfw socialists don't know the difference between business economics and political economics

>>25094
>I think the fundamental question is whether or not everyone has to work for society to function. You would need to keep the population of those refusing work under control but I don't see how sparing three square meals a day would bankrupt a state that can pay for tanks.
You seem to continue to post political discussion on a board with rules against such discussion.

Please go to /pol/

:^)

>please stop shitting up this board.

go to /pol/

>>25074
Well food production can be collectivized at a local level but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

If luxury goods are made in an entrepreneurial manner you would have to have it exist outside the managed economy. I don't know how you'd arrange compensation for the production of these goods though.

What is the average cost of work refusal per person? How could it be tabulated in an abstract sense?

Is it like dole money where there is a fixed financial obligation to each citizen or could it be represented in commodities?

>>25109
>Well food production can be collectivized at a local level but I don't think that's what you're talking about.
Every single time that happened people starve to death.
What do you think happens if you murder anyone that tries to grow their own food.
Top lel, why do you people exist? What is wrong with you?

>centrally planned economies
Heh.

Not /biz/ related though

>that image
Socialist bootlickers actually believe this. lol

They really do hate their own choices, they would rather be slaves.

>>25109
>collectivized
I am involved in the co-op for my town and you would be surprised how efficient people not trying to be efficient can be.

>>25123
>you would be surprised how efficient people not trying to be efficient can be.
less efficient than people who are trying to?

>>25118
It's a commodities thing. Price is a function set by a market and if you're going all in for central planning you can't expect price levels outside the central planning bubble to be any sort of metric.

It would be something like
Labor for food production transportation and storage
Seeds
Packaging
etc.

How that ends up in the end remains to be seen.

>>25140
I guess that brings us back to the question I had. Assuming commodities could be produced in a sufficient level for work refusal. Is it something that could be tolerated or accepted?

>>25152
How would you arbitrate requests for work refusal? What if people don't make requests and just do it? How do you keep them from just breeding like flies with the free food?

>>25152
no, and it shouldn't be.
why should anyone tolerate others not working?
why should anyone work if they aren't expected to?
why WOULD any one work if they aren't expected to

it sounds to me like you just don't want to work and want someone else to foot the bill so you are going to try and raise political questions as an excuse as to why your time is much better spent sitting on the internet like a noncontributing leech instead of out earning money to feed yourself.

>>25109
>Well food production can be collectivized at a local level but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

It might be. What I was thinking was something like you have a given area with a certain number of people, you divide this area up into let's say three fairly even sections, each section is responsible for producing its own food but has just enough extra produced in case of whatever, but the amount of surplus each section is permitted to have is agreed upon between the three and what has out of this surplus may be transferred from one area to another depending on where it may be most needed (for example, in case you have an unexpected disaster or population boom in one area) Basically a confederacy of sorts. Maybe something along those lines.

>>25163
I think you are making the mistake of not accounting for the necessary cultural value shifts that would accompany such central planning. Most people would want to work but some people might not. If you had an interest that was not yet accommodated by the central planning of the state, work refusal would serve a similar function to entrepreneurial activity.

>>25179
>Most people would want to work
based on what exactly?

>If you had an interest that was not yet accommodated by the central planning of the state, work refusal would serve a similar function to entrepreneurial activity.
or you could just let people do what they want in the first place and skip that whole state planning nonsense

>>25176
When it comes to food that is definitely a possibility. If you apply it industrially you are looking at something syndicalist.

>>25179
So you're saying because everyone can be taken care of without using the entire population that work could exist on a much more fluid schedule because of guaranteed employment? There is still risk involved in creating new things but you won't starve if you're a shitty inventor?

>>25187
>When it comes to food that is definitely a possibility. If you apply it industrially you are looking at something syndicalist.

Could you explain how applying it agriculturally and applying it industrially would differ?

>>25081

full version for your pleasure

>>25202
>fluid
Yeah I suppose that's close to it.

Is it weird to think of it as free enterprise in the context of socialism?

>>25047
National socialism isn't okay on reddit.
Libertarianism is.
>>>/reddit/
>>25048
>the economy isnt part of business
>>>/b/

>>25255
>you can work whenever you want XD
>even when things have to be produced on time and on extremely tight schedules

Is this the board where we get dubs?

>>25263
>Libertarianism is.
No it's not, faggot.

Go to /r/politics and tell me that

Stop bumping the fucking thread
>>the economy isnt part of business
Socialism isn't part of business
It's politics
get out

>>25263
see>>25097

if you wanted to talk about running a co-op, there is your socialist business
if you want to talk about governments giving meals to people you are talking about politics

>>25255
I think what you're going for is more akin to some communistic form of anarchism. Isn't work refusal more of an anarchist issue anyway?

>>25274
>anarchist issue

Why would it not be applicable here

>>25269

Socialism is an economic system

>>25289
Yes they keep saying that.
It still has nothing to do with business or finance though.
Stop shitposting on the capitalism board.

>>25199
Well simply put as one of the trolls pointed out, Industry is a much finer process. Agriculture isn't an exact science and when you run it communally the most important part is the quality of the land and the labor.

Industry has schedules, much more complicated resource supply chains, and timed shift work. If you scale the communities properly it could work but then again you'd be looking at the city-state confederacy of syndicalists. I really think that's what you're getting at.

>>25289
Discussions of government policy must be strictly limited to economic policies (fiscal and monetary)
you are talking about job creation, free lunches, and tanks

>>25304
This dammit.

This faggot needs to go back to /pol/

>hey guys lets destroy the very reason this board was created
Sage.

>>25281
It is applicable but I'd have to call in someone else to really carry the conversation in that direction.

lets have a thread about capitalism!

personally I think we need to take a look at the state of gun control in this country

>>25327
>lets have a thread about capitalism!
That's the entire board except this thread.

I like how the trolls are trying so hard to derail the discussion and failing horribly. Delicious.

Market socialism or Non-market?

>>25335
what a shocker, the business board is made up of threads about the only economic system where private ownership and business exist

>>25350
>Non-market?
Non-market.
It's basically nothing to do with this board.

>>25343
>implying
It's already derailed.

>>25350
if you can come up with something better than labour-hours non-market, otherwise market

labour-hours is pretty shitty, it's like using a worm as a ruler

>>25276
We are talking about one business that is controlled by the government and is operated by workers.

All systems are doomed, Resource Based Economy is the future and will be the leading system in year 3000. Deal with the facts.

>>25363
>We are talking about one business that is controlled by the government and is operated by workers.
With distorted market prices and/or not competition or market signals at all lol great

Also by the way, the workers taking over the factory won't get you higher wages at all, you're not magically being more productive.

>>25365
resource based economy is the hip new way to say socialism

Will the communist scum ever be forced to pay reparations to the opressed nations of central Europe?

>>25363
what is the name of this company?
please, I would just like someone to explain to me how discussing a governments role in career planning has anything to do with finances

SAGE

REPORT

AND MOVE ON

is the main problem with socialist states that they always find themselves entangled in revolutionary and militant ideologies

if they didn't have their guns pointed at capitalist countries and existed simply out of solidarity and concern for citizens I don't see why coexistence isn't possible

Socialism =/= Communism

Shit belongs in fucking /pol/

Don't turn this board into /pol/ 2.0

Fuck off and die

>>25365
Please detail for us what a Resource Economy is without it sounding like some socialist derivative.

>>25372
WorkhardOrWeKillYou Incorporated.
>>25370
>Doesn't have to pay CEO
>Not increasing my money a few bucks an hour.
Is socialism above your head? Its not that complicated.

>>25377
tl;dr -
>Socialists don't assume people will just do things based on their kindness and assume that rules have to be enforced.

>>24730
Pick one:
[]Socialism
[]Economics

Again, pick one:
[]Socialism
[]Civil

>>25381
I doubt there is enough support for a communist economics thread, though if you think there is I'd support you!

Hell two threads would take the heat off of us just a little.

>>25393
>>Doesn't have to pay CEO
>actually thinks currency == consumer goods
top lel
>actually thinks if all workers took all of the money their bosses make it wouldn't simply make prices rise to that new level because there are no new resources actually being produced for anyone in the economy making the idea of eating the rich self defeating
>actually thinks if he takes away money from his firm for personal consumption his firm wouldn't fail and be forced to raise prices

>Is socialism above your head?
I love when you simple minded children get your delusions destroyed by basic economics and logic.

>>25399
>>Socialists don't assume people will just do things based on their kindness and assume that rules have to be enforced.
Yes, they actually hate society that much. They're psychopaths.

>>25400
civ·il
ˈsivəl
adjective
1.
of or relating to ordinary citizens and their concerns, as distinct from military or ecclesiastical matters.
"civil aviation"
synonyms: secular, nonreligious, lay; More
nonmilitary, civilian

I can not just pick one. Socialism is objectively civil.

>>25393
You're the only person feeding trolls here. Stop it or I will be convinced that you're just reverse trolling.

>>25393
if the CEO of walmart didnt take a salary the employees would earn 1 cent more an hour. if all the money that goes to share holders went to employee wages they would increase by under one dollar

>>25415
>A system literally based on violence
>Civil

>>25393
>>Doesn't have to pay CEO
>>Not increasing my money a few bucks an hour.
Holy fuck you're stupid. The CEOs pay isn't even a cent/hour out of your wage, and the only reason corporate CEOs make millions per year is that they oversee tens, if not hundreds of thousands of employees.

>>25415
see
>>25417

stop engaging the trolls fuckwit

>>25415
>Socialism is objectively civil.
Murdering someone because you disagree with them is civil?

Murdering someone because they wouldn't give up the money they have earned is civil?

Lol god damn you're dumb.

>>25426
>if the CEO of walmart didnt take a salary the employees would earn 1 cent more an hour
Basically this.

It's an objective fact socialists RAGE when they hear and refuse to believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54z4SI85WgM

>>25410
Economics is a capitalist pseudoscience.

Fuck this board I'm outta here.

>>25426
Not only that but that extra cent or 50 cents would simply cause prices to rise because there is more demand and the same exact supply of goods.

Lel socialism.

>>25410
>all workers took all of the money their bosses make
No, all workers obtain a small portion of what their bosses make, not all of it.

>>25445
>all workers obtain a small portion of what their bosses make
Y.....yeess? That's why I said "if" before that.

If they took all of the money he makes, they would get nothing.
That's what I'm saying.

Why the FUCK is Socialism called Socialism, anyway? It's a hate filled ideology based on envy, destruction and violence.

Isn't Capitalism the true socialism, as it's essentially based on people interacting with one another, i.e being social?

>>25456
>>25451
>>25436
>>25410
That sure shut up the lefttard.


>>25459
Fucking THIS.
I love awesome people who understand what peace and tolerance is all about.

>>25428
disagree? I don't care what they think. I only care what they do.
>>25427
That is how you keep society in check, friend-o!

Nice chat, I'm gonna hop to bed.

here is a video explaining how socialism almost destroyed sweden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG51uCrYxVM

>>25380
The problem there is in domestic defense. If you could manage to set something like this up in a place without oil then maybe you'd actually stand a chance.

>>25441
>Aerodynamics is an aviationist pseudoscience

>>25464
>I only care what they do.
and what they do is entirely peaceful and benefits society
You're a psychopath that belongs in a cage.

>That is how you keep society in check, friend-o!
>violence is what society is all about

You truly are a horrible person. Fuck off nazi.
Did daddy not love you?

>>25464
>Nice chat, I'm gonna hop to bed.
Thought you were playing EVE online?
Why don't you just buy that helium tank already?
You just lost a debate in economics? Was that all you had left to live for? lol

>>25467
I get the feeling you are thinking of something very decentralized.

Is there actually even a state in your vision?

>>24730
>Keep it civil!
>shitposts anti-business bullshit on the business board

Yeah, okay...

lmfao at all the capitalists getting BTFO

>>25487
there would have to be one
im not much of a believer in anarcho-communism although I do see the benefits of a state that 'chooses its battles' so to speak

I'm thinking something like a commune (in the modern sense that does business as a collective economic entity) except it can make laws too

>>25482
>Yelling at people on the internet is a debate that can be won.
You heard it here! Capitalists consider internet ramblings of a Nazi a legitimate debate.
>>25475
>You're a psychopath that belongs in a cage.
Extra! Extra! Capitalists want the mentally ill to be locked in cages!

>>25500
It is unfortunate that we can't run an experiment like this. I'd even settle for political autonomy in a larger nation (in some ways this solves the defense problem).

>>25499
>l-l-lol c-c-capitalists
Lol dat projection.

>>25508
>Capitalists consider internet ramblings of a Nazi
LOL
and socialists have to compulsively lie and make shit up EVEN AS THEY GET BLOWN THE FUCK OUT
You had no reply to the posts listed here:
>>25463
At all.
You're dead wrong, you're basically a mystic at this point, you don't even believe in evolution.

Never in my life have I seen someone get this fucking TOLD.

You need to die and fast.

>Capitalists want the mentally ill to be locked in cages!
>mentally ill
Well at least you admit that.

>>25508
You lost, that's all that happened here.

>>25508
>calling someone a nazi when you lose
It's over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

>>25516
>>25508
>>25499
>>25494
>>25482
>>25475
>>25464
>>25459
>>25428
>>25415
>>25400

Wow isn't it weird how all these posts replying to each other all are spaced approximately a post timer apart?

It's almost like the guy is samefagging and replying to himself to try and reverse troll the thread!

>>25512
Agreed. It's getting late here, I'm going to crash. Nice talking with you though.

>>25529
No, it's because you're trying to promote an anti-business ideology in a board about business

>>25535
likewise
cheers

>>25525
>I self identify as a Nazi
>You use Godwins law, an idea that was based upon insensitivity to the holocaust, to refute me.
Read your Wikipedia page, then tip your fedora to Ayn Rand and the Amazing Atheist on a Reddit while you feel ashamed.

>>25382
This isn't /pol/ 2.0. A thread so utterly content-free as this one would have been nuked within 20 minutes by a mod on /pol/.

>>25547
>I self identify as a Nazi
So you literally have no understanding of anything in the history of everything ever.
Go back to /pol/

>>25572
>>>/r/libertarian

Possibly the most stupid fucking thread I've encountered in /biz/. Is this seriously a general or is some moron trying to force this?

>>25571
Yeah you're right, there are a lot of content devoid shitposts like yours. How about you hide the thread and fuck off.

>>25584
This was a good thread until the other one autosaged and the guy samefagging and reverse trolling moved over here

His little autistic feelings cannot handle threads he doesn't like.

>>25575
>anti-business faggot telling someone to fuck off to reddit
>on a board about business

Why did productivity go up in anarchist Catalonia after currency was abolished?

>>25579
Isn't it about time for your government-provided lunch over there in Yurp? GTFO.

If you don't like the reception you're getting here, then perhaps you should reconsider posting "kill all the capitalists" threads on the BUSINESS BOARD, you middle school mongoloid.

>>25617
This is a discussion thread. The fact that you feel so incredibly threatened by an alternative method structuring businesses is not my problem. You are welcome to your opinion however I would ask that you extend the same courtesy to me and to anyone else who does not share yours.

I get that the thread seems a little silly, however there was some real discussion happening here and I highly doubt that this board would turn into /commie/ in response to a handful of anons talking about alternative business ownership.

I would ask that you hide the thread next time instead of acting this way. You're wasting your time, my time, and everyone else's time.

If you felt threatened, then we have not communicated successfully. I don't think an understanding is beyond our reach.

>>25597
>>25417
>>25529
samefag

Remember to report shitposters.

Polite sage to keep this off the front page.