/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>24117090
would like to know more as well, all these lawyer websites are pozzed and deliberately confusing

You need to hold them for 1 year than it's tax free

>>24117279
yeah, but that alone raises many question lol

>>24117279
This i know but what if sell earlier

>>24117279
And what counts as "holding"?

Because I already held my linkies on my ledger for longer than one year, but is that now tax free? Or do I have to directly sell it after holding, which means I should hold something on a fucking exchange for over a year or?

if you're ballsy enough, technically there are no rules set yet

ok here is the german crypto pill.

facts:
hold for one year and you can sell taxfree.
crypto to crypto is a taxable event.
First in First out is possible but not required.

opinion:
if you stake or lend your crypto some say the one year rule doesnt apply and the duration increases to 10 years. thats bullshit, read up on the 10 year rule and why it got introduced. you still need to pay taxes on your rewards or interest.

>>24117438
dangerously based
fuck jannies, fuck trannies, fuck the BRD

>>24117546
> crypto to crypto is a taxable event.
how come?

>>24117438
this

>>24117546
>crypto to crypto
how are they going to know?

>>24117438
Based
So do you just cash out little by little? What (total) amount is too big?

>>24117090
I don't give a fuck about taxes desu.

>>24117090
25% - 40% of your win

>>24117843
well you basically say: THERE IS NO LAW FOR THIS NOW FUCK OFF. Then you take your rsr money and buy a house in portugal.

But fearful Michel version:
600€ are for free, the rest goes on top of you Einkommen for the Einkommensteuer, so that you don't get too rich

>>24117843
first step: GTFO of germany (if you are about to make it ofc) go to switzerland, get an asset manager.

Tax evasion will be prosecuted with very high penalties, the banks will report it to the tax office, they will contact you and ask where the money comes from and you will be required to prove it.

>>24117843
Just move out of the country when you made it big times

>>24117090
>is it a taxable event?
Fuck nein Bruder, ist kein Taks für das.

The Staat can suck my fucking dick. I am already paying like 20% of my fucking income + other shit taxes. Once I am retiring with 78 and worked my ass off my whole life, I have to pay taxes again for my pension because of the factual illegal Doppelbesteuerung. Fuck this shit system.

>>24117090
einfach mal 2 Minuten googlen und du hättest die Antwort. Leute sind echt so dumm

You will pay 10000% of taxes.
You will be owning us money from owning crypto.
But we can cancel your debts if you relinquish all your basic civil rights and give us all your properties.

But Michel, we build the Infrastruktur you need to earn your money

>>24118185
Hol dir deinen Döner und gib a Ruh Michel

>>24117279

What if you
>buy 1BTC on 1.1.2019
>buy 1BTC on 1.6.2019
>sell 1BTC on 1.1.2020
>sell 1BTC on 1.6.2020
?

Can you tell that you actually sold the older bitcoin first, therefore invoking this one year exemption?

>>24118279
yes you can choose first in first out

>>24118185
Lutsch mein yarak

>>24118185
Raaainer, gib a Ruh

>>24117375
You pay income tax on it based on your income tax bracket.
>>24117381
The linkies are tax free. I don't understand the second question, ofc sending to exchanges or your own accounts doesn't affect the tax status. Just one thing, if you made taxable trades in the past holding 1 year doesn't make them magically tax free and you'll still go to jail.
>>24117438
Not ballsy. If you have to pay crypto taxes in germany you are one of these <100 IQ retards and didn't do your research.
>>24117586
It's the law, idiot
>>24117782
That depends on if they can get your records from exchanges. Might also be visible on the blockchain when you deposit to known exchange addresses.

>>24118472
>That depends on if they can get your records from exchanges. Might also be visible on the blockchain when you deposit to known exchange addresses.

Wtf does the finanzamt really have a clue about that

>>24118472
what if the exchange doesn't exist anymore?
also what the fuck can they do with decentralized swaps?

>>24118111
Where do you go? As far as i can see there are very few countries that are less fucked with better crypto tax rules.

>>24118472
>Not ballsy. If you have to pay crypto taxes in germany you are one of these <100 IQ retards and didn't do your research.
>It's the law, idiot

well michel do you pay taxes now or what?

>>24118601

I think the Finanzamt gets activated if some 20K Euro suddenly land on your account from some Malta-based sketchy cryptoexchange.

>>24118730
make it 5k

>>24118601
OECD CRS. If the exchange is in any of those countries they might actually already automatically share your data to the Finanzamt. Funny enough Burgerland seems to be the safest bet for exhanges right now.

>>24118655
Nothing, you are safe in those cases.
>>24118716
Of course i don't pay any taxes, all my bags are older than one year.

This shit was discussed THOUSANDS OF TIMES already why the fuck are you guys so dumb and afraight of the Finanzamt holy shit.
Trade and get taxraped, buy with fiat, hold a year+ then all profits are tax free. It aint rocket science

>>24119078
Well it's germany, everything is easier said than done here

>>24118730
I work for a bank here and there isn't a fixed sum for a Finanzamt meldung. It's a complex system with many many variables. It's not like you're safe as long as the transaction is less than lets say 20k but you're also not fucked and reported to the Finanzamt if you're over lets say 20k. Depends dude

If you've ever sent them to an exchange and then to a new wallet (or use a mixer or something), how would you prove the one year? Will they just take your word for it?

>>24118144
>>24117090
>If i sell my linkies for usdt,
Yes. Crypto to crypto tauschen counts as selling. and gets taxed with your personal income taxes.

>>24119155
But why the fuck do they report you to the finanzamt? Who the fuck told them you wouldn’t pay your taxes

>>24118185
dieses

>>24119155
go on

Habe zur Zeit eine Selbstanzeige mit Winheller am laufen für eine Hand voll Jahre 2X.000€ nur die Anwälte.
Ich hatte aber auch viel über Kraken etc. gemacht.
Nächstes mal kaufe ich direkt Monero.

>>24119251
They report almost everything. If you're a student and suddenly get multiple times a few thousand bucks to your account depending on the bank's compliance system this might already get reported.
Basically, anything unusual that happens to your account.

>>24119251

>Who the fuck told them you wouldn’t pay your taxes

I think it is more like: "dear Finanzamt, check this out". That is all.

Then it is up to Gertrude at the Finanzamt to see if she wants to spend the extra 10 minutes to put a reminder in her calendar one year from now on to check if your tax return contains anything crypto-related.

>>24119251
Geldwäschegesetz my man

>>24119261
Best tip I have for you, even tho it mht sound obvious: The sum should should make sense with the Verwendungszweck stated in the transaction.

You receive 12k and thats not a usual amount for your account? Lets have a look.
It says it's for "Autokauf yada yada yada"? AIght makes sense. Chances increased no one will give a fuck. You get the idea? But as I said, many factors. Your account and the usual transactions you have, the account the transaction comes from (before I worked in finance I had an account at a Sparkasse and they once held a coinbase transaction from going thru, then called me and asked if I actually want to do this because the account I want to send it to is noted to be fraudulent and bullshit like that with is laughable) but yeah, many factors. But generally, the smaller the portions are that you get the smaller zthe chance of attracting questions

>>24119437
Last year for example i transfered 3k to coinbase and approx the same amount a few months later back to my bank account because i made no gains. Does the bank actually take the time to check if you even made any gains before they report you to the finanzamt?

>>24119538
>Sparkasse and they once held a coinbase transaction from going thru, then called me and asked if I actually want to do this because the account I want to send it to is noted to be fraudulent

It means that you should have an account at the shittiest, most underfunded, pauper bank you can find in your country, right?

>>24119155
Some banks even freeze your account, when you get over 1k deposited in your account out of the regular. They will call you directly and ask what is going on.
>>24119199
They will just tax you, after some years and lots of money lost on lawyers you maybe get something back.
>>24119251
They get fucked by the Finanzamt as well, if they dont do this, the amount should be around 10k.

You should keep an 42-45% of your gains lost to the Finanzamt in mind when you want to trade and cash out in germany.

>>24119304

How many transactions did you make in a year? Was the Winheller worth it?

>>24119538
The Volksbank blacklisted Coinbase completly, you need to sign every transaction to coinbase personally at my local branch.
>>24119597
They just report you, the rest is up to you.

>>24119705
Alright thanks

I still have a very dumb question: if you hold longer than a year and cash out, do you have to mention the whole event and amount in your Steuererklärung or do you wait for the finanzamt to eventually contact you?

>>24119877
not the other guy, but yes you are obliged to report everything

>>24119909
Thank you

If you stay for longer then 6 month abroad you can "check out"(abmelden) with the administration. Do you have to pay taxes when you buy and sell in this time?

>>24119877
Technically you need to report every single trade to the Finanzamt.

>>24118668
Portugal

>>24120043

Just hire an aggressive law/accounting firm with preferably over 50+ lawyers and tell them to fuck up the retards at the Finanzamt. Tell them to be aggressive af to the Finanzamt and threaten to counter-sue them and to stop bothering you. The retards that work at the Finanzamt are the bottom of the barrel of "graduates" and earn fuck-all compared to people working at the private sector, so they are extremely less motivated to dig around your shit for a couple thousands of euros you made with crypto. They won't bother you much if they see you have an aggressive lawyer/tax firm that doesnt fuck around.

>>24117090
The bulk of my holdings (eth link btc) i will keep longer than a year but what about the shitcoin gains? There are bitcoin atms in austria do they have kyc and will the finanzamt find out if i cash out a few hundred a week?

>>24120043
But on taxfix they dont even ask you for the amounts if you held over a year

>>24117090
it works by never telling the state about it and only using paypal or other stuff. never transfer those funds to your Giro account

I use the Cryptotax site for my German taxes. Costs a bit of money but they do auto import from Wallet and exchanges and you can make manual corrections if the auto import is fucking up.

Gave the 300 page PDF to my tax advisor for 2018 at the beginning of this year and will do the same for 2019 in January.

So for no complains from the Finanzamt and I can trace every single tx in a PDF so it should be water tight.

>>24117279
And how do I proof that?

1 year is tax free

ofc, that assumes someknows what you did during that year ;)

>>24120264
Just want to add: They do apply FIFO automatically so it proofs if you held something for a year.

Also keep in mind that losses also "expire" after a year so you should sell crap you have to lessen your tax burden and hold onto your winnings.

And to >>24120251
Have fun ever cashing out.

>>24119658
Varied quite a lot but it was like 10k transactions or so in total. Obviously, a lot fewer trades but each trade can consist of many transactions. Also I was spread out over a whole bunch of exchanges and even the specialized tools that WInheller used wouldn't work 100%.

>>24119658
>Was the Winheller worth it?
Not sure yet. Likely I will come out clear and I hope not to pay too many taxes (fingers crossed for less than 200k or so). Most of my money I made tax-free in 2017-18 anyway and only very little in 2013,14,15,16 etc. but back then I didn't report properly because at the time I didn't even know all these laws, I was poor and nobody back then took crypto seriously anyway.

>>24120264
These days it's easy. Try to be compliant with the law with half of your exchanges going under but still coins on your wallet. This was the reality prior to 2016.

>>24120251
tell me all about it dude

>>24120251
>never telling the state about it and only using paypal or other stuff.
This will only work with less than 10k or 20k EUR. The second you try serious amounts you will be in a world of pain.

>>24120292
The Finanzamt has to prove that you didn't.

>>24117546
pay taxes on your rewards when cashed out right?
For example, I'm receiving 5 link a week on a 10k Link stack that I bought a year ago.
The principle and the Linkies slush into the same account
Every week I sell 5 Linkies into EUR.
I can technically argue I'm selling Linkies from a year ago, and be in the good good, right?

>>24120363
I had the same issue in 2018 with some exchanges not giving history or simply not existing anymore.
Used the incoming and outgoing from and to my wallet connected to that exchange and fabricated some reasonable trading tx's that matched the in and outflows. No way to prove otherwise and the number are still consistent.

>>24117090
>selling to link to feed muslims
ngmi

>>24120515
Yes. FIFO. Those links that FIRST came IN a year ago are the FIRST to leave OUT.

>>24120588
yeah, I get FIFO.
The alternative I was imagining was that receiving the linkies was a taxable event at whatever their current value is, and if I sell something that clearly looks like selling the interest, instead of part of the principle, they'd try to fuck me.

>>24120355
>cash out
pay online or with btc. if you are in it for le epic euro/deutschmark gainz you are completly wrong in the crypto scene

Why do you guys cry about taxes? Just get a tax account to worry about it if you truly "made it"

>>24120424

>world of pain

And how do you come clean after years of trading? Do you just say, dear finanzamt, I did not report any crypto for the last five years, but now I am coming clean, here are the transactions, have mercy on me?

>>24120722
Basically, hence why he did the "Selbstanzeige"

>>24120694

Because we didnt make it. We made peanuts, but don't want to pay 2xpeanuts in taxes and fines

>>24120722
germany is a dystopian 1984 world. cashing out into euros is a pure phantasy here. just do it online or pay with btc

>>24120770
This

>>24117090
ANOTHER GERMAN TAX THREAD!!!!

YOUR TOO POOR TO PAY TAXES FAGGOT

what do you guys think about switzerland or something like this?

my tl;dr undeerstanding, PLEASE correct if anything is wrong
>If you make under €600 in profit from trades, you don't even have to file it
>You have to hodl for exactly over a year to "cash out" and get treated like a return on capital
>Even trading one crypto for another counts as a taxable sale

>>24121130
But what if I "exchanged" crypto on an exchange. The tokens never really belonged to me so did I really trade one crypto for another?

>>24121130
Im still not sure about
>Even trading one crypto for another counts as a taxable sale
from my understanding and jurisdiction crypto is basically thought of as worthless trash.
>You can't pay with crypto, that doesn't make any sense.
therefore crypto to crypto is not a sale and shouldn't be a taxable event. I think Fiat to crypto is the thing here. i would even say the Finanzamt doesn't care if you start with btc end end up with xrp.

but we're talking about german law, German Rechtssicherheit is a myth

>>24121211
The same thing could be applied to all exchanges and stock trading platforms, and there you get taxed too.
So in a eye of the government it doesn't matter

>>24121127
you have to own more than 3 million Euros to open a bank account in Switzerland apparently...

>>24117546
why can i just sell it freely in the Netherlands?

That crypto to crypto stuff confuses me, sounds like bulllshit.
If I buy LINK and ETH and hold them for over a year I'm fine. If I buy LINK and ETH and pool them on Uniswap I receive UNI-V2 LP tokens, and if I convert them back after 1 year I'm not fine? wtf

>>24121130
You have to inform the Finanzamt about it regardless how much it is (officially), if you are lucky you get away without paying taxes. But due to the current debatte its not unlikely that you need to pay income tax on your gains.
>>24121843
You can, but you need to live there most of the year to avoid the Finanzamt. German citizen are always standing under the german law from a govermental standpoint here. You know that for example threaties with switzerland are in place, to keep germans from accumulating wealth in other nations?

>>24122055
How do I inform them when I normally don't file tax returns because I don't earn anything, do I have to file tax returns now exclusively just for having crypto?

Why do I have to report sold coins I held for more than a year when they are tax free?

>>24117090
just cash out into your bank account little by little, buy shit with your paypal on amazon and sell it at the fleemarket or ebay kleinanzeigen. tax niggas in germany dont give a fuck under 20-30k

>>24122187
Because then they count as assets like gold and real estate, and you have to report those

>>24122121
In practice yes, but I wouldnt do it unless I would really cash out into fiat.
>>24122187
Because germany, you dont want to trigger a silent alarm from your local bank or get any other shit. You can get your name unironically on too the lists of terrorist investigators, if you should suddenly recieve a lot of crypto money.

>>24120515
no, you have to pay taxes when you receive them

>>24122432
when you're a professional daytrader

>>24122587
private persons. just put them into your interest formular

Quite funny that of all the countries in the world it is mostly us Germans making the crypto tax threads. We're truly fucked. You never see crypto tax threads from Poland, France, Romania, UK etc.
Only people from the US with their IRS might be even more fucked than US.

>>24123418
I think its still the German mentality that we have to pay taxes, because its the rule.
Tax evasion not yet so much a national sport like in other EU countries and you would probably be fucked equally hard if you get caught doing dumb shit with your crypto earnings.

>>24122349
>>24122187
>>24122121
>>24122055
>You have to inform the Finanzamt about it regardless how much it is (officially)
All you have to do is to keep your records ready if they demand it from you. That's it. It'll probably a good thing to seek a tax accountant.