/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>243417


Again, this has caused us enough hardship. I've spent many hours communicating through emails with you and I can see now that any further negotiations are a waste of time.

We absolutely have trust issues, and that is because you mislead us. If I wanted to, I could make this a bigger deal than it has to be, but I'm not going to do that.

I'm sending you the source files now and will request that we end our working relationship here. No point wasting anymore time.

Take care _______, none of this is personal, it is all business and instead of repeating the fact that I have been wronged business-wise here I'll just hope that we both move on and learn our lessons from it.

What I'm sending you now is worth more than the $300 you paid me. Take it to freelancer.com and someone will finish this project for you for around the same price or less than I quoted. I am done with this now and need to move onto serious projects.

You wrote this over $200?

Holy fuck... lol you're such a drama queen I would be extremely embarrassed if I emailed this to someone over $200.

Also, you're a complete pushover for giving him the source files if he hadn't paid you in full.

>>243436
>You wrote this over $200?

The contract was for $2,000 actually.

The faggot was paying me $300 after 20+ hours of work (my rate is $50/hr) and acting like I hadn't earned it.

>Holy fuck... lol you're such a drama queen

Ugh. I really look forward to when /biz/ becomes more popular and we get some more fucking businessmen up here.

Protip: Just because you're 20 something doesn't mean you have to be a limp-wristed faggot and avoid confrontation with people, even if you're working online. Be tough. Don't be a faggot who equates standing up for yourself with "drama".

>>243417
>The fact that you paid $300 out of my $500 request is not a sign of good faith.

Repeat: The project was for $2,000 total. I asked him for $500 down on it and he waffled hard and made me wait a full business week to be paid $300 instead... and then told me I hadn't earned it after jumping around enthusiastically in email after email about how I was exceeding his expectations and "going to make him rich".

A quote from him "hope you're ready to be rich!".

Another quote "I'm sorry I don't have the $500 right now but I can probably scrape together a few hundred"

This is after agreeing to the project for $2,000...

Into-the-thrash.jpeg

>>243419
>>243417

This is extremely reddit tier shit posting.

You can have contracts for this sort of thing.

There are mechanical contractors who have you sign contracts for even as low as $75. It specifically says that you agree to pay or you will be sued for costs plus court costs.

Depending on the industry you're in, you will occasionally get people who never intended to pay you. You just have to suck it up and take the loss sometimesThese people represent less than a percent of all clients you will ever get. As you get more experience you can determine who these people are before you even do the work.

For example, a boss I used to work for with electrical work wouldn't work for black people. He always told them to call other contractors, that his schedule was full, or he would quote them outrageous prices on the phone. Reason is that 99% of blacks always cause a problem with the bill.

>>243453

Just saw your post above that it was for $2,000, and not $300.

What kind of work did you do and how did you set the payment up for this guy?

What exactly is he disputing with you for?

>>243417

>The fact that you paid $300 out of my $500 request is not a sign of good faith.

Again: The project was for $2,000 total. I asked him for $500 down on it and he waffled hard and made me wait a full business week to be paid $300 instead... and then told me I hadn't earned it after jumping around enthusiastically in email after email about how I was exceeding his expectations and "going to make him rich".

A quote from him "hope you're ready to be rich!".

Another quote "I'm sorry I don't have the $500 right now but I can probably scrape together a few hundred"

This is after agreeing to the project for $2,000...

Into-the-thrash.jpeg

>>243453
>You can have contracts for this sort of thing.

He wouldn't sign it because I wanted royalties in exchange for getting fucked around about money (i.e. fraduded). Fuck him.

>Depending on the industry you're in, you will occasionally get people who never intended to pay you.

Absolutely, I don't come across it often but it makes me taste blood. This particular guy admitted to me (in writing, there are many emails before this) that he never had the money and was fronting it from "investors" (i.e. friends and business that he sent some gay unprofessional slop-written email to).

This is just part of my job. It's not a big deal but I do enjoy it.

>>243443
Read what you wrote and tell me how we should've known it was for $2,000.

>a limp-wristed faggot and avoid confrontation with people

That's exactly what I'm saying you're being. You just gave over control of what you've done by giving him the source files for free? He paid you 15% of the contract, you gave over all the work you've done so someone else can finish it. Remind me how you're being tough?

Standing up for yourself is not dramatic, writing a longwinded letter like this instead of "Pay me or see me in court. Here is an invoice and a due date" is a stupid reaction. Especially when you gave him the fucking source files for free!

>>243462
>Just saw your post above that it was for $2,000, and not $300.
>What kind of work did you do and how did you set the payment up for this guy?
>What exactly is he disputing with you for?

Reposted, my fault -

I am a programmer and I'll have to leave it at that. What I do has the potential to make a lot of money for people (it's the market, again, no details) so it's not rare for me to ask for royalties or commissions. Otherwise I'm liable to be paid $2,000 for an app that earns $200,000. People shoot themselves over that kind of thing.

op... you're an idiot.

>sign this contract
>doesn't sign the contract
>ok let's do business

>>243462
>how did you set the payment up for this guy?

He told me he had $2,000 in-hand ready to pay me by the weekend. I had the project 75% complete by then and asked for $500 "down-payment" - a huge value. He told me he wasn't convinced yet... bad sign. He later admitted he simply didn't have the money, after already putting me to work under the opposite impression (in writing and over the phone, he's fucked).


>What exactly is he disputing with you for?

He knows that I'm making something for him worth a lot of money and is either greedy or stupid. He also lied and frauded me from the beginning which I have proof in writing of (he's a hick I guess) and he is incapable of admitting it, so now there is no budge and he doesn't want to do royalties etc. Classic guilt-projection where someone fucks you over and then wants to punish you for calling them out.

>>243471
>Read what you wrote and tell me how we should've known it was for $2,000.

True. Fuck. Abandon thread.

>>243464
>He wouldn't sign it because I wanted royalties in exchange for getting fucked around about money (i.e. fraduded). Fuck him.

Should have just walked away right there.

>>243480

Have you given him the completed project yet?

If not, don't give it.

If you have, then is there anyway for you to sabotage or ruin it.

>>243471
>You just gave over control of what you've done by giving him the source files for free?

Sure, for $300. I'm not giving him that money back, and I really doubt he has the capacity to get it finished and profit on it before I do....

Yes, I'm taking his idea to market. Fuck him in the ass. It was an obvious idea that nobody has the skill to get around to and the incentive of being $2,000 was enough to put me on it.

Considering he never had the $2,000, that obvious idea is now mine. I expect to bring in around $10,000-$20,000 minimum on this app over a year, that is if it doesn't get featured at some point.

>>243464
I lol'd at fraduded

Also op, your email sounds like it was written by a 15 year old trying to sound professional

>>243491
>If you have, then is there anyway for you to sabotage or ruin it.

I'm taking it to market before him basically, so yes.

>>243521

I would rather you do what >>243471 said

>Pay me or see me in court

>>243492
Isn't that IP fraud? It was still his idea from the start.

As a developer I understand where you're coming from, but couldn't he sue you once he finds out that you've taken his idea to market?

Take the $300 you managed to salvage.
If this is an iOS app buy a developer license, if you don't have one already.
Release the app yourself.
Stop whinging like a faggot because you already did 75% of the work and it's supposedly groundbreaking
monetise app with in-app purchase and ads
market the hell out of it somehow. Make a website or some shit. Get a community involved.
Invest some of that $300 in ad schemes, whatever.
???????
Profit

>>243453

On the topic of contracts, how would I, as a freelancer, go about writing one up for a client?

A local painter I know would just have a piece of paper that said "person X agrees to do ABCD and person Y will at this date pay him $z for his services"

anyone got any info on this?

pic unrelated

>>243471
>You just gave over control of what you've done by giving him the source files for free? He paid you 15% of the contract, you gave over all the work you've done so someone else can finish it. Remind me how you're being tough?

F... fuck. The more I think about this the bigger a mistake it seems. I just would rather give him the unfinished project for $300 than pay the project back I suppose.

I can finish it my own now and get it market before him and see $ from it, but that really is the only way to avoid a situation where he ends up making $ off me. So far he has been given the option to finish this project and make mad $ off it for $300... instead of $2,000... but I am willing to bet that much money that he's too retarded to pull it off.

>>243539
>On the topic of contracts, how would I, as a freelancer, go about writing one up for a client?

If you're a programmer at least do what I did and tell him from the get-go (in your first email to him, this is a written notice or agreement and is legal in most states) - that any code you make for him is yours.

If/when you sign a contract and includes this they will be less bitchy about the concept (or if they're real professionals who have worked with freelancers before they may be used to it).

In situations like mine, if someone is fucking you around you can literally just take the project yourself, finish it and profit.

>>243545
If you got scammed by a retard, what does that make you? Functionally brain dead?

>>243539

I don't know how one would be written for a programmer, but you should definitely google it and look for templates online.

I've heard of contracts for certain technology related things that specifically said that the client couldn't release the product until the amount owed was paid in full or it would go to court.

>>243551

To add on to this

Op, I know you're freelance, and work is hard to come by sometimes, but you really should be far more liberal with refusing jobs.

When someone starts shit like this from the very beginning, just tell them you're not going to work for them and hang up/delete the emails.

Make some guidelines for yourself. You either sign the contract or I don't do jack shit. You either pay me the % I require when I require it or I sue your ass.

>>243563
>Op, I know you're freelance, and work is hard to come by sometimes, but you really should be far more liberal with refusing jobs.

I was the OP of the "demand what you're worth" thread.

I've definitely learned that lesson by now. I just gave this particular deadbeat a little too long of a leash and had to be long-winded in shutting him out.

Everyone just shutup and leave me alone.

I know you think you nailed the guy in your letter, but it comes across as passive aggressively twatty or catty or just something... blech. If you were reading a stranger's email (like I am), you'd also be cringing with second-hand embarrassment for the person who thought they just oh so perfectly got the other dude, and oh man is he in for it now, because the writer is the MASTER (of faggotry), so much so he's gonna share it with other people so they can learn from him! Fuck. Naw dude, naaaaaw.

So no, I'm sorry, it is not a good letter. That is NOT how you end a working relationship with an unpaying customer.

>>243417
>and for frauding me
If you're going to act like you're an authority on telling a client off that has already screwed you, at least run your email through a fucking spell checker.

>>243417
>you don't put people to work offering payment and then tell them later "I don't have it".
You also don't do a job until you have the cash up front, dumbass. If they can't afford it now, they can't afford it at all. Period.

>>243625

>clearly has no idea what he's talking about and has never conducted business successfully before

K bud

>>243761
>You also don't do a job until you have the cash up front, dumbass.

Yeah that's not how 99% of clients do business, kid.

>>243775
>Not how 99% of clients do business
>Got scammed by a retard
>Sent him the source code anyways
>Is calling other people kid
If you were worth anything as a programmer, people would pay you up front. If they can't, then they aren't worth working for. Don't pretend you aren't a limp-wristed 20 something. You bent over like a faggot and asked for more.

>>243783
>If you were worth anything as a programmer, people would pay you up front.

You're retarded... and you sound a lot like someone who has never worked for themselves before.

Take care wage slave.

>>243799
Kek. I'm a contract lawyer you faggot. I bill up front for work.
>Wage slave
Yeah, who was the one who did 75% of his work for 15% of his pay? And then sent the source code when he quit? I ain't working for no one for free, but you sure are. Who's the slave again?

>>243799
Oh and FYI my old flatmate says you're retarded, he gets paid half up front and bills the rest hourly. Doesn't release source code if he's not paid in full.

>>243419
So let me get this straight... he didn't pay you properly, you sent him strongly worded letter AND he gets the fruits of your labour up to that point for zilch?

Yeah, you sure are boss.

>>243531
As a web dev in my contract states i own all code. In other words i'm licencing what i have created to them. They however own all content they provide.

If his contract is a similar thing he could be fine.

>>243847
>If his contract is a similar thing he could be fine.
What contract?

>>243854
>Not having a contract

>>243857
>Sending your employer the source code

>>243819
>I'm a contract lawyer you faggot. I bill up front for work.

That's because you're a fucking lawyer. Nobody deals with you without expecting the peak of jewish behavior, faggot.

>Who's the slave again?

Not me. Your rhetort amounts to "lel im a lawyer i do what iw ant". Great, you're not a wage slave. Not sure you redeemed yourself though.

>>243823
>Doesn't release source code if he's not paid in full.

That was a term in my contract, but today I felt fine giving him source code to an incomplete project. Nobody really cares what your flatmate says brah.

>>243847
>As a web dev in my contract states i own all code.

Yep. I set this policy from the first email with him, and it was also in the contract (which he didn't sign). I gave him source code to an incomplete contract but everything is still mine to do what I want with.

>>243874

When you work for yourself they're called clients...

fuck, /biz/. Why are so many of you pretending? Just be real.

>>243545
>>243492
>>243483
You just replied to this one post 3 separate times. LOL

>>243926
/biz/ is overrun with role playing NEETs. Ignore them. BTW everybody "theft of service" is a crime. If someone refuses to pay you you can do something about it.

>>243443

I've been in your situation before. It sucks. I've had to sever relationships but you sound like a woman. It's not enough to be angry at someone, you have to let them know WHY in detail.

>>243531
>Isn't that IP fraud?

OP uses words like "frauded". I doubt he's really thinking that far ahead.

>>243606
> "This is how you end a relationship with a client:
> "Give them everything and write mean emails."

>>243417

G-Guys I don't go to Reddit! H-Honest!

>>246051

Yup.

>>246060

>You have to let them know why in detail, you sound like wooooman

Do you really think that was the only email?

>>246066

Suck a cock. I thought far enough ahead to keep the rights to everything I made. I can take it to market without any legal consequence.

>>246068

I gave him an incomplete project and called it source code, sure. Everything I have yet to complete, should I choose to, is mine. How did I really lose here?

Not looking for a real answer, it's obvious who among you are just being sour grapes NEETs.

>muh welfare

You faggots wouldn't know how to go about getting a $200 project let alone a $2,000 project.

Enjoy reading about everyone else's business and critiquing them to make yourselves feel better about your miserable lives, I'll be off getting rich.

>>246081
>Enjoy reading about everyone else's business and critiquing them to make yourselves feel better about your miserable lives, I'll be off getting rich.

Herp reaction image, neckbeard snort.

>>246090
You know what, I was going to say "you go man take that shit to market!" but you're just being immature. Accept that maybe you need to grow up a little and then work on it. This isn't a personal judgment it's anonymous conversation everyone is a little more of a jerk. Seriously though, you need to calm down and move on, this has been two days now.

>another "client" thread
>not linking to this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

>>246097
>Seriously though, you need to calm down and move on, this has been two days now.

Fuck you, faggot.

I've been neck-deep in multiple projects since the OP and just pop by to tell you pussies to stop pretending you're my mom and go make some money yourselves.

>>246221
>Fuck you, faggot

Christ so tough, you're going to blow a gasket.

OP I remember your anecdote from a previous thread about a week ago.

I think your letter is too many words. And I think you should retain the source files .. fuck that guy.

Here. Enjoy this correspondence between me and an auto insurer I ended business with.
:)

>>243926
>When you work for yourself they're called clients...
Non-sense, they're employing you to work aren't they?

>>246051
>/biz/ is overrun with role playing NEETs.
Yes, and OP is a web dev role playing as an actual programmer. You didn't get paid up front because your skills are worth nothing to anybody, fagwagon.

>>246081
>I gave him an incomplete project and called it source code
you're redefining aspects of your story as you defend it. Do you not think it's obvious to us as to why, you little weasel?

>>248578
Lol at aggressive poorfags. You think we can't smell it on you?

>>248221

Read above

>>246271

nice.....

OP's spelling/grammar is atrocious

Let me guess. You're a php developer.

top kek. tards hiring tards to do tard shit and throwing a shit fit when things don't go as intended. I bet your code is spaghetti and your client is a retard

>>243417

just smash up his fucking car and let him find out about it through the grapevine

assholes like this are a dime a dozen, want you to do all the work for free, then claim you're gonna be rich.

I have a guy who does linux systems admins and POS systems, he has to beat them off witha stick. They want the technical work done, but don't want to pay

OP, this is why you only do work when you have clients on a retainer. Except for very general and vague garbage, I won't even fucking talk to people on the phone unless I have cash from them in the bank.